Vet recommends medical marijuana for pets in pain

gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
edited June 2013 in A Moving Train
I saw this and thought i would share. As everyone knows by now, I lost my dog a couple of months ago and before he died I had been wondering about medical marijuana for dogs. I was wondering if it would ease pain and stimulate his appetite. It would have been nice to see if it would have helped him. I think it is good that a vet is looking into this as a viable treatment option. It is a shame that he has to do it while he has no family that can potentially be targeted.

Vet recommends medical marijuana for pets in pain

http://news.yahoo.com/vet-recommends-me ... 22828.html

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Until she introduced "magic cheese" to her sick and aging bulldog, Laura Bugni-Daniel watched him suffer for two years. He'd spend his days lying down or throwing up.

Today, at age 12, he plays like a puppy through the day, his fur is soft and he sleeps at night, soothed not by magic, but by the dose of marijuana in that cheese.

Bugni-Daniel is part of a growing movement to give medical marijuana to pets in pain. Many urge caution until there's better science behind it. But stories abound about changes in sick and dying pets after they've been given cannabis — even though it isn't a proven pain killer for man or mutt, and it's an illicit drug under federal law despite being legal for people in 19 states and the District of Columbia.

Leading the charge is Los Angeles veterinarian Doug Kramer, 36, known as the "Vet Guru," who felt it was his duty to speak out while he has no family that would feel a verbal or financial backlash.

"I grew tired of euthanizing pets when I wasn't doing everything I could to make their lives better," he said. "I felt like I was letting them down."

Pot eased his Siberian husky's pain during her final weeks, after she had surgery to remove tumors. Not only did Nikita stop whimpering while using cannabis, but she started eating, gaining weight and meeting him at the door again.

It gave him six extra weeks with his dog before he had to euthanize her, he says. It wasn't a cure, but he thinks it freed her of pain and improved her last days.

Some other vets contacted said they share Kramer's view on pot, but they wouldn't talk on the record for fear of arrest or retaliation.

Kramer hasn't lost any clients over his view, but he was asked not to return to some of the clinics where he volunteered or relieved other vets because of concerns over the negative image his advocacy creates, he said.

Dr. Duncan Lascelles, a professor of surgery and pain management at North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine, thought about studying marijuana a decade ago. He didn't, not for lack of interest, but because the timing was wrong.

"I have been considering looking at that field again because I think it does have a lot of potential," he said.

He also figures those all-important grants needed for research will be available now.

Testing could take 10 years or more to be sure a pain killer will be effective and free of side effects, Lascelles said.

Kramer said it's unconscionable to let a decade pass, when millions of pets will die of illness and old age.

Vets who want traditional testing point to a study by two Colorado animal hospitals that compared the number of dogs treated for what appeared to be accidental marijuana overdoses between 2005 and 2010 with increases in the number of marijuana licenses issued. As registrations increased 146-fold, the number of sickened pets went up four-fold.

"Sometimes public sentiment and activity gets ahead of the scientific background and that can be dangerous," said Barry Kellogg, senior veterinary adviser to the Humane Society of the United States.

While two dogs with pot in their system died in the Colorado survey, hallucinogenic reactions may make dogs wobbly on their legs, raise their pulse and cause dribbly urine, said Dr. Karl Jandrey, an emergency and critical care vet at the Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital at the University of California, Davis.

But pot clinic managers say that a proper dose of the drug will prevent a bad reaction.

Jessica LeRoux of Twirling Hippy Confections in Denver made custom treats that helped extend the life of her last service dog, a black Lab-border collie mix named Thor.

"I got the 15th year out of that relationship because of the product I made for him," she said.

Old or ailing pets who take cannabis usually experience an immediate boost in appetite and relief from pain. That lets them get around, relieve themselves without help, sleep better and enjoy their families until age or disease catches up, LeRoux said in explaining how the cannabis helps pets.

At La Brea Compassionate Caregivers in Los Angeles, manager Megan Hanley recommends a drop of liquid marijuana extract marketed as Companion Cannabis for every 10 pounds of dog. It can be spread on cheese or bread.

"It's a revolutionary product and response to it has been tremendous in the last year," she said.

Bugni-Daniel, in Divide, Mont., is allowed to have four marijuana plants under state law for her medical needs. She turns that into extract for her and Rabito.

Marijuana has been like the fountain of youth for the American bulldog.

"It's really nice to see your sick pet, for his last moments or weeks or months, be happy and not real sick and dealing with needles and surgery," Bugni-Daniel said.


dde6a887d8b3ec12330f6a706700f337.jpg
This Feb. 8, 2013 photo released by Vet Guru Inc., shows Dr. Douglas Kramer and his dog Mason inside his mobile surgical truck during an application of cannabis oil to the skin of Mason who had already undergone multiple surgeries to remove cancerous growths. Stories abound about changes in sick and dying pets after they've been given marijuana. There is a growing movement, led by Los Angeles veterinarian Doug Kramer, to make it more widely available. Others, however, urge caution until there's better science behind it.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
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Comments

  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,575
    Thanks for the info and sorry about your loss , i too have a senior dog she had a growth removed last yr and now i spoted a new one on one of her front leg and it will have to be removed i'm sure of it ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    Thanks for the info and sorry about your loss , i too have a senior dog she had a growth removed last yr and now i spoted a new one on one of her front leg and it will have to be removed i'm sure of it ...
    sorry to hear about your dog. hopefully she won't have to have any more surgery.

    i am pretty much over the loss, but if i had to do it all over again i would have asked my vet about medical marijuana. my vet was considered "progressive" and was on the cutting edge of things in a lot of ways, but fuck, i live in missouri. medical marijuana would never be a go here, even for pets.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • BinauralJamBinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    Do shotguns work?
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Do shotguns work?
    Oh man, I haven't given/received one of those in ages.

    gimme, once again, I'm so sorry about your dog and jose, I hope yours will get through OK.

    Despite our occasional blowing of potsmoke to our cats - they seem to dig it and chill out - I never thought about it in the medicinal sense for them, for any animal.

    I hope this vet can continue to do good and spread the word. Yet another wonderful use for the demon weed!
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    I would say it seems like a fine idea to me, except that I think it would make a lot of pets scared to be high, which isn't good. But hey, try it once to check if it freaks them out, and if not, great. What I want to know is why the vet thought it was better to give pot to his dog for 3 weeks while it was dying instead of euthanizing. That makes no sense. Sure the pot can help, but it doesn't make pain disappear. It probably just makes the patient stoned enough to care about the pain less. To me, that's not really doing a dog too many favours if it's on its death bed anyway. Dogs don't look at the calendar and think "if I can get 3 more weeks of consciousness that's worth the suffering." It would have been more humane to put him down. I think this vet is a bit cracked.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Everyone with a pet would be off to the vet as quickly as possible if this becomes law.
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,575
    Thanks for the info and sorry about your loss , i too have a senior dog she had a growth removed last yr and now i spoted a new one on one of her front leg and it will have to be removed i'm sure of it ...
    sorry to hear about your dog. hopefully she won't have to have any more surgery.

    i am pretty much over the loss, but if i had to do it all over again i would have asked my vet about medical marijuana. my vet was considered "progressive" and was on the cutting edge of things in a lot of ways, but fuck, i live in missouri. medical marijuana would never be a go here, even for pets.

    Yeah she had it surgically removed last yr and when i wen't back for a routine check up we found the other growth i've kept an eye on it but i know for sure it has gotten bigger and i guess when the time comes if i know she is suffering i would def ask about such a treatment ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    I would say it seems like a fine idea to me, except that I think it would make a lot of pets scared to be high, which isn't good. But hey, try it once to check if it freaks them out, and if not, great. What I want to know is why the vet thought it was better to give pot to his dog for 3 weeks while it was dying instead of euthanizing. That makes no sense. Sure the pot can help, but it doesn't make pain disappear. It probably just makes the patient stoned enough to care about the pain less. To me, that's not really doing a dog too many favours if it's on its death bed anyway. Dogs don't look at the calendar and think "if I can get 3 more weeks of consciousness that's worth the suffering." It would have been more humane to put him down. I think this vet is a bit cracked.
    But, how often do we do whatever we can to make our pets as comfortable as possible before their end? Assuming they're not in great pain or anything, but knowing they're on their way out?

    I think any humane animal owner / lover wouldn't unnecessarily prolong the life of their pet for their own benefit. If we're in tune and responsible and compassionate, we know when their time has come.

    I think this is just about making it a little easier on the animal.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    hedonist wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    I would say it seems like a fine idea to me, except that I think it would make a lot of pets scared to be high, which isn't good. But hey, try it once to check if it freaks them out, and if not, great. What I want to know is why the vet thought it was better to give pot to his dog for 3 weeks while it was dying instead of euthanizing. That makes no sense. Sure the pot can help, but it doesn't make pain disappear. It probably just makes the patient stoned enough to care about the pain less. To me, that's not really doing a dog too many favours if it's on its death bed anyway. Dogs don't look at the calendar and think "if I can get 3 more weeks of consciousness that's worth the suffering." It would have been more humane to put him down. I think this vet is a bit cracked.
    But, how often do we do whatever we can to make our pets as comfortable as possible before their end? Assuming they're not in great pain or anything, but knowing they're on their way out?

    I think any humane animal owner / lover wouldn't unnecessarily prolong the life of their pet for their own benefit. If we're in tune and responsible and compassionate, we know when their time has come.

    I think this is just about making it a little easier on the animal.
    If I knew my pet was in pain and dying (no hope of recovery), I would put it out of its misery. I wouldn't feel comfortable deciding that it's not in ENOUGH pain YET. Animals are usually in a LOT more pain than we think when they're on their way out, because they don't express pain like we do and suffer in silence for the most part, and most pet owners wait until they start displaying more obvious signs of discomfort. But unfortunately, once they get to that point, they have actually been in pain for a long time, and now its simply become unbearable even for them. I would never feed my dog weed for 3 weeks to try and ease pain just because I'm not ready to let go yet. If I think my dying pet is in enough pain to need weed, then the humane thing to do is end it. Not get them high. But that is just my opinion of course.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    hedonist wrote:
    But, how often do we do whatever we can to make our pets as comfortable as possible before their end? Assuming they're not in great pain or anything, but knowing they're on their way out?

    I think any humane animal owner / lover wouldn't unnecessarily prolong the life of their pet for their own benefit. If we're in tune and responsible and compassionate, we know when their time has come.

    I think this is just about making it a little easier on the animal.
    If I knew my pet was in pain and dying (no hope of recovery), I would put it out of its misery. I wouldn't feel comfortable deciding that it's not in ENOUGH pain YET. Animals are usually in a LOT more pain than we think when they're on their way out, because they don't express pain like we do and suffer in silence for the most part, and most pet owners wait until they start displaying more obvious signs of discomfort. But unfortunately, once they get to that point, they have actually been in pain for a long time, and now its simply become unbearable even for them. I would never feed my dog weed for 3 weeks to try and ease pain just because I'm not ready to let go yet. If I think my dying pet is in enough pain to need weed, then the humane thing to do is end it. Not get them high. But that is just my opinion of course.
    No no, I wasn't saying it should reach X level of pain.

    I just think (at least, it's been my limited experience) that we know, sense, when euthanizing is the right or humane thing to do. I'm the first to admit I can be selfish, but never EVER to that degree.
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    my sasquatch has the need for medical grass

    thank you
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • oceaninmyeyesoceaninmyeyes Posts: 4,646
    So please pardon me, these pigs aren't pets, and they aren't in pain, but the effects are interesting. http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/05/27/mar ... chies-too/ 20-30 pound weight gain in 4 months! If you had a pet that didn't want to eat for some reason, it could be helpful. It is one reason marijuana is recommended for cancer patients.
    And the sun it may be shining . . . but there's an ocean in my eyes
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,055
    The idea certainly looks like one worth further research- one I would surely be open to. I'd want to know more about the affects on the animal and maybe wanting more info about how likely it is an animal would get anxious on marijuana that way people sometimes do. I suppose the dosage would be the main thing to be careful of- and the strain because some are more potent, especially these days.

    I'm glad your doing better, gimme. It can take a long time to get over losing a dog. They become a part of your life, your family. I've been pretty much totally in tears for days every time I've lost a pet- cat, dog, rat, even my toad when I was a kid. The memories stay sweet though, always.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    When o was much younger and dumber I blew a bunch of pot smoke directly in my cat's face once, and she got dopey and stupid, but she didn't seem upset ... :think:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    There are plenty of other viable pain meds without going down this route.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • like what? can you elaborate please as to which medications have the same effect as cannabis? also, what's wrong with going this route?



    know1 wrote:
    There are plenty of other viable pain meds without going down this route.
    if you think what I believe is stupid, bizarre, ridiculous or outrageous.....it's ok, I think I had a brain tumor when I wrote that.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    like what? can you elaborate please as to which medications have the same effect as cannabis? also, what's wrong with going this route?



    know1 wrote:
    There are plenty of other viable pain meds without going down this route.

    There are plenty of them that are actually designed for pain reduction. That's not really pot's main gig.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    know1 wrote:
    like what? can you elaborate please as to which medications have the same effect as cannabis? also, what's wrong with going this route?



    know1 wrote:
    There are plenty of other viable pain meds without going down this route.

    There are plenty of them that are actually designed for pain reduction. That's not really pot's main gig.
    As someone who uses it for both recreational and physical relief, I'll take pot over vicodin and the like any day. Those side effects can be a bitch!
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,055
    know1 wrote:
    like what? can you elaborate please as to which medications have the same effect as cannabis? also, what's wrong with going this route?



    know1 wrote:
    There are plenty of other viable pain meds without going down this route.

    There are plenty of them that are actually designed for pain reduction. That's not really pot's main gig.
    hedonist wrote:
    As someone who uses it for both recreational and physical relief, I'll take pot over vicodin and the like any day. Those side effects can be a bitch!

    I agree. I can't tolerate Pharmaceutical pain meds- the side affects are too harsh. Ibuprofen I can tolerate but even taking that gives me cause for concern.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • BinauralJamBinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    My bulldog is on Novox (which is the generic for rimadyl) for his aging joints, is he misses a single dose i see the difference in the way he moves.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    know1 wrote:
    like what? can you elaborate please as to which medications have the same effect as cannabis? also, what's wrong with going this route?



    know1 wrote:
    There are plenty of other viable pain meds without going down this route.

    There are plenty of them that are actually designed for pain reduction. That's not really pot's main gig.
    Supposedly some people think it works to control pain... but I don't see it. I get using it when you need to keep your appetite up completely (fucking munchies :fp: ), but when I'm in pain with an injury and I get high, the pain actually intensifies because my being stoned makes me overthink the pain and I focus into it, and even trip out on the pain a little, which sucks. That is the exact opposite of what I want to happen. Everyone's different, so I'm sure others are distracted from their pain or whatever when they're high, but I definitely would NOT consider weed a reliable medical treatment for pain.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Supposedly some people think it works to control pain... but I don't see it. I get using it when you need to keep your appetite up completely (fucking munchies :fp: ), but when I'm in pain with an injury and I get high, the pain actually intensifies because my being stoned makes me overthink the pain and I focus into it, and even trip out on the pain a little, which sucks. That is the exact opposite of what I want to happen. Everyone's different, so I'm sure others are distracted from their pain or whatever when they're high, but I definitely would NOT consider weed a reliable medical treatment for pain.
    It depends on what KIND of pain - my back, cramps, migraines (and I actually do use other meds from time to time).

    I get the overthinking thing though :P
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Not too sure how I feel about this. Not from a moral point of view but what do we really know about the dog's 'psyche'? Maybe it dulls pain, but does the 'high' have the same effect on the dog than it would a human (from a psychological point of view)? I don't think anyone can really say. And what happens if the dog has a little bit of a freak out? Does one hold his paw saying 'don't worry.. it's OK'? Are we just projecting our human ideal of a high to an animal? Or does it affect the biochemical pathways in the same way?

    I'm sure the biology/physical side is covered but I'm wondering about the psychological side of things.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    redrock wrote:
    Not too sure how I feel about this. Not from a moral point of view but what do we really know about the dog's 'psyche'? Maybe it dulls pain, but does the 'high' have the same effect on the dog than it would a human (from a psychological point of view)? I don't think anyone can really say. And what happens if the dog has a little bit of a freak out? Does one hold his paw saying 'don't worry.. it's OK'? Are we just projecting our human ideal of a high to an animal? Or does it affect the biochemical pathways in the same way?

    I'm sure the biology/physical side is covered but I'm wondering about the psychological side of things.
    I totally think we're just projecting onto our pets, especially in this scenario. I don't think anyone should ever give mind altering recreational drugs to a dog. What, are we going to get our dogs drunk too? :fp: There is no way a dog would enjoy being high around the clock. I think this is all just crazy talk, frankly.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • doctors and scientists around the world have shown that marijuana is medicine. it's a proven fact. that being said, it's not recreational. I also don't get the mind altering statement. what the hell does that even mean? it amazes me that people actually think that man made chemical pills are safer than a plant. crazy talk indeed.
    if you think what I believe is stupid, bizarre, ridiculous or outrageous.....it's ok, I think I had a brain tumor when I wrote that.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    doctors and scientists around the world have shown that marijuana is medicine. it's a proven fact. that being said, it's not recreational. I also don't get the mind altering statement. what the hell does that even mean? it amazes me that people actually think that man made chemical pills are safer than a plant. crazy talk indeed.
    Sure, if they want to call it medicine, great. But it's not an effective pain medicine as far as I'm concerned. If it actually increases my sense of pain (and others have said the same thing about it), then it's not an effective pain medicine. At best, it's hit and miss.
    Also, I'm not sure what YOU mean by suggesting that pot isn't recreational or that ... what? That it doesn't alter your thinking?? I'm not sure what you're getting at. When I smoke weed, I get enjoyably high, and later I get hungry and sleepy. That's it. My pain, if I happen to have any, gets worse and harder to stand.
    Finally, did anyone say that chemical pills are safer generally?? No. Some are just saying that getting a dog high, even if we THINK it MIGHT reduce their pain (but have NO way of knowing that at all, nor do we know whether being high is preferable to the pain for them if it does happen to reduce their pain), is probably not a good idea.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    all pain medication is mind altering
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    norm wrote:
    all pain medication is mind altering
    Well, technically. But I don't get high off of extra strength Advil.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    oh shit, i thought we were talking about real pain meds :lol:

    i'm sorry weed hasn't worked on your pain allie, but for me and millions of others it's the only thing keeping us going...and if can help dogs or cats then they should have it too...as for the "hallucinations" well, i've seen my dog on "legal" pain meds and just by looking at him, i don't think the weed would be any different :lol::D
  • WobbieWobbie Posts: 30,178
    norm wrote:
    but for me and millions of others it's the only thing keeping us going...

    that's your secret, huh? :? :lol:
    If I had known then what I know now...

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