the divine wind

chadwick

http://youtu.be/3Vzz_QUl-7Y
1/4

http://youtu.be/SRRjG9V4t1k
2/4

http://youtu.be/yxss-MGLDPk
3/4

http://youtu.be/P6ClLyVHF6g
4/4

can we discuss this? warning. these videos are not mild. WWII Japanese air force, ("gods" as they are called) the kamikazes. i respect these pilots. how is it any different than today's suicide bombers that i do not respect? maybe it is because grandpa was over there fighting too? i wish i understood

war is so fucking ridiculous

redrock

Need to find a bit more time to watch the videos Chadwick.

"i respect these pilots. how is it any different than today's suicide bombers that i do not respect? " Insane question to ponder, but I'm thinking you are not the only one like this. Was it because it was during an 'obvious' war? Maybe because we perceive these suicide bombers doing this for 'honour and country' and not religion as most middle eastern suicide bombers are perceived to be doing this.....

Food for thought...

chadwick

redrock wrote:

Need to find a bit more time to watch the videos Chadwick.

"i respect these pilots. how is it any different than today's suicide bombers that i do not respect? " Insane question to ponder, but I'm thinking you are not the only one like this. Was it because it was during an 'obvious' war? Maybe because we perceive these suicide bombers doing this for 'honour and country' and not religion as most middle eastern suicide bombers are perceived to be doing this.....

Food for thought...

thank you for helping me understand this. i believe you are on to something. thank you

Jason P

I've always contended they were brainwashed nuts. But did you know the land of the rising sun had man-piloted suicide torpedoes?



The very first Kaiten was nothing much more than a Type 93 torpedo engine compartment attached to a cylinder that would become the pilot's compartment with trimming ballast in place of the warhead and other electronics and hydraulics. The torpedo's pneumatic gyroscope was replaced by an electric model and controls were linked up to give the pilot full control of the weapon.

Early designs allowed the pilot to escape after the final acceleration toward the target. There is no record of any pilot attempting to escape or intending to do so, and this provision was dropped from later Kaitens, so that, once inside, the pilot could not unlock the hatches. The Kaiten was fitted with a self-destruct control, intended for use if an attack failed or the impact fuse failed

Kaiten pilots were all men aged between 18 and about 26. In the event of their being killed in action, their families were promised a ¥10000 reward. It is thought[by whom?] that because of the wartime economy and political climate there was often little choice but to volunteer for Kaiten (or other suicide) duty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiten

How would you have liked that assignment?

Hey Jason! The good news is you've been promoted to Captain. However, there is some bad news as well ...

Pjzepp67

The question in my head that I can't seem to shake is, is it time and distance and a level of disconnetion that affords us the freedom to look upon these guys with respect; at the time did our forebears look upon them with respect or with the detestation that we reserve for the modern day protagonists.
This begs the follow up question, will we, or our future generations look back through time upon the 9/11 attackers et all with respect...I know Irish terrorists are now looked upon in a more favourable light over here in the UK.

chadwick

Jason P wrote:

I've always contended they were brainwashed nuts. But did you know the land of the rising sun had man-piloted suicide torpedoes?



The very first Kaiten was nothing much more than a Type 93 torpedo engine compartment attached to a cylinder that would become the pilot's compartment with trimming ballast in place of the warhead and other electronics and hydraulics. The torpedo's pneumatic gyroscope was replaced by an electric model and controls were linked up to give the pilot full control of the weapon.

Early designs allowed the pilot to escape after the final acceleration toward the target. There is no record of any pilot attempting to escape or intending to do so, and this provision was dropped from later Kaitens, so that, once inside, the pilot could not unlock the hatches. The Kaiten was fitted with a self-destruct control, intended for use if an attack failed or the impact fuse failed

Kaiten pilots were all men aged between 18 and about 26. In the event of their being killed in action, their families were promised a ¥10000 reward. It is thought[by whom?] that because of the wartime economy and political climate there was often little choice but to volunteer for Kaiten (or other suicide) duty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiten

How would you have liked that assignment?

Hey Jason! The good news is you've been promoted to Captain. However, there is some bad news as well ...

yes i knew of suicide subs/torpedoes. those dudes are nuts but it is their belief system

Jason P

chadwick wrote:

yes i knew of suicide subs/torpedoes. those dudes are nuts but it is their belief system

Was their belief system. They seem pretty sane now with the exception of their TV shows.

And I'm not sure how strong a belief system it is if it requires self-destruct detonators or not enough fuel to get back to the mainland.

chadwick

they do not look at suicide same as we do. base of mt. Fuji... on like a mother
http://youtu.be/4FDSdg09df8

it is not a kamikaze but still some freaky shit

redrock

It's a completely different mindset, way of thinking, priorities than in the western world. Always has been through history and continues nowadays.

Bushido is still alive and well - more so when they are 'threatened' or have taken a knock and they are down, etc.

riotgrl

redrock wrote:

It's a completely different mindset, way of thinking, priorities than in the western world. Always has been through history and continues nowadays.

Bushido is still alive and well - more so when they are 'threatened' or have taken a knock and they are down, etc.

Interesting thought about east v. west. I wonder if closer ties to religion play a part in today's terrorism while a majority of Americans are becoming more secular; maybe it lessens the extremism to be further removed from religion? Just a random thought.

Bronx Bombers

Pjzepp67 wrote:

This begs the follow up question, will we, or our future generations look back through time upon the 9/11 attackers et all with respect...

NOT A FUCKING CHANCE :fp:

Cosmo

chadwick wrote:

WWII Japanese air force, ("gods" as they are called) the kamikazes. i respect these pilots. how is it any different than today's suicide bombers that i do not respect? maybe it is because grandpa was over there fighting too? i wish i understood

war is so fucking ridiculous

...
These were the original 'Smart Bombs'... but instead of a silicone chip guiding the missile, it was the mind of a man guiding it.
And it was/is different. Pilots were going after U.S. military assets, specifically, its carrier fleet. Japan knew they were done. Their pilots would never make it back to base after dropping their ordinances because of the superior U.S. aircraft and pilots. Often times, these Kamikazee pilots were untrainned pilots who only knew how to steer the plane.
Today's suicide bomber is tasked to carry out missions to terrorize civilians so that country's political leaders will spend billions trying to prevent them. They are more political, than anything else.

gimmesometruth27

i watched all 4 parts.

i can not wrap my head around someone giving their life for a lost cause like that.

a lot of those guys were seasoned pilots. the resources of money spent to build planes and the cost of the human lives lost are staggering to me. a country can replace planes relatively easily, but you can not just replace great pilots. it takes time to train them and get them to become seasoned pilots.

someone mentioned respecting the 9/11 bombers. i don't respect them, but it is very difficult to not be astounded that they actually pulled it off.

chadwick

wwii (and other wars) footage is so fucking brutal. my grandpa's nightmares are alive & well as i dwell on his stories every single day. i can't get out of them. i am completely hostage & humbled by them & grandpa's huge fucking balls of bravery; Harold deserves the congressional medal of honor. my grandpa is a fucking superhero if a superhero kills like we do

and here i am trying to be brave & stuff. i can't compete but i sure as shit aspire to be as awesome as he was but i fall short but i try. the greatest generation as they're called had this insane work ethic. Harold never ever missed a single day of work until he was nearly dying. 30 some years and never missed a single day.

the war done something to those guys. you never ever in a billion years give up no fucking matter what. pain & agony are your friends.

i try but i fall short

Last-12-Exit

In my younger days, I could rationalize in my head why war was necessary. (The first iraqi war was my only reference until 9/11). Now, not so much. Even after we are attacked, it seems unnecessary.


That being said, I have no respect for suicide bombers. I don't care what war it was or what year it was. It was a chicken shit way to fight a war then as it is now.

hedonist

Last-12-Exit wrote:

In my younger days, I could rationalize in my head why war was necessary. (The first iraqi war was my only reference until 9/11). Now, not so much. Even after we are attacked, it seems unnecessary.


That being said, I have no respect for suicide bombers. I don't care what war it was or what year it was. It was a chicken shit way to fight a war then as it is now.

Granted my knowledge on this is somewhat limited, but I agree with the bolded part. It's no different than strapping a bomb to yourself, strolling into a cafe or club or school or barracks, and detonating it along with yourself.

As to war being necessary, I have mixed feelings. I'm thankful for those who fought (my dad among them along with the [grand]parent of others here) to liberate those from their intended extermination, from their captivity, from god knows how many horrors they suffered in camps and in the ghettos.

chadwick - pain and agony may have been those soldiers' friends (or part of what spurred them), but I'd bet that perseverance, the will to live and to do what's right, even to make it home in one piece to those they loved, were along for the ride too.

Cosmo

Last-12-Exit wrote:

That being said, I have no respect for suicide bombers. I don't care what war it was or what year it was. It was a chicken shit way to fight a war then as it is now.

...
I sort of get the sentiment... but, what about our use of drones? Is that chicken-shit?
Is the only reason why a Kamikazee pilot in a Mitsubishi Zero is chicken-shit because the plane was not originally intended for that use? I mean, they WERE soldiers flying those things. We call dying in war 'The Ultimate Sacrifice for our nation'... don't we? Don't they?
...
Anyway, not arguing, just trying to add some perspective.
Snipers were considered chickenshit when the Germans deployed them in WWI. You were supposed to form battle lines and fire upon enemy ranks from those lines.
Early colonists used terrorist tactics by adopting methods used by Native Ameicans to hit British troops outside the normal tactics of warfare in 1772.

blueandwhite

I have more respect for a kamikaze pilot than I do for the pilot of an unmanned drone considering that a kamikaze pilot had to forfeit their life to complete their mission. Honestly, what risk does the pilot of a drone assume? In many ways, the kamikaze pilot was an early precursor to guided ballistic weaponry. We now have technology that achieves the same results. How is the use of guided missiles or drones any less cowardly than what the Japanese were doing during WWII?

I'm also not sure I would compare a suicide bomber to a kamikaze pilot. Most suicide bombers seem to focus on inflicting collateral damage against unarmed civilians whereas kamikaze attacks seem to have been directed primarily at military targets.

Last-12-Exit

Cosmo wrote:

Last-12-Exit wrote:

That being said, I have no respect for suicide bombers. I don't care what war it was or what year it was. It was a chicken shit way to fight a war then as it is now.

...
I sort of get the sentiment... but, what about our use of drones? Is that chicken-shit?
Is the only reason why a Kamikazee pilot in a Mitsubishi Zero is chicken-shit because the plane was not originally intended for that use? I mean, they WERE soldiers flying those things. We call dying in war 'The Ultimate Sacrifice for our nation'... don't we? Don't they?
...
Anyway, not arguing, just trying to add some perspective.
Snipers were considered chickenshit when the Germans deployed them in WWI. You were supposed to form battle lines and fire upon enemy ranks from those lines.
Early colonists used terrorist tactics by adopting methods used by Native Ameicans to hit British troops outside the normal tactics of warfare in 1772.

Fair point. I really don't have a good response for that other than I'd rather see a drone bomb an enemy rather than risking an American pilots life.

Godfather.

the divine wind ?.......who farted ? :shifty:







Godfather.

even flow - question mark

chadwick wrote:

http://youtu.be/3Vzz_QUl-7Y
1/4

http://youtu.be/SRRjG9V4t1k
2/4

http://youtu.be/yxss-MGLDPk
3/4

http://youtu.be/P6ClLyVHF6g
4/4

can we discuss this? warning. these videos are not mild. WWII Japanese air force, ("gods" as they are called) the kamikazes. i respect these pilots. how is it any different than today's suicide bombers that i do not respect? maybe it is because grandpa was over there fighting too? i wish i understood

war is so fucking ridiculous

So what would you or anybody else do if your country was militarily attacked and you were in their position? Just crash into the sea?