I don't think Bill Maher is always on point, but I don't think he's wrong to say that Islam is currently creating more problems than other religions.
And Muslims certainly don't have the moral high ground over Israel. You'd be much better off growing up in Tel Aviv than in Riyadh or Tehran, particularly if you were born female.
But ultimately, all humans are savage beasts and we don't need religion to act out our savage impulses. Religion just helps create a supposedly righteous cause for the ways in which we oppress each other.
Really, Tel Aviv? Recent articles in haaretz have had men hurling rocks at women at the western wall, that is jewish men hurling rocks at jewish women. Also, women in Jerusalem get attacked the orthodox jews there if they show so much as an ankle. Women get spat on and threatened. If you are an African Jew you get forcibly sterilized.
For Muslim and Christians living in the OPT and israel, as can be imagined are treated worse. Children are arrested and raped with various objects.... Israel has to be the worst offender for human rights anywhere. Moral ground? Hah...not a foot to stand on. Tel Aviv, a bastion for feminism and human rights...what a joke. You should go live there, great place. Hope you are not black or a woman or Muslim or Christian, other than that, great place.
I don't think Bill Maher is always on point, but I don't think he's wrong to say that Islam is currently creating more problems than other religions.
And Muslims certainly don't have the moral high ground over Israel. You'd be much better off growing up in Tel Aviv than in Riyadh or Tehran, particularly if you were born female.
But ultimately, all humans are savage beasts and we don't need religion to act out our savage impulses. Religion just helps create a supposedly righteous cause for the ways in which we oppress each other.
Really, Tel Aviv? Recent articles in haaretz have had men hurling rocks at women at the western wall, that is jewish men hurling rocks at jewish women. Also, women in Jerusalem get attacked the orthodox jews there if they show so much as an ankle. Women get spat on and threatened. If you are an African Jew you get forcibly sterilized.
For Muslim and Christians living in the OPT and israel, as can be imagined are treated worse. Children are arrested and raped with various objects.... Israel has to be the worst offender for human rights anywhere. Moral ground? Hah...not a foot to stand on. Tel Aviv, a bastion for feminism and human rights...what a joke. You should go live there, great place. Hope you are not black or a woman or Muslim or Christian, other than that, great place.
salaam alaikum......
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327187,00.html
Two months into an arranged marriage, Fozia Sadiq, a young Pakistani immigrant, found herself trapped in the suburbs of Dallas, Texas, with a violent husband.She says he routinely beat her and intimidated her into never going anywhere in public without him.
http://www.iqrasense.com/muslim-character/muslim-women-and-cases-of-domestic-abuse.html
A recent article in the New York Times highlighted domestic violence and other social issues faced by Muslim sisters in the US.
Unfortunately, such domestic abuse issues are quite common in Muslim households. The domestic issues that Muslim women face worldwide include husbands striking their wives (even when they are pregnant), family violence through marital discord, suicide, depression, humiliation, and other emotional illnesses that result from such treatment, and much more.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=98
Throughout the Muslim world, women are treated as second-class citizens who are inferior to men in terms of intelligence, morals, and faith. This arrangement derives from the Qur'an itself, which states unambiguously: “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other” (Qur'an 4:34).
Your post does not refute a single word I wrote, as a matter of fact, if you look further into some of the links you provided, ( try scrolling down) you would find Islamic praise of women.
Anyway, not to derail Byrnzie's thread any further, I think Glenn Greenwald did an amazing job with another troll, Bill Maher. I love a lot of what he says in his articles, his twitter, his interviews, etc.
Muslim leaders subjugate their own people, and they've created a centuries old culture of subjugation. Those who grow up in that culture may not even realize they've been subjugated even when they reach old age.
That's a bit of a generalization. You even admitted yourself in the next breath that you know nothing about the Muslim culture.
I wonder if we in the West - who regard ourselves as so free and independent - could even consider for one second that we've been indoctrinated into accepting an unsustainable, and essentially destructive and absurd way of life, which teaches us that spending a lifetime collecting shit we don't need is the sole purpose of our existence on this Earth? No, of course not. We're all free to choose the lives we want, right? We feel no constraints by the mighty $$ whatsoever, and we go to work for somebody else every day because we want to, and because some of us love it.
In the meantime, 77% of Americans regard themselves as Christians - a religion that teaches Original Sin, that the fires of Hell await all unbelievers, and the Earth is ours to Plunder as we see fit.
Strange, but those who grow up in that culture may not even realize they've been subjugated even when they reach old age.
We are human, and as such it s inherent wevare selfish. This selfishness exists all over the world. It's not inherently a bad thing either. It's what leads to innovation and progress. I for one would prefer to live nw than anytime in the past
Muslim leaders subjugate their own people, and they've created a centuries old culture of subjugation. Those who grow up in that culture may not even realize they've been subjugated even when they reach old age.
That's a bit of a generalization. You even admitted yourself in the next breath that you know nothing about the Muslim culture.
I wonder if we in the West - who regard ourselves as so free and independent - could even consider for one second that we've been indoctrinated into accepting an unsustainable, and essentially destructive and absurd way of life, which teaches us that spending a lifetime collecting shit we don't need is the sole purpose of our existence on this Earth? No, of course not. We're all free to choose the lives we want, right? We feel no constraints by the mighty $$ whatsoever, and we go to work for somebody else every day because we want to, and because some of us love it.
In the meantime, 77% of Americans regard themselves as Christians - a religion that teaches Original Sin, that the fires of Hell await all unbelievers, and the Earth is ours to Plunder as we see fit.
Strange, but those who grow up in that culture may not even realize they've been subjugated even when they reach old age.
I didn't say I know nothing about the culture... only that I have no firsthand experience in it (though I wish I did and hope I will)... some in my family have been to Egypt and Turkey... I have studied the culture pretty well... I think it's fair to say I know much more about it than the average Westerner.
And I completely agree with your condemnations of Western culture.
I don't think Bill Maher is always on point, but I don't think he's wrong to say that Islam is currently creating more problems than other religions.
And Muslims certainly don't have the moral high ground over Israel. You'd be much better off growing up in Tel Aviv than in Riyadh or Tehran, particularly if you were born female.
But ultimately, all humans are savage beasts and we don't need religion to act out our savage impulses. Religion just helps create a supposedly righteous cause for the ways in which we oppress each other.
Really, Tel Aviv? Recent articles in haaretz have had men hurling rocks at women at the western wall, that is jewish men hurling rocks at jewish women. Also, women in Jerusalem get attacked the orthodox jews there if they show so much as an ankle. Women get spat on and threatened. If you are an African Jew you get forcibly sterilized.
For Muslim and Christians living in the OPT and israel, as can be imagined are treated worse. Children are arrested and raped with various objects.... Israel has to be the worst offender for human rights anywhere. Moral ground? Hah...not a foot to stand on. Tel Aviv, a bastion for feminism and human rights...what a joke. You should go live there, great place. Hope you are not black or a woman or Muslim or Christian, other than that, great place.
Well, I respect Haaretz and what they report is assuredly true. But I'm also sure Haaretz would report more frequently about such abuses if they were reporting from Riyadh or Tehran or from a Taliban-occupied city.
And there is no doubt that Palestinians are being horribly oppressed by Israel. Israelis are reacting to the violence of Muslims against innocents. Religion inspired all of this horrible oppression and violence.
My city of Boston was living peacefully until two Muslims decided to ruin it.
In the meantime, 77% of Americans regard themselves as Christians - a religion that teaches Original Sin, that the fires of Hell await all unbelievers, and the Earth is ours to Plunder as we see fit.
Strange, but those who grow up in that culture may not even realize they've been subjugated even when they reach old age.
I consider myself Christian and go to church once, maybe twice a year.
No way in hell I'm getting up at 4 am to say a prayer. Only thing I get up at 4 am is if the tornado sirens are going off.
Whether we need stuff or not, we spend our lives collecting stuff we want. We are free to collect as much or as little as we want. It is each individual's choice and they are free to make it on their own.
http://www.nirandfar.com/2013/05/think- ... again.html
'...Consider the famous Pepsi Challenge, which researchers have recreated in the lab on several occasions. Studies reveal that when people are asked to do a blind taste test of Coke versus Pepsi they split equally, showing little measurable preference. However, if people are asked to evaluate the drinks knowing the brand name, they disproportionately prefer Coke.
But here’s where the research gets interesting. When a study compared preference for Coke to an unidentified cola, Coke was overwhelmingly chosen. However, unbeknownst to the taster, sometimes the other cola was not just some drink, it too was Coke. Despite tasting two identical drinks, the Coke brand affected the flavor of the sample. MRI scans of the testers brains confirmed they had actually experienced the two drinks differently.
Similar effects have been observed with other factors, which should not objectively affect taste. For example, wine you believe is expensive really does taste better. After all, isn’t expensive wine supposed to taste better? It better if you just shelled out an ungodly sum on a bottle. Here again, the brain’s ability to perceive the world the way it expects it to be kicks into high gear.
Just as the expectation of a placebo’s effect informs how we perceive physical symptoms, associations create connections between things, which may or may not be related. Marketers create these associations to ensure consumers choose their products out of habit, as well as enjoy them more once they do.'
Whether we need stuff or not, we spend our lives collecting stuff we want. We are free to collect as much or as little as we want. It is each individual's choice and they are free to make it on their own.
http://www.nirandfar.com/2013/05/think- ... again.html
'...Consider the famous Pepsi Challenge, which researchers have recreated in the lab on several occasions. Studies reveal that when people are asked to do a blind taste test of Coke versus Pepsi they split equally, showing little measurable preference. However, if people are asked to evaluate the drinks knowing the brand name, they disproportionately prefer Coke.
But here’s where the research gets interesting. When a study compared preference for Coke to an unidentified cola, Coke was overwhelmingly chosen. However, unbeknownst to the taster, sometimes the other cola was not just some drink, it too was Coke. Despite tasting two identical drinks, the Coke brand affected the flavor of the sample. MRI scans of the testers brains confirmed they had actually experienced the two drinks differently.
Similar effects have been observed with other factors, which should not objectively affect taste. For example, wine you believe is expensive really does taste better. After all, isn’t expensive wine supposed to taste better? It better if you just shelled out an ungodly sum on a bottle. Here again, the brain’s ability to perceive the world the way it expects it to be kicks into high gear.
Just as the expectation of a placebo’s effect informs how we perceive physical symptoms, associations create connections between things, which may or may not be related. Marketers create these associations to ensure consumers choose their products out of habit, as well as enjoy them more once they do.'
I don't think it is a surprise that people often choose products they are familiar and comfortable with. Especially in a taste test where both choices are the same but only one is labeled.
As I said, we are all free to make our own choices.
You think Muslim women feel themselves to be oppressed?
Really?
You have some great insight and points on Israel and Palestine. But this one you went off the deep end.
They are brought up in a culture that makes them think this is normal and ok. That doesn't make it right.
Don't bother man. He is fully convinced that Muslim women have all the freedom anyone could possible want, and you're not going to change his mind. :roll: Byrnzie has a mega-bias for all that is Muslim.
Meanwhile, there are many charities fighting for gender equality in the Middle East and other places in the world where women are lesser human beings, so if anyone feels like getting involved, that Global Citizen thing that PJ's just become involved with has a lot of resources for you to learn more and find out how to make it better for those poor women, and, in turn, entire nations.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
They are brought up in a culture that makes them think this is normal and ok. That doesn't make it right.
And you're brought up in a culture that makes you think that spending a lifetime working for someone else, and buying a ton of shit you don't need, is normal and o.k. That doesn't make it right.
They are brought up in a culture that makes them think this is normal and ok. That doesn't make it right.
And you're brought up in a culture that makes you think that spending a lifetime working for someone else, and buying a ton of shit you don't need, is o.k. That doesn't make it right.
I think it's pathetic that you are comparing the subjugation of women to consumerism. That tells me that you are woefully deluded when it comes to what Muslim women are often subjected to. As a woman, I find it insulting. You have no idea when you're talking about on this matter because you are too blinded by your massive biases.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think it's pathetic that you are comparing the subjugation of women to consumerism. That tells me that you are woefully deluded when it comes to what Muslim women are often subjected to. As a woman, I find it insulting. You have no idea when you're talking about on this matter because you are too blinded by your massive biases.
You call it the subjugation of women; what do Muslim women themselves call it? Or do you presume to know better than them about the lives they live?
Maybe Muslim women think you're subjugated.
Oh, and you can feel insulted as much as you like.
I think it's pathetic that you are comparing the subjugation of women to consumerism. That tells me that you are woefully deluded when it comes to what Muslim women are often subjected to. As a woman, I find it insulting. You have no idea when you're talking about on this matter because you are too blinded by your massive biases.
You call it the subjugation of women; what do Muslim women themselves call it? Or do you presume to know better than them about the lives they live?
Maybe Muslim women think you'resubjugated.
Oh, and you can feel insulted as much as you like.
You are aware that there are Muslim women who are trying to fight for Muslim women's, and in many cases risking their safety and even their lives to do it, right??
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Don't bother man. He is fully convinced that Muslim women have all the freedom anyone could possible want, and you're not going to change his mind. :roll: Byrnzie has a mega-bias for all that is Muslim.
Meanwhile, there are many charities fighting for gender equality in the Middle East and other places in the world where women are lesser human beings, so if anyone feels like getting involved, that Global Citizen thing that PJ's just become involved with has a lot of resources for you to learn more and find out how to make it better for those poor women, and, in turn, entire nations.
I think many Muslim women would be insulted by the level of arrogance that allows you to presume to know what's best for them. I'm sure plenty of those 'poor women' would tell you to climb down off your ethnocentric high horse and quit patronizing them.
Don't bother man. He is fully convinced that Muslim women have all the freedom anyone could possible want, and you're not going to change his mind. :roll: Byrnzie has a mega-bias for all that is Muslim.
And I'm supposed to take you seriously when you come out with things like this?:
Don't bother man. He is fully convinced that Muslim women have all the freedom anyone could possible want, and you're not going to change his mind. :roll: Byrnzie has a mega-bias for all that is Muslim.
Meanwhile, there are many charities fighting for gender equality in the Middle East and other places in the world where women are lesser human beings, so if anyone feels like getting involved, that Global Citizen thing that PJ's just become involved with has a lot of resources for you to learn more and find out how to make it better for those poor women, and, in turn, entire nations.
I think many Muslim women would be insulted by the level of arrogance that allows to presume to know what's best for them. I'm sure there plenty of those 'poor women' would tell you to climb down off your ethnocentric high horse and quit patronizing them.
I think that is ridiculous, and shows that you don't have a fucking clue about what women in this world suffer through at the hands of men and strongly male-dominated cultures. You can keep up with this ethnocentric crap all you want, but nothing is going to convince any right-thinking female that Muslim women would not be much better off if they weren't restricted by how they are viewed and treated in the Middle East. Wanting women to have equality is NOT patronizing, give me a fucking break. Those "poor women" are the ones that aren't allowed an education, are beaten if they disobey their male family members, and get their clitorises cut off so they can never experience pleasure is sex. If you don't think they deserve sympathy and empathy, then there is something wrong with you. I think your belief system on this subject is completely fucked up if you think it's insulting for a woman to believe in equality for all women and to feel for those who suffer from gender inequality, so there is no point in my discussing it with you anymore.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Don't bother man. He is fully convinced that Muslim women have all the freedom anyone could possible want, and you're not going to change his mind. :roll: Byrnzie has a mega-bias for all that is Muslim.
And I'm supposed to take you seriously when you come out with things like this?:
I don't know how anyone can pick a side at all... People should be vilifying Israel AND Palestine.
I think your contempt for Muslims in general is pretty apparent.
I have contempt for the position of women in the Muslim world, and I don't feel bad about it at all. I am PROUD to feel contempt for that part of any culture, not just Muslim.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I have contempt for the position of women in the Muslim world, and I don't feel bad about it at all. I am PROUD to feel contempt for that part of any culture, not just Muslim.
'A man came to the Prophet, PBUH, and asked: "Who among my kinfolk is worthy of my good companionship?" The Prophet –peace be upon him-, replied: "Your mother" three times before saying: "Your father." This indicates the impact that a mother has in a person's life. So women are highly honored in this great religion.
Islam is a religion that treats women fairly. The Muslim woman was given a role, duties and rights 1400 years ago that most women do not enjoy even today in the West. These rights are from God and are designed to maintain a balance in society; what may seem “unjust” or “missing” in one place is compensated for or explained in another place.
"The best among you are those who are the best to their wives." This shows that Islam highly encourages treating the wives well. They should be shown love, respect and care.
Sometimes, people see covered Muslim women and they think of this as oppression. This is wrong. A Muslim woman is not oppressed, in fact, she is liberated. This is because she is no longer valued for something material, such as her good looks or the shape of her body. She compels others to judge her for her intelligence, kindness, honesty and personality. Therefore, people judge her for who she actually is.
When Muslim women cover their hair and wear loose clothes, they are obeying the orders of their Lord to be modest, not cultural or social mores. In fact, Christian nuns cover their hair out of modesty, yet no one considers them “oppressed”. By following the command of Allah, Muslim women are doing the exact same thing.'
http://old.post-gazette.com/headlines/2 ... nat3p3.asp
It is estimated that about 10 percent of the female Muslim population nationally wears the hijab, although those numbers may be growing as more people convert to Islam. It's not clear how many women do so among the 10,000 Muslims living in the Pittsburgh region. But nearly all of those interviewed stressed that wearing the veil was a personal decision, a far cry from the coercion experienced by women in Afghanistan.
In fact, the Quran, the Muslim holy book, doesn't require that Muslim women cover their heads, although it asks both men and women to "lower their gaze and guard their modesty."
"The idea behind that was that the sexuality of one didn't influence the other, so that men and women would treat each other like equal human beings," said Zieba Shorish-Shamley, an anthropologist and Muslim feminist who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Women's Alliance for Peace and Human Rights in Afghanistan.
"I think that for many young women, it's a symbol they are attached to their culture, they're proud of their religion, and they see it as part of their identity as separate from this globalized McDonald's world," said Michelmore, associate professor of history at Chatham College.
Expression or oppression?
Indeed, many Muslim women consider the head scarf a form of feminist expression, because it forces people to judge them by their character rather than their looks.
"I look at wearing a hijab as liberating," said Jennifer Fadel, an American who converted to Islam 10 years ago and who is married to a native of Lebanon. "It protects my dignity. I don't have to worry about looking good and doing my hair all up just to impress others."
"No I don't feel oppressed 'cos it's not like it's strangling me or anything. It's really not that hard to wear it, well Alhamdulillah for me anyway. But I've been brought up wearing it so that's probably why it's easier for me. But I used to go to secondary school in Belfast where me and my sister were the only Pakistanis/Muslims that that school had had in it's entire history, some girls were rude to us, but most were really understanding.
I can understand why it may seem hard for you, but know that once you're with Allah (SWT), Allah is with you! No one can harm you unless with the permission of Allah, and when you practise something that He has commanded, like the hijab, then you receive so much barkat/blessings in everything you do 'cos Allah loves His creation!! And He is always on your side! You may receive some hostility but it's all a test from Allah and Allah only tests those that He loves. I think it's sooo great MashaAllah that you realise the importance of hijab and you have a desire to wear it, you're halfway there!! InshaAllah you'll gain the strength to wear it one day, and when you do trust me you'll feel so liberated, so FREE, free from so many different things. I totally get what you mean about being oppressed by Western culture, women followers of the Western culture are slaves to the fashion industry/materialism and constantly being told they don't look good enough, so they're forever trying to look good and "fit in" with society, they try to be how the world/media/society wants them to be, they need to have the latest clothes/shoes/bags, they need to follow the latest trends, they spend silly amounts of money on this stuff, now that's what I call oppression! But when you wear the hijab, none of this stuff matters. You're free from all this oppression and free from your own nafs (self-desires) aswell 'cos many girls become too vain and self-absorbed. Hijab protects you from so many things, I can't stress it's value and significance enough..."
'A man came to the Prophet, PBUH, and asked: "Who among my kinfolk is worthy of my good companionship?" The Prophet –peace be upon him-, replied: "Your mother" three times before saying: "Your father." This indicates the impact that a mother has in a person's life. So women are highly honored in this great religion.
Islam is a religion that treats women fairly. The Muslim woman was given a role, duties and rights 1400 years ago that most women do not enjoy even today in the West. These rights are from God and are designed to maintain a balance in society; what may seem “unjust” or “missing” in one place is compensated for or explained in another place.
"The best among you are those who are the best to their wives." This shows that Islam highly encourages treating the wives well. They should be shown love, respect and care.
Sometimes, people see covered Muslim women and they think of this as oppression. This is wrong. A Muslim woman is not oppressed, in fact, she is liberated. This is because she is no longer valued for something material, such as her good looks or the shape of her body. She compels others to judge her for her intelligence, kindness, honesty and personality. Therefore, people judge her for who she actually is.
When Muslim women cover their hair and wear loose clothes, they are obeying the orders of their Lord to be modest, not cultural or social mores. In fact, Christian nuns cover their hair out of modesty, yet no one considers them “oppressed”. By following the command of Allah, Muslim women are doing the exact same thing.'
http://old.post-gazette.com/headlines/2 ... nat3p3.asp
It is estimated that about 10 percent of the female Muslim population nationally wears the hijab, although those numbers may be growing as more people convert to Islam. It's not clear how many women do so among the 10,000 Muslims living in the Pittsburgh region. But nearly all of those interviewed stressed that wearing the veil was a personal decision, a far cry from the coercion experienced by women in Afghanistan.
In fact, the Quran, the Muslim holy book, doesn't require that Muslim women cover their heads, although it asks both men and women to "lower their gaze and guard their modesty."
"The idea behind that was that the sexuality of one didn't influence the other, so that men and women would treat each other like equal human beings," said Zieba Shorish-Shamley, an anthropologist and Muslim feminist who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Women's Alliance for Peace and Human Rights in Afghanistan.
"I think that for many young women, it's a symbol they are attached to their culture, they're proud of their religion, and they see it as part of their identity as separate from this globalized McDonald's world," said Michelmore, associate professor of history at Chatham College.
Expression or oppression?
Indeed, many Muslim women consider the head scarf a form of feminist expression, because it forces people to judge them by their character rather than their looks.
"I look at wearing a hijab as liberating," said Jennifer Fadel, an American who converted to Islam 10 years ago and who is married to a native of Lebanon. "It protects my dignity. I don't have to worry about looking good and doing my hair all up just to impress others."
"No I don't feel oppressed 'cos it's not like it's strangling me or anything. It's really not that hard to wear it, well Alhamdulillah for me anyway. But I've been brought up wearing it so that's probably why it's easier for me. But I used to go to secondary school in Belfast where me and my sister were the only Pakistanis/Muslims that that school had had in it's entire history, some girls were rude to us, but most were really understanding.
I can understand why it may seem hard for you, but know that once you're with Allah (SWT), Allah is with you! No one can harm you unless with the permission of Allah, and when you practise something that He has commanded, like the hijab, then you receive so much barkat/blessings in everything you do 'cos Allah loves His creation!! And He is always on your side! You may receive some hostility but it's all a test from Allah and Allah only tests those that He loves. I think it's sooo great MashaAllah that you realise the importance of hijab and you have a desire to wear it, you're halfway there!! InshaAllah you'll gain the strength to wear it one day, and when you do trust me you'll feel so liberated, so FREE, free from so many different things. I totally get what you mean about being oppressed by Western culture, women followers of the Western culture are slaves to the fashion industry/materialism and constantly being told they don't look good enough, so they're forever trying to look good and "fit in" with society, they try to be how the world/media/society wants them to be, they need to have the latest clothes/shoes/bags, they need to follow the latest trends, they spend silly amounts of money on this stuff, now that's what I call oppression! But when you wear the hijab, none of this stuff matters. You're free from all this oppression and free from your own nafs (self-desires) aswell 'cos many girls become too vain and self-absorbed. Hijab protects you from so many things, I can't stress it's value and significance enough..."
As I said, we are all free to make our own choices.
No, we're not.
Yes, we are. When it comes to consumerism and deciding which products we want to buy, or if we want to buy any at all, yes we are. Advertising is suggestion, not control.
As I said, we are all free to make our own choices.
No, we're not.
Yes, we are. When it comes to consumerism and deciding which products we want to buy, or if we want to buy any at all, yes we are. Advertising is suggestion, not control.
No, you're not. You're conditioned from an early age to partake in a consumerist society, and you feel all the same pressures of consumption as everybody else. And if you don't think that advertising has any influence on the things you buy and the amount of money you spend on those things, then you're deluding yourself.
The way of life we lead in the developed World isn't a natural, or sustainable way of life. In fact, it's kind of absurd if you think about for it for 5 seconds. But we've been conditioned to accept it as normal. And that's not freedom. Freedom is breaking out of the mold and finding our true place in the World.
No, you're not. You're conditioned from an early age to partake in a consumerist society, and you feel all the same pressures of consumption as everybody else. And if you don't think that advertising has any influence on the things you buy and the amount of money you spend on those things, then you're deluding yourself.
The way of life we lead in the developed World isn't a natural, or sustainable way of life. In fact, it's kind of absurd if you think about for it for 5 seconds. But we've been conditioned to accept it as normal. And that's not freedom. Freedom is breaking out of the mold and finding our true place in the World.
Do you think Muslim women have this freedom to break out of the mold that has been cast for them and find their true place in the world?
For example, I hear all the time of Muslim women being killed- by their male family members no less- for choosing a boyfriend outside of their religion.
While you are correct about western society's propensity to consume... I think you are a little off the mark with regards to suggesting Muslim women have it good. In my opinion, many Muslim women know no differently, therefore are at peace with their existence. This doesn't make it right and from the outside looking in... there is much to dislike regarding Muslim's treatment of their women.
Education offers these women a chance at what most consider a better life, but Muslim women shouldn't get too educated. Remember this nasty incident?
Do you think Muslim women have this freedom to break out of the mold that has been cast for them and find their true place in the world?
For example, I hear all the time of Muslim women being killed- by their male family members no less- for choosing a boyfriend outside of their religion.
While you are correct about western society's propensity to consume... I think you are a little off the mark with regards to suggesting Muslim women have it good. In my opinion, many Muslim women know no differently, therefore are at peace with their existence. This doesn't make it right and from the outside looking in... there is much to dislike regarding Muslim's treatment of their women.
Education offers these women a chance at what most consider a better life, but Muslim women shouldn't get too educated. Remember this nasty incident?
I never said Muslim women have it good, or that 'Muslim women have all the freedom anyone could possible want'. I was simply drawing parallels with the level of conditioning that takes place in both cultures. We in the West think we're immune to it, but we aren't.
And yes, there are extremist, oppressive aspects of Islam that exist in some parts of the World, but to claim that they exist across the entire spectrum of that religion is as ludicrous as claiming that U.S televangelists, or the Westboro Baptist Church, represent all Christians. They don't.
Also, I do find it interesting that we like to sit back and cast judgement on Muslims; painting them as oppressive, violent, and dangerous, when at the same time we watch our own governments dropping bombs on foreign countries that have done us no harm, and making little to no noise when soldiers accused of the murder of innocent civilians in cold blood in those countries walk away without punishment. I also find it interesting that we allow our taxes to go towards funding a campaign of ethnic cleansing in Israel, whilst blaming the victims of that same ethnic cleansing for their situation. It really is kind of absurd.
I posted this excerpt from the following article in the other thread about the incident in London last week, but I think it should be read in the context of this discussion too:
Andrew Sullivan, terrorism, and the art of distortion
Challenging the conventional western narrative on terrorism produces unique amounts of rage and bile. It's worth examining why
Glenn Greenwald
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 25 May 2013
'...He [Andrew Sullivan - Conservative Political Commentator], and so many others, are deeply invested on a psychological and personal level in protecting the narrative that Islam is a uniquely violent force in the world, that Muslim extremists pose a threat that nobody else poses, and that the US, the West and its allies (including Israel) are morally superior and more civilized than their adversaries, and their violence is more noble and elevated.
Labeling the violent acts of those Muslim Others as "terrorism" - but never our own - is a key weapon used to propagate this worldview. The same is true of the tactic that depicts their violence against us as senseless, primitive, savage and without rational cause, while glorifying our own violence against them as noble, high-minded, benevolent and civilized (we slaughter them with shiny, high-tech drones, cluster bombs, jet fighters and cruise missiles, while they use meat cleavers and razor blades). These are the core propagandistic premises used to sustain the central narrative on which the War on Terror has depended from the start (and, by the way, have been the core premises of imperialism for centuries). That is why those most invested in defending and glorifying this War on Terror become so enraged when those premises are challenged, and it's why they feel a need to use any smears and distortions (he's justifying terrorism!) to discredit those who do.
...as was clear from the furor that erupted after the debate over the anti-Muslim views of Sam Harris and company, and as is demonstrated again by Sullivan's unhinged reaction here to what I wrote, the need to maintain the belief that Islam is a uniquely grave danger in the world - and that western violence against them is superior to their violence against the west - is one that is incredibly deep-seated and visceral. That seems to be true for several independent reasons.
First, it's a by-product of base tribalism. Americans and westerners have been relentlessly bombarded with the message that We are the Noble and Innocent Victims and those Muslims are the Evil, Primitive, Savage Aggressors, so that's what many people are trained to believe, and view any challenge to that as an assault on their core tribalistic convictions. The defining tribalistic belief that Our Side is Superior (and our violence thus inherently more noble than theirs) has been stoked by political leaders since politics began to sustain support for their aggression and entrench their own power. It's a potent drive - something humans instinctively want to believe - and is therefore one that is easily manipulated by skillful propagandists.
Second, all sorts of agendas are advanced by maintaining these premises in place. As the scholar Remi Brulin has documented, "terrorism" in its recent incarnation was designed by the US to justify all of the violence it wanted to do in the world from Central America to the Middle East, and by Israel to universalize the vicious and intractable conflicts it has with its Arab neighbors (our wars aren't just our fights with them over land; it's a global struggle to stop a plague that is also your fight: against Terrorism). A great new book by Harvard's Lisa Stampnitzky makes the argument indicated by its title: "Disciplining Terror: How Experts Invented 'Terrorism'". The functional meaninglessness of the term "terrorism" and its highly manipulative exploitation are vital to several political agendas. That fact renders the guardians of those agendas furious when the conventional and highly emotional understanding of the term is questioned, and especially when it's suggested that anti-western violence isn't best understood as the by-product of unique pathologies in Islam but rather in the context of decades of western aggression toward that region.
...Third, and I think most significantly, there is a very potent human need to deny responsibility for our own actions and avoid being shown the worst attributes of our own behavior, and a corresponding "kill-the-messenger" impulse aimed at those who want to focus on (rather than hide) all of that. It's not irrelevant that Sullivan (along with Jeffrey Goldberg, Tom Friedman and Christopher Hitchens) was one of the world's most vocal, most passionate, and most effective media cheerleaders for the attack on Iraq (which he yesterday acknowledged was "a criminal enterprise and strategic catastrophe" even while justifying it on the ground that it "removed one of the most vicious mass murderers of Muslims on the planet"). But Sullivan was not only that: he also led the way (along with Hitchens) in implanting in the public mind the idea that the US and the UK were leading a Grand Civilization War, and he spouted some of the most repellent rhetoric of demonization against anyone who uttered any protest.
,,,I used to wonder how people like Sullivan and other Americans and westerners, who continuously justify any manner of violence and militarism by their own side, could possibly spend so much time pointing to others and depicting them - those people over there - as the embodiment of violence and savage aggression. But at some point I realized that it's precisely because they continuously justify so much violence and aggression from their side that they have such a boundless compulsion to depict others as the Uniquely Primitive and Violent Evil. That's how they absolve themselves. It's how they distract themselves from the reality of what they support and what their governments do in the world. And it's why few things produce quite as much personal resentment and anger than demanding that they first gaze into a mirror before issuing these absolutist denunciations about others.
No, you're not. You're conditioned from an early age to partake in a consumerist society, and you feel all the same pressures of consumption as everybody else. And if you don't think that advertising has any influence on the things you buy and the amount of money you spend on those things, then you're deluding yourself.
The way of life we lead in the developed World isn't a natural, or sustainable way of life. In fact, it's kind of absurd if you think about for it for 5 seconds. But we've been conditioned to accept it as normal. And that's not freedom. Freedom is breaking out of the mold and finding our true place in the World.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said advertising has no influence, I said it has no control. If it did I would be eating Taco Bell and drinking Mountain Dew at lunch every day. I don't choose to buy those things and no amount of advertising is going to make me want to. The choice is ours and we are free to make it.
Do you think Muslim women have this freedom to break out of the mold that has been cast for them and find their true place in the world?
For example, I hear all the time of Muslim women being killed- by their male family members no less- for choosing a boyfriend outside of their religion.
While you are correct about western society's propensity to consume... I think you are a little off the mark with regards to suggesting Muslim women have it good. In my opinion, many Muslim women know no differently, therefore are at peace with their existence. This doesn't make it right and from the outside looking in... there is much to dislike regarding Muslim's treatment of their women.
Education offers these women a chance at what most consider a better life, but Muslim women shouldn't get too educated. Remember this nasty incident?
I never said Muslim women have it good, or that 'Muslim women have all the freedom anyone could possible want'. I was simply drawing parallels with the level of conditioning that takes place in both cultures. We in the West think we're immune to it, but we aren't.
And yes, there are extremist, oppressive aspects of Islam that exist in some parts of the World, but to claim that they exist across the entire spectrum of that religion is as ludicrous as claiming that U.S televangelists, or the Westboro Baptist Church, represent all Christians. They don't.
Also, I do find it interesting that we like to sit back and cast judgement on Muslims; painting them as oppressive, violent, and dangerous, when at the same time we watch our own governments dropping bombs on foreign countries that have done us no harm, and making little to no noise when soldiers accused of the murder of innocent civilians in cold blood in those countries walk away without punishment. I also find it interesting that we allow our taxes to go towards funding a campaign of ethnic cleansing in Israel, whilst blaming the victims of that same ethnic cleansing for their situation. It really is kind of absurd.
I'm not going to argue against anything here, although I would say that the level of extremism is more pronounced with the Muslim faith. As far as I know, female circumcisions, killing your daughter because she has shamed the family for loving someone outside of the faith and a number of other things are not aspects of the extreme or most goofy factions of the Christian faith.
Don't get me wrong here. I find nearly every religion a very troubling aspect of humanity. I could speak at length about this, but I'll resist. You do it for me anyways !
Comments
Really, Tel Aviv? Recent articles in haaretz have had men hurling rocks at women at the western wall, that is jewish men hurling rocks at jewish women. Also, women in Jerusalem get attacked the orthodox jews there if they show so much as an ankle. Women get spat on and threatened. If you are an African Jew you get forcibly sterilized.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/li ... m-1.523231
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/is ... m-1.496519
For Muslim and Christians living in the OPT and israel, as can be imagined are treated worse. Children are arrested and raped with various objects.... Israel has to be the worst offender for human rights anywhere. Moral ground? Hah...not a foot to stand on. Tel Aviv, a bastion for feminism and human rights...what a joke. You should go live there, great place. Hope you are not black or a woman or Muslim or Christian, other than that, great place.
salaam alaikum......
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327187,00.html
Two months into an arranged marriage, Fozia Sadiq, a young Pakistani immigrant, found herself trapped in the suburbs of Dallas, Texas, with a violent husband.She says he routinely beat her and intimidated her into never going anywhere in public without him.
http://www.iqrasense.com/muslim-character/muslim-women-and-cases-of-domestic-abuse.html
A recent article in the New York Times highlighted domestic violence and other social issues faced by Muslim sisters in the US.
Unfortunately, such domestic abuse issues are quite common in Muslim households. The domestic issues that Muslim women face worldwide include husbands striking their wives (even when they are pregnant), family violence through marital discord, suicide, depression, humiliation, and other emotional illnesses that result from such treatment, and much more.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/the-muslim-brotherhoods-treatment-of-women-reveals-its-agenda-for-egypt/article10052979/
On Saturday in Cairo, a young Egyptian female activist, Mervat Moussa, was slapped to the ground by a member of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood. Her only crime was demonstrating in front of the Brotherhood’s main headquarters
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=98
Throughout the Muslim world, women are treated as second-class citizens who are inferior to men in terms of intelligence, morals, and faith. This arrangement derives from the Qur'an itself, which states unambiguously: “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other” (Qur'an 4:34).
Anyway, not to derail Byrnzie's thread any further, I think Glenn Greenwald did an amazing job with another troll, Bill Maher. I love a lot of what he says in his articles, his twitter, his interviews, etc.
I didn't say I know nothing about the culture... only that I have no firsthand experience in it (though I wish I did and hope I will)... some in my family have been to Egypt and Turkey... I have studied the culture pretty well... I think it's fair to say I know much more about it than the average Westerner.
And I completely agree with your condemnations of Western culture.
Well, I respect Haaretz and what they report is assuredly true. But I'm also sure Haaretz would report more frequently about such abuses if they were reporting from Riyadh or Tehran or from a Taliban-occupied city.
And there is no doubt that Palestinians are being horribly oppressed by Israel. Israelis are reacting to the violence of Muslims against innocents. Religion inspired all of this horrible oppression and violence.
My city of Boston was living peacefully until two Muslims decided to ruin it.
No way in hell I'm getting up at 4 am to say a prayer. Only thing I get up at 4 am is if the tornado sirens are going off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl66zh_RzSA
http://www.nirandfar.com/2013/05/think- ... again.html
'...Consider the famous Pepsi Challenge, which researchers have recreated in the lab on several occasions. Studies reveal that when people are asked to do a blind taste test of Coke versus Pepsi they split equally, showing little measurable preference. However, if people are asked to evaluate the drinks knowing the brand name, they disproportionately prefer Coke.
But here’s where the research gets interesting. When a study compared preference for Coke to an unidentified cola, Coke was overwhelmingly chosen. However, unbeknownst to the taster, sometimes the other cola was not just some drink, it too was Coke. Despite tasting two identical drinks, the Coke brand affected the flavor of the sample. MRI scans of the testers brains confirmed they had actually experienced the two drinks differently.
Similar effects have been observed with other factors, which should not objectively affect taste. For example, wine you believe is expensive really does taste better. After all, isn’t expensive wine supposed to taste better? It better if you just shelled out an ungodly sum on a bottle. Here again, the brain’s ability to perceive the world the way it expects it to be kicks into high gear.
Just as the expectation of a placebo’s effect informs how we perceive physical symptoms, associations create connections between things, which may or may not be related. Marketers create these associations to ensure consumers choose their products out of habit, as well as enjoy them more once they do.'
I don't think it is a surprise that people often choose products they are familiar and comfortable with. Especially in a taste test where both choices are the same but only one is labeled.
As I said, we are all free to make our own choices.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Really?
You have some great insight and points on Israel and Palestine. But this one you went off the deep end.
They are brought up in a culture that makes them think this is normal and ok. That doesn't make it right.
Meanwhile, there are many charities fighting for gender equality in the Middle East and other places in the world where women are lesser human beings, so if anyone feels like getting involved, that Global Citizen thing that PJ's just become involved with has a lot of resources for you to learn more and find out how to make it better for those poor women, and, in turn, entire nations.
No, we're not.
And you're brought up in a culture that makes you think that spending a lifetime working for someone else, and buying a ton of shit you don't need, is normal and o.k. That doesn't make it right.
You call it the subjugation of women; what do Muslim women themselves call it? Or do you presume to know better than them about the lives they live?
Maybe Muslim women think you're subjugated.
Oh, and you can feel insulted as much as you like.
I think many Muslim women would be insulted by the level of arrogance that allows you to presume to know what's best for them. I'm sure plenty of those 'poor women' would tell you to climb down off your ethnocentric high horse and quit patronizing them.
And I'm supposed to take you seriously when you come out with things like this?:
I think your contempt for Muslims in general is pretty apparent.
Give yourself a pat on the back.
'A man came to the Prophet, PBUH, and asked: "Who among my kinfolk is worthy of my good companionship?" The Prophet –peace be upon him-, replied: "Your mother" three times before saying: "Your father." This indicates the impact that a mother has in a person's life. So women are highly honored in this great religion.
Islam is a religion that treats women fairly. The Muslim woman was given a role, duties and rights 1400 years ago that most women do not enjoy even today in the West. These rights are from God and are designed to maintain a balance in society; what may seem “unjust” or “missing” in one place is compensated for or explained in another place.
"The best among you are those who are the best to their wives." This shows that Islam highly encourages treating the wives well. They should be shown love, respect and care.
Sometimes, people see covered Muslim women and they think of this as oppression. This is wrong. A Muslim woman is not oppressed, in fact, she is liberated. This is because she is no longer valued for something material, such as her good looks or the shape of her body. She compels others to judge her for her intelligence, kindness, honesty and personality. Therefore, people judge her for who she actually is.
When Muslim women cover their hair and wear loose clothes, they are obeying the orders of their Lord to be modest, not cultural or social mores. In fact, Christian nuns cover their hair out of modesty, yet no one considers them “oppressed”. By following the command of Allah, Muslim women are doing the exact same thing.'
http://old.post-gazette.com/headlines/2 ... nat3p3.asp
It is estimated that about 10 percent of the female Muslim population nationally wears the hijab, although those numbers may be growing as more people convert to Islam. It's not clear how many women do so among the 10,000 Muslims living in the Pittsburgh region. But nearly all of those interviewed stressed that wearing the veil was a personal decision, a far cry from the coercion experienced by women in Afghanistan.
In fact, the Quran, the Muslim holy book, doesn't require that Muslim women cover their heads, although it asks both men and women to "lower their gaze and guard their modesty."
"The idea behind that was that the sexuality of one didn't influence the other, so that men and women would treat each other like equal human beings," said Zieba Shorish-Shamley, an anthropologist and Muslim feminist who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Women's Alliance for Peace and Human Rights in Afghanistan.
"I think that for many young women, it's a symbol they are attached to their culture, they're proud of their religion, and they see it as part of their identity as separate from this globalized McDonald's world," said Michelmore, associate professor of history at Chatham College.
Expression or oppression?
Indeed, many Muslim women consider the head scarf a form of feminist expression, because it forces people to judge them by their character rather than their looks.
"I look at wearing a hijab as liberating," said Jennifer Fadel, an American who converted to Islam 10 years ago and who is married to a native of Lebanon. "It protects my dignity. I don't have to worry about looking good and doing my hair all up just to impress others."
"No I don't feel oppressed 'cos it's not like it's strangling me or anything. It's really not that hard to wear it, well Alhamdulillah for me anyway. But I've been brought up wearing it so that's probably why it's easier for me. But I used to go to secondary school in Belfast where me and my sister were the only Pakistanis/Muslims that that school had had in it's entire history, some girls were rude to us, but most were really understanding.
I can understand why it may seem hard for you, but know that once you're with Allah (SWT), Allah is with you!
:thumbup:
Yes, we are. When it comes to consumerism and deciding which products we want to buy, or if we want to buy any at all, yes we are. Advertising is suggestion, not control.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
No, you're not. You're conditioned from an early age to partake in a consumerist society, and you feel all the same pressures of consumption as everybody else. And if you don't think that advertising has any influence on the things you buy and the amount of money you spend on those things, then you're deluding yourself.
The way of life we lead in the developed World isn't a natural, or sustainable way of life. In fact, it's kind of absurd if you think about for it for 5 seconds. But we've been conditioned to accept it as normal. And that's not freedom. Freedom is breaking out of the mold and finding our true place in the World.
Do you think Muslim women have this freedom to break out of the mold that has been cast for them and find their true place in the world?
For example, I hear all the time of Muslim women being killed- by their male family members no less- for choosing a boyfriend outside of their religion.
While you are correct about western society's propensity to consume... I think you are a little off the mark with regards to suggesting Muslim women have it good. In my opinion, many Muslim women know no differently, therefore are at peace with their existence. This doesn't make it right and from the outside looking in... there is much to dislike regarding Muslim's treatment of their women.
Education offers these women a chance at what most consider a better life, but Muslim women shouldn't get too educated. Remember this nasty incident?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/bri ... cle584209/
I never said Muslim women have it good, or that 'Muslim women have all the freedom anyone could possible want'. I was simply drawing parallels with the level of conditioning that takes place in both cultures. We in the West think we're immune to it, but we aren't.
And yes, there are extremist, oppressive aspects of Islam that exist in some parts of the World, but to claim that they exist across the entire spectrum of that religion is as ludicrous as claiming that U.S televangelists, or the Westboro Baptist Church, represent all Christians. They don't.
Also, I do find it interesting that we like to sit back and cast judgement on Muslims; painting them as oppressive, violent, and dangerous, when at the same time we watch our own governments dropping bombs on foreign countries that have done us no harm, and making little to no noise when soldiers accused of the murder of innocent civilians in cold blood in those countries walk away without punishment. I also find it interesting that we allow our taxes to go towards funding a campaign of ethnic cleansing in Israel, whilst blaming the victims of that same ethnic cleansing for their situation. It really is kind of absurd.
I posted this excerpt from the following article in the other thread about the incident in London last week, but I think it should be read in the context of this discussion too:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... m-woolwich
Andrew Sullivan, terrorism, and the art of distortion
Challenging the conventional western narrative on terrorism produces unique amounts of rage and bile. It's worth examining why
Glenn Greenwald
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 25 May 2013
'...He [Andrew Sullivan - Conservative Political Commentator], and so many others, are deeply invested on a psychological and personal level in protecting the narrative that Islam is a uniquely violent force in the world, that Muslim extremists pose a threat that nobody else poses, and that the US, the West and its allies (including Israel) are morally superior and more civilized than their adversaries, and their violence is more noble and elevated.
Labeling the violent acts of those Muslim Others as "terrorism" - but never our own - is a key weapon used to propagate this worldview. The same is true of the tactic that depicts their violence against us as senseless, primitive, savage and without rational cause, while glorifying our own violence against them as noble, high-minded, benevolent and civilized (we slaughter them with shiny, high-tech drones, cluster bombs, jet fighters and cruise missiles, while they use meat cleavers and razor blades). These are the core propagandistic premises used to sustain the central narrative on which the War on Terror has depended from the start (and, by the way, have been the core premises of imperialism for centuries). That is why those most invested in defending and glorifying this War on Terror become so enraged when those premises are challenged, and it's why they feel a need to use any smears and distortions (he's justifying terrorism!) to discredit those who do.
...as was clear from the furor that erupted after the debate over the anti-Muslim views of Sam Harris and company, and as is demonstrated again by Sullivan's unhinged reaction here to what I wrote, the need to maintain the belief that Islam is a uniquely grave danger in the world - and that western violence against them is superior to their violence against the west - is one that is incredibly deep-seated and visceral. That seems to be true for several independent reasons.
First, it's a by-product of base tribalism. Americans and westerners have been relentlessly bombarded with the message that We are the Noble and Innocent Victims and those Muslims are the Evil, Primitive, Savage Aggressors, so that's what many people are trained to believe, and view any challenge to that as an assault on their core tribalistic convictions. The defining tribalistic belief that Our Side is Superior (and our violence thus inherently more noble than theirs) has been stoked by political leaders since politics began to sustain support for their aggression and entrench their own power. It's a potent drive - something humans instinctively want to believe - and is therefore one that is easily manipulated by skillful propagandists.
Second, all sorts of agendas are advanced by maintaining these premises in place. As the scholar Remi Brulin has documented, "terrorism" in its recent incarnation was designed by the US to justify all of the violence it wanted to do in the world from Central America to the Middle East, and by Israel to universalize the vicious and intractable conflicts it has with its Arab neighbors (our wars aren't just our fights with them over land; it's a global struggle to stop a plague that is also your fight: against Terrorism). A great new book by Harvard's Lisa Stampnitzky makes the argument indicated by its title: "Disciplining Terror: How Experts Invented 'Terrorism'". The functional meaninglessness of the term "terrorism" and its highly manipulative exploitation are vital to several political agendas. That fact renders the guardians of those agendas furious when the conventional and highly emotional understanding of the term is questioned, and especially when it's suggested that anti-western violence isn't best understood as the by-product of unique pathologies in Islam but rather in the context of decades of western aggression toward that region.
...Third, and I think most significantly, there is a very potent human need to deny responsibility for our own actions and avoid being shown the worst attributes of our own behavior, and a corresponding "kill-the-messenger" impulse aimed at those who want to focus on (rather than hide) all of that. It's not irrelevant that Sullivan (along with Jeffrey Goldberg, Tom Friedman and Christopher Hitchens) was one of the world's most vocal, most passionate, and most effective media cheerleaders for the attack on Iraq (which he yesterday acknowledged was "a criminal enterprise and strategic catastrophe" even while justifying it on the ground that it "removed one of the most vicious mass murderers of Muslims on the planet"). But Sullivan was not only that: he also led the way (along with Hitchens) in implanting in the public mind the idea that the US and the UK were leading a Grand Civilization War, and he spouted some of the most repellent rhetoric of demonization against anyone who uttered any protest.
,,,I used to wonder how people like Sullivan and other Americans and westerners, who continuously justify any manner of violence and militarism by their own side, could possibly spend so much time pointing to others and depicting them - those people over there - as the embodiment of violence and savage aggression. But at some point I realized that it's precisely because they continuously justify so much violence and aggression from their side that they have such a boundless compulsion to depict others as the Uniquely Primitive and Violent Evil. That's how they absolve themselves. It's how they distract themselves from the reality of what they support and what their governments do in the world. And it's why few things produce quite as much personal resentment and anger than demanding that they first gaze into a mirror before issuing these absolutist denunciations about others.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said advertising has no influence, I said it has no control. If it did I would be eating Taco Bell and drinking Mountain Dew at lunch every day. I don't choose to buy those things and no amount of advertising is going to make me want to. The choice is ours and we are free to make it.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I'm not going to argue against anything here, although I would say that the level of extremism is more pronounced with the Muslim faith. As far as I know, female circumcisions, killing your daughter because she has shamed the family for loving someone outside of the faith and a number of other things are not aspects of the extreme or most goofy factions of the Christian faith.
Don't get me wrong here. I find nearly every religion a very troubling aspect of humanity. I could speak at length about this, but I'll resist. You do it for me anyways