Margaret Thatcher, former British prime minister, dies at 87

MotoDC

Jason P wrote:

catefrances wrote:

some of the best chefs in the world are british... just saying.

but they are mean.

I, too, enjoy Restaurant Impossible with Robert Irvine.

DriftingByTheStorm

KM228407 wrote:

She destroyed so many towns by closing all the mines where for generations men had worked.

She closed your mines because they were entirely in the red, heavily subsidized by the government, and she thought your country could ill afford to continue throwing money down a hole when that money could have been used more efficiently to purchase fuel on the open international market without the burden of unprofitable labor and fixed overhead costs.

% She had no compassion for people who earned less than others. So the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.

This just isn't true. She had no desire to selectively spend public funds for the benefit of a select class. She thought everyone would be better off if the society was structured around libertarian free market principles that did not endlessly debase the currency, causing the poor to slide farther and farther in to the hole, and crippling savers and fixed income households.

@She made all the troubles in Ireland a million times worse, it was like she thrived on all the upset and fear it caused.

I am not much familiar with The Troubles, I apologize for my ignorance. I sincerely doubt that Lady Thatcher thrived on the suffering of any peoples though.

@ Idon't pretend to be a politician and know every single fact. I do know when she left Downing street everything got so much better.

look at the statistics

fairly unbiased short article on her policies chart at bottom shows dramatic reduction in inflation (down to 5% from 20!!!) with a continuous rise in GDP that would be respectable for any administration.

Certainly she caused acute pain for some, but you have to wonder what the situation would have been if some other PM had allowed inflation to continue to run away and debase the currency.

morello

snagging to read as I too know very little about the story around her.

moretonbayfig

She was also a huge backer of Rupert Murdoch :twisted: and trade union busting... My lower-working class British grandparents loved her though - they give her credit for their homeownership... I give my grandparents the credit which they deny themselves - my grandmother a single mum at 16 who was sent away to a young mother's home to give birth to my mum and worked until 65 and my grandfather who worked full-time in a biscuit factory until retiring at 65 then re-entering the workforce as chauffeur until the age of 75. They are both in their early eighties and do volunteer work for disability and social welfare organisations - true 'working class heroes' :clap:

goldrush

I actually care much less than I thought.....she faded like an old bully from your school days into someone who sometimes clouds your dreams from another life time, someone who once dominated your life but is now a ghost. I was a young boy when she ruled with an Iron hand. There was no room for compromise or sympathy...I used to feel like we were under attack..on TV, in the papers...people often say their childhood memories are of sunny days mine are of winter nights lit with the orange fizz of street lights and kicking a ball with the boys. Pretty much everyone hated her where I came from. It was like breathing to us. We had 6 pits employing over 11,000 people in the Merthyr borough alone..all smashed within a year of the strike. Economic they told us...not political...no coal left and too expensive to get out!! 30 years later and they've opened the top of the mountain where I come from and they're taking it out in tonnage like you wouldn't believe. She lied. She hated us. The people of South Wales. We were unionised, we all knew one another, no one cared who was rich...we were all in the same boat really so it didn't matter. You see...she told us there was no such thing as society when we were living lives where we walked into one another's houses and called out mothers friends 'auntie' and went on holiday en masse together. So she went about the systematic destruction of our way of life..being rich become good...having a house a must...suddenly there was mass unemployment with no chance of work...and the culture of despair set in..something we are still fighting. So I won't be lamenting the passing of a great politician today...or a great woman...I'll ignore all the sycophantic nonsense spewing from the media tonight...because I am from South Wales and I am not Thatcher's child as they call our generation.. I'll go I my grave being a Valley boy who saw first hand what she did to my people.

FinsburyParkCarrots

I'm not so much happy that she's dead as sad that she was ever born.

Byrnzie

hedonist wrote:

She had some balls and fuckin rocked. Couldn't watch more than the beginning of the Iron Lady film; it was difficult to reconcile that "character" vs what I'd seen of her.

RIP.

http://m.guardiannews.com/commentisfree ... l-protests
"This is a politician, after all, who never won the votes of more than a third of the electorate; destroyed communities; created mass unemployment; deindustrialised Britain; redistributed from poor to rich; and, by her deregulation of the City, laid the basis for the crisis that has engulfed us 25 years later.

Thatcher was a prime minister who denounced Nelson Mandela as a terrorist, defended the Chilean fascist dictator Augusto Pinochet, ratcheted up the cold war, and unleashed militarised police on trade unionists and black communities alike. She was Britain's first woman prime minister, but her policies hit women hardest, like Cameron's today."

Byrnzie

pandora wrote:

Sounds like my kind of lady from your description, strong emotions here for a strong woman.

Journey on Margret ...
say hi to Ronald for me.

I'm sure these two pigs with the blood of hundreds of thousands on their hands will get along just fine in whatever hell they both deserve to reside in. Maybe the Gipper and General Pinochet can give the twisted old fascist crone a good spit-roasting.

veddertown

The reaction to this news is nothing short of ridiculous. I live in a very small island community where the total poulation is around 20000 mostly voting in favour of the Liberal Party. The minority here are incomers in search of a more peaceful way of life following years of poverty or near poverty caused itself by a lack of education to take on more than mining or factory production line work. Some of these people were staunch Labour but the reaction here is one of mourning. I had a discussion with an old friend who said, "Thatcher may not be the most popular of public figures but as a politician she had more balls than every Prime Minister combined since her reign ended." Strong words from a steel worker who suffered redundancy under her power. I'm pretty embarrassed by those who came out to celebrate in George Square (Glasgow) to celebrate the passing of the most gutsy politician I've witnessed in my lifetime and I'm not even a supporter of her policies. Nobody filled the streets in Scotland to celebrate the demise of Bin Laden/Gaddaffi/Hussein so to do it for the last British PM who walked the walk is pretty absurd. Most of the quotes I've read on here and on Facebook in the last couple of days are from people who either weren't:

1. Paying taxes.
2. Wiping their own arses.
3. From families left struggling under her reign.
4. Born.

How would you feel to see someone being so disrepectful about the death of one of your parents let alone celebrating the fact? I've read a lot of bullshit opinions over the years but not so many in such a short space of time. Margaret Thatcher like any politician made mistakes but Great Britain would have been much poorer in the present day without her influence. RIP Maggie, you taught me to fight for me and my family despite your cold methods and if Tony Blair had an ounce of your courage the Iraq/Afghanistan death toll for UK forces would be considerably lower today.

PJ_Soul

I just got this email from a fellow union member..... She sent it to our entire local - about 1200 people. As for my own opinion, I agree with this person on that issue completely... but of course, much like most leaders in the western world, she did some good things and some very bad things. I remember we had this hilarious jack-in-the-box of her, bought in London in 1982. I loved that thing.... I think it's still at my mom's house. I'll post a photo if it is; I always got a real kick out of it.

Sisters and Brothers of [union local]:

Prime Minister Stephen Harper wrote in a condolence book for Thatcher today "Canadians mourn the passing ...." blah, blah, blah. Speaking for myself, as a Canadian citizen and taxpayer, I take irate exception to that sentiment. Harper does not speak for this Canadian who is an ex-pat of Yorkshire, England and descendent of mine workers.
While thousands, if not millions, in Britain celebrate the death of Margaret Thatcher with impromptu street parties featuring death cake and songs such as "Hey Ho, the Witch is Dead" some may find it morbid and distasteful. I however, would be there with bells on, for one of many reasons associated with Thatcher's policies. If you put yourself into the job of Prime Minister, your legacy has to take the knocks for decisions made in that role. Ken Loach, UK filmmaker, made this approx. hour-long documentary on the 1984 miners strike. It is worth the watch, if only to get some perspective on the reason why Brits are celebrating:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk18ZY318os

I will not even mention her close friendship with dictator Augusto Pinochet of Chile.

Peace and Solidarity,

[Name of union member]

goldrush

'Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette?post_id=782420042_10152704308725043

This demand for respectful silence in the wake of a public figure's death is not just misguided but dangerous. That one should not speak ill of the dead is arguably appropriate when a private person dies, but it is wildly inappropriate for the death of a controversial public figure, particularly one who wielded significant influence and political power. "Respecting the grief" of Thatcher's family members is appropriate if one is friends with them or attends a wake they organize, but the protocols are fundamentally different when it comes to public discourse about the person's life and political acts. I made this argument at length last year when Christopher Hitchens died and a speak-no-ill rule about him was instantly imposed (a rule he, more than anyone, viciously violated), and I won't repeat that argument today; those interested can read my reasoning here.

But the key point is this: those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography. Typifying these highly dubious claims about Thatcher was this (appropriately diplomatic) statement from President Obama: "The world has lost one of the great champions of freedom and liberty, and America has lost a true friend." Those gushing depictions can be quite consequential, as it was for the week-long tidal wave of unbroken reverence that was heaped on Ronald Reagan upon his death, an episode that to this day shapes how Americans view him and the political ideas he symbolized. Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.

Whatever else may be true of her, Thatcher engaged in incredibly consequential acts that affected millions of people around the world. She played a key role not only in bringing about the first Gulf War but also using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as "terrorists", something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong. She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto ("One of our very best and most valuable friends"). And as my Guardian colleague Seumas Milne detailed last year, "across Britain Thatcher is still hated for the damage she inflicted – and for her political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown."

To demand that all of that be ignored in the face of one-sided requiems to her nobility and greatness is a bit bullying and tyrannical, not to mention warped. As David Wearing put it this morning in satirizing these speak-no-ill-of-the-deceased moralists: "People praising Thatcher's legacy should show some respect for her victims. Tasteless." Tellingly, few people have trouble understanding the need for balanced commentary when the political leaders disliked by the west pass away. Here, for instance, was what the Guardian reported upon the death last month of Hugo Chavez:

"To the millions who detested him as a thug and charlatan, it will be occasion to bid, vocally or discreetly, good riddance."

Nobody, at least that I know of, objected to that observation on the ground that it was disrespectful to the ability of the Chavez family to mourn in peace. Any such objections would have been invalid. It was perfectly justified to note that, particularly as the Guardian also explained that "to the millions who revered him – a third of the country, according to some polls – a messiah has fallen, and their grief will be visceral." Chavez was indeed a divisive and controversial figure, and it would have been reckless to conceal that fact out of some misplaced deference to the grief of his family and supporters. He was a political and historical figure and the need to accurately portray his legacy and prevent misleading hagiography easily outweighed precepts of death etiquette that prevail when a private person dies.

Exactly the same is true of Thatcher. There's something distinctively creepy - in a Roman sort of way - about this mandated ritual that our political leaders must be heralded and consecrated as saints upon death. This is accomplished by this baseless moral precept that it is gauche or worse to balance the gushing praise for them upon death with valid criticisms. There is absolutely nothing wrong with loathing Margaret Thatcher or any other person with political influence and power based upon perceived bad acts, and that doesn't change simply because they die. If anything, it becomes more compelling to commemorate those bad acts upon death as the only antidote against a society erecting a false and jingoistically self-serving history.

Byrnzie

veddertown wrote:

Margaret Thatcher like any politician made mistakes

Ah, that old chestnut.

veddertown wrote:

...Great Britain would have been much poorer in the present day without her influence.

And how do you figure that out?

g under p

I don't the lady much but I thought this was an interesting read...

Margaret Thatcher's Criminal Legacy

By Finian Cunningham
The praise, eulogies, wreaths and ceremonies are all self-indictments of association with one of the most ruthless and criminal political figures in modern times.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e34556.htm

Peace

Smellyman

Byrnzie wrote:

pandora wrote:

Sounds like my kind of lady from your description, strong emotions here for a strong woman.

Journey on Margret ...
say hi to Ronald for me.

I'm sure these two pigs with the blood of hundreds of thousands on their hands will get along just fine in whatever hell they both deserve to reside in. Maybe the Gipper and General Pinochet can give the twisted old fascist crone a good spit-roasting.

Moonpig

A cow who managed to further polarize communities in Ireland, responsible for the deaths of countless people, let a fellow MP starve to death.

The world is a better place without her and worse for having had her. She deserves the same level of peace she afforded others, and if there is indeed a hell, it is under new management.

FinsburyParkCarrots

veddertown wrote:

Most of the quotes I've read on here and on Facebook in the last couple of days are from people who either weren't:

1. Paying taxes.
2. Wiping their own arses.
3. From families left struggling under her reign.
4. Born.

Speaking as someone who was of voting age and eligible to pay Poll Tax under Thatcher's reign, I can say that those kids on Facebook are still Thatcher's children. The policies she championed are painfully active and blighting the economy of a country deregulated and stripped of vital industries, national services and raw materials in pursuit of boom and bust.

Blair only continued Thatcher's ideas, and the Bullingdon brigade of Cameron and Osborne seem determined to carry her doctrine through to its outmoded but (il)logical conclusion. Where there's failed, jingoistic, backward-looking education policies and leaking school roofs, Thatcher's alive. Where there's mass unemployment and victimisation of 'benefits culture', Thatcher's alive. While bankers get bonuses, Thatcher's alive. While the health service gets sold off, bit by bit, and insurance companies salivate, Thatcher's alive.

Thatcher will keep having children beyond the grave, until Thatcherism's a thing of the past.

pandora

polar opinions is something we can always count on and I have a sneaking suspicion
the truth is found somewhere in the middle

FinsburyParkCarrots

pandora wrote:

polar opinions is something we can always count on and I have a sneaking suspicion
the truth is found somewhere in the middle

That's a rather un-Thatcherite proposition, pandora!

Digital Twilight

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

veddertown wrote:

Most of the quotes I've read on here and on Facebook in the last couple of days are from people who either weren't:

1. Paying taxes.
2. Wiping their own arses.
3. From families left struggling under her reign.
4. Born.

Speaking as someone who was of voting age and eligible to pay Poll Tax under Thatcher's reign, I can say that those kids on Facebook are still Thatcher's children. The policies she championed are painfully active and blighting the economy of a country deregulated and stripped of vital industries, national services and raw materials in pursuit of boom and bust.

Blair only continued Thatcher's ideas, and the Bullingdon brigade of Cameron and Osborne seem determined to carry her doctrine through to its outmoded but (il)logical conclusion. Where there's failed, jingoistic, backward-looking education policies and leaking school roofs, Thatcher's alive. Where there's mass unemployment and victimisation of 'benefits culture', Thatcher's alive. While bankers get bonuses, Thatcher's alive. While the health service gets sold off, bit by bit, and insurance companies salivate, Thatcher's alive.

Thatcher will keep having children beyond the grave, until Thatcherism's a thing of the past.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Brilliant post. Thatcher's tyranny extends far beyond her own reign. Even if you weren't born in that era people can still see what she did to their parents, their society and their future. The current government is only carrying out her ideological scorched earth policies and AGAIN a generation of children are going to be lost thanks to the uncompassionate devestation to our services, jobs and education while boosting the pockets of the rich.

These are not 'mistakes' but the world they wish to construct and every government since has carried out those ideologies just in varies degrees and intensity. Politicians should not be allowed to lie, steal and attack the vulnerable and be 'let off' for it. No major political party has the interest of the general population at heart only those of with large wealth and ownership. Too many people live their lives in a 'auto cruise' mode and fail to hold our politicians to account. No political party has the country's future at heart, they cannot see past their next term of office and it is crippling our future while other nations evolve Britain is running the risk of stagnating and falling behind.

Time to chose something new.

pandora

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

pandora wrote:

polar opinions is something we can always count on and I have a sneaking suspicion
the truth is found somewhere in the middle

That's a rather un-Thatcherite proposition, pandora!

yeah she is a politician