My Nephew's Bible Class project

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I am so sad. I went over last night and helped my nephew with his project. it went about as expected. he looked at me like I was an alien for not believing the same thing he and his parents do.

ever had a religious 16 year old look down their nose at you?

when I told him I believe in a "force", he asked "like Luke Skywalker?".

that was over with, but then my brother and I got into a discussion about god and all that. I found out during this discussion that he basically believes that homosexuality is a disease and it can be cured through a relationship with god. I was utterly shocked. And disgusted. And he did what most theists who hold these strong opinions I find do; he quoted the bible directly when stating his belief that man shall not lay with another man, but when I asked him about some of the other antiquated bullshit in the bible, all of a sudden "you can't take everything so literally".

he also said he doesn't understand people who call themselves christians but don't go to church/gather with other christians. He said one of the main purposes of being a christian is coming together to worship and help each other and all that, and that if you don't do that, you aren't a "true christian". I tried to explain to him that a lot of people are very private in their faith and aren't comfortable worshipping and sharing in public/with others, but he thinks that's garbage.

it was a respectful discussion, but I felt part of our relationship died last night. I told my wife I don't think I can ever be close with someone who is a bigot. to me this is no different than if he told me that he hated black people.

he's just such an intelligent guy. It's a running joke in our family that he's Cliff Claven, because he knows so much about nothing and everything. But he's a bigot. I lost so much respect for him last night.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Cosmo wrote:

At around age 16... you start to wonder about the things you are taught by your adults.

I found out last night he questions nothing. he's a sheep.

Jeanwah

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I am so sad. I went over last night and helped my nephew with his project. it went about as expected. he looked at me like I was an alien for not believing the same thing he and his parents do.

ever had a religious 16 year old look down their nose at you?

when I told him I believe in a "force", he asked "like Luke Skywalker?".

that was over with, but then my brother and I got into a discussion about god and all that. I found out during this discussion that he basically believes that homosexuality is a disease and it can be cured through a relationship with god. I was utterly shocked. And disgusted. And he did what most theists who hold these strong opinions I find do; he quoted the bible directly when stating his belief that man shall not lay with another man, but when I asked him about some of the other antiquated bullshit in the bible, all of a sudden "you can't take everything so literally".

he also said he doesn't understand people who call themselves christians but don't go to church/gather with other christians. He said one of the main purposes of being a christian is coming together to worship and help each other and all that, and that if you don't do that, you aren't a "true christian". I tried to explain to him that a lot of people are very private in their faith and aren't comfortable worshipping and sharing in public/with others, but he thinks that's garbage.

it was a respectful discussion, but I felt part of our relationship died last night. I told my wife I don't think I can ever be close with someone who is a bigot. to me this is no different than if he told me that he hated black people.

he's just such an intelligent guy. It's a running joke in our family that he's Cliff Claven, because he knows so much about nothing and everything. But he's a bigot. I lost so much respect for him last night.

Sheesh, that's tough. It sounds like it was a nice discussion; but did he listen to your perspective as you listened to his? And your nephew is young (and pretty sheltered). He'll probably get his chance to open his mind once in college or away from his parents. Don't give up hope on him, he has a better chance of opening his mind since he's young and learning.

hedonist

Wow. I'm sorry to hear of this, HFD. I hope your nephew comes around in time.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Jeanwah wrote:

Sheesh, that's tough. It sounds like it was a nice discussion; but did he listen to your perspective as you listened to his? And your nephew is young (and pretty sheltered). He'll probably get his chance to open his mind once in college or away from his parents. Don't give up hope on him, he has a better chance of opening his mind since he's young and learning.

yes, he did. there were even a couple times where he looked up and said "hmmm.....good question". But in the end, his belief is unwavering that the christian faith is currently unpopular/under attack from the left. he says he dosen't think that believing homosexuality is wrong is being hateful, but he says as soon as you say that to anyone you are labelled as such, which is true, because, let's face it, that's what it is.

heaven forbid my nephew ends up being homosexual. I really honestly felt that he had been brainwashed. And I politely made mention of this to my brother, but I used the word "indoctrination". I said that one problem I have with organized religion is that it's taught as fact from a very young age, basically from birth. so I went through a very confusing phase as a young adult, knowing something was amiss, but then trying to reconcile that with the possibility that I was raised by liars. my brother said that since his belief is that god is fact, and that god is about love, why would he not want to share that with his son? but to me, "sharing" is quite different from making them learn about it in school and forcing them to study a big book.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

hedonist wrote:

Wow. I'm sorry to hear of this, HFD. I hope your nephew comes around in time.

I don't even want him to change his beliefs if that's who he is. All I want is for him to make his own decisions. Mind you, I was kind of like him still at that age. I was struggling with it at that point, but still on the theist side of things.

what sort of made me laugh throughout all of this, is I was beginning to feel bombarded and hypnotized, as my brother's wife got in the act at one point. it felt as though they were trying to convince me, preach to me, if you will, that if I truly wanted to find god, I would.

I said, "with all due respect, if truly wanted to find the boogeyman,I could probably do that too". I said I'm not looking for god, because I don't believe he exists. I don't need to believe he exists. and of course I got the "that makes me sad" pity trip when I said I almost wished I believed there was an afterlife, because death for atheists and agnostics is the end. I have no comfort in believing I'll ever see my loved ones again.

anyway, it went around and around in circles for about an hour or so, much like it does here, minus the personal attacks and facepalms.

he thanked me for being gracious enough to help his son with his project. But I was still really depressed on the way home.

hedonist

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

hedonist wrote:

Wow. I'm sorry to hear of this, HFD. I hope your nephew comes around in time.

I don't even want him to change his beliefs if that's who he is. All I want is for him to make his own decisions. Mind you, I was kind of like him still at that age. I was struggling with it at that point, but still on the theist side of things.

anyway, it went around and around in circles for about an hour or so, much like it does here, minus the personal attacks and facepalms.

That's what I meant by "comes around" - believing with openmindedness...if that makes sense.

Last part up there made me smile.

pandora

After caring for many of other people's kids because of the failings in families,
I find it really wonderful this young adult believes in his parents, in his religious upbringing,
in God. This may save him and his parents much trouble, worry, and poor choices.
As far as his father not accepting homosexuality why should he?
Why should anyone give up their personal beliefs to suit others?
Withholding love and acceptance based on another's beliefs is no different
than a bigot who does the same for race or sexual preference.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

After caring for many of other people's kids because of the failings in families,
I find it really wonderful this young adult believes in his parents, in his religious upbringing,
in God. This may save him and his parents much trouble, worry, and poor choices.
As far as his father not accepting homosexuality why should he?
Why should anyone give up their personal beliefs to suit others?
Withholding love and acceptance based on another's beliefs is no different
than a bigot who does the same for race or sexual preference.

I love him. I always will. I am withholding nothing. But our relationship cannnot be the same based on his beliefs anymore than I'd have a good relationship with a racist family member.

and it's orientation, not preference.

religious upbringing does not guarantee, not by a LONG shot, that he won't get into trouble or make poor choices.

it's not about giving up your beliefs to suit others. it's about being hypocritical in the face of the christian message. I highly doubt the jesus potrayed by christians would advocate for bigotry against homosexuals.

JonnyPistachio

pandora wrote:

After caring for many of other people's kids because of the failings in families,
I find it really wonderful this young adult believes in his parents, in his religious upbringing,
in God. This may save him and his parents much trouble, worry, and poor choices.
As far as his father not accepting homosexuality why should he?
Why should anyone give up their personal beliefs to suit others?
Withholding love and acceptance based on another's beliefs is no different
than a bigot who does the same for race or sexual preference.

What I find concerning is that he thinks homosexuality is a disease and can be cured through a relationship with God. Maybe it's just me, but teaching that to your kids can be very harmful. You think teaching religion can prevent trouble, worry, and poor choices? Well, this kind of harmful thinking and small-mindedness is not healthy. As HFD said, his brother picks and chooses what he wants to believe according to the Bible, likely to fit his agenda. He dislikes homosexuals and doesnt think they deserve to live their lives in a particular way.. expressing that to your kid could be perceived as bad parenting.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

This may save him and his parents much trouble, worry, and poor choices.

I know plenty of religious people who grew up, and still do, believing in god, and being on good terms with their parents who STILL made plenty of poor choices in their lives.

they're called humans.

lukin2006

Why are people surprised by his beliefs? He is surrounded by religion day and night ... it's probably all he knows. I call it brainwashing more than anything ...

2 things that family probably should not discuss politics and religion ... you are probably not going to change their minds and they'll likely not change your minds.

My mother in law is a a convenient jesus freak ( as I think most are) ... she is ready to preach her views on you in a moments notice just don't bring up the possibility that when your 6 feet under you're just taking a long dirt nap ... she doesn't like that.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

lukin2006 wrote:

Why are people surprised by his beliefs? He is surrounded by religion day and night ... it's probably all he knows. I call it brainwashing more than anything ...

2 things that family probably should not discuss politics and religion ... you are probably not going to change their minds and they'll likely not change your minds.

My mother in law is a a convenient jesus freak ( as I think most are) ... she is ready to preach her views on you in a moments notice just don't bring up the possibility that when your 6 feet under you're just taking a long dirt nap ... she doesn't like that.

I wasn't looking to change his mind nor do I believe he was trying to change mine. I think we were just trying to understand each other. His wife, in my opinion, has always been the "preacher".

pandora

I think parenting, strong family values and bonds can prevent trouble,
worry and poor choices.
I think this family is displaying this through their beliefs and their religion.
Certainly nothing wrong with that. Well unless someone is religiophobic.

When one has a disease it is out of their control. You didn't ask for the disease,
often born with the disease.
Looking at the belief from a positive point of view, not negatively, one can understand where
those who believe this are coming from. I find it not the least bit harmful
if compassion and understanding are taught. I find it more harmful to assume or preceive
someone doesn't "like" a group of people based on their religious beliefs.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

I think parenting, strong family values and bonds can prevent trouble,
worry and poor choices.
I think this family is displaying this through their beliefs and their religion.
Certainly nothing wrong with that. Well unless someone is religiophobic.

When one has a disease it is out of their control. You didn't ask for the disease,
often born with the disease.
Looking at the belief from a positive point of view, not negatively, one can understand where
those who believe this are coming from. I find it not the least bit harmful
if compassion and understanding are taught. I find it more harmful to assume or preceive
someone doesn't "like" a group of people based on their religious beliefs.

I'm not assuming anything. He told me straight out that homosexuality is wrong and is curable. that's the definition bigotry. look it up. how can you say teaching bigotry to your child is ok?

JonnyPistachio

pandora wrote:

I think parenting, strong family values and bonds can prevent trouble,
worry and poor choices.
I think this family is displaying this through their beliefs and their religion.
Certainly nothing wrong with that. Well unless someone is religiophobic.

When one has a disease it is out of their control. You didn't ask for the disease,
often born with the disease.
Looking at the belief from a positive point of view, not negatively, one can understand where
those who believe this are coming from. I find it not the least bit harmful
if compassion and understanding are taught. I find it more harmful to assume or preceive
someone doesn't "like" a group of people based on their religious beliefs.

I probably shouldnt have assumed, but yeah, you can kinda take from it what you want. Personally i think teaching your kid bigotry is pretty bad, though he might still be OK. Alot of kids learn from social situations, and this kind of bigotry is dying off I think.. HFD sums it up here:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I'm not assuming anything. He told me straight out that homosexuality is wrong and is curable. that's the definition bigotry. look it up. how can you say teaching bigotry to your child is ok?

hedonist

pandora wrote:

When one has a disease it is out of their control. You didn't ask for the disease,
often born with the disease.

Cancer
HIV
Homosexuality
Diabetes

One of these things is not like the others.

hedonist

*after-edit: apologies to HFD - I shouldn't have strayed from the original topic; just had to address the disease aspect.

I think I'm done now

redrock

hedonist wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

hedonist wrote:

Wow. I'm sorry to hear of this, HFD. I hope your nephew comes around in time.

I don't even want him to change his beliefs if that's who he is. All I want is for him to make his own decisions. Mind you, I was kind of like him still at that age. I was struggling with it at that point, but still on the theist side of things.

anyway, it went around and around in circles for about an hour or so, much like it does here, minus the personal attacks and facepalms.

That's what I meant by "comes around" - believing with openmindedness...if that makes sense.

Last part up there made me smile.

Agree with Hedonist - your nephew is still young. Sure he has been sheltered, 'indoctrinated' (for lack of better word) perhaps but eventually he will be leaving this more controlled environment and heading off to university and making a life of his own, discovering, mingling with a variety of people whilst, hopefully, having an open mind. Hopefully he will be able to see that the more negative part of these teachings are just plain wrong and have no place in society - just like any fanaticism in any religion.

I feel for you, though, discovering some 'home truths' about your brother and thus 'realigning' your relationship with him. So disappointing and sad, I would think.

pandora

I see bigotry against the religious all the time.

Here we have people, the faithful, who are following the word of God
with compassion and understanding though they are perceived by nonbelievers
as not 'liking or accepting others', when in fact they are only following the words
they believe to be true.
What is the excuse for the bigots attacking them? What is the excuse for the many who say
the religious must change their beliefs to suit others ? That their children must get with it?
Deny what they have learned from loving parents? from their Bible.

I would think it is reason for celebration to have a 16 year old with strong morals
as appears here. Who is learning compassion and understanding, within his religious guidance,
learning more than he is receiving in return that's for sure.