This may save him and his parents much trouble, worry, and poor choices.
I know plenty of religious people who grew up, and still do, believing in god, and being on good terms with their parents who STILL made plenty of poor choices in their lives.
they're called humans.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Why are people surprised by his beliefs? He is surrounded by religion day and night ... it's probably all he knows. I call it brainwashing more than anything ...
2 things that family probably should not discuss politics and religion ... you are probably not going to change their minds and they'll likely not change your minds.
My mother in law is a a convenient jesus freak ( as I think most are) ... she is ready to preach her views on you in a moments notice just don't bring up the possibility that when your 6 feet under you're just taking a long dirt nap ... she doesn't like that.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Why are people surprised by his beliefs? He is surrounded by religion day and night ... it's probably all he knows. I call it brainwashing more than anything ...
2 things that family probably should not discuss politics and religion ... you are probably not going to change their minds and they'll likely not change your minds.
My mother in law is a a convenient jesus freak ( as I think most are) ... she is ready to preach her views on you in a moments notice just don't bring up the possibility that when your 6 feet under you're just taking a long dirt nap ... she doesn't like that.
I wasn't looking to change his mind nor do I believe he was trying to change mine. I think we were just trying to understand each other. His wife, in my opinion, has always been the "preacher".
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I think parenting, strong family values and bonds can prevent trouble,
worry and poor choices.
I think this family is displaying this through their beliefs and their religion.
Certainly nothing wrong with that. Well unless someone is religiophobic.
When one has a disease it is out of their control. You didn't ask for the disease,
often born with the disease.
Looking at the belief from a positive point of view, not negatively, one can understand where
those who believe this are coming from. I find it not the least bit harmful
if compassion and understanding are taught. I find it more harmful to assume or preceive
someone doesn't "like" a group of people based on their religious beliefs.
I think parenting, strong family values and bonds can prevent trouble,
worry and poor choices.
I think this family is displaying this through their beliefs and their religion.
Certainly nothing wrong with that. Well unless someone is religiophobic.
When one has a disease it is out of their control. You didn't ask for the disease,
often born with the disease.
Looking at the belief from a positive point of view, not negatively, one can understand where
those who believe this are coming from. I find it not the least bit harmful
if compassion and understanding are taught. I find it more harmful to assume or preceive
someone doesn't "like" a group of people based on their religious beliefs.
I'm not assuming anything. He told me straight out that homosexuality is wrong and is curable. that's the definition bigotry. look it up. how can you say teaching bigotry to your child is ok?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I think parenting, strong family values and bonds can prevent trouble,
worry and poor choices.
I think this family is displaying this through their beliefs and their religion.
Certainly nothing wrong with that. Well unless someone is religiophobic.
When one has a disease it is out of their control. You didn't ask for the disease,
often born with the disease.
Looking at the belief from a positive point of view, not negatively, one can understand where
those who believe this are coming from. I find it not the least bit harmful
if compassion and understanding are taught. I find it more harmful to assume or preceive
someone doesn't "like" a group of people based on their religious beliefs.
I probably shouldnt have assumed, but yeah, you can kinda take from it what you want. Personally i think teaching your kid bigotry is pretty bad, though he might still be OK. Alot of kids learn from social situations, and this kind of bigotry is dying off I think.. HFD sums it up here:
I'm not assuming anything. He told me straight out that homosexuality is wrong and is curable. that's the definition bigotry. look it up. how can you say teaching bigotry to your child is ok?
Wow. I'm sorry to hear of this, HFD. I hope your nephew comes around in time.
I don't even want him to change his beliefs if that's who he is. All I want is for him to make his own decisions. Mind you, I was kind of like him still at that age. I was struggling with it at that point, but still on the theist side of things.
anyway, it went around and around in circles for about an hour or so, much like it does here, minus the personal attacks and facepalms.
That's what I meant by "comes around" - believing with openmindedness...if that makes sense.
Last part up there made me smile.
Agree with Hedonist - your nephew is still young. Sure he has been sheltered, 'indoctrinated' (for lack of better word) perhaps but eventually he will be leaving this more controlled environment and heading off to university and making a life of his own, discovering, mingling with a variety of people whilst, hopefully, having an open mind. Hopefully he will be able to see that the more negative part of these teachings are just plain wrong and have no place in society - just like any fanaticism in any religion.
I feel for you, though, discovering some 'home truths' about your brother and thus 'realigning' your relationship with him. So disappointing and sad, I would think.
Here we have people, the faithful, who are following the word of God
with compassion and understanding though they are perceived by nonbelievers
as not 'liking or accepting others', when in fact they are only following the words
they believe to be true.
What is the excuse for the bigots attacking them? What is the excuse for the many who say
the religious must change their beliefs to suit others ? That their children must get with it?
Deny what they have learned from loving parents? from their Bible.
I would think it is reason for celebration to have a 16 year old with strong morals
as appears here. Who is learning compassion and understanding, within his religious guidance,
learning more than he is receiving in return that's for sure.
So the we are all children of god but only jesus was a very rare conception? Odd that one is. Anyhoooo,I wonder if your nephew thinks that Aids came from a man having sex with a monkey? Or if it was put upon the gays by god?
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
So the we are all children of god but only jesus was a very rare conception? Odd that one is. Anyhoooo,I wonder if your nephew thinks that Aids came from a man having sex with a monkey? Or if it was put upon the gays by god?
The Church did say AIDS was retribution but it's OK because it can be cured by prayer, it would seem.
There is nothing wrong about religious teachings but when these show a flagrant disregard to common sense, medical (and common) knowledge targeting certain groups of people calling them 'destestable', 'an abomination', 'disgusting', basing themselves on a book written centuries ago by loads of different people with various agendas, that is plain bigotry. There is no love/compassion here. Maybe just an excuse to be able to express one's innate bigotry under the guise of 'the good word/book'?
It is not only wrong, but dangerous. Homosexuality is just one example in this book.
Here we have people, the faithful, who are following the word of God
with compassion and understanding though they are perceived by nonbelievers
as not 'liking or accepting others', when in fact they are only following the words
they believe to be true.
What is the excuse for the bigots attacking them? What is the excuse for the many who say
the religious must change their beliefs to suit others ? That their children must get with it?
Deny what they have learned from loving parents? from their Bible.
I would think it is reason for celebration to have a 16 year old with strong morals
as appears here. Who is learning compassion and understanding, within his religious guidance,
learning more than he is receiving in return that's for sure.
Did you see that HFD said that his brother does not follow the Bible in other passsages, and disregarded it saying, you cant take it literally? He's not following the word of God, he's picking and choosing what he likes. That IS NOT following the word of God with "compassion and understanding" whatsoever.
I dont think they should change, I just think its sad and somewhat pathetic that anyone would tell their child that a homosexual is diseased and is curable through God.
Here we have people, the faithful, who are following the word of God
with compassion and understanding though they are perceived by nonbelievers
as not 'liking or accepting others', when in fact they are only following the words
they believe to be true.
What is the excuse for the bigots attacking them? What is the excuse for the many who say
the religious must change their beliefs to suit others ? That their children must get with it?
Deny what they have learned from loving parents? from their Bible.
I would think it is reason for celebration to have a 16 year old with strong morals
as appears here. Who is learning compassion and understanding, within his religious guidance,
learning more than he is receiving in return that's for sure.
yes, let's all celebrate the raising of more bigots!
I'm going to be done with this thread and have it locked so we don't go down this road again.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I've seen threads on this very forum wherein people who self-report as atheist or agnostic don't seem to understand the difference. Or at least are being intellectually dishonest about which they are.
Not at all shocking to find a 16 year old who can't explain the nuances.
With due respect, being unable to differentiate between the two isn't tantamount to not knowing the term to begin with. I know though that 16 is still a tender age (not that they all aren't in some way!).
That said - and granted I've been back on the boards here only for a little over a year - but I haven't seen anyone describe themselves as one or the other with confusion (or dishonesty! - that seems pointless). I have, however, seen some shift in their views over time (myself included).
Haha, nothing respectful usually comes after the phrase "with due respect..." It's like "No offense intended....but your mother's a cantankerous whore."
Of course I've read enough of Hedonist's posts in this forum to know that offense was in fact sincerely not intended.
However -- and perhaps I misinterpreted OP -- but he never said the kid hadn't heard the word before, just that he couldn't define it. To me, being able to define something is definitely tantamount to being able to differentiate it from other similar or related concepts. Otherwise the definition is pretty thin.
Regarding other threads/comments about people's agnostic or atheistic beliefs, I certainly can't quote the thread or link, but if memory serves it was related to someone who said they were atheist but were trying to create a framework wherein that didn’t qualify as a belief system or religion. It was a while ago, so it’s a bit hazy. I think it culminated in their asking the other person for proof god exists. To me, if proof is required, you’re a bit of an agnostic. Unfortunately I can’t search my posts for the thread because I didn’t participate in the conversation. I tend to avoid debating people’s specific beliefs. Do enjoy discussing the topic in a general sense, however.
Just a little story... my cousin is gay, and it was just something we knew since we were younger. My aunt (my cousin's mother) was told the truth by my cousin that he was gay I think in his early 20s. We're a catholic family. Because my aunt couldn't handle the truth, there was about a ten year estrangement between her and her son. She eventually came around... after 10+ years.
Is this the kind of living that's tolerable? Insistence on a belief that's not only full of hatred, but can blow up families, if not temporarily, forever? It's fear that these religious folk have, not an obedience to the Bible. And it ruins families, friends, people.
There are many things in this world sad and pathetic.
For me personally that is not at the top of the list.
When you understand where the teaching comes from it is anything but.
I find giving others negative motives to be sad and pathetic.
That is not being understanding or compassionate and it assumes the worst.
As far as picking and choosing that is interpretation. It is what speaks to us.
We all interpret things around us whether we are Bible readers or not, believers or not.
For me that is no reflection on motive, nor should one conclude something negative.
As far as 'gathering' I do agree with the father of this young man in that dedication
to Jesus and to other human beings is all important. Sacrifice, daily giving, is the true
Christian way. I admire his devotion to God and his family.... his entire Christian family.
Just a little story... my cousin is gay, and it was just something we knew since we were younger. My aunt (my cousin's mother) was told the truth by my cousin that he was gay I think in his early 20s. We're a catholic family. Because my aunt couldn't handle the truth, there was about a ten year estrangement between her and her son. She eventually came around... after 10+ years.
Is this the kind of living that's tolerable? Insistence on a belief that's not only full of hatred, but can blow up families, if not temporarily, forever? It's fear that these religious folk have, not an obedience to the Bible. And it ruins families, friends, people.
well said Jean. Thanks.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
There are many things in this world sad and pathetic.
For me personally that is not at the top of the list.
When you understand where the teaching comes from it is anything but.
I find giving others negative motives to be sad and pathetic.
That is not being understanding or compassionate and it assumes the worst.
As far as picking and choosing that is interpretation. It is what speaks to us.
We all interpret things around us whether we are Bible readers or not, believers or not.
For me that is no reflection on motive, nor should one conclude something negative.
As far as 'gathering' I do agree with the father of this young man in that dedication
to Jesus and to other human beings is all important. Sacrifice, daily giving, is the true
Christian way. I admire his devotion to God and his family.... his entire Christian family.
disguising bigotry in love doesn't make it any less hateful.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Just a little story... my cousin is gay, and it was just something we knew since we were younger. My aunt (my cousin's mother) was told the truth by my cousin that he was gay I think in his early 20s. We're a catholic family. Because my aunt couldn't handle the truth, there was about a ten year estrangement between her and her son. She eventually came around... after 10+ years.
Is this the kind of living that's tolerable? Insistence on a belief that's not only full of hatred, but can blow up families, if not temporarily, forever? It's fear that these religious folk have, not an obedience to the Bible. And it ruins families, friends, people.
Did she ask god why it delivered a son to her that was gay? Did she wonder if anything was wrong with her DNA? A couple of others that I won't list here.
Now I can see religion teaching you to hate a total stranger for being gay, but your own son. geez :?
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
disguising bigotry in love doesn't make it any less hateful.
A lot of 'hate' is present under the guise of religion, attempting to pass it as virtue and compassion (eg showing 'the path' to those misguided...). Discussions with fanatics are huge eye-openers (with all radical, not just Christians).
Just a little story... my cousin is gay, and it was just something we knew since we were younger. My aunt (my cousin's mother) was told the truth by my cousin that he was gay I think in his early 20s. We're a catholic family. Because my aunt couldn't handle the truth, there was about a ten year estrangement between her and her son. She eventually came around... after 10+ years.
Is this the kind of living that's tolerable? Insistence on a belief that's not only full of hatred, but can blow up families, if not temporarily, forever? It's fear that these religious folk have, not an obedience to the Bible. And it ruins families, friends, people.
Did she ask god why it delivered a son to her that was gay? Did she wonder if anything was wrong with her DNA? A couple of others that I won't list here.
Now I can see religion teaching you to hate a total stranger for being gay, but your own son. geez :?
Uh, I don't know what she thought, I was just a kid at the time.
That's the point: why is it ok to judge others - strangers, people not in your immediate circle - but when it's your family it's a whole nother story? Why does something have to hit close to home to get one to really question the way we think? It shouldn't have to be that way.
Comments
I know plenty of religious people who grew up, and still do, believing in god, and being on good terms with their parents who STILL made plenty of poor choices in their lives.
they're called humans.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
2 things that family probably should not discuss politics and religion ... you are probably not going to change their minds and they'll likely not change your minds.
My mother in law is a a convenient jesus freak ( as I think most are) ... she is ready to preach her views on you in a moments notice just don't bring up the possibility that when your 6 feet under you're just taking a long dirt nap
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I wasn't looking to change his mind nor do I believe he was trying to change mine. I think we were just trying to understand each other. His wife, in my opinion, has always been the "preacher".
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
worry and poor choices.
I think this family is displaying this through their beliefs and their religion.
Certainly nothing wrong with that. Well unless someone is religiophobic.
When one has a disease it is out of their control. You didn't ask for the disease,
often born with the disease.
Looking at the belief from a positive point of view, not negatively, one can understand where
those who believe this are coming from. I find it not the least bit harmful
if compassion and understanding are taught. I find it more harmful to assume or preceive
someone doesn't "like" a group of people based on their religious beliefs.
I'm not assuming anything. He told me straight out that homosexuality is wrong and is curable. that's the definition bigotry. look it up. how can you say teaching bigotry to your child is ok?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I probably shouldnt have assumed, but yeah, you can kinda take from it what you want. Personally i think teaching your kid bigotry is pretty bad, though he might still be OK. Alot of kids learn from social situations, and this kind of bigotry is dying off I think.. HFD sums it up here:
HIV
Homosexuality
Diabetes
One of these things is not like the others.
I think I'm done now
Agree with Hedonist - your nephew is still young. Sure he has been sheltered, 'indoctrinated' (for lack of better word) perhaps but eventually he will be leaving this more controlled environment and heading off to university and making a life of his own, discovering, mingling with a variety of people whilst, hopefully, having an open mind. Hopefully he will be able to see that the more negative part of these teachings are just plain wrong and have no place in society - just like any fanaticism in any religion.
I feel for you, though, discovering some 'home truths' about your brother and thus 'realigning' your relationship with him. So disappointing and sad, I would think.
Here we have people, the faithful, who are following the word of God
with compassion and understanding though they are perceived by nonbelievers
as not 'liking or accepting others', when in fact they are only following the words
they believe to be true.
What is the excuse for the bigots attacking them? What is the excuse for the many who say
the religious must change their beliefs to suit others ? That their children must get with it?
Deny what they have learned from loving parents? from their Bible.
I would think it is reason for celebration to have a 16 year old with strong morals
as appears here. Who is learning compassion and understanding, within his religious guidance,
learning more than he is receiving in return that's for sure.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
The Church did say AIDS was retribution but it's OK because it can be cured by prayer, it would seem.
There is nothing wrong about religious teachings but when these show a flagrant disregard to common sense, medical (and common) knowledge targeting certain groups of people calling them 'destestable', 'an abomination', 'disgusting', basing themselves on a book written centuries ago by loads of different people with various agendas, that is plain bigotry. There is no love/compassion here. Maybe just an excuse to be able to express one's innate bigotry under the guise of 'the good word/book'?
It is not only wrong, but dangerous. Homosexuality is just one example in this book.
Did you see that HFD said that his brother does not follow the Bible in other passsages, and disregarded it saying, you cant take it literally? He's not following the word of God, he's picking and choosing what he likes. That IS NOT following the word of God with "compassion and understanding" whatsoever.
I dont think they should change, I just think its sad and somewhat pathetic that anyone would tell their child that a homosexual is diseased and is curable through God.
yes, let's all celebrate the raising of more bigots!
I'm going to be done with this thread and have it locked so we don't go down this road again.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Of course I've read enough of Hedonist's posts in this forum to know that offense was in fact sincerely not intended.
However -- and perhaps I misinterpreted OP -- but he never said the kid hadn't heard the word before, just that he couldn't define it. To me, being able to define something is definitely tantamount to being able to differentiate it from other similar or related concepts. Otherwise the definition is pretty thin.
Regarding other threads/comments about people's agnostic or atheistic beliefs, I certainly can't quote the thread or link, but if memory serves it was related to someone who said they were atheist but were trying to create a framework wherein that didn’t qualify as a belief system or religion. It was a while ago, so it’s a bit hazy. I think it culminated in their asking the other person for proof god exists. To me, if proof is required, you’re a bit of an agnostic. Unfortunately I can’t search my posts for the thread because I didn’t participate in the conversation. I tend to avoid debating people’s specific beliefs. Do enjoy discussing the topic in a general sense, however.
Is this the kind of living that's tolerable? Insistence on a belief that's not only full of hatred, but can blow up families, if not temporarily, forever? It's fear that these religious folk have, not an obedience to the Bible. And it ruins families, friends, people.
For me personally that is not at the top of the list.
When you understand where the teaching comes from it is anything but.
I find giving others negative motives to be sad and pathetic.
That is not being understanding or compassionate and it assumes the worst.
As far as picking and choosing that is interpretation. It is what speaks to us.
We all interpret things around us whether we are Bible readers or not, believers or not.
For me that is no reflection on motive, nor should one conclude something negative.
As far as 'gathering' I do agree with the father of this young man in that dedication
to Jesus and to other human beings is all important. Sacrifice, daily giving, is the true
Christian way. I admire his devotion to God and his family.... his entire Christian family.
well said Jean. Thanks.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
disguising bigotry in love doesn't make it any less hateful.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Did she ask god why it delivered a son to her that was gay? Did she wonder if anything was wrong with her DNA? A couple of others that I won't list here.
Now I can see religion teaching you to hate a total stranger for being gay, but your own son. geez :?
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
A lot of 'hate' is present under the guise of religion, attempting to pass it as virtue and compassion (eg showing 'the path' to those misguided...). Discussions with fanatics are huge eye-openers (with all radical, not just Christians).
Uh, I don't know what she thought, I was just a kid at the time.
That's the point: why is it ok to judge others - strangers, people not in your immediate circle - but when it's your family it's a whole nother story? Why does something have to hit close to home to get one to really question the way we think? It shouldn't have to be that way.