My Nephew's Bible Class project
Hugh Freaking Dillon
Posts: 14,010
he called me up and told me his bible class has a project where they have to ask 10 people the same question: "what is God to you?". I told him "well, it's interesting that you are asking me, as I'm agnostic".
PAUSE.
I ask him "do you know what 'agnostic' means?". He says he does not. I tell him what it means, and ask him if he still wants me to be the subject of his question, and he says he does, so ok, I'm going over to his place on Tuesday to give him my answer (his teacher says she prefers them to conduct the question/answer in person).
He's nearly 16, in grade 10. He's been in a private religious school all his life. I find it interesting that he didn't know the meaning of agnostic. He knew what atheism is.
Shouldn't this have come up at some point in class over the last 10 years?
PAUSE.
I ask him "do you know what 'agnostic' means?". He says he does not. I tell him what it means, and ask him if he still wants me to be the subject of his question, and he says he does, so ok, I'm going over to his place on Tuesday to give him my answer (his teacher says she prefers them to conduct the question/answer in person).
He's nearly 16, in grade 10. He's been in a private religious school all his life. I find it interesting that he didn't know the meaning of agnostic. He knew what atheism is.
Shouldn't this have come up at some point in class over the last 10 years?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
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I hope you enjoy your chat and the young man gains some insight from it.
Remember, if you have PJ in your soul...who the fuck needs a God...we have Mike
He's probably going to say that he really would like for the earth to be the center of the universe and created by a divine entity that was always just kind of sitting there waiting to create something... but that's really hard to believe.
that I don't believe in god in the traditional christian sense. I believe there is a force (no, not the Star Wars kind), and it may be nature, it may be something else entirely. But I don't believe we were created by a supreme being that needed a rest on sunday.
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I agree. I asked him point blank "is this a multi-faith question", and he said "yes, it is", so I applaud that for sure.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Yes, I think it should have. I can't help but wonder at how many other useful and important things may be missing from you nephew's and other kid's education. Quite a few, no doubt.
Exactly. This is a good exercise I think.
Sometimes it bugs me when kids are forced into ONE thing without experiencing or thinking about what else is out there.
Just curious did your nephew get a choice at 16 weather he wanted to continue in religious school or go to some other type school.
My answer would be one word I think its total bullshit. Thats just me though.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
A great exercise for a young adult. This will really get the kids thinking and feeling.
(btw, your answer makes sense to me, HFD)
this is kind of unfair, just because he says that he never heard the term agnostic doesn't mean that he was not taught it. I went to a catholic school and was taught about the term agnostic.
The one thing I remember in one religion class was the priest asking us all WHY we believed in God. None of us had the right answer; all we came up with is "Our parents do, school taught us, etc." It was the one time where we were taught to open our minds as to question why we believe what we do. That was 10th grade.
I didn't know what agnosticism was until after high school. Like I said, I was very sheltered, and that's part of going to parochial school.
I highly doubt it. Most people just don't know the difference between atheism and agnostic.
be able to relate to some degree to retain .
Now the personal exchange required in this project will probably have lasting effects.
We have on our am news teachers of the week and some of the skills they have are so creative to get kids to care and learn. Kudos to all our great teachers be they in Parochial, Private or Public schools.
Not at all shocking to find a 16 year old who can't explain the nuances.
That said - and granted I've been back on the boards here only for a little over a year - but I haven't seen anyone describe themselves as one or the other with confusion (or dishonesty! - that seems pointless). I have, however, seen some shift in their views over time (myself included).
I wouldn't have been surprised had he not been clear on the difference. But he hadn't even ever heard the word.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
You've also started to figure out things like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson being slave owners... F.D.R. wasn't out to 'Save the Jews'... and the Indians were only trying to fight off the coming wagons that claimed God's land as their own. So, even though those teachers told you lies that made sense... it's sort of okay because, in the end, they were merely lies told to kids so kids could live as kids and not have to deal with the horrors of reality. Not too bad.. considering you are now 16 and should know truths by now.
The same goes for the things your church has been telling you. You should begin to question those things. Like, if Jesus DOES indeed, love the little children... then, why are those little children in Africa made to suffer? I know, the adults create the conditions.. but, if Jesus saves... why isn't He saving the innocents?
Basically... if your teachers lied to you as a kid... and so did your parents... why not your priests?
It's not a matter of 'going against your religion'... rather, discovering truths about it.
...
As for agnostics... i think we believe there is something out there that is not the human like god of religion... but, we know we don't know because we know that belief and knowledge are two completely different things. And both can exist in our lives.
Hail, Hail!!!
ever had a religious 16 year old look down their nose at you?
when I told him I believe in a "force", he asked "like Luke Skywalker?".
that was over with, but then my brother and I got into a discussion about god and all that. I found out during this discussion that he basically believes that homosexuality is a disease and it can be cured through a relationship with god. I was utterly shocked. And disgusted. And he did what most theists who hold these strong opinions I find do; he quoted the bible directly when stating his belief that man shall not lay with another man, but when I asked him about some of the other antiquated bullshit in the bible, all of a sudden "you can't take everything so literally".
he also said he doesn't understand people who call themselves christians but don't go to church/gather with other christians. He said one of the main purposes of being a christian is coming together to worship and help each other and all that, and that if you don't do that, you aren't a "true christian". I tried to explain to him that a lot of people are very private in their faith and aren't comfortable worshipping and sharing in public/with others, but he thinks that's garbage.
it was a respectful discussion, but I felt part of our relationship died last night. I told my wife I don't think I can ever be close with someone who is a bigot. to me this is no different than if he told me that he hated black people.
he's just such an intelligent guy. It's a running joke in our family that he's Cliff Claven, because he knows so much about nothing and everything. But he's a bigot. I lost so much respect for him last night.
Fargo 2003
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I found out last night he questions nothing. he's a sheep.
Fargo 2003
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Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Sheesh, that's tough. It sounds like it was a nice discussion; but did he listen to your perspective as you listened to his? And your nephew is young (and pretty sheltered). He'll probably get his chance to open his mind once in college or away from his parents. Don't give up hope on him, he has a better chance of opening his mind since he's young and learning.
yes, he did. there were even a couple times where he looked up and said "hmmm.....good question". But in the end, his belief is unwavering that the christian faith is currently unpopular/under attack from the left. he says he dosen't think that believing homosexuality is wrong is being hateful, but he says as soon as you say that to anyone you are labelled as such, which is true, because, let's face it, that's what it is.
heaven forbid my nephew ends up being homosexual. I really honestly felt that he had been brainwashed. And I politely made mention of this to my brother, but I used the word "indoctrination". I said that one problem I have with organized religion is that it's taught as fact from a very young age, basically from birth. so I went through a very confusing phase as a young adult, knowing something was amiss, but then trying to reconcile that with the possibility that I was raised by liars. my brother said that since his belief is that god is fact, and that god is about love, why would he not want to share that with his son? but to me, "sharing" is quite different from making them learn about it in school and forcing them to study a big book.
Fargo 2003
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I don't even want him to change his beliefs if that's who he is. All I want is for him to make his own decisions. Mind you, I was kind of like him still at that age. I was struggling with it at that point, but still on the theist side of things.
what sort of made me laugh throughout all of this, is I was beginning to feel bombarded and hypnotized, as my brother's wife got in the act at one point. it felt as though they were trying to convince me, preach to me, if you will, that if I truly wanted to find god, I would.
I said, "with all due respect, if truly wanted to find the boogeyman,I could probably do that too". I said I'm not looking for god, because I don't believe he exists. I don't need to believe he exists. and of course I got the "that makes me sad" pity trip when I said I almost wished I believed there was an afterlife, because death for atheists and agnostics is the end. I have no comfort in believing I'll ever see my loved ones again.
anyway, it went around and around in circles for about an hour or so, much like it does here, minus the personal attacks and facepalms.
he thanked me for being gracious enough to help his son with his project. But I was still really depressed on the way home.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
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St. Paul 2014
Last part up there made me smile.
I find it really wonderful this young adult believes in his parents, in his religious upbringing,
in God. This may save him and his parents much trouble, worry, and poor choices.
As far as his father not accepting homosexuality why should he?
Why should anyone give up their personal beliefs to suit others?
Withholding love and acceptance based on another's beliefs is no different
than a bigot who does the same for race or sexual preference.
I love him. I always will. I am withholding nothing. But our relationship cannnot be the same based on his beliefs anymore than I'd have a good relationship with a racist family member.
and it's orientation, not preference.
religious upbringing does not guarantee, not by a LONG shot, that he won't get into trouble or make poor choices.
it's not about giving up your beliefs to suit others. it's about being hypocritical in the face of the christian message. I highly doubt the jesus potrayed by christians would advocate for bigotry against homosexuals.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
What I find concerning is that he thinks homosexuality is a disease and can be cured through a relationship with God. Maybe it's just me, but teaching that to your kids can be very harmful. You think teaching religion can prevent trouble, worry, and poor choices? Well, this kind of harmful thinking and small-mindedness is not healthy. As HFD said, his brother picks and chooses what he wants to believe according to the Bible, likely to fit his agenda. He dislikes homosexuals and doesnt think they deserve to live their lives in a particular way.. expressing that to your kid could be perceived as bad parenting.