Will Lebron or Kobe be considered better than MJ?

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drewdawgq wrote:

Caveeze wrote:

I think they are both better than MJ in a way....

I consider strength of the opponent.. I think that there is overall WAY more talent in the league.. guys today are bigger, faster, stronger than in Jordan's day.. plus, with the over seas guys.. the league is just more talented now..

Jordan is a great player.. and maybe the greatest.. but, put him up against today's guys..

False.

There may be a little more talent in the league today, but today's players are no bigger, faster, or stronger than in the 80s and 90s. David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon are 10x better than any center in the league right now. Shawn Kemp was 6'10" with a 40" vertical. Jordan was 6'6", Pippen was 6'8". Kobe is 6'7" and Lebron is 6'8". Sure, Lebron is a physical specimen, a guy like that only comes around once every twenty years. Sports science has evolved over the last 20 years but there's plenty of video of Jordan hitting the weight room with personal trainers. The only thing different about today's athletes is the philosophy behind nutrition and exercise. Also, the combo of John Stockton and his short shorts with Karl Malone playing the pick and roll would be just as effective today. The Bulls, Rockets, Jazz, Sonics, and Spurs of the 90s would be just as dominant today.

As for Lebron, he quit in the playoffs. Let me say that again, he QUIT in the playoffs against the Pistons. He pouted like a little baby and gave up in the first half of a playoff game. An elimination playoff game. Jordan and Kobe would NEVER., EVER... wow. Lebron has consistently shied away from the ball in the final seconds of a game, trying to pass when he should take the shot. He has consistently missed free throws in the clutch. Are there times when you should pass and trust your teammates, yes. Just as John Paxson and Steve Kerr. When it comes down to it, Kobe and MJ have the killer instinct, the never quit attitude and I just don't see it in Lebron. I will say that the season he is having this year is absolutely incredible and very fun to watch though. But better than Jordan? Please.

Kobe on the other hand is the closest thing we have to MJ. I will agree that he has been too selfish and at times unable to take over like MJ always did. But have you actually watched him? He is unstoppable even today. The Lakers have no business being a .500 team. Antwan Jamison starts for them! I think he played with MJ at UNC. Dwight Howard is garbage. Its Kobe and Nash and they can hang with any team in the league.

I'll give you one recent example of the difference between MJ/Kobe and Lebron. It was at this year's all star game. It was very close at the end and both teams are trying hard to win, Kobe started guarding Lebron and he shut him down on two crucial plays, blocking his shot on the final one. You could easily say it was just the all star game and it didn't matter. But it did matter. It mattered to Kobe. He wasn't going to let Lebron beoat him, it didn't matter if it was one on one in front of 2 people or the all star game in front of millions. Kobe refused to lose and Lebron was okay with it. Lebron is physically as talented as Kobe and MJ but when it comes down to it, he doesn't have "it" between the ears.

Someday someone will be better than MJ but it won't be Lebron and it won't be Kobe, even though he's closest.

Interesting to see how the miami game ended tonight......

I think the quit and fear of final shiot arguement was valid a couple of years ago..not so much anymore

drewdawgq

Caveeze wrote:

drewdawgq wrote:

False.

There may be a little more talent in the league today,

sooo, true?

good point.. I still think Kobe is in the talk..

"More talent" as in the league is a little more equal due to the influx of overseas players. So what I mean is the bad teams aren't as bad as they were twenty years ago because they have more "A" and "B" players, fewer "C" players. More talent as in more players that can make a difference but not more talented than the guys 80s and 90s.

drewdawgq

Certainly not discounting anything Lebron has done this season. He's in beast mode.

musicismylife78

drewdawgq wrote:

Caveeze wrote:

I think they are both better than MJ in a way....

I consider strength of the opponent.. I think that there is overall WAY more talent in the league.. guys today are bigger, faster, stronger than in Jordan's day.. plus, with the over seas guys.. the league is just more talented now..

Jordan is a great player.. and maybe the greatest.. but, put him up against today's guys..

False.

There may be a little more talent in the league today, but today's players are no bigger, faster, or stronger than in the 80s and 90s. David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon are 10x better than any center in the league right now. Shawn Kemp was 6'10" with a 40" vertical. Jordan was 6'6", Pippen was 6'8". Kobe is 6'7" and Lebron is 6'8". Sure, Lebron is a physical specimen, a guy like that only comes around once every twenty years. Sports science has evolved over the last 20 years but there's plenty of video of Jordan hitting the weight room with personal trainers. The only thing different about today's athletes is the philosophy behind nutrition and exercise. Also, the combo of John Stockton and his short shorts with Karl Malone playing the pick and roll would be just as effective today. The Bulls, Rockets, Jazz, Sonics, and Spurs of the 90s would be just as dominant today.

As for Lebron, he quit in the playoffs. Let me say that again, he QUIT in the playoffs against the Pistons. He pouted like a little baby and gave up in the first half of a playoff game. An elimination playoff game. Jordan and Kobe would NEVER., EVER... wow. Lebron has consistently shied away from the ball in the final seconds of a game, trying to pass when he should take the shot. He has consistently missed free throws in the clutch. Are there times when you should pass and trust your teammates, yes. Just as John Paxson and Steve Kerr. When it comes down to it, Kobe and MJ have the killer instinct, the never quit attitude and I just don't see it in Lebron. I will say that the season he is having this year is absolutely incredible and very fun to watch though. But better than Jordan? Please.

Kobe on the other hand is the closest thing we have to MJ. I will agree that he has been too selfish and at times unable to take over like MJ always did. But have you actually watched him? He is unstoppable even today. The Lakers have no business being a .500 team. Antwan Jamison starts for them! I think he played with MJ at UNC. Dwight Howard is garbage. Its Kobe and Nash and they can hang with any team in the league.

I'll give you one recent example of the difference between MJ/Kobe and Lebron. It was at this year's all star game. It was very close at the end and both teams are trying hard to win, Kobe started guarding Lebron and he shut him down on two crucial plays, blocking his shot on the final one. You could easily say it was just the all star game and it didn't matter. But it did matter. It mattered to Kobe. He wasn't going to let Lebron beat him, it didn't matter if it was one on one in front of 2 people or the all star game in front of millions. Kobe refused to lose and Lebron was okay with it. Lebron is physically as talented as Kobe and MJ but when it comes down to it, he doesn't have "it" between the ears.

Someday someone will be better than MJ but it won't be Lebron and it won't be Kobe, even though he's closest.

Kobe's inability to work with other players and share the spotlight is probably the major thing holding him back. Had he and Shaq been able to put their egos aside as Shaq said, they could have continued on winning. Instead both threw fits. Same evidently with Kobe and Dwight this season. Kobe wants to be the big dog. Jordan was of course but he was able to let others contribute and shine. Kobe seems to believe he is the only go to guy, he trusts himself and thats about it. Jordan made others better.

As I said, in terms of comparisons-defensively theres no question who was a more feared and talented defender. And I think MJ was a better passer as well. Kobe can score. And he scores ALOT. But the team suffers and his teammates suffer as a result. Jordan grew to realize that scoring 50 in a game that the Bulls lost was meaningless. And would get the team involved. Kobe just tries to score.

Playing with Jordan would be hard as hell, just as his teammate. And there are stories of him ruthlessly dressing down a teammate who didnt perform at the Jordan level. But he also didnt throw hissy fits and let his ego ruin the team.

musicismylife78

Jordan obviously shares with Kobe the drive to do whatever it takes to win. But Jordan would involve teammates and allow them to shine. I dont think when one thinks of Kobe they think of incredible passer or playmaker. Incredible scorer without a doubt, but Jordans drive to win included allowing everyone to contribute.

musicismylife78

essentially the main point is, looking at jordans career and overall stats and profile I think you see a guy who contributed to every aspect of the game, from scoring, passing, defending. And just in terms of what he did for the sport. He is THE face of it. He is probably the last true HUGE athlete like that. Where you go into any country, Africa, Asia, Australia, they all know who Jordan is. They all know the tongue and the dunks. Kobe's career will be remembered for the scoring. And the championships. And the rape case.

pjhawks

only by people under the age of 30...or idiots

drewdawgq

Kobe is like Mike. Lebron is like Magic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... lEgFnNwPzY

amethgr8

NOPE.

DewieCox

Kobe's past his chance, but I think Lebron has the ability to be. The guy does things on the court that nobody's ever seen. He's a freak, but that could also work against him and people can play it off that he got by on pure athletic ability as opposed strictly basketball skill. I think the fact that he's lost in the Finals 2x and disappeared couple other times will work hard against him.

I think Durant will be in this conversation in a couple years, once he really learns how to use his size on the defensive end. That guys on the cusp of becoming the best player in the league.

I think the argument that the league is overall more talented now is about the most ridiculous statement in any sport debate I've ever heard. There are some great players at the top but the fact that players like Joakim Noah and Brendan Heywood are Allstars speaks volumes.

Thoughts_Arrive

MJ all the way.
More talent back then.

No Coder

Caveeze wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

The league during MJ's era was incredible. Bird, Magic, Shaq, Barkeley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Drexler, Malone, Stockton. Everyone of those is hall of fame.

ya.. like I said, superstars are superstars.. but, a guy today that gets taken in the 3rd round has the skill set of a guy taken in the first round back then.. fact.

No way is that fact!! There a gems in every draft late in the 2nd round. Jordan dealt with getting beaten up every game. The game was a lot more physical and with no hand checking now he would put up 40+ regularly.
Dwight Howard wouldn't be a top 5 centre in the early 90's. he has NO basketball brain and completely relies on his athleticism and lack of great centres to dominate.Jordan had to enter the key with Ewing' The Admiral,Mourning,Hakeem, Dikembe, and Shaq.
I feel sorry for Kobe this year, having to play with Dwight. Kobe is the closest thing to MJ due to his competitiveness, but Jordan definitely made his team mates better, more than Kobe.
LBJ needs more consistency with his outside shot- if he can do that, he will get very close, but unless he wins lots more titles and can't see him ever being the GOAT