Will Lebron or Kobe be considered better than MJ?
musicismylife78
Posts: 6,116
At this point i'd have to say no. Kobe probably has a few years left. And lebron has awhile to play. But the thing with MJ was he wasnt just unbelieveable on the offensive end. He was among the greatest defenders ever. And although he started his career out sort of a ball hog, once Phil came along board, he really started to trust in his teammates and they all worked together. With Kobe, I dont think thats ever happened. MJ knew he could throw it to Kukoc or Kerr or Paxon and they'd make the play. Kobe doesnt seem to believe that about his team.
MJ also really didnt have the sort of years in the wilderness that Kobe has in between championships. The lakers will be good one season, then the next 5 they will be mediocre. MJ only really had that on the Wizards.
MJ also really didnt have the sort of years in the wilderness that Kobe has in between championships. The lakers will be good one season, then the next 5 they will be mediocre. MJ only really had that on the Wizards.
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I consider strength of the opponent.. I think that there is overall WAY more talent in the league.. guys today are bigger, faster, stronger than in Jordan's day.. plus, with the over seas guys.. the league is just more talented now..
Jordan is a great player.. and maybe the greatest.. but, put him up against today's guys..
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
Superstars are superstars.. but I feel the talent of the "average" player has grown since Jordan's day..
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
LeBron.....could be. Guy can do it all on offense and defense. If he wins anouther handful of titles than yes, he will be in the discussion.
Why not Kobe? the black mamba.. guy is, was, will be a great player of the game.. got the rings too.. I think he is an amazing player and has been for some time.. and, in my opinion, been playing against an overall more talented league..
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
Kobe seems unable to share the spotlight with anyone else. Its what the Shaq/Kobe beef was about. And its been the issue all this season as well. MJ must have been an absolute nightmare to play on a team with because of what he demanded which was absolute perfection, but he also respected and trusted his teammates and the Bulls were never on the verge of collapse or players were never forced out because Jordan couldnt deal with that other player getting the spotlight.
The league during MJ's era was incredible. Bird, Magic, Shaq, Barkeley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Drexler, Malone, Stockton. Everyone of those is hall of fame.
ya.. like I said, superstars are superstars.. but, a guy today that gets taken in the 3rd round has the skill set of a guy taken in the first round back then.. fact.
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
I disagree. If anything, the NBA misses MJ. His talent is head and shoulders above anyone else. to an embarassing extent too. As I said in the MJ is 50 thread, it didnt matter if the Bulls were down 20 in the 4th, you knew they were going to win and MJ was either going to score 40 and or hit the winning shot. The lack of desperation is something I remember vividly. They knew they were going to win. And they did. Every single time. I cant think of a sports team like that.
But at the end of the day, if you could draft any player in his prime, who do you take?
Jordan has a big poofed up name.. my instinct said jordan.. but isnt that just a reaction? Kobe has a bit of a tarnished name (so does Jordan if I really think about it) .. but, I dont know.. I still feel Kobe has played against tougher competition day in and day out in his career.. hard to think of a stat that can gauge this..
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
I don't know about the tougher competition point. Also, when MJ was in his prime, the NBA was a much more physical league. If MJ played with these current rules with no hand-checking, etc.. in his prime, he would have averaged 40 a game.
Ok.. I can see that.. being a Detroit boy, I was 11 when the Bad Boys won the ship the first time.. Agreed, was a much more physical era.. I still believe these cats today are better, and given the same set of rules, would play even better..
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
False.
There may be a little more talent in the league today, but today's players are no bigger, faster, or stronger than in the 80s and 90s. David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon are 10x better than any center in the league right now. Shawn Kemp was 6'10" with a 40" vertical. Jordan was 6'6", Pippen was 6'8". Kobe is 6'7" and Lebron is 6'8". Sure, Lebron is a physical specimen, a guy like that only comes around once every twenty years. Sports science has evolved over the last 20 years but there's plenty of video of Jordan hitting the weight room with personal trainers. The only thing different about today's athletes is the philosophy behind nutrition and exercise. Also, the combo of John Stockton and his short shorts with Karl Malone playing the pick and roll would be just as effective today. The Bulls, Rockets, Jazz, Sonics, and Spurs of the 90s would be just as dominant today.
As for Lebron, he quit in the playoffs. Let me say that again, he QUIT in the playoffs against the Pistons. He pouted like a little baby and gave up in the first half of a playoff game. An elimination playoff game. Jordan and Kobe would NEVER., EVER... wow. Lebron has consistently shied away from the ball in the final seconds of a game, trying to pass when he should take the shot. He has consistently missed free throws in the clutch. Are there times when you should pass and trust your teammates, yes. Just as John Paxson and Steve Kerr. When it comes down to it, Kobe and MJ have the killer instinct, the never quit attitude and I just don't see it in Lebron. I will say that the season he is having this year is absolutely incredible and very fun to watch though. But better than Jordan? Please.
Kobe on the other hand is the closest thing we have to MJ. I will agree that he has been too selfish and at times unable to take over like MJ always did. But have you actually watched him? He is unstoppable even today. The Lakers have no business being a .500 team. Antwan Jamison starts for them! I think he played with MJ at UNC. Dwight Howard is garbage. Its Kobe and Nash and they can hang with any team in the league.
I'll give you one recent example of the difference between MJ/Kobe and Lebron. It was at this year's all star game. It was very close at the end and both teams are trying hard to win, Kobe started guarding Lebron and he shut him down on two crucial plays, blocking his shot on the final one. You could easily say it was just the all star game and it didn't matter. But it did matter. It mattered to Kobe. He wasn't going to let Lebron beat him, it didn't matter if it was one on one in front of 2 people or the all star game in front of millions. Kobe refused to lose and Lebron was okay with it. Lebron is physically as talented as Kobe and MJ but when it comes down to it, he doesn't have "it" between the ears.
Someday someone will be better than MJ but it won't be Lebron and it won't be Kobe, even though he's closest.
LOL.
rule changes, expansion, and kids coming out of college way too early have diluted the talent pool in today's nba (same can be said for all sports mostly).
so...no.
sooo, true?
good point.. I still think Kobe is in the talk..
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
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Ditto
I think the quit and fear of final shiot arguement was valid a couple of years ago..not so much anymore
"More talent" as in the league is a little more equal due to the influx of overseas players. So what I mean is the bad teams aren't as bad as they were twenty years ago because they have more "A" and "B" players, fewer "C" players. More talent as in more players that can make a difference but not more talented than the guys 80s and 90s.
Kobe's inability to work with other players and share the spotlight is probably the major thing holding him back. Had he and Shaq been able to put their egos aside as Shaq said, they could have continued on winning. Instead both threw fits. Same evidently with Kobe and Dwight this season. Kobe wants to be the big dog. Jordan was of course but he was able to let others contribute and shine. Kobe seems to believe he is the only go to guy, he trusts himself and thats about it. Jordan made others better.
As I said, in terms of comparisons-defensively theres no question who was a more feared and talented defender. And I think MJ was a better passer as well. Kobe can score. And he scores ALOT. But the team suffers and his teammates suffer as a result. Jordan grew to realize that scoring 50 in a game that the Bulls lost was meaningless. And would get the team involved. Kobe just tries to score.
Playing with Jordan would be hard as hell, just as his teammate. And there are stories of him ruthlessly dressing down a teammate who didnt perform at the Jordan level. But he also didnt throw hissy fits and let his ego ruin the team.
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I think Durant will be in this conversation in a couple years, once he really learns how to use his size on the defensive end. That guys on the cusp of becoming the best player in the league.
I think the argument that the league is overall more talented now is about the most ridiculous statement in any sport debate I've ever heard. There are some great players at the top but the fact that players like Joakim Noah and Brendan Heywood are Allstars speaks volumes.