What Is Discrimination?

polaris_x

just read a story about how a baker refused to bake a wedding cake when he found out that the couple were same-sex ...

most of the comments on yahoo seem to share the viewpoint that as a private business - they can refuse to enter into a contract with whomever they please ...

thing is - isn't it illegal to discriminate? i mean - what if he said he refused to bake a cake cause the couple were black!? ... i am guessing that would be problematic ...

having said that - i would hate to own a business and have stephen harper come in ... i'd refuse him business ...

brianlux

Discrimination in business is bad business. If someone comes into my bookstore with green pants and a purple shirt and I hate that combination and refuse to sell to them, I'm the idiot for not stuffing my bias.

That said, there's a flip side to the word "discriminating". The motto I came up with for my business is "Quality used books for the discriminating reader".

JonnyPistachio

polaris_x wrote:

just read a story about how a baker refused to bake a wedding cake when he found out that the couple were same-sex ...

most of the comments on yahoo seem to share the viewpoint that as a private business - they can refuse to enter into a contract with whomever they please ...

thing is - isn't it illegal to discriminate? i mean - what if he said he refused to bake a cake cause the couple were black!? ... i am guessing that would be problematic ...

having said that - i would hate to own a business and have stephen harper come in ... i'd refuse him business ...

just amazing.. So, by denying the couple the cake, you gotta wonder, is the baker trying to thwart their plan to have a wedding, or he just doenst want them to have cake? Its like a kid packing their toys, storming off and taking them home.. immature.
No matter how you feel, that is absolutely terrible business. I suppose the business should be able to refuse customers if they want, but they will have to deal with the consequences. Where was this?

even flow - question mark

Maybe it was due to religious reasons. No, wait, religion preaches love, not discrimination.

polaris_x

JonnyPistachio wrote:

just amazing.. So, by denying the couple the cake, you gotta wonder, is the baker trying to thwart their plan to have a wedding, or he just doenst want them to have cake? Its like a kid packing their toys, storming off and taking them home.. immature.
No matter how you feel, that is absolutely terrible business. I suppose the business should be able to refuse customers if they want, but they will have to deal with the consequences. Where was this?

portland of all places! ...

http://www.edgeonthenet.com/news/nation ... ian_couple

first link that came up - read it originally on yahoo

JonnyPistachio

polaris_x wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

just amazing.. So, by denying the couple the cake, you gotta wonder, is the baker trying to thwart their plan to have a wedding, or he just doenst want them to have cake? Its like a kid packing their toys, storming off and taking them home.. immature.
No matter how you feel, that is absolutely terrible business. I suppose the business should be able to refuse customers if they want, but they will have to deal with the consequences. Where was this?

portland of all places! ...

http://www.edgeonthenet.com/news/nation ... ian_couple

first link that came up - read it originally on yahoo

:fp: Amazing.

So, since his religious beliefs are against gay marriage, he's willing to jeopardize his business.. Even though the cake part is just people eating a pile of sugar and has nothing to do with the ceremony. What a strange was to do business.

Jeanwah

polaris_x wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

just amazing.. So, by denying the couple the cake, you gotta wonder, is the baker trying to thwart their plan to have a wedding, or he just doenst want them to have cake? Its like a kid packing their toys, storming off and taking them home.. immature.
No matter how you feel, that is absolutely terrible business. I suppose the business should be able to refuse customers if they want, but they will have to deal with the consequences. Where was this?

portland of all places! ...

http://www.edgeonthenet.com/news/nation ... ian_couple

first link that came up - read it originally on yahoo

He'll be out of business in no time, seeing as it's gay-friendly Portland...

hedonist

I don't agree with the baker's stance, but fully support his right to turn away customers (just as you would by your last comment, polaris ).

It'll play out and he'll reap what he's sown.

In the end, it's his business, no? Up to him to have it flourish or atrophy.

redrock

polaris_x wrote:

just read a story about how a baker refused to bake a wedding cake when he found out that the couple were same-sex ...

most of the comments on yahoo seem to share the viewpoint that as a private business - they can refuse to enter into a contract with whomever they please ...

thing is - isn't it illegal to discriminate? i mean - what if he said he refused to bake a cake cause the couple were black!? ... i am guessing that would be problematic ...

There have been a few instances of B&B's fined for not giving gay couples a room (or restricting the type of room they could have - depending on the case). They were found to have acted unlawfully and were guilty of discrimination based on sexual orientation. The cases I read about were not in the USA but Canada and the UK.

They may have been a private business but they were offering a service/goods to the genera public and thus are not allowed to discriminate.

polaris_x

JonnyPistachio wrote:

:fp: Amazing.

So, since his religious beliefs are against gay marriage, he's willing to jeopardize his business.. Even though the cake part is just people eating a pile of sugar and has nothing to do with the ceremony. What a strange was to do business.

there are many things that breed extremism and religion is definitely one ... apparently there are other bakeries that did the same thing ... and the 1 guy said he'd rather shut down than go against his religious beliefs ...

upon reflection - i feel that it is sad that these people would take their religious beliefs to the point of impacting others ... with the premise that baking a cake for a same sex couple does not equate to them validating it and the notion that their religious beliefs probably dictate other things that they choose not to uphold ... but having said all that - i somewhat admire their conviction and their willingness to sacrifice their almighty dollar to uphold them ...

it's the world we live in i suppose ...

Who Princess

polaris_x wrote:

thing is - isn't it illegal to discriminate? i mean - what if he said he refused to bake a cake cause the couple were black!? ... i am guessing that would be problematic ...

While this guy's stance was bad for business, whether or not it's illegal may depend on the city or state. My city includes gays in its anti-discrimination ordinance. In other places, it may be perfectly legal, just not terribly smart.

polaris_x

hedonist wrote:

I don't agree with the baker's stance, but fully support his right to turn away customers (just as you would by your last comment, polaris )

thing is ... state laws may not allow him to do so ...

JonnyPistachio

polaris_x wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

:fp: Amazing.

So, since his religious beliefs are against gay marriage, he's willing to jeopardize his business.. Even though the cake part is just people eating a pile of sugar and has nothing to do with the ceremony. What a strange was to do business.

there are many things that breed extremism and religion is definitely one ... apparently there are other bakeries that did the same thing ... and the 1 guy said he'd rather shut down than go against his religious beliefs ...

upon reflection - i feel that it is sad that these people would take their religious beliefs to the point of impacting others ... with the premise that baking a cake for a same sex couple does not equate to them validating it and the notion that their religious beliefs probably dictate other things that they choose not to uphold ... but having said all that - i somewhat admire their conviction and their willingness to sacrifice their almighty dollar to uphold them ...

it's the world we live in i suppose ...

Yeah, I agree.

I just wish the entire state would get together and say, we simply dont like your attitude, so you may not buy gas, groceries, or clothes here. Starve or move motherfucker.

Jeanwah

Granted it is his business and he serves who he pleases, but what if, say, he was a doctor, P.A. or nurse? Anyone in the health industry?

Should they have a say in who they serve?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

It's most certainly discrimination, but I tend to agree with other posters that as a businessman... he can choose to do business with anyone he wants. With that said...the baker is cutting his own throat. I would think that anyone with any moral decency would hear of this and then take their business elsewhere. To continue to purchase baked goods at this guy's shop would, in essence, be lending support to his misguided beliefs.

Laws are nice, but society can exert much more influence than any law might by holding these types accountable. People have more influence than they think: they need to make conscientious decisions when choosing who to support. Just as people boycotted businesses that supported apartheid, buy locally grown produce, or abstain from purchasing items made in sweat shops... people should not frequent places that practice intolerance.

When I make any decision on moral grounds, I explain to my children why I chose to act in that manner and entertain a discussion surrounding the topic on hand. I want my kids to understand how to react appropriately to events or things in society so that they have a chance of developing a mindset that will allow them to act in a responsible manner once they are out from my umbrella and become contributing members of society.

It will be interesting to gauge the fallout from such a poor decision.

even flow - question mark

polaris_x wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

:fp: Amazing.

So, since his religious beliefs are against gay marriage, he's willing to jeopardize his business.. Even though the cake part is just people eating a pile of sugar and has nothing to do with the ceremony. What a strange was to do business.

there are many things that breed extremism and religion is definitely one ... apparently there are other bakeries that did the same thing ... and the 1 guy said he'd rather shut down than go against his religious beliefs ...

upon reflection - i feel that it is sad that these people would take their religious beliefs to the point of impacting others ... with the premise that baking a cake for a same sex couple does not equate to them validating it and the notion that their religious beliefs probably dictate other things that they choose not to uphold ... but having said all that - i somewhat admire their conviction and their willingness to sacrifice their almighty dollar to uphold them ...

it's the world we live in i suppose ...

This is no different from the Muslim barber who didn't want to cut the dykes hair here in the city.

If it is their business, one would think they can deny who they want.

Idris

polaris_x wrote:

having said that - i would hate to own a business and have stephen harper come in ... i'd refuse him business ...

I would not refuse business to Harper, sure I don't like him, but I like the dollars in his pocket. ( :P )
But of course while I'm serving Harper I'd for sure let him know what I think about him and his politics.

But I'd do it after he pays,
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Reminds me of those 'what would you do' episodes where business owners refuse to serve customers because of some bias or whatever the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIDqgyK8fw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plaqunpTzvM

hedonist

Jeanwah wrote:

Granted it is his business and he serves who he pleases, but what if, say, he was a doctor, P.A. or nurse? Anyone in the health industry?

Should they have a say in who they serve?

But doctors (not sure about nurses, though I believe it's all in healthcare) take the Hippocratic Oath.

As for this particular business (and agreed with Thirty Bills), is it no different from other establishments (ie, no shoes, no shirt, no service). Granted different standards, but standards nonetheless elected by the proprietor?

Jeanwah

hedonist wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Granted it is his business and he serves who he pleases, but what if, say, he was a doctor, P.A. or nurse? Anyone in the health industry?

Should they have a say in who they serve?

But doctors (not sure about nurses, though I believe it's all in healthcare) take the Hippocratic Oath.

As for this particular business (and agreed with Thirty Bills), is it no different from other establishments (ie, no shoes, no shirt, no service). Granted different standards, but standards nonetheless elected by the proprietor?

So it is, for healthcare, to serve everyone regardless. I was just wondering about the ethics of that. I agree it should be up to the proprietor of a business who he/she serves, as they'll just eat the business they lose when they discriminate who they serve. They also will probably get a bad reputation, leading to more lost business... It's just a no-brainer to not discriminate if you want success in business...

polaris_x

thing is ... state laws prevent this guy from doing such a thing ...

Idris

polaris_x wrote:

thing is ... state laws prevent this guy from doing such a thing ...

It's a silly law, people should be allowed to turn away who they like, for whatever reasons.

I mean,It's not the right thing to do, but we can't truly solve 'hate' with laws.
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