Karma vs. "God's will"

Cosmo

Jeanwah wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

I'm in the camp that subscribes to neither.

Do you believe in energy?

...
Energy... such as particle and wave energy? The forces in place that moves the Universe? The life force that all living things possess? Yup.
And not subscribing to 'God's Will' does not negate that possibility of the God of all Nature. I just believe that God is not a thinking/reasoning entity... more of the energy that creates. God(Nature) does not care about the day to day affairs this planet of highly evolved apes... that is what we are supposed to be doing. We are the results of a random set of circumstances that created an environment capable of supporting life... at this time, in this space.
I believe that we should do good things... not to please some God... or so karma will reward us. We should do good things... well... just because. I believe we are capable of doing this... but, we choose to look out for ourselves... basically, because we are animals... like apes. I hope that someday we seperate ourselves from the other animals and see that the world is much bigger than ourselves. But, I have a feeling we won't... because we are animals... like apes.

Who Princess

know1 wrote:

Who Princess wrote:

I think Harold Kushner explained it better than I could in When Bad Things Happen to Good People. If you've never read it, it's about reconciling bad things with a faith in a loving and compassionate God. I don't want to sum up a whole book in a sentence or two but it comes down to accepting that even God has limits and can't prevent every bad thing. People make choices to do bad things to others, the natural world responds to weather, gravity, and the other rules that guide it, some people are just downright evil to anyone who happens to be in their reach.

I'm a hopeful person but I'm also realistic. If I try to do good, it's because it's a way of life that makes the most sense to me. I don't expect good to come to me as a result and there have been many times when it hasn't.

I don't think God has limits as you say.

I think it's about perspective. Our human lives are just a blink of an eye compared to our eternity. The things that happen while we're alive on earth matter greatly to us now, but I don't think they matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Plus, something good almost always comes from "bad" things happening. It may seem like the bad thing is worse to us than the good result, but looking at it from an eternal perspective might change that opinion.

I was summarizing a point made by Kushner. He really explains it in a far better way.

I agree that good things usually come from bad. So does Kushner. He relates that dealing with the illness that killed his young son made him a better rabbi, a better husband, a better friend, and many other things. He also says that he would give up all the things he gained to have his son back.

As I said, I try to be realistic. The bad things that have happened in my life have possibly made me a better person but I don't think they were deliberately done to me by God or karma so that I could grow as a person. The world is a complicated place and I'm still learning.

fear4freedom

I believe in both plus energy! Everything is a "state of mind" and we make it what it is. Although there is a "Creator God"

You all know where I stand as a Christian man. So first off I will say that it even says in the bible that we have our free-will. Therefore God is not involved in our day to day lives and small decisions. He also is not arbitrary. You will not recieve blessings if you give more money to a church and you will not recieve less, if you dont go to church. You cannot buy your blessings!

I think that once you are saved and you recieve the Holy Spirit, then you have the capacity to be blessed as you walk this life's steps. Many of your steps are "ordered" and some of them are your own "carnal mind" moving forward. I think of it like this, once you are saved you are inside a triangle with God the creator at the top, Jesus to the bottom right, and the Holy Spirit to the bottom left. Being inside that triangle, called the Trinity, you have a relationship with all 3. The relationship with the Holy Spirit provides the fruit that we all seek. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness, Meekness, Self-Control, etc. You begin to have a relationship with Jesus and God the Father. You will build your inner peace and find your purpose. So having a relationship with any or all 3 is a "state of mind".

Gods will happens when it moves you and others toward that relationship with Trinity. There is a reason for everything and sometimes its divine! When its divine, its God's will. The power of God works in us and our hearts change when we pursue the righteousness of God. Our hearts are "hard-wired" for righteousness and its all a state of mind. You can believe in a coffee cup up on the shelf and if you worship it the right way, and believe in it immensely, you will be a better person just for that belief. Any time you put something above you, you submit yourself to that thing, or entitiy. This is why the atheist Founding Fathers also wanted for us to get our rights from God and not from Govt.! They understood this philosophy and "state of mind"

Karma can be Gods will and vice versa. It depends how one chooses to percieve it. If a man robs a bank and gets arrested, then thats his Karma. If he gets away and moves to an island far away, his Karma is yet to be delivered. Once something "out of normal" happens to him, then he realizes this could be his Karma payment. Its his state of mind that tells him he is recieving his Karma that is due. Nobody else understands or sees his payment come to him, right? So its only in his mind that he recieves Karma for his wrongdoing. Rarely does another person know or see the Karma payment being made. Good or bad! In this case, the guy runs to an island and gets away with robbing a bank. We all think he gets away....but his "state of mind" for the rest of his life.....could be his KARMA! Conviction? Repentance? Guilt? Paranoia? Anxiety? could all be on the menu for this guys entire life.

STAYSEA

I'm a HEATHEN

I know Karma.
Every time Shit goes sour, and I can't think of how I've wrong the universe.
I'm told, Karma is coming back good for you!

Every time Shit goes sour, and I think of the bad thing I did to wrong the universe.
I'm told, Karma is giving you a payback.

After so many decades of this...
I realize KARMA is a BEEEchh.

It works with G*d
A messenger... I'm still not religious.

"Crap rolls downhill, don't be in the path, " -UK-

STAYSEA

fear4freedom wrote:

I believe in both plus energy! Everything is a "state of mind" and we make it what it is. Although there is a "Creator God"

You all know where I stand as a Christian man. So first off I will say that it even says in the bible that we have our free-will. Therefore God is not involved in our day to day lives and small decisions. He also is not arbitrary. You will not recieve blessings if you give more money to a church and you will not recieve less, if you dont go to church. You cannot buy your blessings!

I think that once you are saved and you recieve the Holy Spirit, then you have the capacity to be blessed as you walk this life's steps. Many of your steps are "ordered" and some of them are your own "carnal mind" moving forward. I think of it like this, once you are saved you are inside a triangle with God the creator at the top, Jesus to the bottom right, and the Holy Spirit to the bottom left. Being inside that triangle, called the Trinity, you have a relationship with all 3. The relationship with the Holy Spirit provides the fruit that we all seek. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness, Meekness, Self-Control, etc. You begin to have a relationship with Jesus and God the Father. You will build your inner peace and find your purpose. So having a relationship with any or all 3 is a "state of mind".

Gods will happens when it moves you and others toward that relationship with Trinity. There is a reason for everything and sometimes its divine! When its divine, its God's will. The power of God works in us and our hearts change when we pursue the righteousness of God. Our hearts are "hard-wired" for righteousness and its all a state of mind. You can believe in a coffee cup up on the shelf and if you worship it the right way, and believe in it immensely, you will be a better person just for that belief. Any time you put something above you, you submit yourself to that thing, or entitiy. This is why the atheist Founding Fathers also wanted for us to get our rights from God and not from Govt.! They understood this philosophy and "state of mind"

Karma can be Gods will and vice versa. It depends how one chooses to percieve it. If a man robs a bank and gets arrested, then thats his Karma. If he gets away and moves to an island far away, his Karma is yet to be delivered. Once something "out of normal" happens to him, then he realizes this could be his Karma payment. Its his state of mind that tells him he is recieving his Karma that is due. Nobody else understands or sees his payment come to him, right? So its only in his mind that he recieves Karma for his wrongdoing. Rarely does another person know or see the Karma payment being made. Good or bad! In this case, the guy runs to an island and gets away with robbing a bank. We all think he gets away....but his "state of mind" for the rest of his life.....could be his KARMA! Conviction? Repentance? Guilt? Paranoia? Anxiety? could all be on the menu for this guys entire life.

I was lost after Christian Man... why is that necessary? I bought a car from a Christian. The transmission blew out three days later. Was It G*d's will? I also bought a car from a Jew. The Russian mechanic told me 3 days later the transmission was not good. Was it G*d's will? I thought for a while... maybe I need to drive a stick and not do business with people that put their religion on a business card. So, I went to the Ford dealership. . The Car is great. (not a ford) I've learned nothing.

STAYSEA

brianlux wrote:

I believe in Karma because so much of my life seems to fit well with the idea of both good and bad Karma- the way things turn out when I've tried to be thoughtful or kind or helpful etc as opposed to when I've been a jerk or negative or selfish.

God's will doesn't make sense to me because I don't see how there would be a point to existence if the universe were run by a puppet master.

The other reason Karma makes sense to me is the notion that out thoughts are electrical impulses. You know- that whole acetylcholine/ synaptic vesicle thing our brains do. When our thoughts occur, electrical impulses run through our brain and emanate from our bodies out into the universe. (This is not hocus pocus- It's scientifically proven but I'm too lazy this morning to provide the references.) Anyway, since our thoughts emanate out from us, it makes sense to me that they would cause a reaction in kind. I think that's why you get a good or a bad vibe in a room of people depending on what the atmosphere is like at the time. That same thing combined with the positive electrical impulses sent out by the band and the constant feedback of that and the audiences good thoughts is probably what makes Pearl Jam concerts so awesome. Good vibes, good Karma!

Brian is so Right! This thread is done.

brianlux

STAYSEA wrote:

brianlux wrote:

I believe in Karma because so much of my life seems to fit well with the idea of both good and bad Karma- the way things turn out when I've tried to be thoughtful or kind or helpful etc as opposed to when I've been a jerk or negative or selfish.

God's will doesn't make sense to me because I don't see how there would be a point to existence if the universe were run by a puppet master.

The other reason Karma makes sense to me is the notion that out thoughts are electrical impulses. You know- that whole acetylcholine/ synaptic vesicle thing our brains do. When our thoughts occur, electrical impulses run through our brain and emanate from our bodies out into the universe. (This is not hocus pocus- It's scientifically proven but I'm too lazy this morning to provide the references.) Anyway, since our thoughts emanate out from us, it makes sense to me that they would cause a reaction in kind. I think that's why you get a good or a bad vibe in a room of people depending on what the atmosphere is like at the time. That same thing combined with the positive electrical impulses sent out by the band and the constant feedback of that and the audiences good thoughts is probably what makes Pearl Jam concerts so awesome. Good vibes, good Karma!

Brian is so Right! This thread is done.

Thanks for good vibes, STAYSEA. :wave:

But I doubt we've heard the last of this thread.

STAYSEA

All is Calm ...B!!!

Nothing is known.
You finished!

I live life like
"LAST KISS"

(my cat is pissing.. I'm happy.. It's been bloody for days, and he just peed very well with no pain! no Blood, is that Karma?)

He is named Confucious ... a prophet to us all?

I will gladly scoop his pee out of a box! I'm so proud. This sounds strange, but you know me.

even flow - question mark

"I hope god smotes him", is so passe. I rather just wish karma on somebody. But in the end isn't it the same as, "what goes around, comes around"? "Don't make that face because it'll stay that way"? Just old adages, that really don't add up to a total sum.

mysticweed

karma will out in the end
the love you take is equal to the love you make
due simply to human nature
"god's will" is used to cover anything and everything good or bad and (to me) is a senseless reasoning

hedonist

Huh.

Some of the comments made are reminiscent to me of "God's Dice". (a good thing, btw - love that song and its energy, and it's been too damn long since I've listened to it)

Should how we live our lives - the kindness we extend toward others, simple daily courtesies, charity, treating ourselves well too, and just doing what's fucking RIGHT - be dictated by anything beyond ourselves and our conscience? If that's what god is - the guidance to do right on as many paths as we're able - why can that not be learned and achieved on our own, through our parents, through our friends, through what's around us?

I think sometimes...shit just happens. Happens to the honorable and to the assholes. Good and decent people have been felled by the unimaginable. People who are pieces of shit have lived long and (seemingly) happy lives. We've all seen it, experienced it, in both scenarios.

Bah! I really have no clue, but I do like this soul/brain exercise.

brianlux

hedonist wrote:

Huh.

Some of the comments made are reminiscent to me of "God's Dice". (a good thing, btw - love that song and its energy, and it's been too damn long since I've listened to it)

Should how we live our lives - the kindness we extend toward others, simple daily courtesies, charity, treating ourselves well too, and just doing what's fucking RIGHT - be dictated by anything beyond ourselves and our conscience? If that's what god is - the guidance to do right on as many paths as we're able - why can that not be learned and achieved on our own, through our parents, through our friends, through what's around us?

I think sometimes...shit just happens. Happens to the honorable and to the assholes. Good and decent people have been felled by the unimaginable. People who are pieces of shit have lived long and (seemingly) happy lives. We've all seen it, experienced it, in both scenarios.

Bah! I really have no clue, but I do like this soul/brain exercise.

And I like the soul/brain exercise I got reading your post, Hedonist. Well said!

Jeanwah

hedonist wrote:

Huh.

Some of the comments made are reminiscent to me of "God's Dice". (a good thing, btw - love that song and its energy, and it's been too damn long since I've listened to it)

Should how we live our lives - the kindness we extend toward others, simple daily courtesies, charity, treating ourselves well too, and just doing what's fucking RIGHT - be dictated by anything beyond ourselves and our conscience? If that's what god is - the guidance to do right on as many paths as we're able - why can that not be learned and achieved on our own, through our parents, through our friends, through what's around us?

I think sometimes...shit just happens. Happens to the honorable and to the assholes. Good and decent people have been felled by the unimaginable. People who are pieces of shit have lived long and (seemingly) happy lives. We've all seen it, experienced it, in both scenarios.

Bah! I really have no clue, but I do like this soul/brain exercise.

I like this post. I like that you get around the whole God thing with looking at ourselves and learning from each other and our surroundings rather than assuming faith in a God is what karma is about. Because to me, faith lies in humanity when I really think about it rather than, (or should I say in addition to) a higher power.

And I kinda think karma is based on energy, since everything is made up of energy. Like Brian said, a PJ show is filled with a good energy that makes the event magical. It just happens to be one of the few spots where you can find hundreds of people projecting positive energy (and a Grateful Dead show as well). I can't say that about every show I go to.

The whole "shit just happens" resonates, and I should probably just let it be at that. I'm not sure if I like it, but it's got that air of truth to it I can't shake.

STAYSEA

brianlux wrote:

STAYSEA wrote:

brianlux wrote:

I believe in Karma because so much of my life seems to fit well with the idea of both good and bad Karma- the way things turn out when I've tried to be thoughtful or kind or helpful etc as opposed to when I've been a jerk or negative or selfish.

God's will doesn't make sense to me because I don't see how there would be a point to existence if the universe were run by a puppet master.

The other reason Karma makes sense to me is the notion that out thoughts are electrical impulses. You know- that whole acetylcholine/ synaptic vesicle thing our brains do. When our thoughts occur, electrical impulses run through our brain and emanate from our bodies out into the universe. (This is not hocus pocus- It's scientifically proven but I'm too lazy this morning to provide the references.) Anyway, since our thoughts emanate out from us, it makes sense to me that they would cause a reaction in kind. I think that's why you get a good or a bad vibe in a room of people depending on what the atmosphere is like at the time. That same thing combined with the positive electrical impulses sent out by the band and the constant feedback of that and the audiences good thoughts is probably what makes Pearl Jam concerts so awesome. Good vibes, good Karma!

Brian is so Right! This thread is done.

Thanks for good vibes, STAYSEA. :wave:

But I doubt we've heard the last of this thread.

And You are correct