Karma vs. "God's will"
Jeanwah
Posts: 6,363
I was watching Enlightened on HBO last night and the main character asks a co-worker if she believed in karma or "what comes around goes around". The co-worker responds that she doesn't, that she believes that everything is God-willed, and everything that happens to us is God's doing.
Seeing that most on the forum is pretty non-religious, I'm already guessing that many believe in karma (as do I). But I know some people personally who are religious and think much like the co-worker on the show; they also go to church & believe they are good people for doing that, yet they have toxic attitudes in general, and believe that being a good church-goer makes up for their negative actions. One thing I have noticed about some of these people - nothing bad happens to them. Granted, defining what's bad can be subjective, but on the whole as an outside viewer, they really have had a pretty good life; nothing big to complain about.
So, it makes me wonder about the whole faith - worship and if it has something on karma and in the energy we put out is what we receive back. Because for the corrupt church goers I know who don't believe in karma? Well, karma doesn't seem to happen to them. Thoughts?
Seeing that most on the forum is pretty non-religious, I'm already guessing that many believe in karma (as do I). But I know some people personally who are religious and think much like the co-worker on the show; they also go to church & believe they are good people for doing that, yet they have toxic attitudes in general, and believe that being a good church-goer makes up for their negative actions. One thing I have noticed about some of these people - nothing bad happens to them. Granted, defining what's bad can be subjective, but on the whole as an outside viewer, they really have had a pretty good life; nothing big to complain about.
So, it makes me wonder about the whole faith - worship and if it has something on karma and in the energy we put out is what we receive back. Because for the corrupt church goers I know who don't believe in karma? Well, karma doesn't seem to happen to them. Thoughts?
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It's possible that the churchgoers you see haven't had anything "bad" happen to them but it may also depend on your definition of "bad." I think many people are able to live their lives without a true catastrophe (horrible crime, natural disaster, devastating health condition) whether they are believers or not.
You said it yourself "...I don't believe in karma because I know many bad people don't ever "get what's coming to them". And I mentioned that the def. of "bad" is subjective... How about people who do good and have many bad things happen? how do you explain that? Just curious.
I can't profess to know what hard times are visited upon us, how we deal with them. But I believe none of us - the faithful, the not, the in-betweens, are immune to darkness of all shades. Health, financial, grief, etc...eventually they come knocking.
I'm inclined to go with Who P's view of it not being an either/or thing. I like to think (but don't know) that karma gets those in the end, for better or worse - in the sense that we do eventually have to own up to our actions, our choices. They catch up with us. WE catch up with us.
Whether that happens in this life or something after, I don't know.
Whether that just IS life, I don't know.
Sidenote - Is karma god? I mean, if karma rewards or punishes us, is that just giving a different name to that granter?
God's will doesn't make sense to me because I don't see how there would be a point to existence if the universe were run by a puppet master.
The other reason Karma makes sense to me is the notion that out thoughts are electrical impulses. You know- that whole acetylcholine/ synaptic vesicle thing our brains do. When our thoughts occur, electrical impulses run through our brain and emanate from our bodies out into the universe. (This is not hocus pocus- It's scientifically proven but I'm too lazy this morning to provide the references.) Anyway, since our thoughts emanate out from us, it makes sense to me that they would cause a reaction in kind. I think that's why you get a good or a bad vibe in a room of people depending on what the atmosphere is like at the time. That same thing combined with the positive electrical impulses sent out by the band and the constant feedback of that and the audiences good thoughts is probably what makes Pearl Jam concerts so awesome. Good vibes, good Karma!
I'm a hopeful person but I'm also realistic. If I try to do good, it's because it's a way of life that makes the most sense to me. I don't expect good to come to me as a result and there have been many times when it hasn't.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
you'll notice this in a literal/physical sense, where negative people and gossipers tend to attract each other.
and just because you don't see any outward signs of something bad happening to someone, that doesn't at ALL mean it hasn't. I know lots of people who SEEM to have perfect lives, but are miserable on the inside and privately.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
My understanding of some religions that believe in karma is that it is indeed god dispensing the good or the bad while other branches believe it is a cause and effect relationship that brings the good and bad. I believe in cause and effect so if that is the definition of karma then that is what I believe.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Book looks interesting, I can understand that viewpoint, but I also wonder how an atheist might explain why bad things might happen to good people. I've also heard the POV that we create our realities and everything that happens, good and bad, are our own personal doing. (Not sure I agree with that)
I agree that the way we should live should not be about what may come to us. A selfish way of living like that and only doing good because the karma will come back around defeats all reasons of doing good, in my opinion. Just living a way that makes sense and also detaching ourselves from outcomes seems ideal, while looking out for others.
So, sorry I can't be much help here Jeanwah but I can't go with an either or choice. I do however, believe in an IT. How we choose to define IT, and what labels conjure up the best fit, I see as a personal choice.
In the Cristian traditional sense; (God is an old man with white beard hanging out above the clouds in a white robe) is an image I try to refrain from but it's hard -- childhood indoctrination being such as it is. However, at any time in which I feel a strong connection to IT, (inner peace, tingling sensations, centered etc...) and my awareness suddenly wants to glom onto an image, it's seldom the old man image that pops up first but rather, the bristle in the tree leaves or the warm in the sand below my bare feet etc..
I guess when I'm in a spiritual grip, IT's most natural form (before my conscious state intervenes) is one of beauty, light, fire, breeze etc.. that comes to me with a presence. This could be karma, energy, God?
I'd guess it's nothing we will ever know with indisputable, agreed upon proof, but rather sharpens our humanism by making us delve into the great unknown depths of seeking, into the vast realms of faith & belief.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't think God has limits as you say.
I think it's about perspective. Our human lives are just a blink of an eye compared to our eternity. The things that happen while we're alive on earth matter greatly to us now, but I don't think they matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.
Plus, something good almost always comes from "bad" things happening. It may seem like the bad thing is worse to us than the good result, but looking at it from an eternal perspective might change that opinion.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Hail, Hail!!!
its the same thing for me..there is an energy up there..
others call it God,karma,luck,...there is something out and up there..whatever you wanna call it..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
That said, do you consciously expend either a positive or negative energy out into the world? I'm really trying to set aside any sort of faith in looking for different answers, as "faith" is an easy choice to fall back on... Rather a consciousness or faith in oneself, or even the focus that energy is everywhere; a metaphysical viewpoint... I'm just exploring these ideas I guess. I'm looking up doism right now.
I've thought of that, I think it's valid, and can be thrown into the mix...
Do you believe in energy?
Energy... such as particle and wave energy? The forces in place that moves the Universe? The life force that all living things possess? Yup.
And not subscribing to 'God's Will' does not negate that possibility of the God of all Nature. I just believe that God is not a thinking/reasoning entity... more of the energy that creates. God(Nature) does not care about the day to day affairs this planet of highly evolved apes... that is what we are supposed to be doing. We are the results of a random set of circumstances that created an environment capable of supporting life... at this time, in this space.
I believe that we should do good things... not to please some God... or so karma will reward us. We should do good things... well... just because. I believe we are capable of doing this... but, we choose to look out for ourselves... basically, because we are animals... like apes. I hope that someday we seperate ourselves from the other animals and see that the world is much bigger than ourselves. But, I have a feeling we won't... because we are animals... like apes.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree that good things usually come from bad. So does Kushner. He relates that dealing with the illness that killed his young son made him a better rabbi, a better husband, a better friend, and many other things. He also says that he would give up all the things he gained to have his son back.
As I said, I try to be realistic. The bad things that have happened in my life have possibly made me a better person but I don't think they were deliberately done to me by God or karma so that I could grow as a person. The world is a complicated place and I'm still learning.
You all know where I stand as a Christian man. So first off I will say that it even says in the bible that we have our free-will. Therefore God is not involved in our day to day lives and small decisions. He also is not arbitrary. You will not recieve blessings if you give more money to a church and you will not recieve less, if you dont go to church. You cannot buy your blessings!
I think that once you are saved and you recieve the Holy Spirit, then you have the capacity to be blessed as you walk this life's steps. Many of your steps are "ordered" and some of them are your own "carnal mind" moving forward. I think of it like this, once you are saved you are inside a triangle with God the creator at the top, Jesus to the bottom right, and the Holy Spirit to the bottom left. Being inside that triangle, called the Trinity, you have a relationship with all 3. The relationship with the Holy Spirit provides the fruit that we all seek. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness, Meekness, Self-Control, etc. You begin to have a relationship with Jesus and God the Father. You will build your inner peace and find your purpose. So having a relationship with any or all 3 is a "state of mind".
Gods will happens when it moves you and others toward that relationship with Trinity. There is a reason for everything and sometimes its divine! When its divine, its God's will. The power of God works in us and our hearts change when we pursue the righteousness of God. Our hearts are "hard-wired" for righteousness and its all a state of mind. You can believe in a coffee cup up on the shelf and if you worship it the right way, and believe in it immensely, you will be a better person just for that belief. Any time you put something above you, you submit yourself to that thing, or entitiy. This is why the atheist Founding Fathers also wanted for us to get our rights from God and not from Govt.! They understood this philosophy and "state of mind"
Karma can be Gods will and vice versa. It depends how one chooses to percieve it. If a man robs a bank and gets arrested, then thats his Karma. If he gets away and moves to an island far away, his Karma is yet to be delivered. Once something "out of normal" happens to him, then he realizes this could be his Karma payment. Its his state of mind that tells him he is recieving his Karma that is due. Nobody else understands or sees his payment come to him, right? So its only in his mind that he recieves Karma for his wrongdoing. Rarely does another person know or see the Karma payment being made. Good or bad! In this case, the guy runs to an island and gets away with robbing a bank. We all think he gets away....but his "state of mind" for the rest of his life.....could be his KARMA! Conviction? Repentance? Guilt? Paranoia? Anxiety? could all be on the menu for this guys entire life.
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
All people need to do more on every level!
I know Karma.
Every time Shit goes sour, and I can't think of how I've wrong the universe.
I'm told, Karma is coming back good for you!
Every time Shit goes sour, and I think of the bad thing I did to wrong the universe.
I'm told, Karma is giving you a payback.
After so many decades of this...
I realize KARMA is a BEEEchh.
It works with G*d
A messenger... I'm still not religious.
"Crap rolls downhill, don't be in the path, " -UK-
I was lost after Christian Man... why is that necessary? I bought a car from a Christian. The transmission blew out three days later. Was It G*d's will? I also bought a car from a Jew. The Russian mechanic told me 3 days later the transmission was not good. Was it G*d's will? I thought for a while... maybe I need to drive a stick and not do business with people that put their religion on a business card. So, I went to the Ford dealership.
Brian is so Right! This thread is done.
Thanks for good vibes, STAYSEA. :wave:
But I doubt we've heard the last of this thread.
Nothing is known.
You finished!
I live life like
"LAST KISS"
(my cat is pissing.. I'm happy.. It's been bloody for days, and he just peed very well with no pain! no Blood, is that Karma?)
He is named Confucious ... a prophet to us all?
I will gladly scoop his pee out of a box! I'm so proud. This sounds strange, but you know me.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
the love you take is equal to the love you make
due simply to human nature
"god's will" is used to cover anything and everything good or bad and (to me) is a senseless reasoning
"what a long, strange trip it's been"