Karma vs. "God's will"

Jeanwah
Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
edited January 2013 in A Moving Train
I was watching Enlightened on HBO last night and the main character asks a co-worker if she believed in karma or "what comes around goes around". The co-worker responds that she doesn't, that she believes that everything is God-willed, and everything that happens to us is God's doing.

Seeing that most on the forum is pretty non-religious, I'm already guessing that many believe in karma (as do I). But I know some people personally who are religious and think much like the co-worker on the show; they also go to church & believe they are good people for doing that, yet they have toxic attitudes in general, and believe that being a good church-goer makes up for their negative actions. One thing I have noticed about some of these people - nothing bad happens to them. Granted, defining what's bad can be subjective, but on the whole as an outside viewer, they really have had a pretty good life; nothing big to complain about.

So, it makes me wonder about the whole faith - worship and if it has something on karma and in the energy we put out is what we receive back. Because for the corrupt church goers I know who don't believe in karma? Well, karma doesn't seem to happen to them. Thoughts?
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1

Comments

  • Who Princess
    Who Princess out here in the fields Posts: 7,305
    Is really an either/or? I don't believe in karma because I know that many bad people don't ever "get what's coming to them." Although I'm a person of faith (but not a churchgoer), I also don't believe that the events in my life are necessarily "God's will." I can't pretend to know the mind of God.

    It's possible that the churchgoers you see haven't had anything "bad" happen to them but it may also depend on your definition of "bad." I think many people are able to live their lives without a true catastrophe (horrible crime, natural disaster, devastating health condition) whether they are believers or not.
    "The stars are all connected to the brain."
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Who Princess wrote:
    Is really an either/or? I don't believe in karma because I know that many bad people don't ever "get what's coming to them." Although I'm a person of faith (but not a churchgoer), I also don't believe that the events in my life are necessarily "God's will." I can't pretend to know the mind of God.

    It's possible that the churchgoers you see haven't had anything "bad" happen to them but it may also depend on your definition of "bad." I think many people are able to live their lives without a true catastrophe (horrible crime, natural disaster, devastating health condition) whether they are believers or not.

    You said it yourself "...I don't believe in karma because I know many bad people don't ever "get what's coming to them". And I mentioned that the def. of "bad" is subjective... How about people who do good and have many bad things happen? how do you explain that? Just curious.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Quite the heavy subject for this Monday morning! (not that I mind, at all :) )

    I can't profess to know what hard times are visited upon us, how we deal with them. But I believe none of us - the faithful, the not, the in-betweens, are immune to darkness of all shades. Health, financial, grief, etc...eventually they come knocking.

    I'm inclined to go with Who P's view of it not being an either/or thing. I like to think (but don't know) that karma gets those in the end, for better or worse - in the sense that we do eventually have to own up to our actions, our choices. They catch up with us. WE catch up with us.

    Whether that happens in this life or something after, I don't know.

    Whether that just IS life, I don't know.





    Sidenote - Is karma god? I mean, if karma rewards or punishes us, is that just giving a different name to that granter?
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,777
    I believe in Karma because so much of my life seems to fit well with the idea of both good and bad Karma- the way things turn out when I've tried to be thoughtful or kind or helpful etc as opposed to when I've been a jerk or negative or selfish.

    God's will doesn't make sense to me because I don't see how there would be a point to existence if the universe were run by a puppet master.

    The other reason Karma makes sense to me is the notion that out thoughts are electrical impulses. You know- that whole acetylcholine/ synaptic vesicle thing our brains do. When our thoughts occur, electrical impulses run through our brain and emanate from our bodies out into the universe. (This is not hocus pocus- It's scientifically proven but I'm too lazy this morning to provide the references.) Anyway, since our thoughts emanate out from us, it makes sense to me that they would cause a reaction in kind. I think that's why you get a good or a bad vibe in a room of people depending on what the atmosphere is like at the time. That same thing combined with the positive electrical impulses sent out by the band and the constant feedback of that and the audiences good thoughts is probably what makes Pearl Jam concerts so awesome. Good vibes, good Karma!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Who Princess
    Who Princess out here in the fields Posts: 7,305
    Jeanwah wrote:
    You said it yourself "...I don't believe in karma because I know many bad people don't ever "get what's coming to them". And I mentioned that the def. of "bad" is subjective... How about people who do good and have many bad things happen? how do you explain that? Just curious.
    I think Harold Kushner explained it better than I could in When Bad Things Happen to Good People. If you've never read it, it's about reconciling bad things with a faith in a loving and compassionate God. I don't want to sum up a whole book in a sentence or two but it comes down to accepting that even God has limits and can't prevent every bad thing. People make choices to do bad things to others, the natural world responds to weather, gravity, and the other rules that guide it, some people are just downright evil to anyone who happens to be in their reach.

    I'm a hopeful person but I'm also realistic. If I try to do good, it's because it's a way of life that makes the most sense to me. I don't expect good to come to me as a result and there have been many times when it hasn't.
    "The stars are all connected to the brain."
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Who Princess wrote:
    I'm a hopeful person but I'm also realistic. If I try to do good, it's because it's a way of life that makes the most sense to me. I don't expect good to come to me as a result and there have been many times when it hasn't.
    Yup - and that's what "doing good" is all about. Expectation of reward sullies it, otherwise.
  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    I don't believe it's either. To me, karma is just another manifestation of god. Instead, if we live our lives as jerks then people will most likely respond in kind. Sometimes, I may have a temporary asshole moment, getting pissed at the slow ass driver in front of me and then he cuts me off, which is a human action with an equal human reaction. In regards to other events like cancer, I think there are health and environmental factors that cause us to become ill and we aren't being punished for being bad but instead there are natural consequences for the negative forces that we come in contact with on a daily basis. If I look at it that way it factors out "I'm a good person but something bad happened to me" mentality. Of course, there are random events that occur that defy explanation and I don't think we'll ever get a satisfactory explanation for those events.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    in some religions/faiths, karma and god's will are the same thing. I personally believe in karma, but my personal definition is more of a positive/negative energy thing. if you emit positive energy, positive energy will come back. same thing with negative energy.

    you'll notice this in a literal/physical sense, where negative people and gossipers tend to attract each other.

    and just because you don't see any outward signs of something bad happening to someone, that doesn't at ALL mean it hasn't. I know lots of people who SEEM to have perfect lives, but are miserable on the inside and privately.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    For the references to karma being God, what do atheists think? I don't believe karma and God is one in the same,just my opinion. Think that's why I framed the OP as " one or the other"...
  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    Jeanwah wrote:
    For the references to karma being God, what do atheists think? I don't believe karma and God is one in the same,just my opinion. Think that's why I framed the OP as " one or the other"...

    My understanding of some religions that believe in karma is that it is indeed god dispensing the good or the bad while other branches believe it is a cause and effect relationship that brings the good and bad. I believe in cause and effect so if that is the definition of karma then that is what I believe.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Who Princess wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:
    You said it yourself "...I don't believe in karma because I know many bad people don't ever "get what's coming to them". And I mentioned that the def. of "bad" is subjective... How about people who do good and have many bad things happen? how do you explain that? Just curious.
    I think Harold Kushner explained it better than I could in When Bad Things Happen to Good People. If you've never read it, it's about reconciling bad things with a faith in a loving and compassionate God. I don't want to sum up a whole book in a sentence or two but it comes down to accepting that even God has limits and can't prevent every bad thing. People make choices to do bad things to others, the natural world responds to weather, gravity, and the other rules that guide it, some people are just downright evil to anyone who happens to be in their reach.

    I'm a hopeful person but I'm also realistic. If I try to do good, it's because it's a way of life that makes the most sense to me. I don't expect good to come to me as a result and there have been many times when it hasn't.

    Book looks interesting, I can understand that viewpoint, but I also wonder how an atheist might explain why bad things might happen to good people. I've also heard the POV that we create our realities and everything that happens, good and bad, are our own personal doing. (Not sure I agree with that)

    I agree that the way we should live should not be about what may come to us. A selfish way of living like that and only doing good because the karma will come back around defeats all reasons of doing good, in my opinion. Just living a way that makes sense and also detaching ourselves from outcomes seems ideal, while looking out for others.
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 32,090
    It's either Good luck or Bad luck ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • dancepartner
    dancepartner Posts: 324
    I'm in the "To Label IT is to Lose IT" camp; Daoism. Though not avidly indoctrinated here, it's one Dao concept I've often reflected upon and end feeling most aligned with.
    So, sorry I can't be much help here Jeanwah but I can't go with an either or choice. I do however, believe in an IT. How we choose to define IT, and what labels conjure up the best fit, I see as a personal choice.

    In the Cristian traditional sense; (God is an old man with white beard hanging out above the clouds in a white robe) is an image I try to refrain from but it's hard -- childhood indoctrination being such as it is. However, at any time in which I feel a strong connection to IT, (inner peace, tingling sensations, centered etc...) and my awareness suddenly wants to glom onto an image, it's seldom the old man image that pops up first but rather, the bristle in the tree leaves or the warm in the sand below my bare feet etc..
    I guess when I'm in a spiritual grip, IT's most natural form (before my conscious state intervenes) is one of beauty, light, fire, breeze etc.. that comes to me with a presence. This could be karma, energy, God?
    I'd guess it's nothing we will ever know with indisputable, agreed upon proof, but rather sharpens our humanism by making us delve into the great unknown depths of seeking, into the vast realms of faith & belief.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    I don't believe in Karma and I don't think everything that happens is God's will. I don't think God has that kind of control over people.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Who Princess wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:
    You said it yourself "...I don't believe in karma because I know many bad people don't ever "get what's coming to them". And I mentioned that the def. of "bad" is subjective... How about people who do good and have many bad things happen? how do you explain that? Just curious.
    I think Harold Kushner explained it better than I could in When Bad Things Happen to Good People. If you've never read it, it's about reconciling bad things with a faith in a loving and compassionate God. I don't want to sum up a whole book in a sentence or two but it comes down to accepting that even God has limits and can't prevent every bad thing. People make choices to do bad things to others, the natural world responds to weather, gravity, and the other rules that guide it, some people are just downright evil to anyone who happens to be in their reach.

    I'm a hopeful person but I'm also realistic. If I try to do good, it's because it's a way of life that makes the most sense to me. I don't expect good to come to me as a result and there have been many times when it hasn't.

    I don't think God has limits as you say.

    I think it's about perspective. Our human lives are just a blink of an eye compared to our eternity. The things that happen while we're alive on earth matter greatly to us now, but I don't think they matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.

    Plus, something good almost always comes from "bad" things happening. It may seem like the bad thing is worse to us than the good result, but looking at it from an eternal perspective might change that opinion.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    I'm in the camp that subscribes to neither.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,726
    good topic and thread to read..

    its the same thing for me..there is an energy up there..

    others call it God,karma,luck,...there is something out and up there..whatever you wanna call it..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    dancepartner wrote:
    I'm in the "To Label IT is to Lose IT" camp; Daoism. Though not avidly indoctrinated here, it's one Dao concept I've often reflected upon and end feeling most aligned with.
    So, sorry I can't be much help here Jeanwah but I can't go with an either or choice. I do however, believe in an IT. How we choose to define IT, and what labels conjure up the best fit, I see as a personal choice.

    In the Cristian traditional sense; (God is an old man with white beard hanging out above the clouds in a white robe) is an image I try to refrain from but it's hard -- childhood indoctrination being such as it is. However, at any time in which I feel a strong connection to IT, (inner peace, tingling sensations, centered etc...) and my awareness suddenly wants to glom onto an image, it's seldom the old man image that pops up first but rather, the bristle in the tree leaves or the warm in the sand below my bare feet etc..
    I guess when I'm in a spiritual grip, IT's most natural form (before my conscious state intervenes) is one of beauty, light, fire, breeze etc.. that comes to me with a presence. This could be karma, energy, God?
    I'd guess it's nothing we will ever know with indisputable, agreed upon proof, but rather sharpens our humanism by making us delve into the great unknown depths of seeking, into the vast realms of faith & belief.

    That said, do you consciously expend either a positive or negative energy out into the world? I'm really trying to set aside any sort of faith in looking for different answers, as "faith" is an easy choice to fall back on... Rather a consciousness or faith in oneself, or even the focus that energy is everywhere; a metaphysical viewpoint... I'm just exploring these ideas I guess. I'm looking up doism right now.
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    josevolution wrote:
    It's either Good luck or Bad luck ...

    I've thought of that, I think it's valid, and can be thrown into the mix...
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Cosmo wrote:
    I'm in the camp that subscribes to neither.

    Do you believe in energy?

Categories