My Solution

riotgrl

unsung wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

unsung wrote:

And my weapons have never imposed on your rights or your life.

I have been threatened with a gun - not your gun but a gun. That infringed on my rights and my life.

I've never been opposed to people owning guns but to think that large magazines and clips gained without background checks is ok, well, that does infringe on my rights. How can you (the collective you) say that any weapon obtained without a background check is acceptable? That is unconstitutional.

Where have I said that I'm opposed to background checks? I haven't.

While you may not have said that (I did say the collective group of gun owners is against this not you personally) there seem to be many that do oppose background checks.

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

catefrances wrote:

pardon my french but.... fuck that big brother.

I figured this would be the place that people would be all over that, given the love for big government here.

...
Actually, i figured the opposite. You know, with the liberals and their bleeding hearts and ACLU and civils rights and shit... I'd imagine the ones that want a quick and easy way to spot the ones WITHOUT a chip, being here illegally, and not letting them work here, open a bank acount, drive a car, etc... would be for weeding out the non-Americans.
And you can put criminal records on the chips, too. So when a twice convicted armed robber walks into the 7-11, y'all can head for the door.

catefrances

unsung wrote:

catefrances wrote:

pardon my french but.... fuck that big brother.

I figured this would be the place that people would be all over that, given the love for big government here.

you figured wrong... on more than one level.

DS1119

Byrnzie wrote:

DS1119 wrote:

I support legal citizens rights, not criminals rights.

Great, so if Obama makes it illegal to own a semi-automatic weapon then you'll be supporting it, seeing as you're all for the rule of law, and opposed to criminal behaviour, right?

DS1119 wrote:

If it were up to me if someone commits a crime with an illegal firearm, they face the death penalty. I'd say that would curb gun violence a hell of a lot more than worrying about the people who choose to use rifles for protection or sport.

Except the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrence, so your wrong, again.

What Oblahblah supports will never stop gun violence in this country. Concentrates on the non issue which distracts the voter into to thinking he's doing something progressive. And yes...I still believe the death penalty is an effective....very effective deterrent actually.

DS1119

your move now wrote:

as long as we're looking at ridiculous solutions ds why don't we put evryone who wants to be allowed a gun by right and anyone who wants to live in a society which violates human rights... ie the right to a fair trial and put them in their own little community and leave those of us who can use the events to come to the logical conclusion alone????

You're putting words in my mouth...and with this post I am thoroughly :? I have never said anyone is not due a fair trial.

DS1119

unsung wrote:

But the public bites in the name of "safety".

True. Maybe the government should just rename sobriety and citizen checkpoints as "safety checkpoints".

DS1119

Go Beavers wrote:

DS1119 wrote:

Everyone is imbedded with a microchip. Every purchase you make gets put into a database that's sortable and searchable by anyone. Also, the chip can be tracked using GPS. A crime happens...the police can see what people were near the area of the crime...what items they own or have purchased but more importantly where they are now. In the microchip could be such info as BAC and drug levels to. I think such close monitoring of legal citizens would only benefit society and guard against the few who break the laws. It's a small price to pay of our individual freedoms but at the same time very necessary.

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek here, but then why do you then sincerely support roadblocks to catch illegals and drunks?

Because those are criminals. If I owned a legal firearm I would have zero problem with showing the proper documentation if called upon. Just like I have zero problem showing my legally obtained drivers license either when asked or stopping at a roadblock while driving through well known illegal immigrant corridors into this country.

DS1119

JimmyV wrote:

unsung wrote:

And my weapons have never imposed on your rights or your life.

...yet.

The gun advocates consistently pretend that every legally obtained gun is a safe gun. And maybe it is...right up until it isn't.

Same with every beer purchased...same as every vehicle purchased....

JimmyV

DS1119 wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

unsung wrote:

And my weapons have never imposed on your rights or your life.

...yet.

The gun advocates consistently pretend that every legally obtained gun is a safe gun. And maybe it is...right up until it isn't.

Same with every beer purchased...same as every vehicle purchased....

You keep comparing cars and booze to guns and it is one of the weakest arguments I have heard from the pro-gun crowd. Of those three only guns are designed to kill. The other two may, but that is far from their purpose. I understand the point you are trying to make but it is a really poor one.

goingtoverona

so jimmy in your opinion a life is only worth saving if it is being taken by something designed to kill? i think the car booze analogy is the best way to point out that you guys don't care about saving lives, you just want to get rid of guns.

JimmyV

goingtoverona wrote:

so jimmy in your opinion a life is only worth saving if it is being taken by something designed to kill? i think the car booze analogy is the best way to point out that you guys don't care about saving lives, you just want to get rid of guns.

First of all, don't tell me what I care about because you don't know me or anything about my life experience.

Second of all, anyone who wants to take action to prevent alcohol abuse and promote automotive safety is encouraged to do so. But pretending that either booze or a car is a the same as an assault rifle is ridiculous. I would think the gun lobby could come up with better.

dimitrispearljam

JimmyV wrote:

Second of all, anyone who wants to take action to prevent alcohol abuse and promote automotive safety is encouraged to do so. But pretending that either booze or a car is a the same as an assault rifle is ridiculous. I would think the gun lobby could come up with better.

i try to help the forum with my perfect English....
so easy to understand the difference between those 3..if u have some brain in the head...

Car
An automobile, autocar, motor car or car is a wheeled motor vehicle used for transporting passengers, which also carries its own engine or motor.

Gun
A gun is a weapon,a weapon, arm, or armament is a tool, device, or instrument used in order to inflict damage or harm to enemies or other living beings, structures, or systems.

Alchohol
An alcoholic beverage is a drink containing ethanol, commonly known as alcohol. Alcoholic beverages are divided into three general classes: beers, wines, and spirits.

JonnyPistachio

JimmyV wrote:

goingtoverona wrote:

so jimmy in your opinion a life is only worth saving if it is being taken by something designed to kill? i think the car booze analogy is the best way to point out that you guys don't care about saving lives, you just want to get rid of guns.

First of all, don't tell me what I care about because you don't know me or anything about my life experience.

Second of all, anyone who wants to take action to prevent alcohol abuse and promote automotive safety is encouraged to do so. But pretending that either booze or a car is a the same as an assault rifle is ridiculous. I would think the gun lobby could come up with better.

Exactly, I dont know why its so hard to do TWO things at once...or multiple things. We can advocate for DUI laws while at the same time discussing gun control. Its stupid to say someone doesnt care about drunk driving deaths simply because we're discussing guns. :roll: The analogies are silly ways to make distractions from the problem being discussed.

And I've made the point a zillion times, people drink. In the USA people drink a lot, everyday. We've created laws to combat DUI. They need to be better. But I personally know several people who have been convicted of DUI's and are being helped by new laws and restricitons. They have breathalyzers on their cars and it works. It does deter some people. So new things are happening in that dept. At the same time, maybe its time we discuss the fact that AR-15's are too redily available to law abiding citizens that snap one day. Magazine limits could be reduced with minimal inconvenience to gun owners. There's a problem with guns in the USA compared to the rest of the world, that is a fact, and there are several things that need to be looked at.

Zoso

so we have a big brother state? as opposed to common sense gun control laws... hmmm ok.

dimitrispearljam

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-j ... un-control

dancepartner

A post about implanting chips is now just one more Op about gun control??? Ugh.
Back to chips.
1) A heavily controlled society is just that. And, it has spiraled humanity backwards -- always. Freedom is something innate in us which is why, thru all the blood & gore of every revolution, humans have pushed toward a freer than ever existence. Today's technology is the cats meow for any powermonger looking to control us. Imagine just how invincible Hitler would have been had his SS had even a fraction of the monitoring going on that we now have.
2) Humanity has suffered unspeakable, large scale horrors, at the hands a a mere few diabolical powerheads. All of this is history 101. So now, why would we think this primo power control tool would not end up getting used against us in this Ageless, Power Dance of Time? Ugh!! Will we never learn???
3) Also, Brazil & Mexico have already tried using RF tracking on kids due to their high kidnapping rate. The result? Even bad guys know how to cut (crudely & viciously) the devices outta these kids.
Honestly, realize: just as soon (even prior to for the wealthy) as this horrific policy gets implemented -- the inventions & ways to disable, eradicate from body, implant misinformation chips, rewire for erroneous tracking methods (providing the indisputable proof someone else was the perp!) etc...I can't even begin to think of all the inventive ways the rich, the creative & the bad guys will pay the $$ to skirt around this.
In the end, only the law abiding will be tracked. To counter: more heavily controlled edicts will be implemented. A vicious circle ensues and ends up being just another perfect storm scenario for the next diabolical ruler. Ones who are probably rubbing their hands together right now, hardly able to contain themselves as they await for every fearful society to eagerly sign up for this insanity.
People, humanity only trudges forward by its societies becoming ever-more individually responsible in a mass-minded way. Those are Carl Jung's words. Meaning, we are in charge of what's acceptable in our society. Powerful propaganda has become the spearhead of the powerful used to counter our solidarity. Remember, communication is everything to communal us. This only means we won't be the first society to naively take the bait (fear sells incredibly well) for power control.

Here's where we're at: we've had a breakdown in the family nucleus and THAT is what needs shored up. This is up to ALL of us. We must push ourselves beyond insulated comfort zones in ways where "what's acceptable behavior" is evidenced by our youth. We must show our own, societal acceptance approval each day; at the store, on the street, to any young parent who actually parents. Maybe we've become so passive we won't actually stand up to admonish poor parental behavior, but like the saying goes -- it takes a whole village to raise a child. Well, its true and it's been the case since time immemorable, that is of course -- until late.
We simply have to move out from our insulated barrier state, our past 50 yr existence of being plugged in, & consider ways in which to become part of society again to make ourselves more visible about what's acceptable. We don't have to be arrogant jerks. I know there's some teachers on this train and I suspect riotgirl works in some behavior field. To those: PLEASE provide clever suggestions that work for you in dealing with society-general. There are riders here who don't have kids or are still young adults yet themselves, ones who seem fully capable of behaving within acceptable parameters, but unless your living experience is of a larger group, I'd say it's not so easy then, to figure out how to move in that interactive flow in which extended familial bases seem to do naturally. And thus, then expands.
The thing is, we are a communal species so we should consider that even though a live & let live mindset might have helped diminish the overlord control within small pods, it has stunted the tried & true knowing that it really does take a whole village to raise the next generation.
And for those who think a controlling entity, (government, ruler) should maintain acceptable societal parameters for us as we can't be bothered, then just know: societies have gotten lazy and/or been duped into discarding their en-masse responsibility thousands of times. This precipitates a spiraling of humanity backwards -- always.

JonnyPistachio

I know its kinda far off in the future, but these kinds of things can be done and we gotta start somewhere:

Make guns smart
http://us.cnn.com/2013/01/09/opinion/sh ... ?hpt=hp_t1

Voices across the political spectrum are debating how to prevent mass shootings such as the one in Newtown, Connecticut. Familiar ideological lines are being redrawn. Some want to renew the ban on assault weapons and expand waiting periods to buy a gun. Others want to place armed guards in schools. And then there is the challenge of preventing guns from falling into the hands of the mentally ill.

While the debate rages on, it's worth thinking out of the box for a moment. What if we could design guns to be smarter and safer -- with hardware and software? The right technology could neutralize the killing capability of an assault weapon, even in a madman's hands.

The root of the problem is that guns are "dumb." Pull the trigger and they discharge bullets mindlessly, regardless of who is doing the aiming or where they are aimed. Guns should "know" not to fire in schools, churches, hospitals or malls. They should sense when they are being aimed at a child, or at a person when no other guns are nearby.

Hardware fixes alone -- such as a ban on extended clips -- may mitigate carnage in an assault, but they will not change the risk that an event happens at all if the person holding the gun wants to harm others. Addressing that challenge with reliable precision requires a hardware and software solution.

Stay up to date on the latest opinion, analysis and conversations through social media. Join us at Facebook/CNNOpinion and follow us @CNNOpinion on Twitter. We welcome your ideas and comments.

Many complex products have been transformed by safety-enhancing technology. Look at airplanes, which have layers of computer-controlled safety features to temper pilot error. Cars, increasingly, have sophisticated controls to override drivers and avoid collisions. Guns, too, can benefit from technological advances.

After the Newtown shooting, a number of Silicon Valley leaders signed the "Demand a Plan" petition for new gun laws. It is good to know how strongly they feel about tougher regulation. It would be even better if they would invest their know-how and wealth to create a new kind of gun control -- the software kind.

How might this work? Start with locational "self-awareness." Guns should know where they are and if another gun is nearby. Global positioning systems can meet most of the need, refining a gun's location to the building level, even within buildings. Control of the gun would remain in the hand of the person carrying it, but the ability to fire multiple shots in crowded areas or when no other guns are present would be limited by software that understands where the gun is being used.

Hoover: 'We do not need more guns' Looking beyond assault weapons ban Jones: 'We will not relinquish' guns
Guns should also be designed to sense where they are being aimed. Artificial vision and optical sensing technology can be adapted from military and medical communities. Sensory data can be used by built-in software to disable firing if the gun is pointed at a child or someone holding a child.

Building software into guns need not affect gun owners' desire to protect their homes. Trigger control software could be relaxed when the gun is at home or in a car, while other safety features stay on to prevent accidental discharges. Guns used by the police would be exempt from such controls.

Finally, guns should be designed to broadcast their location when they are loaded. Police could see if high-powered assault weapons are entering or getting close to a public place. Gun owners, too, could choose to broadcast their guns' locations publicly to increase deterrent effect.

Couldn't gun software be hacked? Perhaps, but the risk can be reduced by open-sourcing code, requiring software patch downloads, and notifying gun makers or law enforcement if software is disabled. Open-sourcing code is not foolproof, but it will build a community of lawful gun owners and code writers who value safety and Second Amendment rights. Enabling two-way communication between guns and their original makers will help guns to be tracked beyond the initial sale, putting greater long-term responsibility on gun makers.

Developing gun software and hardware adaptations could be hastened through a Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency-style program. This Defense Department agency tries to solve difficult warfare challenges with cutting-edge ideas. It gave us GPS, among other things. In the private sector, rewards can be offered for specific technological achievements, such as what the X Prize Foundation has been doing. Gun makers, gun retailers, even the National Rifle Association could underwrite a similar prize.

Gun software could be phased in, starting with the most lethal assault rifles. Today's guns are componentized, creating possibilities for a vibrant aftermarket, with add-ons tested and certified by a consortium of gun makers or responsible gun owners.

Technology cannot end depravity or violence, but it can limit the evil a person can inflict on others. After this latest heart-wrenching massacre, enacting new laws may help us feel like we have done something. But smarter technology may actually do a lot more.

dudeman

This is the best post I've read on here. Ever. Thank you and please reproduce.

dancepartner wrote:

A post about implanting chips is now just one more Op about gun control??? Ugh.
Back to chips.
1) A heavily controlled society is just that. And, it has spiraled humanity backwards -- always. Freedom is something innate in us which is why, thru all the blood & gore of every revolution, humans have pushed toward a freer than ever existence. Today's technology is the cats meow for any powermonger looking to control us. Imagine just how invincible Hitler would have been had his SS had even a fraction of the monitoring going on that we now have.
2) Humanity has suffered unspeakable, large scale horrors, at the hands a a mere few diabolical powerheads. All of this is history 101. So now, why would we think this primo power control tool would not end up getting used against us in this Ageless, Power Dance of Time? Ugh!! Will we never learn???
3) Also, Brazil & Mexico have already tried using RF tracking on kids due to their high kidnapping rate. The result? Even bad guys know how to cut (crudely & viciously) the devices outta these kids.
Honestly, realize: just as soon (even prior to for the wealthy) as this horrific policy gets implemented -- the inventions & ways to disable, eradicate from body, implant misinformation chips, rewire for erroneous tracking methods (providing the indisputable proof someone else was the perp!) etc...I can't even begin to think of all the inventive ways the rich, the creative & the bad guys will pay the $$ to skirt around this.
In the end, only the law abiding will be tracked. To counter: more heavily controlled edicts will be implemented. A vicious circle ensues and ends up being just another perfect storm scenario for the next diabolical ruler. Ones who are probably rubbing their hands together right now, hardly able to contain themselves as they await for every fearful society to eagerly sign up for this insanity.
People, humanity only trudges forward by its societies becoming ever-more individually responsible in a mass-minded way. Those are Carl Jung's words. Meaning, we are in charge of what's acceptable in our society. Powerful propaganda has become the spearhead of the powerful used to counter our solidarity. Remember, communication is everything to communal us. This only means we won't be the first society to naively take the bait (fear sells incredibly well) for power control.

Here's where we're at: we've had a breakdown in the family nucleus and THAT is what needs shored up. This is up to ALL of us. We must push ourselves beyond insulated comfort zones in ways where "what's acceptable behavior" is evidenced by our youth. We must show our own, societal acceptance approval each day; at the store, on the street, to any young parent who actually parents. Maybe we've become so passive we won't actually stand up to admonish poor parental behavior, but like the saying goes -- it takes a whole village to raise a child. Well, its true and it's been the case since time immemorable, that is of course -- until late.
We simply have to move out from our insulated barrier state, our past 50 yr existence of being plugged in, & consider ways in which to become part of society again to make ourselves more visible about what's acceptable. We don't have to be arrogant jerks. I know there's some teachers on this train and I suspect riotgirl works in some behavior field. To those: PLEASE provide clever suggestions that work for you in dealing with society-general. There are riders here who don't have kids or are still young adults yet themselves, ones who seem fully capable of behaving within acceptable parameters, but unless your living experience is of a larger group, I'd say it's not so easy then, to figure out how to move in that interactive flow in which extended familial bases seem to do naturally. And thus, then expands.
The thing is, we are a communal species so we should consider that even though a live & let live mindset might have helped diminish the overlord control within small pods, it has stunted the tried & true knowing that it really does take a whole village to raise the next generation.
And for those who think a controlling entity, (government, ruler) should maintain acceptable societal parameters for us as we can't be bothered, then just know: societies have gotten lazy and/or been duped into discarding their en-masse responsibility thousands of times. This precipitates a spiraling of humanity backwards -- always.

fortyshades

DS1119 wrote:

I support legal citizens rights, not criminals rights. If it were up to me if someone commits a crime with an illegal firearm, they face the death penalty. I'd say that would curb gun violence a hell of a lot more than worrying about the people who choose to use rifles for protection or sport.

And someone who kills with a legal firearm; also the death penalty? Or can you garantuee my safety and my (human) rights that everyone with a semi-automatic is sound and sane...

I heard all this paranoid stuff in the early ninetees. Chips implanted in babies. No more need for bankcards. Big brother is watching you. Orwell. 1984... etc. etc. etc. I am still waiting for the first chip...

fear4freedom

The Mark of the Beast!