26 or 27 Victims?

Cliffy6745

This article got me thinking about everyone referring to there being 26 rather than 27 victims and I am having a tough time coming to a conclusion on how I feel about it. Sure, Nancy Lanza was certainly negligent and definitely shoulders blame in this tragedy, but at the same time, this is obviously not what she wanted to happen. From all accounts, she thought she was helping him. She made some very big mistakes and there are a lot of lives lost partly because of it and the anger is certainly warranted, but I just don't know if I feel like she should be completely left out of the equation. I have seen first hand the lengths moms go to to try and "save" lost sons, this seems like one of those situations.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... ictim.html

So are there 26 or 27 victims? Should she be seen as a victim or an accomplice?

JimmyV

She was a victim even though she may not have been an innocent one. I think calling her an accomplice is a bridge too far.

Cliffy6745

JimmyV wrote:

She was a victim even though she may not have been an innocent one. I think calling her an accomplice is a bridge too far.

I agree, I didn't mean it literally, just how a lot of people seem to be talking about her.

Who Princess

I'm kind of shocked at the way people are talking about a woman who was shot in the face 4 times as she lay in bed. I realize people need someone to blame but I haven't heard nearly as much anger toward the shooter himself as I've heard against his mother.

Yes, she taught her kids to shoot. I know many people who enjoy target practice and only shoot at a gun range. Not my idea of fun but I get that some people enjoy developing the skill. I've known people who learned to shoot as teenagers from their parents and none of them went on to become killers, or even gun hobbyists.

Yes, her son was troubled. We don't yet know to what extent and we don't know what kind of treatment he received. I've yet to hear how she secured her guns but since she was out of town a couple of days before the shooting he may have had the time and opportunity to get to them.

The shooter was an ADULT, albeit a young one. The blame falls on him.

gimmesometruth27

she was murdered. to me that makes her a victim of violence.

can some of the blame for this be placed at her feet? to an extent. in the end she lost her life just as the other victims, so to me she is a victim.

JimmyV

Cliffy6745 wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

She was a victim even though she may not have been an innocent one. I think calling her an accomplice is a bridge too far.

I agree, I didn't mean it literally, just how a lot of people seem to be talking about her.

Oh, I know. I have heard the issue come up too.

blackredyellow

Obviously she is a victim...

She obviously cared for her son, and did what she thought was right. We are in no place to question that, as most of us don't have a clue as to what her life was like. But having those weapons in the house where he could get to them is unforgivable, no matter how secure she may have thought they were.

Every time you hear one of those stories about a child accidentally shooting themselves or a friend with a gun they found in the house, you feel terribly for the parents losing their child, but at the same time, they somewhat contributed to the tragedy by not securing the gun.

redrock

Who Princess wrote:

The shooter was an ADULT, albeit a young one. The blame falls on him.

Absolutely.

The mother was a victim.

I know she has been vilified by the sensationalist media and all kinds of rumours spread by 'sources'. More 'reasonable' reports suggest she was a devoted mother looking for the best interests of her son, and a decent woman. They had money and her son received care. As WP said, she taught her kids to shoot but many do - not out of the ordinary in the USA. Hell... loads here on the board said they went shooting/hunting with their parents. We don't know how the weapons were stored but, again, many don't store their weapons safely (just read the news about kids getting hold of daddy's gun and, here as well, one or two admitting having a loaded weapon readily available). We also do not know what the issues were with her son, the only common reporting being about him having some form of Asperger's which is not a condition that leads to the violent actions the killer took. He was functional as we all are, albeit a bit differently.

Again, the killer was an adult. You can keep dangerous items away from kids quite easily but not from adults that share a home with you.

Cliffy6745

Agreed with all. I understand the anger a bit though. I don't think all of it is warranted but I get it.

She obviously didn't envision this happening but it's also hard to believe that there were no warning signs along the way, especially if it seems like he needed that much attention. I guess this is a lot of assumptions though. I just hope the families get the closure and information they need.

polaris_x

you gotta ask yourself what is the purpose of not calling her a victim? ... is it perhaps to try and quickly put the blame on something or someone so we can continue on with our day to day lives? ...

Cosmo

Definately, a victim.
She was murdered by an adult while sleeping. Regardless of what we, outsiders, perceive about her misjudgements, she did not groom her son to go on his murderous way. There were things she might have been able to do place more formidable obstacles in his way, but motivated to facilitate the mass murder... no, not really.

Cliffy6745

polaris_x wrote:

you gotta ask yourself what is the purpose of not calling her a victim? ... is it perhaps to try and quickly put the blame on something or someone so we can continue on with our day to day lives? ...

For the victims....anger

For Obama...to avoid controversy

For everyone else...perhaps what you mention and us never wanting to get to the real root of the problem.

EdsonNascimento

polaris_x wrote:

you gotta ask yourself what is the purpose of not calling her a victim? ... is it perhaps to try and quickly put the blame on something or someone so we can continue on with our day to day lives? ...

I don't think it's that cynical. She's clearly a victim by any definition.

I think the 26/27 thing is only differentiating "honoring" the victims at the school period. Let's be honest. If this had "just" been a son murdering his mom in her sleep, we would never of heard of it (or heard of it as a paragraph somewhere buried in the rest of the news. The difference in all this is the 26 victims at the school that had nothing to do with anything. And separating it like that does not make her any less a victim. All it does is distinguish what folks are memorializing and a group of victim's complete and utter detachment from any connection to the goings on at the house.

This is typical, though with most things. Because someone(s) decide to honor one person(s) it somehow slights another. Honoring one person(s) says nothing about the other person(s).

Nancy Lanza was a victim. The 20 kids and 6 adults at the school are clearly another group of victims that can easily be separated for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with the singular one.

EDIT: So, my answer to the OP is - BOTH - depending how you are talking about it.

covered in bliss

I have been assuming the 26 or 27 fluctuation was because of the shooter being counted in the total dead. Most things I've read have said 27 dead, 20 children, 6 adults and the shooter. Aren't people that kill themselves called suicide victims?

I don't think I'll ever think of his mother as a Sandy Hook victim, though.. just a victim of him.

josevolution

Only 26 bell tolls this morning in Newtown ....

rick1zoo2

28

Indifference

rick1zoo2 wrote:

28

mmm....no

EdsonNascimento

josevolution wrote:

Only 26 bell tolls this morning in Newtown ....

Because they are memorializing the victims of Sandy Hook Elementary.

NFL players had SH or SHES on their uniforms. UCONN has SH patches. So, 26 is the proper number. They don't have SHES + NL for the 27th in the overall occurence.

26 is for the Sandy Hook Elementary School

and if you make it 27, it includes the mom.

But, it is NEVER 28. You don't get to make yourself a victim.

jimc3

27 victims

26 innocents who deserve our tears, thoughts and prayers

1 unwitting accomplice that deserves our pity

Bronx Bombers

The high-powered weapons that Adam Lanza used in his murderous rampage weren’t routinely locked up in his home even though his mother knew he had serious psychological problems, a close family friend told the Daily News.

Investigators are focusing on whether Lanza had a “psychotic break” before he murdered his mother, then shot to death 26 children and staffers at Sandy Hook Elementary School last month, the friend said.

Nancy Lanza had brought her son to a psychiatrist and pushed him to get out of the house as he became increasingly antisocial, according to the friend. “He would act like a child. He would scream and shout when she brought up getting out of the house (instead of) spending hours and hours playing video games,” the friend said.

Despite the warning signs, in the months before the massacre, Nancy Lanza didn’t secure her arsenal, which included the Bushmaster XM-15 used by her son in the slaughter, along with a 10-mm. Glock handgun, a 9-mm SIG Sauer handgun and four rifles. “They weren’t under lock and key,” said the friend, who last saw the guns months before the Dec. 14 rampage. “She kept her stuff (the guns) all together in a closet.”

Lanza’s mental health was the focus of a recent interview the Connecticut State Police conducted with the family friend as authorities investigate the Sandy Hook slaughter. “They told me they think he had a psychotic break and were asking if Nancy mentioned anything (to me) about Adam not taking his medications,” the friend told The News.

Experts say a psychotic break occurs when a person experiences a loss of contact with reality that usually includes delusions or hallucinations. The friend couldn’t provide the police with any new information. “He was on some serious medications to help deal with his issues, but (Nancy) never told me what they were or if he stopped taking them,” the friend said.

Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) said the importance of securing weapons is “well recognized by responsible gun owners.” If Nancy Lanza’s failure to secure her guns played a role in the Newton tragedy, he said, “Maybe it serves as a lesson for people who may not follow those basic rules of safety that responsible gun owners follow.”

Lanza, 20, fatally shot his mother before blasting his way into the Newtown, Conn., school. After he murdered 20 children and six staffers with a military-style rifle, he committed suicide as police approached.

http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1243602

26

This mother had total control over every aspect of her mentally disturbed sons life. She was the one who taught him how to shoot. She was the one who allowed him to spend the majority of his time holed up in a basement playing violent video games. She was the one who left an arsenal of weapons unsecured in a house with him even though he was on serious prescription medication which I'm sure well never find out exactly what he was taking.

I have a hard time equating her on the same level as the other victims. It seems to me she was a delusional and completely irresponsible parent who ultimately failed her child. If it wasn't for her this terrible tragedy would have never happened.

JC29856

all this from an unidentified friend....hmmm? taken with a grain of alcohol