26 or 27 Victims?
Cliffy6745
Posts: 33,841
This article got me thinking about everyone referring to there being 26 rather than 27 victims and I am having a tough time coming to a conclusion on how I feel about it. Sure, Nancy Lanza was certainly negligent and definitely shoulders blame in this tragedy, but at the same time, this is obviously not what she wanted to happen. From all accounts, she thought she was helping him. She made some very big mistakes and there are a lot of lives lost partly because of it and the anger is certainly warranted, but I just don't know if I feel like she should be completely left out of the equation. I have seen first hand the lengths moms go to to try and "save" lost sons, this seems like one of those situations.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... ictim.html
So are there 26 or 27 victims? Should she be seen as a victim or an accomplice?
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... ictim.html
So are there 26 or 27 victims? Should she be seen as a victim or an accomplice?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I agree, I didn't mean it literally, just how a lot of people seem to be talking about her.
Yes, she taught her kids to shoot. I know many people who enjoy target practice and only shoot at a gun range. Not my idea of fun but I get that some people enjoy developing the skill. I've known people who learned to shoot as teenagers from their parents and none of them went on to become killers, or even gun hobbyists.
Yes, her son was troubled. We don't yet know to what extent and we don't know what kind of treatment he received. I've yet to hear how she secured her guns but since she was out of town a couple of days before the shooting he may have had the time and opportunity to get to them.
The shooter was an ADULT, albeit a young one. The blame falls on him.
can some of the blame for this be placed at her feet? to an extent. in the end she lost her life just as the other victims, so to me she is a victim.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Oh, I know. I have heard the issue come up too.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
She obviously cared for her son, and did what she thought was right. We are in no place to question that, as most of us don't have a clue as to what her life was like. But having those weapons in the house where he could get to them is unforgivable, no matter how secure she may have thought they were.
Every time you hear one of those stories about a child accidentally shooting themselves or a friend with a gun they found in the house, you feel terribly for the parents losing their child, but at the same time, they somewhat contributed to the tragedy by not securing the gun.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
The mother was a victim.
I know she has been vilified by the sensationalist media and all kinds of rumours spread by 'sources'. More 'reasonable' reports suggest she was a devoted mother looking for the best interests of her son, and a decent woman. They had money and her son received care. As WP said, she taught her kids to shoot but many do - not out of the ordinary in the USA. Hell... loads here on the board said they went shooting/hunting with their parents. We don't know how the weapons were stored but, again, many don't store their weapons safely (just read the news about kids getting hold of daddy's gun and, here as well, one or two admitting having a loaded weapon readily available). We also do not know what the issues were with her son, the only common reporting being about him having some form of Asperger's which is not a condition that leads to the violent actions the killer took. He was functional as we all are, albeit a bit differently.
Again, the killer was an adult. You can keep dangerous items away from kids quite easily but not from adults that share a home with you.
She obviously didn't envision this happening but it's also hard to believe that there were no warning signs along the way, especially if it seems like he needed that much attention. I guess this is a lot of assumptions though. I just hope the families get the closure and information they need.
She was murdered by an adult while sleeping. Regardless of what we, outsiders, perceive about her misjudgements, she did not groom her son to go on his murderous way. There were things she might have been able to do place more formidable obstacles in his way, but motivated to facilitate the mass murder... no, not really.
Hail, Hail!!!
For the victims....anger
For Obama...to avoid controversy
For everyone else...perhaps what you mention and us never wanting to get to the real root of the problem.
I don't think it's that cynical. She's clearly a victim by any definition.
I think the 26/27 thing is only differentiating "honoring" the victims at the school period. Let's be honest. If this had "just" been a son murdering his mom in her sleep, we would never of heard of it (or heard of it as a paragraph somewhere buried in the rest of the news. The difference in all this is the 26 victims at the school that had nothing to do with anything. And separating it like that does not make her any less a victim. All it does is distinguish what folks are memorializing and a group of victim's complete and utter detachment from any connection to the goings on at the house.
This is typical, though with most things. Because someone(s) decide to honor one person(s) it somehow slights another. Honoring one person(s) says nothing about the other person(s).
Nancy Lanza was a victim. The 20 kids and 6 adults at the school are clearly another group of victims that can easily be separated for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with the singular one.
EDIT: So, my answer to the OP is - BOTH - depending how you are talking about it.
I don't think I'll ever think of his mother as a Sandy Hook victim, though.. just a victim of him.
mmm....no
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Because they are memorializing the victims of Sandy Hook Elementary.
NFL players had SH or SHES on their uniforms. UCONN has SH patches. So, 26 is the proper number. They don't have SHES + NL for the 27th in the overall occurence.
26 is for the Sandy Hook Elementary School
and if you make it 27, it includes the mom.
But, it is NEVER 28. You don't get to make yourself a victim.
26 innocents who deserve our tears, thoughts and prayers
1 unwitting accomplice that deserves our pity
Investigators are focusing on whether Lanza had a “psychotic break” before he murdered his mother, then shot to death 26 children and staffers at Sandy Hook Elementary School last month, the friend said.
Nancy Lanza had brought her son to a psychiatrist and pushed him to get out of the house as he became increasingly antisocial, according to the friend. “He would act like a child. He would scream and shout when she brought up getting out of the house (instead of) spending hours and hours playing video games,” the friend said.
Despite the warning signs, in the months before the massacre, Nancy Lanza didn’t secure her arsenal, which included the Bushmaster XM-15 used by her son in the slaughter, along with a 10-mm. Glock handgun, a 9-mm SIG Sauer handgun and four rifles. “They weren’t under lock and key,” said the friend, who last saw the guns months before the Dec. 14 rampage. “She kept her stuff (the guns) all together in a closet.”
Lanza’s mental health was the focus of a recent interview the Connecticut State Police conducted with the family friend as authorities investigate the Sandy Hook slaughter. “They told me they think he had a psychotic break and were asking if Nancy mentioned anything (to me) about Adam not taking his medications,” the friend told The News.
Experts say a psychotic break occurs when a person experiences a loss of contact with reality that usually includes delusions or hallucinations. The friend couldn’t provide the police with any new information. “He was on some serious medications to help deal with his issues, but (Nancy) never told me what they were or if he stopped taking them,” the friend said.
Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) said the importance of securing weapons is “well recognized by responsible gun owners.” If Nancy Lanza’s failure to secure her guns played a role in the Newton tragedy, he said, “Maybe it serves as a lesson for people who may not follow those basic rules of safety that responsible gun owners follow.”
Lanza, 20, fatally shot his mother before blasting his way into the Newtown, Conn., school. After he murdered 20 children and six staffers with a military-style rifle, he committed suicide as police approached.
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1243602
26
This mother had total control over every aspect of her mentally disturbed sons life. She was the one who taught him how to shoot. She was the one who allowed him to spend the majority of his time holed up in a basement playing violent video games. She was the one who left an arsenal of weapons unsecured in a house with him even though he was on serious prescription medication which I'm sure well never find out exactly what he was taking.
I have a hard time equating her on the same level as the other victims. It seems to me she was a delusional and completely irresponsible parent who ultimately failed her child. If it wasn't for her this terrible tragedy would have never happened.
He had access to the guns whether they were secured or not, that's on the mother it was her responsibility as a gun owner to keep them secured especially living in a home with a mentally disturbed kid.
http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.acti ... 4981841169
My biggest problem through all this is that I just don't believe you can ever be sure those guns are secure. Kids will find a way, they are usually smarter than parents think. Especially if they are devious and their parents just don't see it. Not talking about Lanza here, talking about all kids.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
You would think with this kids issues the mother wouldn't have even brought guns into the house in the first place. However there are things she could've done more to limit her sons access to the firearms. Did she have a gun case, did she have trigger locks, did she keep the hundreds of rounds of ammo locked up separately from the guns.
A Gun Safe: Hartford Courant:
"Investigators found a gun safe belonging to Nancy Lanza, the shooter's mother, open and with no evidence that it had been broken into. Adama Lanza shot and killed his mother at their home before going on his rampage at the school, police have said. Police found three photographs of a dead person covered in plastic and blood. The warrants do not indicate whether authorities know the identity of the person. They confiscated a military-style uniform from Adam Lanza's bedroom, the warrants indicate."
1,600 Rounds: CNN: "Investigators found more than 1,600 rounds of ammunition in the house."
Guns as Gifts: Associated Press: "Investigators found a holiday card containing a check made out to Lanza for the purchase of a firearm, authored by his mother, Nancy Lanza. Adam Lanza shot and killed his mother in their Newtown home before driving to the school to carry out the massacre."
Samurai Swords: Yahoo! News: "In addition to several guns inside the home, police also recovered three Samurai swords and long pole with a blade on one side and a spear on the other. Inside the car the shooter drove to the school, officers recovered a 12-gauge shotgun and two magazines containing 70 rounds of ammunition, the documents show."
http://mobile.slate.com/blogs/the_slate ... _than.html
26
Guns, knives, ammo and gear: Adam Lanza's massive arsenal
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03 ... senal?lite
Search warrants released Thursday laid bare the extent of Newtown school massacre suspect Adam Lanza's arsenal. Here is a catalog of the weaponry found at the school where 20 children and six staffers were killed and at the home he shared with his mother, who was also murdered:
At the school:
1 Bushmaster .223 caliber model XM15 rifle with a 30-round magazine
1 Glock 10mm handgun
1 9mm Sig Sauer P226 handgun
1 Saiga 12 shotgun with two magazines containing 70 rounds
6 30-round magazines, three of them emptied
At the home:
Guns:
1 Enfield Albian bolt-action .323 rifle
1 Savage Mark II .22 caliber rifle with magazine, 3 live rounds, 1 spent cartridge
1 black marksman BB gun
Ammunition:
5 Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells cut open, with buckshot
1 white plastic bag with 30 Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells
1 can with .22 caliber and .45 caliber bullets
8 boxes of Winchester Windcat .22 caliber bullets, 50 rounds per box
20 "Estate" 12-gauge shotgun shells
4 boxes of SB buckshot 12-gauge, 10 round per box
1 box of Lightfield 12-gauge slugs
1 box of 20 Prvi Partizan 303 British rifle cartridges
1 box of 20 Federal 303 British rifle cartridges
2 boxes of .22 long rifle Blazer rounds, 50 each box
1 box with numerous rounds of Winchester .45 caliber bullets
2 boxes of 50 rounds of PPU .45 caliber automatic
1 box of 20 rounds for Remington .223 caliber
3 boxes of Blazer 40 S&W, 50 rounds each
2 boxes of Winchester 5.56 mm, 20 rounds each
1 box of Magtech 45ACP with 30 rounds
1 empty Box of SSA 5.56 mm
1 box of Fiocchi .45 auto with 48 rounds
80 rounds of CCI .22 long rifle
6 boxes of PMC .223 rem, 20 rounds each
6 Winchester 9 pellet buckshot shells, 12-gauge
2 Remington 12-gauge slugs
3 Winchester .223 rifle rounds
31 .22 caliber rounds
2 boxes of Underwood 10 mm auto, each with 50 rounds
130 rounds of Lawman 9mm Luger
2 spent shell casings for Glock 10mm
1 empty box of Gold Dot 9mm Luger
2 empty boxes of Winchester 9mm Luger
1 box of Underwood 10mm auto with 34 rounds
1 box of 29 miscellaneous 9mm rounds
1 spent .22 shell casing
1 small plastic bag containing numerous .22 caliber bullets
1 tan bag with numerous Blazer .45 caliber bullets
1 box of Blazer .22 long rifle with 50 rounds
1 box PPU 303 British cartridges with 9 rounds
2 Winchester 9mm rounds
2 brass-colored shell casings
1 small caliber bullet (live round) labeled C
Magazines:
1 Promag 20-round 12-gauge drum magazine
1 MD Arms 20-round 12 gauge drum magazine
3 AGP Arms 12-gauge shotgun magazines
1 Surefire GunMag magazine with 8 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge, 9-pellet buckshot
2 AGP Arms 12-gauge shotgun magazines, taped together, each with 10 rounds of Winchester 9-pellet buckshot
2 empty Ram Line magazines for Ruger 10-22
1 AGP Arms Gen 2 12-gauge shotgun magazine with 10 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge, 9-pellet buckshot
1 clear plastic Ramline magazine for an AR 15
1 magazine with 10 rounds of .223 bullets
Knives:
Metal bayonet
1 6-foot-10-inch wood-handled two-sided pole with a blade on one side and a spear on the other
1 Samurai sword with a 28-inch blade and sheath
1 Samurai sword with a 21-inch blade and a sheath
1 Samurai sword with a 13-inch blade and sheath
1 knife with a 12-inch blade and sheath
1 wooden-handle knife with a 7.5-inch blade and sheath
1 wooden-handle knife with a 10-inch blade
1 knife with a 5.5-inch blade and sheath
1 black-handled knife with a 7-inch blade and sheath
1 black rubber-handled knife with 9.5-inch blade and sheath
1 white and brown-handled knife with 5-inch blade and sheath
1 brown wood-handled knife with a 10.25-inch blade
1 Panther brown-handled folding knife with a 3.75 inch blade
1 small blue folding knife
Gear:
1 Volcanic .22 starter pistol wth 5 live rounds and 1 expended round
Leightning L3 ear protection
Peltor ear plugs
Simmons binoculars
Uncle Mike's Sidekick nylon holster
Box for vest accessories
Leather dual magazine holder
Black leather handgun holster
High Sierra fanny pack
Numerous paper targets
1 cardboard targets
1 Bushnell sport view rifle scope
Plastic bag of miscellaneous parts
Safariland holster paperwork
Glock handgun manual
MD-20 20-round shotgun magazine manual
MD Arms V-Plug guide
Bushmaster XM15 and C15 instruction manual
Savage Arms bolt-action rifle manual
Glock paperwork
Miscellaneous:
Adam Lanza's National Rifle Association certificate
Nancy Lanza's NRA certificate
Three photographs with images of what appear to be a deceased human covered with plastic and what appears to be blood
Holiday card with a check from Nancy Lanza to Adam Lanza for purchase of C183 firearm
1 digital print of a child and various fireaems
1 military-style uniform
Handwritten notes with addresses of local gun shops
Receipts and emails documenting firearm and ammunition supplies
Blue folder labeled “guns” with receipts and paperwork
Paperwork titled "Connecticut Gun Exchange Glock 20SF 10mm" dated 12-21-11
Sandy Hook report card for Adam Lanza
New York Times article on a 2008 shooting at Northern Illinois Unversity
Books:
“Look me in the Eye: My Life with Asperger’s;” “Born on a Blue Day: Inside the Mind of an Autistic Savant;” “NRA Guide to Basics of Pistol Shooting;” “Train Your Brain to Get Happy”
1 Seagate Barracuda 500gb hard drive, damaged
1 custom-built desktop computer, no hard drive
1 Microsoft Xbox with partially obliterated serial number
One cotton swab of blood-like substance
1 tan sheet with blood-like substance
1 tan fitted sheet with blood-like substance
1 striped towel with blood-like substance
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Somewhere there is a Marketing Director for a firearms or munitions company reading that list, not seeing his products represented, and doubling down on next seasons ad campaigns.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."