What would it take to form a Tyrannical Govt in the USA?

bootlegger10

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

what tyrannical government is everyone so afraid of??

Well, the government that takes away property rights. The government that taxes 80 % of our income. What happens when the debt is 25 -30 trillion, 70% of the population needs government entitlements, and the government can't make the payments? The riots in Europe will be nothing compared to what happens if the US government cannot reign in spending.

Does anyone expect the current government to slow down spending or decrease the debt? Not going to happen. The USA is spiraling to bankruptcy and hyper inflation. What the government does at that point is what we fear. Those that rely on government will probably like it, those that are used to supporting themselves will not.

gimmesometruth27

bootlegger10 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

what tyrannical government is everyone so afraid of??

Well, the government that takes away property rights. The government that taxes 80 % of our income. What happens when the debt is 25 -30 trillion, 70% of the population needs government entitlements, and the government can't make the payments? The riots in Europe will be nothing compared to what happens if the US government cannot reign in spending.

Does anyone expect the current government to slow down spending or decrease the debt? Not going to happen. The USA is spiraling to bankruptcy and hyper inflation. What the government does at that point is what we fear. Those that rely on government will probably like it, those that are used to supporting themselves will not.

you are not describing tyranny or even oppression.

bootlegger10

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

bootlegger10 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

what tyrannical government is everyone so afraid of??

Well, the government that takes away property rights. The government that taxes 80 % of our income. What happens when the debt is 25 -30 trillion, 70% of the population needs government entitlements, and the government can't make the payments? The riots in Europe will be nothing compared to what happens if the US government cannot reign in spending.

Does anyone expect the current government to slow down spending or decrease the debt? Not going to happen. The USA is spiraling to bankruptcy and hyper inflation. What the government does at that point is what we fear. Those that rely on government will probably like it, those that are used to supporting themselves will not.

you are not describing tyranny or even oppression.

Is government seizing property and taxing almost all income not tyranny? When we are left to rely only on government, I would say that is tyranny or just as bad.

I said in my post that some people will like it because they have always relied on government, so I am not surprised that people on this board do not fear it. They want government to control everything.

gimmesometruth27

bootlegger10 wrote:

Is government seizing property and taxing almost all income not tyranny? When we are left to rely only on government, I would say that is tyranny or just as bad.

I said in my post that some people will like it because they have always relied on government, so I am not surprised that people on this board do not fear it. They want government to control everything.

can we please be realistic here? you said "taxing almost all income". you know that this is not the case. not even close to the case. even if obama gets his way, this will not be the case and you know it.

bootlegger10

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

bootlegger10 wrote:

Is government seizing property and taxing almost all income not tyranny? When we are left to rely only on government, I would say that is tyranny or just as bad.

I said in my post that some people will like it because they have always relied on government, so I am not surprised that people on this board do not fear it. They want government to control everything.

can we please be realistic here? you said "taxing almost all income". you know that this is not the case. not even close to the case. even if obama gets his way, this will not be the case and you know it.

Well, the country has had marginal rates in the 90% bracket in the last century, so there is precedent.

In 2013, Some Californians will be paying a combined 55% fed and state income tax rate which does not include sales tax, payroll tax, gas tax, excise tax, property tax, etc...

We just had a president elected with his main campaign platform to raise taxes!

What happens when the 46% that receive benefits from the government turn into 60 or 70%. They voted to raise taxes on rich people when they hadn't even seen their benefits decrease. What happens whenthe government cuts benefits in ten years when the country is broke? They will be SCREAMING for higher taxes on the wealthy.

The country has seized property under eminent domain.

I think it is realistic that the country goes bankrupt, if not inevitable. So what the government does to combat that is anyone's guess.

The current tax increases will not bring the annual deficit to a surplus, so the debt will continue to increase. So when te current tax rates don't fix the debt, the voting public is now supporting of tax increases on the wealthy so why aren't they going to vote for higher and higher taxes?

Drowned Out

Premptive war, international terrorism, extra-judicial killings, rendition, torture, illegal weaponry, embargoes leading to the death of hundreds of thousands, corporations killing and buying their way to control of natural resources-food supplies-WATER...People and their environments destroyed while the arms industry profits from the resistance...Austerity eroding whats left of social safety nets, for-profit medicine, tiered healthcare, warrantless wiretapping, loss of habeas corpus, eminent domain, excessive taxation, the biggest per-capita prison population in the world, banks collecting tax payer handouts and a cut from every other racket, UN dominance via veto, the ace in the hole that is nuclear supremacy, revolving doors between lobby groups, think tanks, and government.....and a compliant/owned media ignoring it all.....


So....define tyranny.


tell me, 'constitutionalists', gun advocates, civil liberty warriors......what are you waiting for? None of those crimes are worth defending yourselves against? When is this armed rebellion going to happen? Ignoring the domestic issues is one thing - at this point, it's mostly inconvenience....But to suggest (as has been done here) that the US government will only become tyrannical after an economic collapse, after your property and belongings are infringed upon, is narcissism at it's finest. As long as the drones are coming for someone else, right? mr. santanna is correct. this shit manifests in ways we dread to see at home, and ignore or justify abroad.

Moonpig

pandora wrote:

Moonpig wrote:

Some of you here are real kooks, dishonest at best, terrified fanatics at worst. The real worrying thing is that the most paranoid on these boards, themselves own fire arms.

Horrifying

I remember dunkman once saying all you gun nuts head off to Idaho with your guns and have it out with each other. I laughed back then, I now think it might be one of the most reasonable plans put forth on here

Your negative statements are outrageous broad sweeping generalizations
towards people in another country. :?
Where do you come off with such a superior attitude and act like you personally
know anyone here? You don't.
Are the anti gun people also anti people who own guns, people?
This with great judgement. Not a bit of understanding just a broad brush of bias
that they will not even see nor understand the individual in us all.

I guess I could draw conclusion about foreigners too from just this.
But I won't, I've come to love many. Love any gun owners lately?

Oh in case you're coming back with me being another
kooky, dishonest, terrified, fanatical, paranoid gun owner, I am not...
do you listen to how you treat others? Isn't it written somewhere about casting stones?
You got a barrel of 'em,
look out upon leaving this world you will feel each and everyone you threw.
Ouch!

Lol, offence is yours to be taken. And hey I have no issues with people generalising where I am from, here let me help you out; drunks, micks, paddies, brawlers, terrorists, crooks, gobshites, (insert here any I have missed).

In light of the many many deaths that have taken place as a direct result of an individuals need to own a firearm, I don't really give a shit what any gun nut has to say, innocent children's safety trumps it all.

Now I would prefer not to converse with you on this or any matter going forward as I am more than used to your tactics on these boards.

grooveme

I'm fairly liberal in most of my views, but I believe that Thomas Jefferson had it right, as he had so many things right.

We are living in dangerous times in terms of personal freedom with the Patriot Act, which was renewed by Obama. But it has happened, many times and in many places. As for how a government becomes tyrannical, it doesn't happen overnight. Just ask those who were alive when Hitler and the Nazi's controlled much of Europe. I am sure the Jewish people and other groups targeted by Hitler never thought it could happen to them. If they had access to weapons, might things have gone differently? At least they could have fought back.

Also, just because the US has not in modern history ever been invaded by a foreign country doesn't mean it could never happen. They might still succeed, but not without significant losses, since much of the population could fight back (especially here in Texas).

Should there be reasonable restrictions/bans on assault weapons, kevlar, and restrictions on ammunition purchases? Probably! However, outside of an outright ban, which would be unconstitutional, guns are here to stay. And I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. As long as guns are here to stay, law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves.

The desire to increase "safety" is a good thing, but there is no way to prevent a single individual who has the desire to kill a lot of people from doing these things. The desire for a false sense of security should not make us willing to give up our constitutional freedoms.

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
― Benjamin Franklin

JonnyPistachio

grooveme wrote:

I'm fairly liberal in most of my views, but I believe that Thomas Jefferson had it right, as he had so many things right.

We are living in dangerous times in terms of personal freedom with the Patriot Act, which was renewed by Obama. But it has happened, many times and in many places. As for how a government becomes tyrannical, it doesn't happen overnight. Just ask those who were alive when Hitler and the Nazi's controlled much of Europe. I am sure the Jewish people and other groups targeted by Hitler never thought it could happen to them. If they had access to weapons, might things have gone differently? At least they could have fought back.

Also, just because the US has not in modern history ever been invaded by a foreign country doesn't mean it could never happen. They might still succeed, but not without significant losses, since much of the population could fight back (especially here in Texas).

Should there be reasonable restrictions/bans on assault weapons, kevlar, and restrictions on ammunition purchases? Probably! However, outside of an outright ban, which would be unconstitutional, guns are here to stay. And I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. As long as guns are here to stay, law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves.

The desire to increase "safety" is a good thing, but there is no way to prevent a single individual who has the desire to kill a lot of people from doing these things. The desire for a false sense of security should not make us willing to give up our constitutional freedoms.

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
― Benjamin Franklin

Good post Grooveme, thanks. I see those concerns. I also think it would be silly to do a universal ban on guns.
I see a few good responses to the original question in this thread, but none that get detailed enough for me to envision the point where, not just a few people, but the people of the USA have to take up their guns against the government. I really just cant imagine the actual evolution to the point that I'm holed up in my basement clutching my AR-15 and trying to get a hold of my neighbor to get some backup as a tank rolls through Clematis Street downtown West Palm Beach rounding us up for FEMA camps. Again, not trying to be an ass -- I see some insanity in Egypt, Syria, etc...but I just cant imagine it here.

blackredyellow

You know... if things get so bad that you feel that the government is becoming a tyranny, there are these silly little things that our founding fathers put into place to combat that (no, not the 2nd amendment)... they are called elections.

If a majority of the people believe that the government is becoming a tyrannical regime, they will vote out the tyrants. Until then, it stands to reason that the majority of them people don't feel that way yet, so you are outnumbered. You can say things like "these people are destroying America", but what you really mean, is that these people disagree with how the government should operate. That is the price of living in a representative democracy.

If you feel that the nation is going in a direction well outside of what you think is acceptable, you can either rally enough support to vote the current politicians out, or there are about 200 other countries in the world that you can look at moving too.

AndyVanSlyke

DESPIRATION

grooveme

JonnyPistachio wrote:

grooveme wrote:

I'm fairly liberal in most of my views, but I believe that Thomas Jefferson had it right, as he had so many things right.

We are living in dangerous times in terms of personal freedom with the Patriot Act, which was renewed by Obama. But it has happened, many times and in many places. As for how a government becomes tyrannical, it doesn't happen overnight. Just ask those who were alive when Hitler and the Nazi's controlled much of Europe. I am sure the Jewish people and other groups targeted by Hitler never thought it could happen to them. If they had access to weapons, might things have gone differently? At least they could have fought back.

Also, just because the US has not in modern history ever been invaded by a foreign country doesn't mean it could never happen. They might still succeed, but not without significant losses, since much of the population could fight back (especially here in Texas).

Should there be reasonable restrictions/bans on assault weapons, kevlar, and restrictions on ammunition purchases? Probably! However, outside of an outright ban, which would be unconstitutional, guns are here to stay. And I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. As long as guns are here to stay, law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves.

The desire to increase "safety" is a good thing, but there is no way to prevent a single individual who has the desire to kill a lot of people from doing these things. The desire for a false sense of security should not make us willing to give up our constitutional freedoms.

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
― Benjamin Franklin

Good post Grooveme, thanks. I see those concerns. I also think it would be silly to do a universal ban on guns.
I see a few good responses to the original question in this thread, but none that get detailed enough for me to envision the point where, not just a few people, but the people of the USA have to take up their guns against the government. I really just cant imagine the actual evolution to the point that I'm holed up in my basement clutching my AR-15 and trying to get a hold of my neighbor to get some backup as a tank rolls through Clematis Street downtown West Palm Beach rounding us up for FEMA camps. Again, not trying to be an ass -- I see some insanity in Egypt, Syria, etc...but I just cant imagine it here.

I have a hard time seeing it, too. I imagine it would start in a way that small groups were targeted, like the Japanese Americans in WWII, Jews in Germany, etc. But I think a major reason it will never happen is that people DO have the ability to defend themselves, which would be a serious deterrent to anyone trying to take over

MotoDC

blackredyellow wrote:

You know... if things get so bad that you feel that the government is becoming a tyranny, there are these silly little things that our founding fathers put into place to combat that (no, not the 2nd amendment)... they are called elections.

If a majority of the people believe that the government is becoming a tyrannical regime, they will vote out the tyrants. Until then, it stands to reason that the majority of them people don't feel that way yet, so you are outnumbered. You can say things like "these people are destroying America", but what you really mean, is that these people disagree with how the government should operate. That is the price of living in a representative democracy.

If you feel that the nation is going in a direction well outside of what you think is acceptable, you can either rally enough support to vote the current politicians out, or there are about 200 other countries in the world that you can look at moving too.

What despot allows or doesn't rig elections? That's like Rule #1 of being tyrannical.

edit: it was in my how-to-tyrannical handbook. on sale now from amazon @ $6.99.

MotoDC

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

bootlegger10 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

what tyrannical government is everyone so afraid of??

Well, the government that takes away property rights. The government that taxes 80 % of our income. What happens when the debt is 25 -30 trillion, 70% of the population needs government entitlements, and the government can't make the payments? The riots in Europe will be nothing compared to what happens if the US government cannot reign in spending.

Does anyone expect the current government to slow down spending or decrease the debt? Not going to happen. The USA is spiraling to bankruptcy and hyper inflation. What the government does at that point is what we fear. Those that rely on government will probably like it, those that are used to supporting themselves will not.

you are not describing tyranny or even oppression.

I think what he's mainly describing are the contributing factors to the creation of a tyrannical gov't. I.e., the above things happen (or something like them), the people "revolt" in some form, the gov't temporarily clamps down on controls to "restore order", the wrong person gets into a position of power, controls become permanent.

Anyhow, even if I'm wrong about what bootlegger meant, it is a bit interesting that what the right sees as oppression, the left sees as a desirable collectivist endstate. And we wonder why we all fight so much on AMT.

JonnyPistachio

I just see a tyrannical govt where we'd end up using arms to protect ourselves as nearly impossible because of the way our system is set up.

Just like the conspiracy theorists of 9/11 -- the ones who suggest Bush or the govt might have organized the whole thing...he'd need to have hundreds if not, thousands of people follow his plan, without leaking it, discussing it, or ever uttering a peep. quite an elaborate cover up.

How many hundreds of people in Washington and thousands in the military would have to go along with a plot where it became necessary for its citizens to stand up to them with their weapons?

Not saying it coudnt happen, but whats the likelihood?

mikepegg44

blackredyellow wrote:

You know... if things get so bad that you feel that the government is becoming a tyranny, there are these silly little things that our founding fathers put into place to combat that (no, not the 2nd amendment)... they are called elections.

If a majority of the people believe that the government is becoming a tyrannical regime, they will vote out the tyrants. Until then, it stands to reason that the majority of them people don't feel that way yet, so you are outnumbered. You can say things like "these people are destroying America", but what you really mean, is that these people disagree with how the government should operate. That is the price of living in a representative democracy.

If you feel that the nation is going in a direction well outside of what you think is acceptable, you can either rally enough support to vote the current politicians out, or there are about 200 other countries in the world that you can look at moving too.

This is true. All of what you say is certainly how we have avoided it so far in my opinion. But Germany elected Hitler.

I really do wish more people would get involved instead of making blanket statements about people destroying America. (full disclosure: I think all politicians are, in fact, destroying America )

The situations most people subscribe to are situations that happen under livable economic conditions. IF the economy fails, if the banks are not able to continue to support the fiat system as we know it we could fall into anarchy rather quickly.

I am not a doomsday prepper, It is hard for me to imagine a situation where we would have to defend our country against itself with war, but it is also hard for me to imagine jumping out of airplanes and landing unharmed without a parachute... Just because we can't imagine it, doesn't mean it isn't or can't be real however. Look at the LA riots, it doesn't take much to touch off a powder keg. Just needs the right spark.

That is certainly a BIG if, but as most people say, I would rather have something and never need it, than need it and not have it. It is the reason that I drive around Minnesota with cold weather camping gear in my trunk. I have never and probably won't need it...but when I do, I will be god damn glad I have it.

All of this focus on gun control, IMO wasting time herding cats and we will not address the real problems...like why would someone do what was done last Friday? We can't answer it, so we look to blame other people and other things, we call them enablers, we call them the reason when in fact we don't know what would have happened if this guy didn't have guns. Bath School disaster still counts as the deadliest school attack and it happened in the 1920's, with explosives.

blackredyellow

mikepegg44 wrote:

blackredyellow wrote:

You know... if things get so bad that you feel that the government is becoming a tyranny, there are these silly little things that our founding fathers put into place to combat that (no, not the 2nd amendment)... they are called elections.

If a majority of the people believe that the government is becoming a tyrannical regime, they will vote out the tyrants. Until then, it stands to reason that the majority of them people don't feel that way yet, so you are outnumbered. You can say things like "these people are destroying America", but what you really mean, is that these people disagree with how the government should operate. That is the price of living in a representative democracy.

If you feel that the nation is going in a direction well outside of what you think is acceptable, you can either rally enough support to vote the current politicians out, or there are about 200 other countries in the world that you can look at moving too.

This is true. All of what you say is certainly how we have avoided it so far in my opinion. But Germany elected Hitler.

I really do wish more people would get involved instead of making blanket statements about people destroying America. (full disclosure: I think all politicians are, in fact, destroying America )

The situations most people subscribe to are situations that happen under livable economic conditions. IF the economy fails, if the banks are not able to continue to support the fiat system as we know it we could fall into anarchy rather quickly.

I am not a doomsday prepper, It is hard for me to imagine a situation where we would have to defend our country against itself with war, but it is also hard for me to imagine jumping out of airplanes and landing unharmed without a parachute... Just because we can't imagine it, doesn't mean it isn't or can't be real however. Look at the LA riots, it doesn't take much to touch off a powder keg. Just needs the right spark.

That is certainly a BIG if, but as most people say, I would rather have something and never need it, than need it and not have it. It is the reason that I drive around Minnesota with cold weather camping gear in my trunk. I have never and probably won't need it...but when I do, I will be god damn glad I have it.

All of this focus on gun control, IMO wasting time herding cats and we will not address the real problems...like why would someone do what was done last Friday? We can't answer it, so we look to blame other people and other things, we call them enablers, we call them the reason when in fact we don't know what would have happened if this guy didn't have guns. Bath School disaster still counts as the deadliest school attack and it happened in the 1920's, with explosives.

Interesting... I've heard of that disaster but never knew anything about it. A quick look on wiki, and the guy used dynomite, but mostly pyrotol.
Also from wiki-
The substance was known for being used to commit the Bath School Disaster[4][5] in 1927 and distribution of pyrotol for farm use was discontinued in 1928.[6]

pandora

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

pandora wrote:

At least I try to be positive and avoid name calling... you too right?

no you don't.

you derail a majority of threads by making it about you, and you take it into a spiritual discussion all while passively aggressively taking jabs at people, but you make it ok by adding one of these

countless locked threads will show that.

this is why i only read your posts where you quote me or speak directly to me.

now back on topic.

what tyrannical government is everyone so afraid of??

are you bringing Kat to this one too?

you and others make it about me... I state my opinion


why are you not ignoring my posts? and only continue to call me out?

why gimme?

Cosmo

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I just see a tyrannical govt where we'd end up using arms to protect ourselves as nearly impossible because of the way our system is set up.

Just like the conspiracy theorists of 9/11 -- the ones who suggest Bush or the govt might have organized the whole thing...he'd need to have hundreds if not, thousands of people follow his plan, without leaking it, discussing it, or ever uttering a peep. quite an elaborate cover up.

How many hundreds of people in Washington and thousands in the military would have to go along with a plot where it became necessary for its citizens to stand up to them with their weapons?

Not saying it coudnt happen, but whats the likelihood?

...
That is my take on the thing.
The military is made up of... American Citizens. They are people... not robots. They have families and friends and do not kill fellow Americans to further a political party or corporate driven agenda. Yeah, they will kill in other lands against people whom have become demonized as evil... but, that is the American view, shared by many, many Americans. That is how I can see things like the internment of the Japanese during WWII and the current treatment of Muslims in America... because that is a perception of a segment of the American people.
Besides.. in order to have a Tyrannical Government... it would mean that all politicians would have to agree on it. When the fuck is THAT ever going to happen?

JonnyPistachio

pandora wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

pandora wrote:

At least I try to be positive and avoid name calling... you too right?

no you don't.

you derail a majority of threads by making it about you, and you take it into a spiritual discussion all while passively aggressively taking jabs at people, but you make it ok by adding one of these

countless locked threads will show that.

this is why i only read your posts where you quote me or speak directly to me.

now back on topic.

what tyrannical government is everyone so afraid of??

are you bringing Kat to this one too?

you and others make it about me... I state my opinion


why are you not ignoring my posts? and only continue to call me out?

why gimme?

ugh, can you two take this to PM please...that was pages ago...this thread is very educational, please dont get it locked, thanks!