I'm fairly liberal in most of my views, but I believe that Thomas Jefferson had it right, as he had so many things right.
We are living in dangerous times in terms of personal freedom with the Patriot Act, which was renewed by Obama. But it has happened, many times and in many places. As for how a government becomes tyrannical, it doesn't happen overnight. Just ask those who were alive when Hitler and the Nazi's controlled much of Europe. I am sure the Jewish people and other groups targeted by Hitler never thought it could happen to them. If they had access to weapons, might things have gone differently? At least they could have fought back.
Also, just because the US has not in modern history ever been invaded by a foreign country doesn't mean it could never happen. They might still succeed, but not without significant losses, since much of the population could fight back (especially here in Texas).
Should there be reasonable restrictions/bans on assault weapons, kevlar, and restrictions on ammunition purchases? Probably! However, outside of an outright ban, which would be unconstitutional, guns are here to stay. And I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. As long as guns are here to stay, law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves.
The desire to increase "safety" is a good thing, but there is no way to prevent a single individual who has the desire to kill a lot of people from doing these things. The desire for a false sense of security should not make us willing to give up our constitutional freedoms.
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
― Benjamin Franklin
Good post Grooveme, thanks. I see those concerns. I also think it would be silly to do a universal ban on guns.
I see a few good responses to the original question in this thread, but none that get detailed enough for me to envision the point where, not just a few people, but the people of the USA have to take up their guns against the government. I really just cant imagine the actual evolution to the point that I'm holed up in my basement clutching my AR-15 and trying to get a hold of my neighbor to get some backup as a tank rolls through Clematis Street downtown West Palm Beach rounding us up for FEMA camps. Again, not trying to be an ass -- I see some insanity in Egypt, Syria, etc...but I just cant imagine it here.
I have a hard time seeing it, too. I imagine it would start in a way that small groups were targeted, like the Japanese Americans in WWII, Jews in Germany, etc. But I think a major reason it will never happen is that people DO have the ability to defend themselves, which would be a serious deterrent to anyone trying to take over
You know... if things get so bad that you feel that the government is becoming a tyranny, there are these silly little things that our founding fathers put into place to combat that (no, not the 2nd amendment)... they are called elections.
If a majority of the people believe that the government is becoming a tyrannical regime, they will vote out the tyrants. Until then, it stands to reason that the majority of them people don't feel that way yet, so you are outnumbered. You can say things like "these people are destroying America", but what you really mean, is that these people disagree with how the government should operate. That is the price of living in a representative democracy.
If you feel that the nation is going in a direction well outside of what you think is acceptable, you can either rally enough support to vote the current politicians out, or there are about 200 other countries in the world that you can look at moving too.
What despot allows or doesn't rig elections? That's like Rule #1 of being tyrannical.
edit: it was in my how-to-tyrannical handbook. on sale now from amazon @ $6.99.
what tyrannical government is everyone so afraid of??
Well, the government that takes away property rights. The government that taxes 80 % of our income. What happens when the debt is 25 -30 trillion, 70% of the population needs government entitlements, and the government can't make the payments? The riots in Europe will be nothing compared to what happens if the US government cannot reign in spending.
Does anyone expect the current government to slow down spending or decrease the debt? Not going to happen. The USA is spiraling to bankruptcy and hyper inflation. What the government does at that point is what we fear. Those that rely on government will probably like it, those that are used to supporting themselves will not.
you are not describing tyranny or even oppression.
I think what he's mainly describing are the contributing factors to the creation of a tyrannical gov't. I.e., the above things happen (or something like them), the people "revolt" in some form, the gov't temporarily clamps down on controls to "restore order", the wrong person gets into a position of power, controls become permanent.
Anyhow, even if I'm wrong about what bootlegger meant, it is a bit interesting that what the right sees as oppression, the left sees as a desirable collectivist endstate. And we wonder why we all fight so much on AMT.
I just see a tyrannical govt where we'd end up using arms to protect ourselves as nearly impossible because of the way our system is set up.
Just like the conspiracy theorists of 9/11 -- the ones who suggest Bush or the govt might have organized the whole thing...he'd need to have hundreds if not, thousands of people follow his plan, without leaking it, discussing it, or ever uttering a peep. quite an elaborate cover up.
How many hundreds of people in Washington and thousands in the military would have to go along with a plot where it became necessary for its citizens to stand up to them with their weapons?
Not saying it coudnt happen, but whats the likelihood?
You know... if things get so bad that you feel that the government is becoming a tyranny, there are these silly little things that our founding fathers put into place to combat that (no, not the 2nd amendment)... they are called elections.
If a majority of the people believe that the government is becoming a tyrannical regime, they will vote out the tyrants. Until then, it stands to reason that the majority of them people don't feel that way yet, so you are outnumbered. You can say things like "these people are destroying America", but what you really mean, is that these people disagree with how the government should operate. That is the price of living in a representative democracy.
If you feel that the nation is going in a direction well outside of what you think is acceptable, you can either rally enough support to vote the current politicians out, or there are about 200 other countries in the world that you can look at moving too.
This is true. All of what you say is certainly how we have avoided it so far in my opinion. But Germany elected Hitler.
I really do wish more people would get involved instead of making blanket statements about people destroying America. (full disclosure: I think all politicians are, in fact, destroying America )
The situations most people subscribe to are situations that happen under livable economic conditions. IF the economy fails, if the banks are not able to continue to support the fiat system as we know it we could fall into anarchy rather quickly.
I am not a doomsday prepper, It is hard for me to imagine a situation where we would have to defend our country against itself with war, but it is also hard for me to imagine jumping out of airplanes and landing unharmed without a parachute... Just because we can't imagine it, doesn't mean it isn't or can't be real however. Look at the LA riots, it doesn't take much to touch off a powder keg. Just needs the right spark.
That is certainly a BIG if, but as most people say, I would rather have something and never need it, than need it and not have it. It is the reason that I drive around Minnesota with cold weather camping gear in my trunk. I have never and probably won't need it...but when I do, I will be god damn glad I have it.
All of this focus on gun control, IMO wasting time herding cats and we will not address the real problems...like why would someone do what was done last Friday? We can't answer it, so we look to blame other people and other things, we call them enablers, we call them the reason when in fact we don't know what would have happened if this guy didn't have guns. Bath School disaster still counts as the deadliest school attack and it happened in the 1920's, with explosives.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
You know... if things get so bad that you feel that the government is becoming a tyranny, there are these silly little things that our founding fathers put into place to combat that (no, not the 2nd amendment)... they are called elections.
If a majority of the people believe that the government is becoming a tyrannical regime, they will vote out the tyrants. Until then, it stands to reason that the majority of them people don't feel that way yet, so you are outnumbered. You can say things like "these people are destroying America", but what you really mean, is that these people disagree with how the government should operate. That is the price of living in a representative democracy.
If you feel that the nation is going in a direction well outside of what you think is acceptable, you can either rally enough support to vote the current politicians out, or there are about 200 other countries in the world that you can look at moving too.
This is true. All of what you say is certainly how we have avoided it so far in my opinion. But Germany elected Hitler.
I really do wish more people would get involved instead of making blanket statements about people destroying America. (full disclosure: I think all politicians are, in fact, destroying America )
The situations most people subscribe to are situations that happen under livable economic conditions. IF the economy fails, if the banks are not able to continue to support the fiat system as we know it we could fall into anarchy rather quickly.
I am not a doomsday prepper, It is hard for me to imagine a situation where we would have to defend our country against itself with war, but it is also hard for me to imagine jumping out of airplanes and landing unharmed without a parachute... Just because we can't imagine it, doesn't mean it isn't or can't be real however. Look at the LA riots, it doesn't take much to touch off a powder keg. Just needs the right spark.
That is certainly a BIG if, but as most people say, I would rather have something and never need it, than need it and not have it. It is the reason that I drive around Minnesota with cold weather camping gear in my trunk. I have never and probably won't need it...but when I do, I will be god damn glad I have it.
All of this focus on gun control, IMO wasting time herding cats and we will not address the real problems...like why would someone do what was done last Friday? We can't answer it, so we look to blame other people and other things, we call them enablers, we call them the reason when in fact we don't know what would have happened if this guy didn't have guns. Bath School disaster still counts as the deadliest school attack and it happened in the 1920's, with explosives.
Interesting... I've heard of that disaster but never knew anything about it. A quick look on wiki, and the guy used dynomite, but mostly pyrotol.
Also from wiki-
The substance was known for being used to commit the Bath School Disaster[4][5] in 1927 and distribution of pyrotol for farm use was discontinued in 1928.[6]
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
At least I try to be positive and avoid name calling... you too right?
no you don't.
you derail a majority of threads by making it about you, and you take it into a spiritual discussion all while passively aggressively taking jabs at people, but you make it ok by adding one of these
countless locked threads will show that.
this is why i only read your posts where you quote me or speak directly to me.
now back on topic.
what tyrannical government is everyone so afraid of??
are you bringing Kat to this one too?
you and others make it about me... I state my opinion
why are you not ignoring my posts? and only continue to call me out?
I just see a tyrannical govt where we'd end up using arms to protect ourselves as nearly impossible because of the way our system is set up.
Just like the conspiracy theorists of 9/11 -- the ones who suggest Bush or the govt might have organized the whole thing...he'd need to have hundreds if not, thousands of people follow his plan, without leaking it, discussing it, or ever uttering a peep. quite an elaborate cover up.
How many hundreds of people in Washington and thousands in the military would have to go along with a plot where it became necessary for its citizens to stand up to them with their weapons?
Not saying it coudnt happen, but whats the likelihood?
...
That is my take on the thing.
The military is made up of... American Citizens. They are people... not robots. They have families and friends and do not kill fellow Americans to further a political party or corporate driven agenda. Yeah, they will kill in other lands against people whom have become demonized as evil... but, that is the American view, shared by many, many Americans. That is how I can see things like the internment of the Japanese during WWII and the current treatment of Muslims in America... because that is a perception of a segment of the American people.
Besides.. in order to have a Tyrannical Government... it would mean that all politicians would have to agree on it. When the fuck is THAT ever going to happen?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
At least I try to be positive and avoid name calling... you too right?
no you don't.
you derail a majority of threads by making it about you, and you take it into a spiritual discussion all while passively aggressively taking jabs at people, but you make it ok by adding one of these
countless locked threads will show that.
this is why i only read your posts where you quote me or speak directly to me.
now back on topic.
what tyrannical government is everyone so afraid of??
are you bringing Kat to this one too?
you and others make it about me... I state my opinion
why are you not ignoring my posts? and only continue to call me out?
why gimme?
ugh, can you two take this to PM please...that was pages ago...this thread is very educational, please dont get it locked, thanks!
That is my take on the thing.
The military is made up of... American Citizens. They are people... not robots. They have families and friends and do not kill fellow Americans to further a political party or corporate driven agenda. Yeah, they will kill in other lands against people whom have become demonized as evil... but, that is the American view, shared by many, many Americans. .
I've had a similar thought and hope you're right...but have you seen (the first half of) Full Metal Jacket? What is your major malfunction, Private Pyle?!
haha?
Besides.. in order to have a Tyrannical Government... it would mean that all politicians would have to agree on it. When the fuck is THAT ever going to happen?
Not so sure. Despots don't have elections and despots don't need consensus (i.e., the agreement of other politicians). Hell, they don't even need literal control of the military at first. They just need the strong perception thereof.
That is how I can see things like the internment of the Japanese during WWII and the current treatment of Muslims in America... because that is a perception of a segment of the American people
How exactly are Muslims "treated in America"? Outside of perhaps the mosque-in-downtown-Manhattan thing. And didn't that get approved anyhow?
The situations most people subscribe to are situations that happen under livable economic conditions. IF the economy fails, if the banks are not able to continue to support the fiat system as we know it we could fall into anarchy rather quickly.
That is certainly a BIG if, but as most people say, I would rather have something and never need it, than need it and not have it. It is the reason that I drive around Minnesota with cold weather camping gear in my trunk. I have never and probably won't need it...but when I do, I will be god damn glad I have it.
Sorry I split up your post here, but I wanted to focus in on two things. So there have been a few mentions of banks and economy breakdown. This, I dont know enough about...where's Inlet? Im sure there's more info out there on the results of this happening, I'll have to do some searching to see how quickly yhtat could happen and the results.
I do like the saying "have something and never need it, than need it and not have it" in most circumstances...but just me personally, I'll try to find another way to get by rather than a gun. But maybe the campgear in the trunk would be a good escape. And gold as gimme said..
I just see a tyrannical govt where we'd end up using arms to protect ourselves as nearly impossible because of the way our system is set up.
Just like the conspiracy theorists of 9/11 -- the ones who suggest Bush or the govt might have organized the whole thing...he'd need to have hundreds if not, thousands of people follow his plan, without leaking it, discussing it, or ever uttering a peep. quite an elaborate cover up.
How many hundreds of people in Washington and thousands in the military would have to go along with a plot where it became necessary for its citizens to stand up to them with their weapons?
Not saying it coudnt happen, but whats the likelihood?
...
That is my take on the thing.
The military is made up of... American Citizens. They are people... not robots. They have families and friends and do not kill fellow Americans to further a political party or corporate driven agenda. Yeah, they will kill in other lands against people whom have become demonized as evil... but, that is the American view, shared by many, many Americans. That is how I can see things like the internment of the Japanese during WWII and the current treatment of Muslims in America... because that is a perception of a segment of the American people.
Besides.. in order to have a Tyrannical Government... it would mean that all politicians would have to agree on it. When the fuck is THAT ever going to happen?
Agreed, and I thought at first you were joking on your last 2 lines, but there might be some truth in the fact that politicians will never agree on anything! ha!
How exactly are Muslims "treated in America"? Outside of perhaps the mosque-in-downtown-Manhattan thing. And didn't that get approved anyhow?
...
Clue: Read just about anything posted by Aerial regarding Muslims. The source is typically FOX News or one of its affiliates related. Keep in mind, 'FOX News is America's Most Watched Source for News'.
If it were up to a portion of Americans... the Muslims (and Muslimish loking people) would be rounded up and shipped back to where they came from... which those idiot Americans would be surprized to hear... cities across America.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Ha, been wondering that myself. Also, where's Godfather? And where's Prince of Dorkness? I feel like I missed some big dramatic thread where everbody got banned.
How exactly are Muslims "treated in America"? Outside of perhaps the mosque-in-downtown-Manhattan thing. And didn't that get approved anyhow?
...
Clue: Read just about anything posted by Aerial regarding Muslims. The source is typically FOX News or one of its affiliates related. Keep in mind, 'FOX News is America's Most Watched Source for News'.
If it were up to a portion of Americans... the Muslims (and Muslimish loking people) would be rounded up and shipped back to where they came from... which those idiot Americans would be surprized to hear... cities across America.
That's a pretty big logical leap you're making to get from there to 'Muslims aren't treated well in America'. At best, you could say that SOME portion of Americans harbor a bias against Muslims. How many and to what extent they'd actually act on that bias is far from clear.
But I seem to find myself again arguing a point that is way tangential to the thread. I'll stop.
Comments
I have a hard time seeing it, too. I imagine it would start in a way that small groups were targeted, like the Japanese Americans in WWII, Jews in Germany, etc. But I think a major reason it will never happen is that people DO have the ability to defend themselves, which would be a serious deterrent to anyone trying to take over
edit: it was in my how-to-tyrannical handbook. on sale now from amazon @ $6.99.
Anyhow, even if I'm wrong about what bootlegger meant, it is a bit interesting that what the right sees as oppression, the left sees as a desirable collectivist endstate. And we wonder why we all fight so much on AMT.
Just like the conspiracy theorists of 9/11 -- the ones who suggest Bush or the govt might have organized the whole thing...he'd need to have hundreds if not, thousands of people follow his plan, without leaking it, discussing it, or ever uttering a peep. quite an elaborate cover up.
How many hundreds of people in Washington and thousands in the military would have to go along with a plot where it became necessary for its citizens to stand up to them with their weapons?
Not saying it coudnt happen, but whats the likelihood?
This is true. All of what you say is certainly how we have avoided it so far in my opinion. But Germany elected Hitler.
I really do wish more people would get involved instead of making blanket statements about people destroying America. (full disclosure: I think all politicians are, in fact, destroying America
The situations most people subscribe to are situations that happen under livable economic conditions. IF the economy fails, if the banks are not able to continue to support the fiat system as we know it we could fall into anarchy rather quickly.
I am not a doomsday prepper, It is hard for me to imagine a situation where we would have to defend our country against itself with war, but it is also hard for me to imagine jumping out of airplanes and landing unharmed without a parachute... Just because we can't imagine it, doesn't mean it isn't or can't be real however. Look at the LA riots, it doesn't take much to touch off a powder keg. Just needs the right spark.
That is certainly a BIG if, but as most people say, I would rather have something and never need it, than need it and not have it. It is the reason that I drive around Minnesota with cold weather camping gear in my trunk. I have never and probably won't need it...but when I do, I will be god damn glad I have it.
All of this focus on gun control, IMO wasting time herding cats and we will not address the real problems...like why would someone do what was done last Friday? We can't answer it, so we look to blame other people and other things, we call them enablers, we call them the reason when in fact we don't know what would have happened if this guy didn't have guns. Bath School disaster still counts as the deadliest school attack and it happened in the 1920's, with explosives.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Interesting... I've heard of that disaster but never knew anything about it. A quick look on wiki, and the guy used dynomite, but mostly pyrotol.
Also from wiki-
The substance was known for being used to commit the Bath School Disaster[4][5] in 1927 and distribution of pyrotol for farm use was discontinued in 1928.[6]
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
you and others make it about me... I state my opinion
why are you not ignoring my posts? and only continue to call me out?
why gimme?
That is my take on the thing.
The military is made up of... American Citizens. They are people... not robots. They have families and friends and do not kill fellow Americans to further a political party or corporate driven agenda. Yeah, they will kill in other lands against people whom have become demonized as evil... but, that is the American view, shared by many, many Americans. That is how I can see things like the internment of the Japanese during WWII and the current treatment of Muslims in America... because that is a perception of a segment of the American people.
Besides.. in order to have a Tyrannical Government... it would mean that all politicians would have to agree on it. When the fuck is THAT ever going to happen?
Hail, Hail!!!
ugh, can you two take this to PM please...that was pages ago...this thread is very educational, please dont get it locked, thanks!
We're this close to making both of your accounts read-only for the holidays.........
haha?
Not so sure. Despots don't have elections and despots don't need consensus (i.e., the agreement of other politicians). Hell, they don't even need literal control of the military at first. They just need the strong perception thereof.
How exactly are Muslims "treated in America"? Outside of perhaps the mosque-in-downtown-Manhattan thing. And didn't that get approved anyhow?
Sorry I split up your post here, but I wanted to focus in on two things. So there have been a few mentions of banks and economy breakdown. This, I dont know enough about...where's Inlet? Im sure there's more info out there on the results of this happening, I'll have to do some searching to see how quickly yhtat could happen and the results.
I do like the saying "have something and never need it, than need it and not have it" in most circumstances...but just me personally, I'll try to find another way to get by rather than a gun. But maybe the campgear in the trunk would be a good escape. And gold as gimme said..
Agreed, and I thought at first you were joking on your last 2 lines, but there might be some truth in the fact that politicians will never agree on anything! ha!
Clue: Read just about anything posted by Aerial regarding Muslims. The source is typically FOX News or one of its affiliates related. Keep in mind, 'FOX News is America's Most Watched Source for News'.
If it were up to a portion of Americans... the Muslims (and Muslimish loking people) would be rounded up and shipped back to where they came from... which those idiot Americans would be surprized to hear... cities across America.
Hail, Hail!!!
But I seem to find myself again arguing a point that is way tangential to the thread. I'll stop.