Israel/Gaza

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Comments

  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    Oh, I agree that things would be much better. I just think that anyone who thinks that there aren't people in Palestinian society who would pursue violence against Israel even after an end to the occupation are seriously misjudging the degree of hatred for Israel that exists among the Palestinians. I agree that this element would likely be a minority, and that if their actions retarded the progress of a tangible peace accord that they would likely become ever less popular. That said, in today's world a small number of people can cause a lot of damage, and if for whatever reason the Palestinian government isn't able to adequately control this element there will come a point at which Israel will feel compelled to take matters into its own hands. The occupation should absolutely end; I'm just pointing out that that won't be a panecea that will instantly bring peace.

    do you not think that anger is justified? ... in any case - the situation now is that there are conditions clearly set for peace ... and that israel is in primary violation of those conditions ... which ultimately brings me back to my two main points:

    1. hamas is clearly what the current israeli regime want
    2. only israelis can make peace ... there is absolutely nothing the palestinians can do right now to create conditions for peace ...
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    polaris_x wrote:
    .... ... there is absolutely nothing the palestinians can do right now to create conditions for peace ...


    and there never was. the israeli govt have the best propaganda machine since the nazis.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    563760_10151364671734515_1880051184_n.jpg
  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    i don;t really see either side as right or either side as wrong

    http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0040.pdf

    this is a good paper outlining the israel lobby

    and a talk given by the author
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvVXrfMo3Uk

    and if you have a couple of hours
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTWLEWSB3f4
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Merry Christmas!


    (The "Mavi Marmara terror attack" = In case anyone needed any insight into how Zionists think).


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/de ... ection-ban

    Arab-Israeli MP may face election ban

    Election panel to consider motions against Haneen Zoabi, who took part in Gaza flotilla in 2010, and two Arab parties


    Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
    guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 18 December 2012



    An Arab member of the Israeli parliament is facing an attempt to disqualify her from standing in next month's general election, a move she has likened to fascism.

    The state elections committee will hear a motion against Haneen Zoabi's candidacy on Wednesday. She is accused of undermining the state of Israel and "inciting against its government, its institutions" and the military, according to a written submission to the committee.

    Ofir Akunis, an MP with the ruling rightwing Likud party, said her actions amounted to a denial of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, making her liable for disqualification from running from Israel's parliament, the Knesset.

    Zoabi, one of 11 MPs representing Arab parties, has faced a vigorous campaign against her since she took part in a flotilla of ships attempting to breach Israel's blockade of Gaza in May 2010. Nine Turkish activists were killed when Israeli commandos stormed the lead ship, the Mavi Marmara, on which Zoabi was a passenger.

    "I believe that Zoabi will be disqualified because it is the most correct, just and moral thing," Akunis told the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth. "She has no place in the Knesset. She took part in the Mavi Marmara terror attack, and according to [the law] anyone who participates in armed struggle against Israel or supports it cannot run for the Knesset."

    Another Likud MP, Danny Danon, submitted to the election committee a petition signed by 11,000 people calling for Zoabi to be banned from the election. Zoabi "belongs in prison and not in parliament", he told the Jerusalem Post. "There's no difference between the words and actions of an Islamic Jihad member from Khan Yunis [in Gaza] and those of Zoabi."

    According to an opinion poll published last week, almost 70% of Israelis say Zoabi should be barred from standing for parliament, with 13% saying her candidacy should be allowed.

    In response to the move to disqualify her, Zoabi said: "This is the time to choose between fascism and democracy." Only "dark regimes" could be proud of disqualifying candidates, she added.

    "The rightwing has become accustomed to setting itself above the law, above human rights and above the rules of democracy," Zoabi said. Its goal, she said, was to "completely eliminate freedom of speech, political pluralism and the deviation from a narrow ideological consensus, which views an Arab who fights for his rights and his place as a great enemy."

    The central election committee will also hear motions to ban two Arab parties, Balad and Ra'am-Ta'al, from fielding candidates in the election on 22 January. The motions are based on article 7A of Israel's basic law covering the Knesset, which says a party or an individual candidate can be disqualified if their actions deny Israel to be a Jewish and democratic state, incite racism, or support armed struggle, an enemy state or a terrorist organisation.


    The elections committee reflects the political composition of the Knesset, thus giving it a rightwing majority. However, candidates and parties may appeal to the supreme court against its decisions. In 2003, 2006 and 2009 the supreme court overturned the committee's disqualification of Arab parties.

    But according to Adalah, a legal centre for Arab minority rights in Israel, which is representing Zoabi and the two parties, the composition of the supreme court is more conservative than in the past.

    It says the motions should be seen in the context of the past four years of Binyamin Netanyahu's government, in which 20 laws that "target and discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel" have been passed.

    "This process should be understood as a direct continuation of escalating measures taken against Israel's Arab-Palestinian citizens and their elected representatives," said Hassan Jabareen, of Adalah. "It is not acceptable for the majority to exclude minority representatives from the parliamentary process; there is no legal basis to do so and this step risks the gradual disenfranchisement of 20% of Israel's population."


    In its response to the motions, which it described as racist, Adalah said there was insufficient evidence or a legal basis for disqualification. Israel's attorney-general has also said there is insufficient evidence to disqualify Zoabi or the two Arab parties.

    Arab citizens make up around one in five of Israel's population, a figure not reflected in parliamentary representation. According to a recent opinion poll, 82% of Israeli Arabs have little or no faith in the government, and half say they will not vote in next month's election. Two-thirds say they lack confidence in Arab parties.

    Zoabi's parliamentary privileges were revoked after she participated in the Gaza flotilla a year after being elected in 2009. An attempt to bring criminal charges against her failed. She was assigned special protection after a number of death threats were made against her.

    Last month, she spoke out against the Israeli offensive on Gaza, saying Israel was breaking international law and "no military force can crush the people's survival instinct".
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Byrnzie wrote:
    563760_10151364671734515_1880051184_n.jpg
    i just saw this.

    i can't articulate how much it pisses me off to think that many zionists support what is depicted in that cartoon.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    what a joke.

    let the people decide...

    Arab candidate banned from Israeli elections

    http://news.yahoo.com/arab-candidate-ba ... 37536.html

    JERUSALEM (AP) — An Israeli elections committee has voted to disqualify an Arab lawmaker from running in parliamentary elections on Jan. 22.

    Giora Pordes, spokesman of the elections committee, said lawmaker Hanin Zoabi was banned, but the committee decided to allow her party and another Arab party to run.

    The decision to ban Zoabi could be overturned by the Supreme Court. In the past, the court has overturned similar attempts to ban Arab candidates and parties.

    Zoabi is a contentious figure in Israeli politics, siding stridently with the Palestinians in their conflict with Israel.

    She participated in a pro-Palestinian flotilla that tried to break through Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip in 2010. Activists attacked Israeli soldiers who boarded the ship, and nine activists were killed.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    On a positive note, it appears the Israelis supreme court overturned the election committee's decision - Hanin Zoabi can run for Knesset.

    On a 'more typical bullshit' note: Hundreds were forced from their homes in the Jordan valley last week for military operations....


    A precarious existence in the Jordan Valley
    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=552669

    AL-JIFTLIK (IRIN) -- For those who recently watched images of the Israeli bombardment in Gaza, the wide open hills of the Jordan Valley in the West Bank appear as a stark contrast.

    Flocks of sheep accompanied by their herders cross the hillsides, home to some of the most fertile land in all of the occupied Palestinian territory and unrivaled even in Israel.

    And yet despite the abundant land and resources, Palestinians living in the Valley are some of the poorest in the Palestinian territory, lacking even the most basic infrastructure.

    The Jordan Valley is marked by a patchwork of zones in which Palestinians are allowed to live, which leave little room for manoeuvre.

    "These restrictions have removed their ability to be self-sustaining. They are in an artificial humanitarian crisis; they have the capacity, the training, the education, but because of man-made restrictions, they are made vulnerable," Ramesh Rajasingham, head of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in oPt, told IRIN.

    For a start, much of the Valley is officially out of bounds to Palestinians - 44 percent is marked as closed military zones (including so-called firing zones) and nature reserves. An additional 50 percent is controlled by Israeli settlements, regarded as illegal by many in the international community. That leaves only 6 percent for Palestinians, according to figures from Save the Children.

    A second layer of restrictions reinforces this exclusion: Under the Oslo peace accords, 90 percent of the Valley was labeled "Area C". In this area of the West Bank, Israel retains full civil and military control, enabling it to restrict Palestinian movement, construction and development projects.

    "A few years ago, communities in Area C were self-sustaining; they could trade, sell produce, graze their animals, and move around freely," said OCHA's Rajasingham.

    Many of the Bedouin farming communities in these zones predate the Oslo accords and the firing zones (set up in the 1960s), but they now find themselves increasingly excluded or living a precarious existence.

    Most Palestinians there live without sufficient access to clean water, while Israeli settlements nearby have plentiful water supplies subsidized by the Israeli government.

    Within the firing zones, more than 90 percent of the Palestinian communities are water scarce with access to less than 60 liters per person per day.

    Food security in Area C is 24-34 percent for the shepherds, many of whom live in the firing zones.

    Military operations

    Overlooking the Valley are multiple Israeli military bases.

    Army vehicles speed down the roads during the day, artillery fire echoes from nearby, while at night military helicopters circle overhead.

    Seven weeks ago during the eight-day bombardment in Gaza, tanks, army jeeps and military camps were in the Valley as part of a training exercise carried out by the Israeli army, which their spokesperson's unit told IRIN was necessary to "prepare for various security scenarios".

    They added that it was important for "intruders" to "be kept clear from the military areas. for the security of both soldiers and Palestinian civilians."

    "The army came and said 'if you don't leave this area for the training exercise, we will demolish your houses. You must go to Tayasir, which is far away from here," Eid Ahmad Musa al-Fakir, a 68-year-old herder from the village of Hamamat Al-Maleh, told IRIN.

    "It was hard for us to go there with our sheep and our belongings and it's now winter, we don't have so much money and the animals are breeding. So we moved just a short distance away to the roadside."

    In preparation for the military exercise, the Israeli army issued more than 40 eviction orders to Palestinian families in the northern Jordan Valley living in or near Firing Zone areas.

    A number of Palestinians returned to their homes, but Al-Fakir and his family are unsure of when they will go back: "The army told us that even if the training exercise is over, we should not come back. Here by the roadside it's hard for our animals to graze, but we are afraid to return and find that we have to move again," he said.

    Firing zones

    This displacement and others like it this year have left Palestinian families in the area reporting a "general environment of fear and uncertainty, particularly among children".

    Israel's Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories did not respond to interview requests for specifics about the recent military exercise.

    Some 5,000 Palestinians, mostly Bedouin and herding communities, live in designated firing zones across the West Bank, according to OCHA

    Palestinians living in firing zones are among the most vulnerable populations in the West Bank with little access to services such as health care and education, and no basic utilities like electricity and sanitation.

    Access to firing zones is prohibited to Palestinians without permission from the Israeli authorities and cover about 18 percent of the land in the West Bank.


    Residents in these areas are frequently issued with eviction and demolition orders even though "many residents report that there is little or no military training in areas where they reside," according to an OCHA report.

    Where Palestinians have tried to construct, they face opposition from the Israeli government.

    Permit regime

    The Israeli permit regime, which some analysts say contravenes international law, makes daily living in Area C even more difficult for Palestinians as they are required to apply for permits to construct structures like water cisterns, latrines and houses.

    Permits are rarely granted, forcing Palestinians to forego them and risk demolition.

    All these restrictions and layers of regulation make daily life in the Jordan Valley precarious.

    According to the Ma'an Development Centre, an independent Palestinian development and training institution, "Israel has carried out more demolitions in the Jordan Valley than anywhere else."

    OCHA's factsheet on Jordan Valley settlements says that in 2011 alone there were 200 demolitions of Palestinian structures, including homes, resulting in the displacement of 430 people.


    In some instances, a building is demolished by the Israelis, rebuilt by Palestinians and then demolished again.

    Israeli settlers on the other hand are given financial assistance by the Israeli government to encourage settlement expansion.

    The settlement of Tomer, south of the Palestinian village of Fasayil, specializes in the production of dates.

    According to the Ma'an Development Centre, the settlement has become "a flourishing community with a modern infrastructure, prosperous industries, and reliable social services" as a result of "tax breaks, grants and other benefits."

    By contrast, "[Palestinian] homes in Fasayil are made of tin, plastic and mud" and the community has faced four waves of demolitions since January 2011.

    There are 10 Israeli settler communities partially or completely in the firing zones of the West Bank, though they almost never face threats of demolition.

    A strategy of control?

    Many in the Jordan Valley see military exercises in firing zones as well as repeated house demolitions as an Israeli strategy to empty the land of Palestinians and confiscate it for further settlement expansion and agricultural production.

    "This is a mountainous area, with [Israeli] people scattered across the place. Their purpose is to make us all leave so that they can take it for themselves," Fatima Abid Aouda Soraiya Fakir, one of the women displaced from the village of Al-Maitah, told IRIN. "They are afraid that we will become established here if we stay, like the village of al-Aqaba which now has schools and clinics."

    Al-Fakir, the Palestinian from Hamamat Al-Maleh, agrees. "The army wants everyone in this area to move," he said. "It's happening slowly and over time, but they definitely do not want us here."

    But the spokesperson's unit for the IDF said all structures erected in closed military zones were illegal.

    Chris Whitman from the Ma'an Development Centre agrees that the recent exercise is a method for Israel to consolidate its power in the valley.

    "To have people who are outside the system, herding and moving around is [taken as] a form of defiance," he told IRIN.

    "So Israel makes sure these people know the boundaries; makes sure they are not connected to water or electricity; ruins the area with artillery so that the animals cannot graze; and gives them the idea that their existence is temporary."

    The IDF declined to respond to these allegations.

    Whitman added that Palestinians in the Jordan Valley have become increasingly impoverished over the past 20 years.

    Those that have family elsewhere, or can afford to, may eventually choose to leave for larger towns or cities. But many rely on their animals for survival and cannot move elsewhere.

    The Palestinians in Al-Maitah say that despite their recent experience, they are staying put.

    "We are here now and we just want the Israelis to leave us alone," Ahmad Eid Soraiya Fakir from Al-Maitah told IRIN. "We are willing to live in any condition if we have to, but we will not leave."
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    On a positive note, it appears the Israelis supreme court overturned the election committee's decision - Hanin Zoabi can run for Knesset.

    On a 'more typical bullshit' note: Hundreds were forced from their homes in the Jordan valley last week for military operations....


    A precarious existence in the Jordan Valley
    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=552669

    AL-JIFTLIK (IRIN) -- For those who recently watched images of the Israeli bombardment in Gaza, the wide open hills of the Jordan Valley in the West Bank appear as a stark contrast.

    Flocks of sheep accompanied by their herders cross the hillsides, home to some of the most fertile land in all of the occupied Palestinian territory and unrivaled even in Israel.

    And yet despite the abundant land and resources, Palestinians living in the Valley are some of the poorest in the Palestinian territory, lacking even the most basic infrastructure.

    The Jordan Valley is marked by a patchwork of zones in which Palestinians are allowed to live, which leave little room for manoeuvre.

    "These restrictions have removed their ability to be self-sustaining. They are in an artificial humanitarian crisis; they have the capacity, the training, the education, but because of man-made restrictions, they are made vulnerable," Ramesh Rajasingham, head of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in oPt, told IRIN.

    For a start, much of the Valley is officially out of bounds to Palestinians - 44 percent is marked as closed military zones (including so-called firing zones) and nature reserves. An additional 50 percent is controlled by Israeli settlements, regarded as illegal by many in the international community. That leaves only 6 percent for Palestinians, according to figures from Save the Children.

    A second layer of restrictions reinforces this exclusion: Under the Oslo peace accords, 90 percent of the Valley was labeled "Area C". In this area of the West Bank, Israel retains full civil and military control, enabling it to restrict Palestinian movement, construction and development projects.

    "A few years ago, communities in Area C were self-sustaining; they could trade, sell produce, graze their animals, and move around freely," said OCHA's Rajasingham.

    Many of the Bedouin farming communities in these zones predate the Oslo accords and the firing zones (set up in the 1960s), but they now find themselves increasingly excluded or living a precarious existence.

    Most Palestinians there live without sufficient access to clean water, while Israeli settlements nearby have plentiful water supplies subsidized by the Israeli government.

    Within the firing zones, more than 90 percent of the Palestinian communities are water scarce with access to less than 60 liters per person per day.

    Food security in Area C is 24-34 percent for the shepherds, many of whom live in the firing zones.

    Military operations

    Overlooking the Valley are multiple Israeli military bases.

    Army vehicles speed down the roads during the day, artillery fire echoes from nearby, while at night military helicopters circle overhead.

    Seven weeks ago during the eight-day bombardment in Gaza, tanks, army jeeps and military camps were in the Valley as part of a training exercise carried out by the Israeli army, which their spokesperson's unit told IRIN was necessary to "prepare for various security scenarios".

    They added that it was important for "intruders" to "be kept clear from the military areas. for the security of both soldiers and Palestinian civilians."

    "The army came and said 'if you don't leave this area for the training exercise, we will demolish your houses. You must go to Tayasir, which is far away from here," Eid Ahmad Musa al-Fakir, a 68-year-old herder from the village of Hamamat Al-Maleh, told IRIN.

    "It was hard for us to go there with our sheep and our belongings and it's now winter, we don't have so much money and the animals are breeding. So we moved just a short distance away to the roadside."

    In preparation for the military exercise, the Israeli army issued more than 40 eviction orders to Palestinian families in the northern Jordan Valley living in or near Firing Zone areas.

    A number of Palestinians returned to their homes, but Al-Fakir and his family are unsure of when they will go back: "The army told us that even if the training exercise is over, we should not come back. Here by the roadside it's hard for our animals to graze, but we are afraid to return and find that we have to move again," he said.

    Firing zones

    This displacement and others like it this year have left Palestinian families in the area reporting a "general environment of fear and uncertainty, particularly among children".

    Israel's Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories did not respond to interview requests for specifics about the recent military exercise.

    Some 5,000 Palestinians, mostly Bedouin and herding communities, live in designated firing zones across the West Bank, according to OCHA

    Palestinians living in firing zones are among the most vulnerable populations in the West Bank with little access to services such as health care and education, and no basic utilities like electricity and sanitation.

    Access to firing zones is prohibited to Palestinians without permission from the Israeli authorities and cover about 18 percent of the land in the West Bank.


    Residents in these areas are frequently issued with eviction and demolition orders even though "many residents report that there is little or no military training in areas where they reside," according to an OCHA report.

    Where Palestinians have tried to construct, they face opposition from the Israeli government.

    Permit regime

    The Israeli permit regime, which some analysts say contravenes international law, makes daily living in Area C even more difficult for Palestinians as they are required to apply for permits to construct structures like water cisterns, latrines and houses.

    Permits are rarely granted, forcing Palestinians to forego them and risk demolition.

    All these restrictions and layers of regulation make daily life in the Jordan Valley precarious.

    According to the Ma'an Development Centre, an independent Palestinian development and training institution, "Israel has carried out more demolitions in the Jordan Valley than anywhere else."

    OCHA's factsheet on Jordan Valley settlements says that in 2011 alone there were 200 demolitions of Palestinian structures, including homes, resulting in the displacement of 430 people.


    In some instances, a building is demolished by the Israelis, rebuilt by Palestinians and then demolished again.

    Israeli settlers on the other hand are given financial assistance by the Israeli government to encourage settlement expansion.

    The settlement of Tomer, south of the Palestinian village of Fasayil, specializes in the production of dates.

    According to the Ma'an Development Centre, the settlement has become "a flourishing community with a modern infrastructure, prosperous industries, and reliable social services" as a result of "tax breaks, grants and other benefits."

    By contrast, "[Palestinian] homes in Fasayil are made of tin, plastic and mud" and the community has faced four waves of demolitions since January 2011.

    There are 10 Israeli settler communities partially or completely in the firing zones of the West Bank, though they almost never face threats of demolition.

    A strategy of control?

    Many in the Jordan Valley see military exercises in firing zones as well as repeated house demolitions as an Israeli strategy to empty the land of Palestinians and confiscate it for further settlement expansion and agricultural production.

    "This is a mountainous area, with [Israeli] people scattered across the place. Their purpose is to make us all leave so that they can take it for themselves," Fatima Abid Aouda Soraiya Fakir, one of the women displaced from the village of Al-Maitah, told IRIN. "They are afraid that we will become established here if we stay, like the village of al-Aqaba which now has schools and clinics."

    Al-Fakir, the Palestinian from Hamamat Al-Maleh, agrees. "The army wants everyone in this area to move," he said. "It's happening slowly and over time, but they definitely do not want us here."

    But the spokesperson's unit for the IDF said all structures erected in closed military zones were illegal.

    Chris Whitman from the Ma'an Development Centre agrees that the recent exercise is a method for Israel to consolidate its power in the valley.

    "To have people who are outside the system, herding and moving around is [taken as] a form of defiance," he told IRIN.

    "So Israel makes sure these people know the boundaries; makes sure they are not connected to water or electricity; ruins the area with artillery so that the animals cannot graze; and gives them the idea that their existence is temporary."

    The IDF declined to respond to these allegations.

    Whitman added that Palestinians in the Jordan Valley have become increasingly impoverished over the past 20 years.

    Those that have family elsewhere, or can afford to, may eventually choose to leave for larger towns or cities. But many rely on their animals for survival and cannot move elsewhere.

    The Palestinians in Al-Maitah say that despite their recent experience, they are staying put.

    "We are here now and we just want the Israelis to leave us alone," Ahmad Eid Soraiya Fakir from Al-Maitah told IRIN. "We are willing to live in any condition if we have to, but we will not leave."

    Reading this reminded me that someone in the 'Purpose For USA' thread said that "Historically [sic] US protects the rights, freedom, and liberty of all people".

    Yeah, sure it does.
  • yosi wrote:
    B, let's face it. I've gotten you involved in an argument that actually requires you to think for yourself rather than just regurgitating articles ad nauseum, and you evidently don't quite know how to respond. Take some time. Think it through. Read up some. Either you're for 242 or you're not. You decide.

    I'm really getting sick and tired of seeing people type "think for yourself". it's really condescending and unnecessary and shows a lack of anything concrete to add to the discussion.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
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