Israel/Gaza

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  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    aerial wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    I would never negotiate with terrorist.....

    What's your definition of terrorism?

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/terrordef.html


    Terrorism is the premeditated and or the deliberate, systematic murder, mayhem, and threats to create fear and intimidation in order to gain a political or tactical advantage, usually to influence an audience.



    Terrorism constitutes the illegitimate use of force to achieve a political objective when innocent people are targeted.

    —Walter Laqueur
    does occupation and subjugating people seek the same goal?

    yes it does.

    israel is guilty of both. hamas is a result of israeli policy. there was no hamas before the 1967 war. it is a direct result of what israel is doing.

    and hamas is fighting for their freedom. you see it as terrorism, i see it as desperate acts to defend their people. i see israel's actions as institutionalized terrorism, racism, and economic terrorism.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    Hamas is fighting for everyone to become Muslim or they will kill, rape, sodomize, or torture you and your children.........Would you want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas is fighting for everyone to become Muslim or they will kill, rape, sodomize, or torture you and your children.........Would you want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?

    one question: what would you say or do if you found out that what you wrote here was completely false?
  • polaris_x wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas is fighting for everyone to become Muslim or they will kill, rape, sodomize, or torture you and your children.........Would you want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?

    one question: what would you say or do if you found out that what you wrote here was completely false?
    +1..

    and lets say we all agree is like that with hamas...they do this horrible things
    can he please answer us then, whats the Guandanamo is for..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    polaris_x wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas is fighting for everyone to become Muslim or they will kill, rape, sodomize, or torture you and your children.........Would you want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?

    one question: what would you say or do if you found out that what you wrote here was completely false?


    Would anyone on the MT want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    aerial wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas is fighting for everyone to become Muslim or they will kill, rape, sodomize, or torture you and your children.........Would you want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?

    one question: what would you say or do if you found out that what you wrote here was completely false?


    Would anyone on the MT want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?
    no.

    aerial you have no idea why hamas exists. how can you debate something when you don't know the basics?

    hamas does not even rule all of the palestinian government. abbas is not in hamas.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    aerial wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas is fighting for everyone to become Muslim or they will kill, rape, sodomize, or torture you and your children.........Would you want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?

    one question: what would you say or do if you found out that what you wrote here was completely false?


    Would anyone on the MT want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?

    why didn't you answer my question?
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    If I am wrong I would say I am wrong
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    aerial wrote:
    If I am wrong I would say I am wrong
    i'll say it, you are wrong.

    why does hamas exist?

    is hamas in control of the palestinian government?

    if your rights were being trampled upon would you let it continue to happen? or would you align yourself with the oppressors, which clearly you are doing right now..
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    aerial wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    I would never negotiate with terrorist.....

    What's your definition of terrorism?

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/terrordef.html


    Terrorism is the premeditated and or the deliberate, systematic murder, mayhem, and threats to create fear and intimidation in order to gain a political or tactical advantage, usually to influence an audience.



    Terrorism constitutes the illegitimate use of force to achieve a political objective when innocent people are targeted.

    —Walter Laqueur

    Right. Now explain to me how this isn't the definition of what Israel has been inflicting on the Palestinians. Thanks.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas is fighting for everyone to become Muslim or they will kill, rape, sodomize, or torture you and your children.........Would you want Hamas to rule your country? Would you mind if they made your child's school there missile site?

    Aerial, please go ahead and tell us all how you came to the conclusion that Muslims are rapists, sodomites, and pedophiles. Thanks.

    Also, you know nothing about Hamas. NOTHING.

    I suggest you log off of http://www.debbieschlussel.com/bio/ and stop spouting this bullshit.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,046
    This is just silly. Why are you all so invested in defending Hamas? Forget for a second that they're fighting Israel. Stop viewing them as "the people fighting Israel," and just consider them on their own terms for a second. Is anyone here really ready to argue that Hamas is not an awful, immoral, and murderous dictatorial regime?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    This is just silly. Why are you all so invested in defending Hamas? Forget for a second that they're fighting Israel. Stop viewing them as "the people fighting Israel," and just consider them on their own terms for a second. Is anyone here really ready to argue that Hamas is not an awful, immoral, and murderous dictatorial regime?

    No, this is silly:
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas is fighting for everyone to become Muslim or they will kill, rape, sodomize, or torture you and your children.

    Do you agree with the above statement, Yosi?


    The Hamas leadership has stated on numerous occasions that it will observe a permanent ceasefire in return for Israel abiding by U.N Resolution 242, which calls for a full and immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces from all the land it captured during and after the 1967 war. The whole World supports this - except Israel, and the U.S. So we have the whole World on one side, along with Hamas, and we have Israel and the U.S on the other side, calling for an expansion of illegal, racist settlements.

    I have a question for you: Does Israel qualify as a rogue state?

    As for Hamas, they won a free and democratic election. And before you mention the fact that members of Hamas threw members of Fatah from the tops of a building, and before you try and pretend that this was in some way connected with the election, I'll just save you the trouble by pointing out that the roof-top killings took place a year after the elections, during the attempted U.S & Israeli backed coup attempt by Fatah. That incident had absolutely nothing to do with the election that took place a year before.
    (And I know that IDF.com, or whatever Israeli propaganda arm you read and obey, told the faithful Hasbara to trumpet this bullshit in it's attempt to criticize Hamas). It's really too bad that all Israel's apologists have up their proverbial sleeves are lies.

    Anyway...

    http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/02 ... g-charity2

    Hamas Victory Is Built on Social Work

    By Kim Murphy
    March 02, 2006


    For a basic tooth filling and crown, the price difference is negligible: $17 at a regular clinic, $15 at Al Quds Clinic. The real distinction is in the extras.
    “It’s safer to come to an Islamic place, where you can find a doctor who’s not only a good dentist, but a good Muslim,” said Najwa abu Mustafa, 24, who sat one recent afternoon in the sunny waiting room with several other women, shrouded in black veils but for the thin openings around their eyes. “You’re putting yourself in God’s hands.”
    The small clinic on the edge of one of the Gaza Strip’s biggest refugee camps is one of hundreds of medical centers, food banks, summer camps and schools across the West Bank and Gaza operated by Islamic charities, many of them linked to the Islamic Resistance Movement, better known by its Arabic acronym Hamas.
    The militant group’s recent victory in parliamentary elections is testimony in part to its long track record on the streets. Its services are often perceived as being of higher quality and less tainted by corruption than the cumbersome and often ineffective social network operated by the Palestinian Authority controlled until now by Fatah.
    The work Hamas does at home is an often-overlooked key to the domestic popularity of an organization most known elsewhere for killing. The United States has declared Hamas a terrorist organization, and U.S. and Israeli counter-terrorism experts have cited numerous instances in which Al Qaeda and Hamas drew funding from international Islamic charities. Hamas also reportedly has used schools and hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza to store weapons and plan attacks.
    Faced with U.S. and European measures aimed at preventing charity funds from being funneled into terrorism, Hamas has erased many of its traceable financial links to the humanitarian programs. But Hamas figures remain on the boards and in management of the programs, which analysts say have become an essential component of the group’s public support.
    “Hamas has been very good at compartmentalizing their activities – where they have a soup kitchen, for example, they simply give soup, nothing more,” said Mouin Rabbani of the International Crisis Group, which studied Islamic social activism in the occupied territories. “But it all fits into a broader pattern of popular mobilization and becomes another way of seeking support for the organization.”
    Over the last two decades, several large Islamic charities have come to be closely associated with Hamas, including the Mujamma Islami network, Al Salah Society, the Islamic Center and the Islamic University of Gaza. But the International Crisis Group said there was little “substantial evidence” that Islamic welfare institutions “systematically divert” funds to support terrorist activity.
    “Hamas doesn’t have much in the way of resources, but they have a big network of charity working in order to reduce the suffering of the Palestinian people,” said Sami abu Zuhri, a spokesman for the group in Gaza. “People feel the credibility of Hamas, and its ability to make change through the charity organizations that it runs.”
    In Gaza, Al Salah Society’s school for 1,000 orphans and other youngsters in the teeming town of Deir al Balah stands in sharp contrast to the crumbling concrete and dusty streets around it, a fenced-in oasis of palms and neat classrooms.
    “Muslims are the best nation created in the world,” says a banner hanging outside the school, next to another that says, “Those who learn more earn a higher degree in paradise.”
    Al Salah’s director, Ahmad Kurd, was recently elected mayor of Deir al Balah, and Hamas scooped up two of the region’s three parliamentary seats in the January elections.
    “In 1994 there was an Israeli operation which destroyed several Palestinian houses [of families of suspected militants] in one of the poorest neighborhoods,” Kurd said. “I had to meet with the Israeli commander, and he asked me, ‘Why are you supporting and helping those victims who lost their homes?’
    “I told him, ‘The Red Crescent is helping, the Churches United organization also gives some help to them, the Catholic Relief organization, the United Nations. And Al Salah Society is there as well. Is it forbidden?’ And he was not able to respond to that.”
    When Israeli forces launched a major incursion into the southern Gaza refugee camp of Rafah in 2004, leaving nearly 1,500 residents homeless, Al Salah sent fundraisers with megaphones down the streets, going door to door, standing on street corners and outside the mosques. Women were asked to drop their gold necklaces into the collection boxes. Poor families gave sacks of rice. Al Salah collected $1 million worth of food, valuables and cash in Gaza, one of the poorest places in the Middle East.
    Yet Kurd said it would be a mistake to think Hamas won the votes because of its charity work.
    “The people are getting a lot more money from America, from the international community. The international donors distributed perhaps $6 billion in the last 10 years. The Islamic charity organizations didn’t pay out 1% of that money,” he said.
    Palestinians associate U.S. aid with Washington’s support for Israel, he said. “The Palestinian feels, ‘You give me that money, and you kill me. You give me money, and you destroy my house. You give me money, and you send planes to kill our kids.’ ”
    Abu Zuhri, the Hamas spokesman, said international aid had focused on public works projects but had done little to provide direct help to the poor, or to those families that have lost a breadwinner in the conflict with Israel.
    “Unfortunately, the Western side has donated for projects like cleaning the streets or painting the walls, but they didn’t give anything for the care of orphans,” he said. Some of the most controversial programs operated by the Muslim charities provide stipends, housing and direct financial aid to the families of suicide bombers.
    In the narrow alleyways of the sprawling refugee camp at Deir al Balah, hundreds of families get cash payments of $40 to $100 a month from Mujamma Islami and Al Salah, along with meat, beans, flour and eggs.
    “We would be completely destitute without this help,” said Ataf Ostaz, 41, who has nine children and whose husband died of a stroke two years ago. “Naturally, we gave our votes to Hamas, because they are the ones who touch our need.”
    The unlikely mix of services offered at Al Quds Clinic – pediatrics, maternal healthcare, orthodontics and post-surgical care – is no accident. Mujamma Islami, which opened the center in October 2002, conducted a survey of the clinics already operating in Khan Yunis.
    “We did studies and reached the decision that some services are not good enough in government hospitals, and so we decided to offer these services ourselves,” said clinic director Atiya Abumoaamar. “The point is that the public hospitals are very, very cheap, so where we compete with them is not in prices, but in quality.”
    At the same time, fees generally are substantially lower than those at private clinics.
    Caseloads now reach up to 400 patients a month, and if there is a profit at the end of the month, Abumoaamar splits it with doctors and office staff. Otherwise, they work without salary as volunteers. The effort has been judged such a success that two more clinics are opening soon, with funding from the Saudi-based World Assembly of Muslim Youth.
    “If the international community will just give it a chance and will not isolate it, if donors don’t freeze the funds, if the Arab countries help make some solution, I guarantee that Hamas will do a better job of running this society,” Abumoaamar said.
    But some Palestinians point out that there is a big difference between operating schools and clinics and running a government for 3 million people.
    “The Palestinian Authority has to reach everyone, and in a situation of closures, unemployment reaching unprecedented figures, and in an environment in which you are constantly being undermined, these services are obligatory,” said Issam Younis, director of the Al Mezan Center for Human Rights in Gaza City.
    “Hamas has done its homework. Over the years, they have established very good social services, they have the maximum use of the mosque,” he said. “And it will be good to have Hamas in the government. Welcome! But think of the situation.
    “With Abu Mazen [current Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas], the international community transferred only $350 million of the $1 billion they were supposed to send for 2005. This is with the good guys in charge, not the terrorists!” he said. “Imagine how things will be with Hamas.”"
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    This is just silly. Why are you all so invested in defending Hamas? Forget for a second that they're fighting Israel. Stop viewing them as "the people fighting Israel," and just consider them on their own terms for a second. Is anyone here really ready to argue that Hamas is not an awful, immoral, and murderous dictatorial regime?

    as soon as you admit that hamas is a byproduct of an awful, immoral and murderous dictatorial regime ...
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    polaris_x wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    This is just silly. Why are you all so invested in defending Hamas? Forget for a second that they're fighting Israel. Stop viewing them as "the people fighting Israel," and just consider them on their own terms for a second. Is anyone here really ready to argue that Hamas is not an awful, immoral, and murderous dictatorial regime?

    as soon as you admit that hamas is a byproduct of an awful, immoral and murderous dictatorial regime ...
    this is the crux of it right here. if israel were not those things then there would be no hamas. it is as simple as that. as byrnzie stated, hamas has promised to observe a permanent ceasefire if israel acts the way the international community is demanding.

    people try to make this issue more complex than it is. and in doing so it just convolutes the situation and confuses people.

    hamas exists because of how the zionist israeli government and settlers have treated the palestinians.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    this is the crux of it right here. if israel were not those things then there would be no hamas. it is as simple as that. as byrnzie stated, hamas has promised to observe a permanent ceasefire if israel acts the way the international community is demanding.

    people try to make this issue more complex than it is. and in doing so it just convolutes the situation and confuses people.

    hamas exists because of how the zionist israeli government and settlers have treated the palestinians.

    i've been saying it all along ... israel NEEDS hamas ... they love groups like hezbollah and hamas sending in suicide bombers and rockets ... it allows them to justify their oppressive regime ... it's like the patriot act in the US ... how do you impose laws that take away privacy and rights? ... you make sure the fear behind the enemy is greater than the loss of rights ...

    israel knows all they have to do is expand somewhere ... kill a few innocent people and hamas will retaliate and they can continue to perpetuate the myth and lies that is the basis of their oppression ...
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    ISRAEL MUST PROTECT ITSELF FROM HOSPITALS AND AMBULANCES because you never know if one of those ambulances is a rocket launcher capable of killing a handful of their people!


    Dr. Majdi Na’eim worked for eight consecutive days at Al-Shifa Hospital throughout Israel’s “Pillar of Cloud” operation in the Gaza strip. With hundreds of wounded pouring into the emergency room, there was no time for him and many of his colleagues to even leave the hospital. On the final and one of the most brutal days of the assault, Israel targeted Ni’ma tower in Gaza City. Dr. Na’eim was in the emergency room aiding physicians when he learned that one of the arriving casualties was his two year old son, Abdel Rahman Na’eim. Imagine a father’s horror and instant grief. At his son’s wake, Dr. Na’eim told friends and family who were seeking to comfort him, “I’m terribly sorry. I’m unable to talk about anything.”

    Gazans in the medical field have been working in unimaginable circumstances for years. During Israel’s Operation Cast Lead, “17 health personnel were killed and 26 injured. In total, 29 ambulances were damaged or destroyed by bombs or crushed by armoured vehicles, while 48 per cent of Gaza’s 122 health facilities were either directly or indirectly hit by shelling.” On November 29th, 2012, Bashar Abu Murad, head of emergency and rescue services at the Palestine Red Crescent, sat down with our delegation and gave us a first-hand account of the January 15th, 2009, attack on Al-Quds hospital. He described the panic as the hospital sustained two white phosphorus blasts from Israeli forces. A massive fire broke out after the first munitions were launched. It took six hours to squelch the fire with only water and sand bags. Workers frantically scrambled to evacuate patients and others who were taking refuge. Meanwhile, a journalist hid under the table. Bashar personally carried three people from the intensive care unit to safety. Though the first fire was eventually stopped, the hospital was rendered useless after a second shelling of white phosphorus.

    Our conversation moved to the experiences of this war. Though Al-Quds hospital was not directly attacked this time and the doctors there had not seen evidence of injuries from white phosphorus, they described third degree burns and amputations caused from Israel’s “non-lethal” warning bombs and the many casualties from larger missiles fired from F16s financed by the United States. Bashar spoke of the difficulties of functioning as a medical service in a society under siege. Emergency medical technicians must improvise without basic supplies like gauze for the injured and enough body bags for the intake of casualties. Field medics and emergency medical technicians have limited contact with the hospitals because the blockade restricts them to having only insufficient analogue radios instead of modern digital communications technology. Al-Quds was running off of a gas generator due to the unstable supply of electricity. The hospital had just attained a three month buffer supply of basic medicines, all of which were depleted in the conflict. Abu Murad continued, “It is hard to even think clearly in these conditions. All 1.5 million Gazans are suffering from PTSD from this war.” The doctors were not excluded from his statement.

    Later that afternoon, we interviewed two young ambulance drivers, Shadi al Tayef and Aadl el Azbot. We asked them how they summoned the courage to carry on in this work during the recent war after ambulances were targeted in Operation Cast Lead. Shadi replied, “This war was not unfamiliar from the last. In the final days, the streets were empty. Everyone was waiting in their houses. We do it only because we care about saving the people. It is all for the people.” Aadl continues to drive ambulances and is not deterred even though he was previously injured by shrapnel when the Israelis fired upon a site for the second time after the emergency vehicles arrived. According to the drivers, the Israeli military had to be aware of the emergency medics’ presence, not only from the elaborate surveillance systems comprised of drones and hot-air balloons equipped with cameras, but also because they must first coordinate every rescue mission with the Red Cross which is in direct contact with the Israeli military. Ambulance workers have often been denied access to sites until it is too late to save the wounded, only to be fired upon after receiving clearance. “We are still suffering from trauma even up to this moment,” Aadl declared anxiously. The Red Crescent society does offer psychological services to its employees, but it hard to conceive that it can keep up with the level of need. Six ambulances were destroyed and seven workers were injured during the “Pillar of Cloud” conflict. “We must cope with the situation at work, but we are given space to be human and take time at home,” Shadi asserted.

    Countries and organizations sympathetic to Gazans working under fire have extended medical and financial solidarity to provide services to the population and rebuild facilities. Around the corner from Al-Quds, we toured a Moroccan military field hospital which was set up just days after the major hostilities ended. Initially, we were somewhat intimidated by the long lines, tight Moroccan security surrounding the compound and the foreboding looking communications director. Wearing opaque sun glasses, full army fatigues and towering over six feet tall, this public relations representative looked more like a commander than a humanitarian worker. We were put at ease when he welcomed us proudly, “Ahlan wa Sahlan,”and readily introduced us to the primary physician.

    Dr. Hassan Ismael explained that the Moroccan King ordered the hospital to be equipped with 26 doctors and 15 specialists. As of the 4th of December, the doctors had been working for nine days, seeing over 4000 people and providing over 6000 services for no cost to the patients. Services include treatment for severe burns and broken bones, emergency surgical operations and the dispensing of medicines, many of which were not regularly available in Gaza. The doctors were also happy to provide care for illnesses not related to the war. We met with a refugee, originally from Jaffa, who received injections for severe arthritis. She stood up immediately, waving her arms emphatically. “These doctors are from God… A gift from the God!” she repeats. Nearby, a father from Khan Younis finally found appropriate treatment for his epileptic son.

    It was impressive to see the quality and efficiency of what was taking place in the field hospital when the military infrastructure, which is so often used by the majority of countries for nothing more than a tool of domination and destruction, was converted to serve human needs. When much of the world stood by silently and watched, Moroccans also set up a similar medical camp and provided financial aid to rebuild Al-Quds hospital after Operation Cast Lead.

    Members from the international emergency delegation to Gaza reached out to their circles to raise around 25,000 dollars for medication to give to Gazan hospitals. Though the doctors and administrators we encountered were grateful for the donations and gestures, they emphasized that the problem that Gaza is facing is primarily political. They desire an end to the siege, occupation, military incursions and the right to self- determination, among other concrete demands. They welcomed support, but they do not want to be reliant upon international aid. They have the training, knowledge and dedication to do their jobs well and to be self-sufficient. Dr. Khalil Abu-Foul, a spokesperson for the Red Crescent, gave us a reality check, “You are our eyes in your country. These rockets are from your country. Just send the facts, it’s enough.”

    Sitting with families over the past week, most of whom have “facts on the ground” and stories every degree as distressing as that of Dr. Majdi Na’eim’s tragic loss of his son, I have often felt a complete lack of words. What can one say when visiting the home and farm of Walid and Tawqfiq al Nassasra, Bedouin farmers and brothers living near Rafah? On November 19th at 10 PM, an Israeli war plane targeted Tawqfiq’s tin-roof home. The house was completely destroyed leaving a massive crater in the ground. Tawqfiq’s two teenage sons, Ahmed and Mohamed, were both killed. They did not suffer any bone fractures. The pressure from the bomb caused their internal organs to explode. It is amazing there were any survivors. Tawqfiq is still hospitalized, while his wife was blinded and his young daughter was severely burned. What apologies will matter to the wife or daughter, who are now permanently disfigured and disabled, whose tearful gazes pierced our lifeless cameras and shredded our notebooks full of numbers and statistics? What prospects for recovery or receiving advanced treatment do they have while Gaza is still under siege? I grasped for some condolence. The words are insufficient. We all have a responsibility to take stronger actions so that these tragedies will never happen again.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    polaris_x wrote:
    i've been saying it all along ... israel NEEDS hamas ... they love groups like hezbollah and hamas sending in suicide bombers and rockets ... it allows them to justify their oppressive regime ... it's like the patriot act in the US ... how do you impose laws that take away privacy and rights? ... you make sure the fear behind the enemy is greater than the loss of rights ...

    israel knows all they have to do is expand somewhere ... kill a few innocent people and hamas will retaliate and they can continue to perpetuate the myth and lies that is the basis of their oppression ...
    ^ this

    this is why we have a standing military, which our founding fathers opposed......

    it is all about fear. keeping people scared. israel is acting out of fear.

    israel is expanding settlements while they can, because sooner or later the world community is going to make them stop. and that is what they fear. it is much harder for them to retreat once settlements are built.

    why do people think they are trying to divide the land that would be a palestinian country in two?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has definitely crossed an international red line to vindicate a swift and firm rejection from Israel’s closest allies when he announced plans recently to build a new settlement on a corridor of occupied Palestinian land in East Jerusalem, which will render any prospective Palestinian contiguous state territorially impossible.

    Daniel Seidemann, the Israeli founder of Terrestrial Jerusalem, has condemned it as “the doomsday settlement” and “not a routine” one.

    Netanyahu risks a diplomatic confrontation that will not develop into a diplomatic isolation of Israel because Israel’s allies have decided to pressure him to backtrack by “incentives and disincentives” instead of “sanctions,” in the words of the British Foreign Secretary William Hague.

    Summoning Israeli ambassadors to protest Netanyahu’s plans by Australia, Brazil, France, UK, Sweden, Denmark and Spain was nonetheless an unusual international outcry because “if implemented,” his “plans would alter the situation, with Jerusalem as a shared capital increasingly difficult to achieve,” according to William Hague, thus “seriously undermining the two – state solution” of the Palestinian – Israeli conflict according to the French foreign ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot, which is a “solution without which there will never be security in Israel,” according to the Australian Foreign Minister Bob Carr.

    The international outcry is not against the Israeli policy of settlements on Palestinian occupied land per se, but against this one particular E-1 settlement, which was Netanyahu’s answer to the overwhelming recent recognition of Palestine as a non-member state by the UN General Assembly.

    Because, on the ground, the site of some 4.6 square miles (12 square km) of this settlement on the easternmost edge of eastern Jerusalem will close the only territorial link between the north and south of the West Bank and sever it from East Jerusalem, the prospective capital of the State of Palestine, thus undermining any viable and contiguous Palestinian state on the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 and turning the recognition of the UN General Assembly on November 29, 2012 as merely a Palestinian paper achievement.

    The U.S. and the EU opposed the E-1 (East One) plan since it was taken out of Israeli drawers in 2005; because they were alert to its potential undermining effect on the “peace process.” Now, the five permanent members of the UN Security Council and the United Nations have all warned against the E-1 plan.

    The White House and US State Department described the plan as “unilateral,” “counterproductive,” “sets back” peace efforts, “especially damaging to efforts to achieve a two-state solution,” “complicate efforts to resume direct, bilateral negotiations” and “risk prejudging the outcome” of such negotiations, and “contrary to US policy.”

    The EU high Representative Catherine Ashton on Dec. 2 said she was “extremely concerned,” described the plan as “an obstacle to peace,” condemning “all settlement construction” as “illegal under international law,” a judgment shared by UK’s William Hague who added the plan “would undermine Israel’s international reputation and create doubts about its stated commitment to achieving peace.” Italian Premier Mario Monti and French President Francois Hollande in a joint statement said they were “deeply worried” by the plan. German government spokesman Steffen Seibert said his country was “deeply concerned.” Sweden’s Foreign Minister Carl Bildt said the plan was “extremely worrying.”

    China’s Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said his country “has always firmly opposed Israel’s construction of settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory of East Jerusalem and the West Bank.” Russia “views” the plan “with the most serious concern” because it “would have a very negative effect.” UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon warned the plan “would represent an almost fatal blow to remaining chances of securing a two-state solution.”

    All the five permanent members of the UN Security Council and the United Nations called on Israel to “rescind,” “reconsider,” “reverse” its plans, “go back on them,” “exercise restraint” and “eliminate obstacles to the peace talks with Palestine.”

    However, when it comes to translating their words into action they stand helpless, to render all their statements “an audio phenomenon” as described by Abdul Bari Atwan, the editor–in–chief of the London – based Arabic daily Al-Quds Al–Arabi, a hollow outcry short of an overdue action by the world community.

    It is no surprise therefore that Netanyahu is encouraged enough to insist on pursuing his plans.

    The international community’s inaction could not but vindicate the expected Palestinian reaction. President Mahmoud Abbas late on Dec. 4 chaired a Palestinian leadership meeting in Ramallah, attended for the first time by the representatives of the rival Hamas and Islamic Jihad movements. They decided to ask the UN Security Council to adopt a binding resolution obliging Israel to stop all settlement activities in the occupied State of Palestine, concluding that Israel “is forcing us to go to the International Criminal Court (ICC).”

    Netanyahu’s defiance and the Palestinian leadership’s decision will both put the credibility of all the five permanent members of the UN Security Council to an historic test: They either decide to act on their own words or their inaction will inevitably leave the Palestinians with the only option of defending their very existence by all the means available to them.

    For Palestinians, to be or not to be has become an existential issue that could no longer be entrusted to international community.
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    The world knows the position of the United States in regard to Israel’s defiance of international law. On November 29, rather than censure Israel for its longtime rejection of dozens of UN Security Council Resolutions, Washington and its wagatail puppies rolled over and enjoyed a Tel Aviv tummy tickle for voting against a General Assembly resolution acknowledging the right of the Palestinian people to aspire to statehood. America supports the Jews of the world in having their own country called Israel but refuses to permit Arab citizens of the region to have their own country called Palestine in land which belongs to them.

    There are 193 nations in the UN General Assembly, and 138 of them voted to recognise Palestine. 41 pathetic fence-sitters abstained. Five didn’t even turn up. And seven little lapdogs actually voted with Israel and the US against the resolution.

    The United States of America is a member of the United Nations Security Council which in its Resolution 487 required “Israel urgently to place its nuclear facilities under IAEA safeguards.” Israel has done no such thing. Nor will it ever do. And that Resolution also “strongly condemned” Israel for its “clear violation of the Charter of the United Nations and the norms of international conduct.”

    In the years following that unambiguous censure of Israel, Washington has changed its game dramatically. Nowadays the Council can’t condemn Israel for anything.

    Among US vetoes of Security Council Resolutions censuring Israel for its barbaric jamborees there has been US approval of Israel’s invasion of Lebanon, US agreement that Israel should not have to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinian people, and US endorsement of Israel’s construction of unlawful settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories. The US has used its pro-Israel veto 10 times since 2000 and even rejected a Resolution that criticized the killing of four UN military observers by Israeli forces, about which Secretary General Kofi Annan said that “This coordinated artillery and aerial attack on a long established and clearly marked UN post occurred despite personal assurances given to me by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that UN positions would be spared Israeli fire.” He might have saved his breath, because the US doesn’t believe in UN peacekeeping, having the majestic total of seven military observers of the 1,981 serving around the world. And 25 of the 81,319 soldiers currently deployed on UN worldwide peacekeeping duties are Americans. (Please stop laughing.)

    Washington’s unconditional sponsorship of Tel Aviv included last year’s refusal to condemn resumption of Israeli illegal settlement building that was destroying the wavering dialogue between Tel Aviv and Palestine. The US Representative, the appalling Susan Rice — who may be next Secretary of State, heaven help us — acknowledged that Israel’s persecution of Palestinians was unlawful but declared Washington’s support of illegality to be justified because if America voted against Israel it would “risk hardening the positions of both sides and could encourage the parties to stay out of negotiations.”

    Presumably she spouted that garbage with a straight face, but must have had a bit of a giggle afterwards, back in the office with the rest of the goys.

    There is no question of UN sanctions being imposed on Israel for its contemptuous rejection of UN Security Council Resolution 452 which states that “the policy of Israel in establishing settlements in the occupied Arab territories has no legal validity and constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.” The entire world required that “the Government and people of Israel . . . cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967.” It couldn’t be a more precise order. But to Israel, Befehl ist Befehl only when the order is acceptable. Befehl ausgeführt!

    138 countries condemn expulsion of Palestinians from their ancient lands and denounce relentless construction of more and more illegal Jewish settlements, but the racist fascists of Tel Aviv pay no attention to commandments. They scorn international law because they are backed to the hilt by all Washington administrations. There is hardly a US legislator wanting re-election who would dare to vote against Israel.

    ***

    On the other hand, as the Arms Control Association noted in August, “The United Nations Security Council has adopted six resolutions as part of international efforts to address Iran’s nuclear program.” And as a result of being considered guilty of failing to abide by some of these resolutions Iran has been subjected to a large range of vicious sanctions that are in the process of destroying a generation of children. These young people do not only suffer physical privation forced on them by the spite and malice of the West, but will be affected mentally, too.

    Following the disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan it is more widely accepted that after involvement in combat very many soldiers suffer from ‘Post Traumatic Stress Disorder’ — in other words, they can be condemned to many years, and possibly a lifetime, of mental disturbance and torment because of their hellish experiences. (The suicide rate among US veterans is truly appalling.) But the psychological effects of physical malevolence are not limited to those caused by shock, shot and shell. When groups of countries gang up to wage economic war on a weaker nation there are very similar effects on young citizens of the victim state. They will experience — are suffering now, in Iran — the dreadful consequences of vicious non-conflict terrorism. This is barbarism inflicted by denial of basic human decency in the guise of imposing international law.

    Many of the wretched Iranian children who survive will grow up with an abiding hatred of the West, whose citizens they will rightly regard as thuggish supporters of their oppression. They will react in exactly the same way as do the many generations of Palestinians who have suffered hellish misery, poverty and persecution at the hands of the apartheid fascists in Tel Aviv. Western nations have imposed a heritage of hatred on Iran, and in years to come will deeply regret the actions of their dimwitted governments.

    It isn’t only children in Iran who are being subjected to the US-initiated international vendetta, because sanctions ravage all ages, and adults are suffering grievously, too. As one medical expert put it, “More than anything else, we have a lack of medicines for patients suffering from cancer and multiple sclerosis . . . all because of sanctions against banks or problems with transferring foreign currency.” Don’t be old and sick in Iran. In fact, don’t be any age and sick in Iran, because your suffering will be increased by the spiteful efforts of western countries to destroy you and your country. And the world shrugs and lets the US and its nasty little puppets have their way.

    The UN Secretary General, the principled and civilized Ban Ki Moon, says that “sanctions imposed on Iran have had significant effects on the general population, including an escalation in inflation, a rise in commodities and energy costs, an increase in the rate of unemployment and a shortage of necessary items, including medicine.” But all he will achieve by his honesty is US hatred to the point that Washington will ensure he will not have a second term as Secretary General. Washington chose him as SG because it was thought he would not dare to whisper even such dignified criticism as he has ventured about the evil strangling of a country’s innocent citizens. He’s a gone gosling, but at least he is honorable and has highlighted the bizarre hypocrisy of Washington’s policies.

    Why does America inflict sanctions on Iran while backing Israel to the hilt when it scorns International Law? UN Security Council Resolution 1322 “Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention”. But no action is ever taken to make Israel’s government abide by any international ruling. There are over half a million illegal Jewish occupiers of Palestinian territory, but US supporters of Israel, including Susan Rice and Barack Obama, refuse to do anything about such blatant flouting of international law. Tel Aviv’s announcement on November 30 that a further 3,000 Jewish houses are to be built in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank was even further proof of the sneering contempt that Israel has for Palestinians and the world.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,046
    Forgive me, but you're all evading the point. For the sake of argument I will assume for the moment that everything you all say about Israel is true and that the only reason Hamas was founded was in reaction to the Israeli occupation. None of that should excuse Hamas' actions.

    So they were elected...so what? The Nazis were also elected. So was the Israeli government that you all seem to think are a bunch of war criminals. So were the American and Canadian governments that you've been criticizing. Being elected doesn't mean that Hamas isn't still a repressive and violent terrorist organization. It just means that they have (or had at the time) the support of the majority of the Palestinian electorate.

    So they provide social services...again, so what? So does Israel to its citizens. So did the Nazis to theirs. Again, just cause a group does some good things doesn't mean they don't also do lots of terrible things.

    Now let's address the contention that they are only a reaction to the occupation. Perhaps. But if you actually take a comprehensive look at what Hamas says (and not what western apologists say for them) it's clear that the issue is more complicated than that. There is a very good argument to be made that Hamas is not aimed at ending only the occupation, but is aimed at establishing Palestinian Muslim control over all of what is currently Israel, so that even if the organization was started in reaction to the occupation it's goals, and its animating animosity, reach much further than that. Moreover, it's pretty well accepted that the Nazis were a reaction to the incredibly harsh and unjust conditions imposed on Germany at Versailles at the end of WWI. Does the fact that Nazism was a reaction to injustice render it immune to criticism?

    The claim that Hamas has indicated that they would accept a permanent ceasefire is likewise ambiguous. Notice that they've never said they would make peace with Israel under any conditions, and notice too the incongruity in the notion of a "permanent" ceasefire, given that the very notion of a ceasefire implies only a limited cessation of hostilities. Moreover, other statements by Hamas representatives have indicated that Hamas will never make peace with Israel, or recognize its right to resist, or give up its goal of reconquering the lands lost in 1948, so to focus entirely on the one already ambiguous statement that indicates some moderation is at best naive or ill-informed and at worst disingenuous.

    No, B, I don't agree with that statement, nor do I think that I have ever given you reason to believe that I would, so I'd thank you if you wouldn't imply otherwise. That said, Hamas' ideology, growing out of the Muslim Brotherhood, contains some pretty fucked up notions, a fact that you avoid entirely by focusing only on the exagerations of your interlocutor.

    Ignoring Israel for a second, how does Hamas treat women, or homosexuals, or political opponents? What's their record on press freedom, or due process of law, or freedom of religion? I think that anyone who looks at Hamas with clear eyes can see that they're awful on every count. Attributing this to Israel is nothing more than blatant apologetics.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    Ignoring Israel for a second, how does Hamas treat women, or homosexuals, or political opponents? What's their record on press freedom, or due process of law, or freedom of religion? I think that anyone who looks at Hamas with clear eyes can see that they're awful on every count. Attributing this to Israel is nothing more than blatant apologetics.

    this is very confusing ...

    i don't think there is anyone here who thinks hamas is a good thing ... nor does anyone hold hamas as some beacon of justice or champion of human rights ... by that token - it serves the opposite purpose to label the faction and in some people's eyes (all islamists) as murderers, rapists and torturers ... so, if by decrying those generalizations we come across as holding hamas in some alternate light - it's simply not true ...

    this is ultimately about WHO is oppressing who and who has the power to end the violence ... the clear answer is Israel ... you know that ... we all know that ...
  • polaris_x wrote:
    [.

    this is ultimately about WHO is oppressing who and who has the power to end the violence ... the clear answer is Israel ... you know that ... we all know that ...
    i really believe that too
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    i really believe that too

    it's plain for everyone to see ... it is why the majority of the world is united in it's condemnation of many israeli actions ... having the US garners israel no moral credibility whatsoever ...
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,046
    Look, I agree 100% that no peace is possible without Israel changing its course of action. But it's also true that no peace will be possible if Hamas doesn't also change course. Even if Israel and Abbas were to come to an agreement, if Hamas continued to pursue violence (or it stood by while others in the territory it controls did so) the peace could only hold so long before the Israeli public (understandably, I think) would demand that the government take action to protect them.

    Given this, and the perception of the Israelis that Hamas is dedicated to pursuing violence and isn't interested in a permanent peace, they're reluctant to make concession that could affect security that they don't think are going to get them any closer to peace. I think this is shortsighted, but I can understand the impulse.

    My point is that in the long run, for there to be peace, Hamas has to either exit the picture or fundamentally change. AND I think that when Hamas surveys the state of international opinion and sees that people are doing exactly what people here are doing, namely, reacting to outbreaks of violence by placing all the blame on Israel, they come to the not-illogical conclusion that violence is strategically beneficial to them. Since I think its clear that the only solution that will work in the long run is a negotiated solution I think its important to hold Hamas to account, rather than merely excusing their violence as a reaction to Israel's actions.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    Look, I agree 100% that no peace is possible without Israel changing its course of action. But it's also true that no peace will be possible if Hamas doesn't also change course. Even if Israel and Abbas were to come to an agreement, if Hamas continued to pursue violence (or it stood by while others in the territory it controls did so) the peace could only hold so long before the Israeli public (understandably, I think) would demand that the government take action to protect them.

    Given this, and the perception of the Israelis that Hamas is dedicated to pursuing violence and isn't interested in a permanent peace, they're reluctant to make concession that could affect security that they don't think are going to get them any closer to peace. I think this is shortsighted, but I can understand the impulse.

    My point is that in the long run, for there to be peace, Hamas has to either exit the picture or fundamentally change. AND I think that when Hamas surveys the state of international opinion and sees that people are doing exactly what people here are doing, namely, reacting to outbreaks of violence by placing all the blame on Israel, they come to the not-illogical conclusion that violence is strategically beneficial to them. Since I think its clear that the only solution that will work in the long run is a negotiated solution I think its important to hold Hamas to account, rather than merely excusing their violence as a reaction to Israel's actions.

    which brings me to the point that Israel needs Hamas ... the current course Israel has long adopted requires justification ... what better justification than Hamas!? ... you very well know that if Hamas ceased to exist tomorrow ... that Israel would simply look for another reason to continue its oppression ...

    the hard-right people that are dictating israeli policy are not interested in peace ... you know that ... how long should the palestinians continue to accept this regime in silence? ... israel can't even control the ultra-orthodox settlers that are terrorizing palestinians everywhere ... and you want Hamas to stop? ... it's just not realistic ...

    this isn't a what came first - the chicken or the egg ... we know what the situation is like right now and that is Israel continues to violate human rights and their terrorizing of palestinian people far outweigh any thing coming back ...

    Israelis need to hold their gov't accountable ...

    * acknowledge your crimes
    * stop expansion
    * negotiate borders on good faith

    peace is very easy to accomplish here once israel acknowledges their actions
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,046
    I agree with you that the current govt. isn't interested in peace, and that they def. need to start cracking down on the settlers. And I agree that if Hamas disappeared tomorrow that wouldn't all of a sudden mean that peace would instantly occur. My point is that Hamas isn't going anywhere, and that the reality is that it is also a key player whose actions affect the possibilities for peace, and it is therefore irresponsible and unrealistic to expect that peace can be made without addressing the obstacle posed by Hamas.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JC29856 wrote:
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has definitely crossed an international red line to vindicate a swift and firm rejection from Israel’s closest allies when he announced plans recently to build a new settlement on a corridor of occupied Palestinian land in East Jerusalem, which will render any prospective Palestinian contiguous state territorially impossible.

    Daniel Seidemann, the Israeli founder of Terrestrial Jerusalem, has condemned it as “the doomsday settlement” and “not a routine” one...

    You have a link for this?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Forgive me, but you're all evading the point. For the sake of argument I will assume for the moment that everything you all say about Israel is true and that the only reason Hamas was founded was in reaction to the Israeli occupation. None of that should excuse Hamas' actions.

    So they were elected...so what? The Nazis were also elected. So was the Israeli government that you all seem to think are a bunch of war criminals. So were the American and Canadian governments that you've been criticizing. Being elected doesn't mean that Hamas isn't still a repressive and violent terrorist organization. It just means that they have (or had at the time) the support of the majority of the Palestinian electorate.

    So they provide social services...again, so what? So does Israel to its citizens. So did the Nazis to theirs. Again, just cause a group does some good things doesn't mean they don't also do lots of terrible things.

    Now let's address the contention that they are only a reaction to the occupation. Perhaps. But if you actually take a comprehensive look at what Hamas says (and not what western apologists say for them) it's clear that the issue is more complicated than that. There is a very good argument to be made that Hamas is not aimed at ending only the occupation, but is aimed at establishing Palestinian Muslim control over all of what is currently Israel, so that even if the organization was started in reaction to the occupation it's goals, and its animating animosity, reach much further than that. Moreover, it's pretty well accepted that the Nazis were a reaction to the incredibly harsh and unjust conditions imposed on Germany at Versailles at the end of WWI. Does the fact that Nazism was a reaction to injustice render it immune to criticism?

    The claim that Hamas has indicated that they would accept a permanent ceasefire is likewise ambiguous. Notice that they've never said they would make peace with Israel under any conditions, and notice too the incongruity in the notion of a "permanent" ceasefire, given that the very notion of a ceasefire implies only a limited cessation of hostilities. Moreover, other statements by Hamas representatives have indicated that Hamas will never make peace with Israel, or recognize its right to resist, or give up its goal of reconquering the lands lost in 1948, so to focus entirely on the one already ambiguous statement that indicates some moderation is at best naive or ill-informed and at worst disingenuous.

    No, B, I don't agree with that statement, nor do I think that I have ever given you reason to believe that I would, so I'd thank you if you wouldn't imply otherwise. That said, Hamas' ideology, growing out of the Muslim Brotherhood, contains some pretty fucked up notions, a fact that you avoid entirely by focusing only on the exagerations of your interlocutor.

    Ignoring Israel for a second, how does Hamas treat women, or homosexuals, or political opponents? What's their record on press freedom, or due process of law, or freedom of religion? I think that anyone who looks at Hamas with clear eyes can see that they're awful on every count. Attributing this to Israel is nothing more than blatant apologetics.

    So let me get this right: Hamas were elected in a free and fair election, but they are, like the Nazis, dictators.

    They provide vital social services, and are supported by the majority of Palestinians, but 'so what?'

    The Hamas charter states they won't be happy until they've conquered all of Israel proper, despite the fact they've conquered absolutely nothing of Israel, and have in fact been under Israeli occupation for the past 60 years - if you count the land stolen by Israel during the 1948 war that fell outside of the Partition plan. But for arguments sake, let's just focus on the occupation as it pertains to the land stolen in June 1967. Hamas, along with the whole World (excluding the U.S), have stated explicitly they support U.N 242 which calls for a full and immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces to the '67 borders. Israel has never accepted this offer of a peaceful settlement, and so it has never allowed Hamas the chance to prove it's sincerity on this point. And as for Hamas not being happy until they've conquered all of Israel, I notice that you make no mention of the Zionist leaderships statements on this matter. The Zionist leadership have made it perfectly clear down the years that they want to seize all of the land between the Jordan river and the Sea. And yet, unlike the Palestinians, they have never refuted these ambitions, and never made any offers of a permanent peace based on international law.

    Lastly, as how Hamas treats 'political opponents, [...]their record on press freedom, [...]due process of law, [and] freedom of religion', yes, they have a lot to answer for. But then this is a regime under military occupation, and under attack from Israel's proxies - i.e, Fatah. If you take a look at the history of resistance movements throughout the World you'll notice they all follow a similar pattern. I suppose this is due largely to necessity. Then again, Israel's record re: it's opponents, press freedom, due process of law, and freedom of religion, isn't exactly rosy either, is it? And yet, what's their excuse?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Look, I agree 100% that no peace is possible without Israel changing its course of action. But it's also true that no peace will be possible if Hamas doesn't also change course. Even if Israel and Abbas were to come to an agreement, if Hamas continued to pursue violence (or it stood by while others in the territory it controls did so) the peace could only hold so long before the Israeli public (understandably, I think) would demand that the government take action to protect them.

    Given this, and the perception of the Israelis that Hamas is dedicated to pursuing violence and isn't interested in a permanent peace, they're reluctant to make concession that could affect security that they don't think are going to get them any closer to peace. I think this is shortsighted, but I can understand the impulse.

    My point is that in the long run, for there to be peace, Hamas has to either exit the picture or fundamentally change. AND I think that when Hamas surveys the state of international opinion and sees that people are doing exactly what people here are doing, namely, reacting to outbreaks of violence by placing all the blame on Israel, they come to the not-illogical conclusion that violence is strategically beneficial to them. Since I think its clear that the only solution that will work in the long run is a negotiated solution I think its important to hold Hamas to account, rather than merely excusing their violence as a reaction to Israel's actions.

    What does any of this have to do with Israel not only maintaining the illegal settlements, but building new ones?
    Seriously, even if Hamas began wearing Nazi uniforms and devils horns and tails, how would their actions excuse or justify stealing their land?
    The Israeli's could dismantle, and/or evacuate their racist Jewish-only settlements tomorrow. They could then fortify their internationally recognised border. But they won't. And their reasons for not doing so, and in fact their reasons for recently declaring that they will in fact build 3000 more illegal homes, has absolutely nothing to do with Hamas. Nothing whatso-fucking-ever.
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