So I need to get to a meeting. If all goes well, I intend to have a few post meeting beers afterwards. Point is, in leu of redrocks comments, I won't be posting our first mini-poll experiment tonight. Maybe tomorrow. Food for thought: let's start with easy ones and build from there. But, consider making easy ones global or else regional but plays out on the global scene—locally.
For instance, Global: (if we stick to Super PAC's) how to diminish money corrupting quasi-democratic systems?
Regional: how to develop & support provential markets without curtailing consumers super-store ease?
I'd go on but I'm trying to wean myself from too much is just too damn much!
Think on these two and other ideas will come to you. Please share. Have fun without me and I hope I get to read some great additions tomorrow!
For instance, Global: (if we stick to Super PAC's) how to diminish money corrupting quasi-democratic systems?
Regional: how to develop & support provential markets without curtailing consumers super-store ease?
I'd go on but I'm trying to wean myself from too much is just too damn much!
Think on these two and other ideas will come to you. Please share. Have fun without me and I hope I get to read some great additions tomorrow!
I know a bias on my part will show through here but I would consider looking at both of these from a similar view point:
Global: How important is it to curb big money influences on international politics or should the focus be more on limiting (or not limiting) big money's influence on domestic politics?
Regional: How important is it to curb big money influences on national politics (e.g. super PAC's in the U.S.) and if that is important what are ways in which that goal can be achieved?
Global: Is international commerce sustainable (and if so, at what level) and how important is it to move toward domestic production and consumption?
Regional: Should local economy be promoted and interstate/intercontinental transport of goods be reduced or should we keep things running as they are?
Helpful... or adding to the confusion?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
I think I may be going back to that as well. Not too sure whether a 'facilitated'/'regulated' discussion would be my cup of tea. I don't want to put a damper but as my feedback, I feel that it seems a bit too fastidious (both in 'organisation' and style) and maybe a more simple approach would appeal to a greater audience?
I understand the principle behind it, but I guess I just prefer to flutter (or indeed stay a bit longer) into threads, as and when the titles/posts are of interest to me or the discussion evolves organically into something I wish to get involved in.
Then again, I may be completely missing the point here and therefore 'proof' that I don't 'belong'!!!!!
As said, I wish you and those who subscribe to this best of luck!
I understand the principle behind it, but I guess I just prefer to flutter (or indeed stay a bit longer) into threads, as and when the titles/posts are of interest to me or the discussion evolves organically into something I wish to get involved in.
Morning. This fun little experiment has veered towards complications. Ugh...so before the sideline gets too crowded, I'm just going to hang one out here and I'm going back to any easy one but expanding it.
Redrock posted about a jubilee going on (where royalists reside?) and it wasn't food & beverage warming his heart but rather community support & participation. So, this is a PJ community, specifically AMT about politics, and this thread is asking for support & participation. Please warm my heart; don't sit it out on the sidelines regardless of what other community or nation you reside in.
Garnering a consensus.
A one week mini-poll experiment intended to help us, the mass, learn how to gain common-ground footholds to thereby require a new move in The Ageless --- Power Dance of Time.
TOPIC FOR DISCUSSION: CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION GUIDELINES.
PARAMETERS SET AND ENFORCED TO ENSURE: THE PEOPLE OF ANY DEMOCRATIC-TYPE PROCESS WHERE ONE VOTE PER ONE INDIVIDUAL ELECTS BY MAJORITY --- TO DECREE THE PEOPLES CHOICE FOR DIRECTIONAL STEERING.
SPECIFIC TO: IDEAS PROVIDED FOR PARAMETER GUIDELINES -- IDEAS PROVIDED TO ENFORCE THEM.
1) SHOULD CORPORATE CONTRIBUTIONS BE VIEWED AS AN INDIVIDUAL CONTRIBUTION?
2) SHOULD MONETARY CONTRIBUTION RESTRICTIONS APPLY?
3) SHOULD POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS BE CENTRALLY FUNNELED, SPECIFIC ONLY TO INDIVIDUAL STATE OR FEDERAL GENERAL, THEREAFTER USED TO FINANCE ALL PUBLIC SERVANT CAMPAIGNS BASED ON PERCENTAGE FORMULA FOR EACH SEAT AND CANDIDATE?
**When referencing a country's process you feel is or is not worthy to emulate, please provide country's name.
And with that, lets see if we can make ourselves proud!
In the spirit of all things PJ; "A distant time a distant place, so whatcha giving?"
Damn! I feel like I becoming a part of the problem and not keeping a hold on being part of the solution.
This a.m. I've had a spot of time so I've been catching up on the threads here. This is what I've noticed:
Fiscal Cliff, learned on MT, modern day socialsim, enviromentalism doesnt work, islamic compounds, evil men, true pacifist, abuse of women and this thread divide or unify, are at LEAST 9 threads that all come back to two results: 1) many threads keep coming back to where we are currently stuck which then 2) causes these threads to get stuck; dissolve into bickering.
In fiscal cliff, I just posted this:
Drifting by the sorm said; "will be psychologically devastating to the establishment's media farce news spin that "everything is okay" and is "gradually getting better".
brian said; "In any case, to attempt to place blame for this situation in simplistic terms by pointing fingers at one political party or the other might be a handy vehicle for venting frustration but certainly doesn't present any viable solutions."
I say; these two statements sum up where we are at. MUST WE CONTINUE TO ALLOW OTHERS TO DIVIDE US?
Everything is NOT okay and we KNOW this! If there's one thing I don't like about this forum or any other is this: We keep talking but little else.
Okay, I'm going back to retrieve divide or unify from the backwoods.
So here I am, back at trying to move us from just talking and bickering onto DOING!
I'm sorry but I'm on a mission. Has anyone here:
1) read the Dancing Partner series?
2) If so, is it something you can get behind?
I simply can't keep hanging out here to end up doing little more than contributing to our stall. WE MUST MOVE BEYOND WHINING! Yes, I've enjoyed my time here but I spend more time here because of this and it's not helping my mission. Maybe this forum isn't ready to tackle my above posted experiment. Maybe it's altogether a bad idea. Hell, maybe most of my ideas are bad but I'm a firm believer that doing life comes with a slew of bright ideas that turn out to be not so bright but that just once and while -- one does and that's a damn site better than never trying.
I'll gonna throw out one more attempt and then I have to get to work. I posted this in another thread (below).
Let us look at Oligarchy versus socialism not from what's wrong or dismal about where we are or the pitfalls of all governed choices but rather: from the angle of where we are and what obtainable direction we want to head towards on our watch. Please let us discuss viable measures that WE can take. Measures as tribal humans or humanity en-masse. This is a political forum. It can be a place to simply learn and then vent, or it can progress into something much more. You guys hold the keys.
had to look up tautological.
"Tautology may refer to: Tautology (rhetoric), using different words to say the same thing, or a series of self-reinforcing statements that cannot be disproved because ..."
so redundant terms used to discribe (in this case) governing systems.
US is cap-democracy. In order to sustain humanity -- production reigns over taxing, (ie..the makings behind all goods & commodities) thereby minimizing the need for high taxation and heavy governance.
Socialistic-democracy. In order to sustain humanity -- taxes reign over production; doled out then to pay for societal needs by large governed body.
If I've got this right then, as we can't deny the fact that we are a communal, consuming species & therefore can't seperate the need for production and governance, then it's just a matter of measure. How much of one dominance over the other. This brings me back to why I stated earlier (passionately believe this & anyone's gonna have a hard time budging me on this) that our system is broken and needs fixed dammit!
We have an imbalance going on. Mr. Olav is right. socialism/democracy could be seen as redundant terms when functioning as intended but: its a matter of degrees.
I see our species at a crossroads. A one step up two steps back juncture. Fundamentally, less is better with regards to governing so long as this species pushes humanity towards a healthier, ever-more individually responsible mass-mindedness adaptation and I think push is the key word here. We don't easily embrace change which is why it's been a one step up two steps back jig. Full blown socialsim simply rings backwards to me; thwarthing our drive to keep adapting in responsible ways so long as our reliance on governing bodies increases.
However, back to that matter of degrees: WE are the ones who've allowed corp power to dimish ours turning our democracy into a semblance of. Coming out to vote now and again just ain't gonna cut it. We are now reading more & more about where our system is headed and the term used is Oligarchy.
DEF: "1.small governing group: a small group of people who together govern a nation or control an organization, often for their own purposes. Oligarchy (from Greek ὀλιγαρχία (oligarkhía) ; from ὀλίγος (olígos), meaning "a few", and ἄρχω (archo), meaning "to rule or to command") 2. a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique.
Hate to be such a broken record here but if it makes you feel any better, I harp on this over & over in Dancing Partners & every forum I visit and will continue to do so until I die or else get plum sick of hearing myself!!
We need to stop whining about corp power and start unifying our own damn power! Otherwise, we have no one to blame but ourselves and we will keep doing that two steps back jig off towards full blown Oligarchy or make a slight diversion and head toward full blown Socialsim. And, before you think Socialsim is the less of two evils just remember -- backwards will always be just that.
Have a fine day but please consider doing me a favor and take a minute to consider where WE are at and where WE want to go. Then, consider who WE is. thanks!
Things begin with talking and exchanging ideas, and it's not a quick (cross)road.
"Change don't come at once, it's a wave"
Can't force that, or people.
I appreciate where you're coming from (though perhaps I come here for different reasons than you; I think we all have our own valid motivations), and while I think *some* things in this country are fucked up, it's not so bleak a landscape. Maybe my head's in the sand, but I just don't feel inclined to mosey down the road of pessimism (not saying you in particular are, but I get that sense here lately).
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,090
Dancepartner, your summation of recent AMT subjects is well put, well thought out. It actually seems to me the bickering and arguing has subsided some here on AMT lately. That might be due to a slight shift lately in ridership aboard the train.
Hedonist, your optimism is appealing. It fits with that saying of Vaclav Havel's- that hope is doing what makes sense no matter how things turn out. I find the balance of looking at things realistically and not falling into pessimism is very difficult. You're probably more balanced that way. I'll keep trying!
My own sense is that we're fucked (that didn't last long )... but maybe we need to be fucked. Maybe we need to fall flat and get up again. We're asleep and at the very least, we need to wake up. We see ourselves as being separate from nature, from the rest of the world. Until we learn how to live as an integral part of the whole which is the world (what is sometimes referred to as Gaia ) we'll continue to seal our fate.
Which doesn't mean we should be consumed with doom and gloom. It doesn't hurt to have some fun, to fool around.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
Hedonist, your optimism is appealing. It fits with that saying of Vaclav Havel's- that hope is doing what makes sense no matter how things turn out. I find the balance of looking at things realistically and not falling into pessimism is very difficult. You're probably more balanced that way. I'll keep trying!
Ha! Thanks, Brian - and I wish optimism was a constant for me. It takes effort sometimes but worth it. I'm pragmatic above all; there's always dark and light, and I try not to get consumed with / blinded by either. Balance, as you mentioned (but ohhh man, sometimes I do teeter...and then totter ).
Oops..too much again. Sorry. Every time I think I'm getting better, I go and fuck it up!
So I AM an eternal optimist. This might be a pitfall -- I don't know, but I yam what I yam. Anyway, no one's ever accused me of being pessimistic so if that's what it looks like, I've given you an inaccurate read.
Optimism is precisely what drives me in attempting to help us awaken. and that is something we MUST do. That's not being anything but realistic. Let me be clear: I DON'T hold fatalistic views as our only hope. If that were the case -- I wouldn't bother to even try.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,090
Oops..too much again. Sorry. Every time I think I'm getting better, I go and fuck it up!
So I AM an eternal optimist. This might be a pitfall -- I don't know, but I yam what I yam. Anyway, no one's ever accused me of being pessimistic so if that's what it looks like, I've given you an inaccurate read.
Optimism is precisely what drives me in attempting to help us awaken. and that is something we MUST do. That's not being anything but realistic. Let me be clear: I DON'T hold fatalistic views as our only hope. If that were the case -- I wouldn't bother to even try.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
Until we learn how to live as an integral part of the whole which is the world (what is sometimes referred to as Gaia ) we'll continue to seal our fate. .
Agree here. I know that Lovelock was ignored/ridiculed/criticized for this theories (hippy-ish/new age-ish?) but what he says makes so much damned sense.
Comments
For instance, Global: (if we stick to Super PAC's) how to diminish money corrupting quasi-democratic systems?
Regional: how to develop & support provential markets without curtailing consumers super-store ease?
I'd go on but I'm trying to wean myself from too much is just too damn much!
Think on these two and other ideas will come to you. Please share. Have fun without me and I hope I get to read some great additions tomorrow!
I know a bias on my part will show through here but I would consider looking at both of these from a similar view point:
Global: How important is it to curb big money influences on international politics or should the focus be more on limiting (or not limiting) big money's influence on domestic politics?
Regional: How important is it to curb big money influences on national politics (e.g. super PAC's in the U.S.) and if that is important what are ways in which that goal can be achieved?
Global: Is international commerce sustainable (and if so, at what level) and how important is it to move toward domestic production and consumption?
Regional: Should local economy be promoted and interstate/intercontinental transport of goods be reduced or should we keep things running as they are?
Helpful... or adding to the confusion?
I think I may be going back to that as well. Not too sure whether a 'facilitated'/'regulated' discussion would be my cup of tea. I don't want to put a damper but as my feedback, I feel that it seems a bit too fastidious (both in 'organisation' and style) and maybe a more simple approach would appeal to a greater audience?
I understand the principle behind it, but I guess I just prefer to flutter (or indeed stay a bit longer) into threads, as and when the titles/posts are of interest to me or the discussion evolves organically into something I wish to get involved in.
Then again, I may be completely missing the point here and therefore 'proof' that I don't 'belong'!!!!!
As said, I wish you and those who subscribe to this best of luck!
Im afraid i've been away too long too -- Not sure where we're at, but if I have to go go back and read a few pages ,I'll try to catch up.
Redrock posted about a jubilee going on (where royalists reside?) and it wasn't food & beverage warming his heart but rather community support & participation. So, this is a PJ community, specifically AMT about politics, and this thread is asking for support & participation. Please warm my heart; don't sit it out on the sidelines regardless of what other community or nation you reside in.
Garnering a consensus.
A one week mini-poll experiment intended to help us, the mass, learn how to gain common-ground footholds to thereby require a new move in The Ageless --- Power Dance of Time.
TOPIC FOR DISCUSSION: CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION GUIDELINES.
PARAMETERS SET AND ENFORCED TO ENSURE: THE PEOPLE OF ANY DEMOCRATIC-TYPE PROCESS WHERE ONE VOTE PER ONE INDIVIDUAL ELECTS BY MAJORITY --- TO DECREE THE PEOPLES CHOICE FOR DIRECTIONAL STEERING.
SPECIFIC TO: IDEAS PROVIDED FOR PARAMETER GUIDELINES -- IDEAS PROVIDED TO ENFORCE THEM.
1) SHOULD CORPORATE CONTRIBUTIONS BE VIEWED AS AN INDIVIDUAL CONTRIBUTION?
2) SHOULD MONETARY CONTRIBUTION RESTRICTIONS APPLY?
3) SHOULD POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS BE CENTRALLY FUNNELED, SPECIFIC ONLY TO INDIVIDUAL STATE OR FEDERAL GENERAL, THEREAFTER USED TO FINANCE ALL PUBLIC SERVANT CAMPAIGNS BASED ON PERCENTAGE FORMULA FOR EACH SEAT AND CANDIDATE?
**When referencing a country's process you feel is or is not worthy to emulate, please provide country's name.
And with that, lets see if we can make ourselves proud!
In the spirit of all things PJ; "A distant time a distant place, so whatcha giving?"
This a.m. I've had a spot of time so I've been catching up on the threads here. This is what I've noticed:
Fiscal Cliff, learned on MT, modern day socialsim, enviromentalism doesnt work, islamic compounds, evil men, true pacifist, abuse of women and this thread divide or unify, are at LEAST 9 threads that all come back to two results: 1) many threads keep coming back to where we are currently stuck which then 2) causes these threads to get stuck; dissolve into bickering.
In fiscal cliff, I just posted this:
Drifting by the sorm said; "will be psychologically devastating to the establishment's media farce news spin that "everything is okay" and is "gradually getting better".
brian said; "In any case, to attempt to place blame for this situation in simplistic terms by pointing fingers at one political party or the other might be a handy vehicle for venting frustration but certainly doesn't present any viable solutions."
I say; these two statements sum up where we are at. MUST WE CONTINUE TO ALLOW OTHERS TO DIVIDE US?
Everything is NOT okay and we KNOW this! If there's one thing I don't like about this forum or any other is this: We keep talking but little else.
Okay, I'm going back to retrieve divide or unify from the backwoods.
So here I am, back at trying to move us from just talking and bickering onto DOING!
I'm sorry but I'm on a mission. Has anyone here:
1) read the Dancing Partner series?
2) If so, is it something you can get behind?
I simply can't keep hanging out here to end up doing little more than contributing to our stall. WE MUST MOVE BEYOND WHINING! Yes, I've enjoyed my time here but I spend more time here because of this and it's not helping my mission. Maybe this forum isn't ready to tackle my above posted experiment. Maybe it's altogether a bad idea. Hell, maybe most of my ideas are bad but I'm a firm believer that doing life comes with a slew of bright ideas that turn out to be not so bright but that just once and while -- one does and that's a damn site better than never trying.
I'll gonna throw out one more attempt and then I have to get to work. I posted this in another thread (below).
Let us look at Oligarchy versus socialism not from what's wrong or dismal about where we are or the pitfalls of all governed choices but rather: from the angle of where we are and what obtainable direction we want to head towards on our watch. Please let us discuss viable measures that WE can take. Measures as tribal humans or humanity en-masse. This is a political forum. It can be a place to simply learn and then vent, or it can progress into something much more. You guys hold the keys.
"Tautology may refer to: Tautology (rhetoric), using different words to say the same thing, or a series of self-reinforcing statements that cannot be disproved because ..."
so redundant terms used to discribe (in this case) governing systems.
US is cap-democracy. In order to sustain humanity -- production reigns over taxing, (ie..the makings behind all goods & commodities) thereby minimizing the need for high taxation and heavy governance.
Socialistic-democracy. In order to sustain humanity -- taxes reign over production; doled out then to pay for societal needs by large governed body.
If I've got this right then, as we can't deny the fact that we are a communal, consuming species & therefore can't seperate the need for production and governance, then it's just a matter of measure. How much of one dominance over the other. This brings me back to why I stated earlier (passionately believe this & anyone's gonna have a hard time budging me on this) that our system is broken and needs fixed dammit!
We have an imbalance going on. Mr. Olav is right. socialism/democracy could be seen as redundant terms when functioning as intended but: its a matter of degrees.
I see our species at a crossroads. A one step up two steps back juncture. Fundamentally, less is better with regards to governing so long as this species pushes humanity towards a healthier, ever-more individually responsible mass-mindedness adaptation and I think push is the key word here. We don't easily embrace change which is why it's been a one step up two steps back jig. Full blown socialsim simply rings backwards to me; thwarthing our drive to keep adapting in responsible ways so long as our reliance on governing bodies increases.
However, back to that matter of degrees: WE are the ones who've allowed corp power to dimish ours turning our democracy into a semblance of. Coming out to vote now and again just ain't gonna cut it. We are now reading more & more about where our system is headed and the term used is Oligarchy.
DEF: "1.small governing group: a small group of people who together govern a nation or control an organization, often for their own purposes. Oligarchy (from Greek ὀλιγαρχία (oligarkhía) ; from ὀλίγος (olígos), meaning "a few", and ἄρχω (archo), meaning "to rule or to command") 2. a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique.
Hate to be such a broken record here but if it makes you feel any better, I harp on this over & over in Dancing Partners & every forum I visit and will continue to do so until I die or else get plum sick of hearing myself!!
We need to stop whining about corp power and start unifying our own damn power! Otherwise, we have no one to blame but ourselves and we will keep doing that two steps back jig off towards full blown Oligarchy or make a slight diversion and head toward full blown Socialsim. And, before you think Socialsim is the less of two evils just remember -- backwards will always be just that.
Have a fine day but please consider doing me a favor and take a minute to consider where WE are at and where WE want to go. Then, consider who WE is. thanks!
"Change don't come at once, it's a wave"
Can't force that, or people.
I appreciate where you're coming from (though perhaps I come here for different reasons than you; I think we all have our own valid motivations), and while I think *some* things in this country are fucked up, it's not so bleak a landscape. Maybe my head's in the sand, but I just don't feel inclined to mosey down the road of pessimism (not saying you in particular are, but I get that sense here lately).
Hedonist, your optimism is appealing. It fits with that saying of Vaclav Havel's- that hope is doing what makes sense no matter how things turn out. I find the balance of looking at things realistically and not falling into pessimism is very difficult. You're probably more balanced that way. I'll keep trying!
My own sense is that we're fucked (that didn't last long
Which doesn't mean we should be consumed with doom and gloom. It doesn't hurt to have some fun, to fool around.
So I AM an eternal optimist. This might be a pitfall -- I don't know, but I yam what I yam. Anyway, no one's ever accused me of being pessimistic so if that's what it looks like, I've given you an inaccurate read.
Optimism is precisely what drives me in attempting to help us awaken. and that is something we MUST do. That's not being anything but realistic. Let me be clear: I DON'T hold fatalistic views as our only hope. If that were the case -- I wouldn't bother to even try.
Good! Keep trying, Dancepartner! That's partly why we're here, right?!
Agree here. I know that Lovelock was ignored/ridiculed/criticized for this theories (hippy-ish/new age-ish?) but what he says makes so much damned sense.