RAPE PREGNANCIES 'SOMETHING THAT GOD INTENDED'

know1

BinFrog wrote:

And my response is: I get your viewpoint. (I'm also guessing there is some sort of religious moral backbone to it, but I could be wrong)

If you find yourself in a situation where you have an oopsy after having sex, then it is your choice to not have an abortion. No-one is saying you have to. I don't want my president or state government telling me what my girlfriend/wife/etc can or cannot do to her body in these situations.

Any argument about abortion is strictly religious or moral/ethical at its core. That's the problem. Pro-choicers aren't going around bombing delivery wards and chastising women to go through with pregnancies. Pro-choicers think about the issue as a choice. Pro-lifers think about this issue as right vs wrong.

The choice argument goes out the window if you believe it is a life and therefore it's murder. We don't allow people to choose to murder other people if they want. I think if we're being honest at all, there is at least a grey area at some point during the pregnancy after which it's definitely a life. I prefer to err on the side that it's a life from the beginning because I am against murder in all circumstances....even the death penalty.

I am a religious person. However, my church has never once told me that abortion is wrong. I believe it's wrong outside of the context of religion. In other words, if I wasn't religious, I still believe that I would be against it.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

know1 wrote:

BinFrog wrote:

know1 wrote:

So if I buy a fancy new car that I can't afford, should I expect the public to offer me financial assistance?

(Cue the comments about comparing a baby to a car)

If you were told you had to buy a fancy new car, even though you knew you couldn't even afford the gas to keep it going, let alone the excise taxes and registration fees, then you're damn right you'd want assistance.

"You are not allowed to say no to owning this car, but once you own it you are on your own. We don't want to help any of you out at that point. You damn leeches"

I love the Republican view:

The life of the baby trumps the life of the mother. We don't want the mother to choose, but once her baby is born we don't want any entities in place to help her out. So she'll end up destitute and her child won't have a chance in life. But hey, that's her fault, right? She shouldn't have had sex. It's a sin outside of marriage.

(And then when my daughter gets pregnant, my political affiliations fall by the wayside: you're damn well right I'll find a way to secretly get her an abortion. I only stand behind my views as they pertain to the general public. I am immune from my political views affecting my private life.)

Outside of rape, who is telling someone they have to procreate?

And personally I believe abortion is wrong in all circumstances, but I'm not saying the government shouldn't help those who really need it.

I find your position very interesting. Let's say my daughter is going to university to pursue a career. She has a serious boyfirend. Then... she is attacked and is brutally raped and impregnated.

You are telling me that if she wishes to abort the pregnancy because she wishes to continue on her career path, life path with her partner, and doesn't want the 'curse' forcefully thrust into her that she is wrong to think this way?

Let me so bold as to suggest you are wrong. Very wrong. Very very very wrong.

One other thing... your 'fancy car' analogy... come on, man.

MotoDC

Cosmo wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I knew a girl, and actually had relations with (before I knew this), who had 6 abortions. Hated contraceptives. Just got abortions if she needed to get one.

...
Wow. That is fierce. It's like if I hated toothpaste so I got root canals instead.

This isn't a funny subject but I lol'd IRL. Did you take that from the Onion or is that a Cosmo original?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

know1 wrote:

So if I buy a fancy new car that I can't afford, should I expect the public to offer me financial assistance?

(Cue the comments about comparing a baby to a car)

well isn't that the american way?

pandora

How many pro choicers here believe in souls as I do?

How many believe in a spirit or something from each of us that lives on?

And when does that soul enter the growing new life?

Could that be at the union, at conception?

And where do these souls come from? In a violent act such as rape do those souls
come from a different place than souls conceived in love?

And if you knew for a fact that the unborn child had a soul that continues on would you be
less likely to favor abortion?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

pandora wrote:

How many pro choicers here believe in souls as I do?

How many believe in a spirit or something from each of us that lives on?

And when does that soul enter the growing new life?

Could that be at the union, at conception?

And where do these souls come from? In a violent act such as rape do those souls
come from a different place than souls conceived in love?

And if you knew for a fact that the unborn child had a soul that continues on would you be
less likely to favor abortion?

Think of how many 'half souls' are wasted by adolescant teens masturbating. Doesn't every sperm cell deserve a fighting chance to fertilize an egg and become a 'whole soul'?

pandora

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

pandora wrote:

How many pro choicers here believe in souls as I do?

How many believe in a spirit or something from each of us that lives on?

And when does that soul enter the growing new life?

Could that be at the union, at conception?

And where do these souls come from? In a violent act such as rape do those souls
come from a different place than souls conceived in love?

And if you knew for a fact that the unborn child had a soul that continues on would you be
less likely to favor abortion?

Think of how many 'half souls' are wasted by adolescant teens masturbating. Doesn't every sperm cell deserve a fighting chance to fertilize an egg and become a 'whole soul'?

It would be nice yes but thats not the plan

MotoDC

PJ_Soul wrote:

I don't consider it a child, so no, I'm not...

It's funny that it took us 14 pages to get back to the core issue that Polaris (I think) alluded to on page fucking 1. This argument goes nowhere because in order to even have a reasonable debate about it, you have to decide one thing:

Either the embryo/fetus is a child (i.e., is a human) or it is not. If it is, it is afforded basic rights like the right to life. This particular right, in almost any current moral or legal code, trumps the pregnant woman's right to an "easier" life, whatever that means. However, if the embryo/fetus is NOT a child, then we can continue with this debate or even enter into the debate about when we should start considering the fetus a human life (e.g., have a conversation around late-pregnancy abortions). I don't see any way around this first step.

Pro-lifers tend to focus on this first step, pro-choicers tend to shy away from it and/or ignore it altogether, as this thread largely demonstrates. Occasionally someone on the pro-choice side will offer an argument about whether the embryo/fetus is a human, as gimme did here. But even that is just a set of pictures intended to sway not by biology or reason, but by inference. Further, let's say we agree that the zygote is not a human, as those pics of dividing cells implies -- are you, gimmie, willing to admit that the fetus that has developed at 4 weeks is a human? The fetus with brain, heart, leg/arm, spinal cord all identifiable? What about at 8 weeks, with a beating heart, sex organs, etc? Probably not, I'd guess, though don't let me put words in your mouth. So given that, where do we end? You'll never get a pro-lifer to agree that a zygote isn't a human if there's no defined end to that argument. I.e., if your argument against the zygote as a human being is that "duh, look at these two cells, how can that be human?", you can't just go changing your argument when the zygote becomes an embryo becomes a fetus and starts looking distinctly human.

Also, side note, was it just me or was that Onion article distinctly un-Onion? It wasn't funny or particularly sarcastic, it quite plainly put all the progressive talking points into "God's" mouth.

JonnyPistachio

BinFrog wrote:

know1 wrote:

Outside of rape, who is telling someone they have to procreate?

And personally I believe abortion is wrong in all circumstances, but I'm not saying the government shouldn't help those who really need it.

Really? That's your argument? You've never had sex for, oh, I don't know...fun? Accidents happen. Someone gets pregnant by accident and your response is "tough shit"?

Its a hilarious analogy. But it works if you accidentally bought the car...while you were naked and horny. Oh yeah, and if the car had a soul.

hedonist

BinFrog wrote:

And my response is: I get your viewpoint. (I'm also guessing there is some sort of religious moral backbone to it, but I could be wrong)

If you find yourself in a situation where you have an oopsy after having sex, then it is your choice to not have an abortion. No-one is saying you have to. I don't want my president or state government telling me what my girlfriend/wife/etc can or cannot do to her body in these situations.

Any argument about abortion is strictly religious or moral/ethical at its core. That's the problem. Pro-choicers aren't going around bombing delivery wards and chastising women to go through with pregnancies. Pro-choicers think about the issue as a choice. Pro-lifers think about this issue as right vs wrong.

I'm pro-choice and also pro-responsibility. Most who oppose abortion for their own reasons aren't radical fucks looking to blow up Planned Parenthood. Most are reasonable people, like know1.

I do think it's about right and wrong as well - and what we perceive as such.

(and, to refer to unintentionally becoming pregnant as an "oopsy" seems...dismissive...of the actions some would choose to take to correct said "oopsy")

My morals play a part in this issue, as they do in most matters important to me. Why is it so surprising that others would as well, as applies to their views? Surely your own sense or right and wrong propels how you feel about choice.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

pandora wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

pandora wrote:

How many pro choicers here believe in souls as I do?

How many believe in a spirit or something from each of us that lives on?

And when does that soul enter the growing new life?

Could that be at the union, at conception?

And where do these souls come from? In a violent act such as rape do those souls
come from a different place than souls conceived in love?

And if you knew for a fact that the unborn child had a soul that continues on would you be
less likely to favor abortion?

Think of how many 'half souls' are wasted by adolescant teens masturbating. Doesn't every sperm cell deserve a fighting chance to fertilize an egg and become a 'whole soul'?

It would be nice yes but thats not the plan

Glad you saw my bad attempt at humour here!

BinFrog

hedonist wrote:

BinFrog wrote:

And my response is: I get your viewpoint. (I'm also guessing there is some sort of religious moral backbone to it, but I could be wrong)

If you find yourself in a situation where you have an oopsy after having sex, then it is your choice to not have an abortion. No-one is saying you have to. I don't want my president or state government telling me what my girlfriend/wife/etc can or cannot do to her body in these situations.

Any argument about abortion is strictly religious or moral/ethical at its core. That's the problem. Pro-choicers aren't going around bombing delivery wards and chastising women to go through with pregnancies. Pro-choicers think about the issue as a choice. Pro-lifers think about this issue as right vs wrong.

I'm pro-choice and also pro-responsibility. Most who oppose abortion for their own reasons aren't radical fucks looking to blow up Planned Parenthood. Most are reasonable people, like know1.

I do think it's about right and wrong as well - and what we perceive as such.

(and, to refer to unintentionally becoming pregnant as an "oopsy" seems...dismissive...of the actions some would choose to take to correct said "oopsy")

My morals play a part in this issue, as they do in most matters important to me. Why is it so surprising that others would as well, as applies to their views? Surely your own sense or right and wrong propels how you feel about choice.

Yes, but my internal sense of right and wrong, completely independent of any religious overtones, should not affect others. Aside from universally accepted rights and wrongs (incest, murder, rape, etc), there are many subjects that we will never all see eye to eye on. I don't see abortion as right OR wrong. I see it as a choice. Pro-lifers generally see it as wrong. That makes it a subjective counterpoint and thus trying to enforce your beliefs, morals, and viewpoints on others. That's where I have an issue. To my point: Know1 believes an embryo on day 1 is a full life. It's kind of hard to argue with that. It's a belief.

And yes: I know Know1 isn't a radical extremist going out and bombing clinics...nor are 99.999% of pro-lifers. I was just making a point. When you move from ideals and beliefs into the area of right vs wrong, therein lies the problem. I would never tell Know1 to have an abortion. I would expect him to show me the same respect. Abortion is a choice, and how you view an embryo is also a choice.

My internal sense of right vs wrong conflicts with how others feel quite often I'm sure. It's called life.

BinFrog

hedonist wrote:

I'm pro-choice and also pro-responsibility.

As am I. I'm not going around forcing abortions on anyone or looking down on people who think differently than me. And I'm not saying people should be out there having promiscuous sex and poking holes in condoms and stocking up on the morning after pill.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

my daughters were human before they were born. I saw them sucking their thumbs, felt them moving around in my wife's belly. that affected me very deeply. my wife and I decided no matter what we'd never get an abortion. I'm not religious. She is. it's just a personal choice we made for various reasons.

I don't know when a fetus becomes a human. I don't think you can justify abortions because nature aborts pregnancies on its own. that's like saying it's ok to cut down the rain forest because sometimes a tree topples from the wind.

I'm pro life in my home.
I'm pro choice outside of my home. In other words, it's no one's call but their own.

hedonist

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

In other words, it's no one's call but their own.

So simple, yet well-put and true. Thank you.

BinFrog

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I'm pro life in my home.
I'm pro choice outside of my home. In other words, it's no one's call but their own.

Great attitude to have.

And yes, as a father of a 2 year old, and with a little one due in March who is now kicking up a storm, by no means do I take abortions lightly. And I would never want my wife to have one. But if she ever needed one for health reasons, I'm glad the option is there.

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Again, pro-choice people are forgetting about the child. Not surprising though.

...
Tell you what... we'll make a deal.
When the Anti-Abortion crew starts caring and providing for the mother and her child that need financial assistance after the fetus is born into this world... then, I, as a Pro-Choice advocate, will support the rights of the unborn.
Deal?

So if I buy a fancy new car that I can't afford, should I expect the public to offer me financial assistance?

(Cue the comments about comparing a baby to a car)

...
When was the last time you were forced to buy a car by the government, the church or your neighbor?
It was your choice to by a car... or not to buy a car, right? And how many people 'accidentally' buy a car? and if they DID... can't they just sell it? Maybe that could be an option... selling unwanted kids... since you can't shove it back up the uterus. You can't, right? Shove the unwanted kid back up the pussy?
...
Also... I'm not a doctor, but, I don't think you are forced to buy a car after someone has sexually violated you. I don't remember that from my high school health class... I must have cut that class that day.

Cosmo

Again... let me re-state my opinion.
Pro-Choice doe NOT mean Pro-Abortion. I means Pre-Choice. You can choose to carry the pregnancy to term as keep and raise the child as your own... you can choose to carry the pregnancy to term and place the child up for adoption... you can choose to terminate the pregnancy. All of those choices are legal options. You or I or the State or the Church may not like them... but, it is not our call to make.
Certainty is not guaranteed in live... shit happens. We need to have options available in order to deal with uncertainty.

cincybearcat

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I'm pro life in my home.
I'm pro choice outside of my home. In other words, it's no one's call but their own.

I get that line of thinking. In reality, though I am anti-abortion, my actions really say I am more like you. I talk about it and discuss it with people, but I haven't really done anything to support my viewpoint, other than voting for some candidates that agree with it. But then again, I've voted for candidates that don't.

I think the reality of the situation hit me a while ago that despite what I think, I do not believe there will be any real change to abortion. And, as a few have mentioned before, let's start working on the root causes to prevent the outcome rather than keep fighting about the outcome. That way, a lot more people end up in a better place and we all get what I think everyone wants...less abortions. Because even if you don't think it's a life, it's still an invasive medical procedure.

Cosmo

cincybearcat wrote:

I get that line of thinking. In reality, though I am anti-abortion, my actions really say I am more like you. I talk about it and discuss it with people, but I haven't really done anything to support my viewpoint, other than voting for some candidates that agree with it. But then again, I've voted for candidates that don't.

I think the reality of the situation hit me a while ago that despite what I think, I do not believe there will be any real change to abortion. And, as a few have mentioned before, let's start working on the root causes to prevent the outcome rather than keep fighting about the outcome. That way, a lot more people end up in a better place and we all get what I think everyone wants...less abortions. Because even if you don't think it's a life, it's still an invasive medical procedure.

...
See... we DO agree.
Maybe we can EDUCATE people on what happens when they fuck. Consequences.
To avoid consequences... responsibility.
Responsibility... condoms, the pill, not fucking, blow jobs... those are the choices that need to be made. Before, not after the fact.