Joseph Stiglitz: 'The American Dream Has Become A Myth'

riotgrl

Jason P wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Jason P wrote:

east germany.

there are more, but that is a start.

My girlfriend's family despises this myth. But, what do they know, they're only German.

This is an America-centric fallacy

Myth?

The collapse of the Soviet Union and the Iron Curtain wasn't influenced by the US? Western Europe wasn't protected for 40 years from Soviet aggression?

I like how the US is 100% at fault for ruining Chile, El salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama with a shadow black-ops program, but doesn't getting any credit on the backside. And since the folly of the Vietnam war, Vietnam has become an important economic ally of the US and is seeing a resurgence in their economy.

I'm willing to give America credit where credit is due. However, in my mind, American motives have to be called into question. Exporting democracy to other nations was not entirely about freedom and liberty for these people - a nice by-product, but our foreign policy goals, especially economic goals, were the main reason for doing everything. And much of our foreign policy revolved around protecting and/or creating economic markets and availability of resources for our use. And Soviet aggression was matched by American aggression in that region, we just rationalized our aggression away by saying that it was all democracy. It's not as simple as stating that we were trying to collapse the Soviets to give them democracy when in actuality, we were trying to create a world that would allow us to be the lone economic superpower.

whygohome

Jason P wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Jason P wrote:

Myth?

The collapse of the Soviet Union and the Iron Curtain wasn't influenced by the US? Western Europe wasn't protected for 40 years from Soviet aggression?

I like how the US is 100% at fault for ruining Chile, El salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama with a shadow black-ops program, but doesn't getting any credit on the backside. And since the folly of the Vietnam war, Vietnam has become an important economic ally of the US and is seeing a resurgence in their economy.

All I said was that it was not the U.S. who was solely responsible; and, I offered a different perspective on it----actual Germans.

The real collapse was just waiting out the communist philosophy to self-implode. Even in Vietnam, within 20 years the communist government collapsed and capitalism took hold. We never needed to send any troops to get what we were supposedly fighting for. Just needed father time.

That is something I can jive with.

catefrances

FattyFatCat wrote:

Ive read some history... I learned that modern day Australia began as a penal colony for the Brits, and that some Australian women cuss like sailors as a result. And then there's the aboriginy thing... yikes.

Cant speak for anyone but myself, but when I say "like we do", the last thing Im thinking about is what some Australian will think.

Stiglitz seems to be capatalizing on a popular theme lately- the "post-American world".

that is true. australia did start off as a penal colony.. several in fact. excepting south australia.. they were a free state.. tho im sure you already knew that considering your vast research on the subject.

and when you read that 'some' history youd have also read im sure that there were free settlers amongst the convicts.. not to mention some of those convicts were political prisoners. youll also have read no doubt that the colonising of australia was a strategic move by the brits to secure a presence in the south pacific both militarily and economically. the fact they had access to people who had no choice in being transported so they could begin to populate such a vast land was just a bonus. we arent ashamed of our convict beginnings. why would we be? without them australia wouldnt be the great country it is today. and youre mistaken about aussie women cussing like sailors because of it. seriously dude youve gotta do better than that to get us riled.. but i understand you were just trying to be bitchy.

whygohome

catefrances wrote:

FattyFatCat wrote:

Ive read some history... I learned that modern day Australia began as a penal colony for the Brits, and that some Australian women cuss like sailors as a result. And then there's the aboriginy thing... yikes.

Cant speak for anyone but myself, but when I say "like we do", the last thing Im thinking about is what some Australian will think.

Stiglitz seems to be capatalizing on a popular theme lately- the "post-American world".

that is true. australia did start off as a penal colony.. several in fact. excepting south australia.. they were a free state.. tho im sure you already knew that considering your vast research on the subject.

and when you read that 'some' history youd have also read im sure that there were free settlers amongst the convicts.. not to mention some of those convicts were political prisoners. youll also have read no doubt that the colonising of australia was a strategic move by the brits to secure a presence in the south pacific both militarily and economically. the fact they had access to people who had no choice in being transported so they could begin to populate such a vast land was just a bonus. we arent ashamed of our convict beginnings. why would we be? without them australia wouldnt be the great country it is today. and youre mistaken about aussie women cussing like sailors because of it. seriously dude youve gotta do better than that to get us riled.. but i understand you were just trying to be bitchy.

What's worse: a penal colony or wiping out an entire civilization (I think that's called genocide)?

catefrances

whygohome wrote:

What's worse: a penal colony or wiping out an entire civilization (I think that's called genocide)?

well the white settlers did try to eliminate the indigenous population here. there was zero understanding of the indigneous peoples connection to their land. all that mattered was there was lots of land and the white settlers needed it, so they took it. classic settler state.

whygohome

catefrances wrote:

whygohome wrote:

What's worse: a penal colony or wiping out an entire civilization (I think that's called genocide)?

well the white settlers did try to eliminate the indigenous population here. there was zero understanding of the indigneous peoples connection to their land. all that mattered was there was lots of land and the white settlers needed it, so they took it. classic settler state.

True. Genocide is an ugly blot on a lot of nation's histories....no matter what our school textbooks tell us....

catefrances

whygohome wrote:

catefrances wrote:

whygohome wrote:

What's worse: a penal colony or wiping out an entire civilization (I think that's called genocide)?

well the white settlers did try to eliminate the indigenous population here. there was zero understanding of the indigneous peoples connection to their land. all that mattered was there was lots of land and the white settlers needed it, so they took it. classic settler state.

True. Genocide is an ugly blot on a lot of nation's histories....no matter what our school textbooks tell us....

and this is why reading 'a little' history is a dangerous thing. reading is a present tense verb and should be continual if we are to understand anything and to learn from past mistakes. tho thats hardly guaranteed.

whygohome

catefrances wrote:

and this is why reading 'a little' history is a dangerous thing. reading is a present tense verb and should be continual if we are to understand anything and to learn from past mistakes. tho thats hardly guaranteed.

Yes, but seeing things only from my limited perspective--(is there any other perspective?)--is soothing to the ego.