they suck! had one this past Saturdayin ATL. Didn't have my meds either. so there's me in a giant city with no meds & not being able to calm down. needless to say I was shakeyes for almost 3 plus hours.
I don't know all that much. I've only had one myself, and it was LSD related so I don't know if you could actually call it a panic attack, or just a symptom of a bad trip, so my personal experience is limited. A friend of mine suffers from them very badly though, and I don't know what he does for them other than take medication. I think it works reasonably well for him, so the only suggestion I can come up with is see a doctor.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
Here's what happened tonight. I'll lay it out. If I fly with someone I know...friend, date whatever...I'm 100% fine. If I travel alone I'm 100% certifiable. I flew today alone to Phoenix. The guy sitting next to me was 6"5" (yes he mentioned his height) and just wouldn't shut up. I don't like being crowded and I really don't like talking to strangers especially on a plane. Two things he was doing for 4.5 hours. The flight was very turbelant which I have gotten used to flying west but it was very bad tonight (or at least in my head it was). They wouldn't turn off the seatbelt light and I had to piss so bad I literally thought at one point I was going to piss myself. FLight lands and it takes FOREVER for the plane to unload. I kept checking my phone and it was exactly 27 minutes for me to get off the plane. I get off the plane and I have the sweats...tight chest...felt like I couldn't breath...the whole shit. Now for the icing on the cake. I also at times get attacks on highways...especially highways I'm not 100% sure of where I am. I get my rental car and punch the address of my hotel into the Nav. 7.2 miles away and all highway (I've been on that highway 100's of times and have even stayed at that hotel four or five times before). I was already a nervous wreck and just the thought of jumping on that 10 lane highway set me into another attack. Mind was racing. Hands were all sweaty and turned bright red. I thought I was going to have a heart attack. As I'm pulling out of the parking garage I puke. Not just a queezy stomach I mean a full on puke. I also got a bloody nose during the puke session (this is a new wrinkle that just happened tonight). It was so bad that I reprogrammed the nav to avoid highways. It took me about 30 minutes to go 7 miles instead of about ten. I had to stop at the first bar I passed just to grab three beers just to chill the fuck out on the drive to the hotel. The whole drive to the hotel all I kept thinking about was how I have to do this 3 more times. From here I am flying to Montana. From there I'm flying to Vegas. From there I'm flying back to Smalbany. I really think I may have a heart attack or be committed by the time this trip is over. :fp:
I'm going with seeing a doctor. Xanax is a great drug. You have to take it when you start to feel the symptoms and it takes about 1/2 hour to kick in. Problem is if you start to freak and your episode that makes you anxious lasts only 1/2 hour then it's moot!
Don't like to be a pill popper but I use them on occasion and they are a life saver for me. I used to think panic and anxiety disorder was bullshit until I started having some issues. Changed my tune real quick
Bad enough for you to start barfing? I would do something about it.
If your against taking meds, meditation may work but it didn't for me. Believe me, I resisted as long as I could.
Thank you fellow 10 clubber for saving my ass....again!!!
Sorry to hear about this, DS. I have a few friends that suffer from panic attacks, and they swear by their meds. It sounds as if it is time to see your doctor. As for the airplane rides, can you just listen to your iPod to avoid talking with other passengers (that's what I do)?
Here's what happened tonight. I'll lay it out. If I fly with someone I know...friend, date whatever...I'm 100% fine. If I travel alone I'm 100% certifiable. I flew today alone to Phoenix. The guy sitting next to me was 6"5" (yes he mentioned his height) and just wouldn't shut up. I don't like being crowded and I really don't like talking to strangers especially on a plane. Two things he was doing for 4.5 hours. The flight was very turbelant which I have gotten used to flying west but it was very bad tonight (or at least in my head it was). They wouldn't turn off the seatbelt light and I had to piss so bad I literally thought at one point I was going to piss myself. FLight lands and it takes FOREVER for the plane to unload. I kept checking my phone and it was exactly 27 minutes for me to get off the plane. I get off the plane and I have the sweats...tight chest...felt like I couldn't breath...the whole shit. Now for the icing on the cake. I also at times get attacks on highways...especially highways I'm not 100% sure of where I am. I get my rental car and punch the address of my hotel into the Nav. 7.2 miles away and all highway (I've been on that highway 100's of times and have even stayed at that hotel four or five times before). I was already a nervous wreck and just the thought of jumping on that 10 lane highway set me into another attack. Mind was racing. Hands were all sweaty and turned bright red. I thought I was going to have a heart attack. As I'm pulling out of the parking garage I puke. Not just a queezy stomach I mean a full on puke. I also got a bloody nose during the puke session (this is a new wrinkle that just happened tonight). It was so bad that I reprogrammed the nav to avoid highways. It took me about 30 minutes to go 7 miles instead of about ten. I had to stop at the first bar I passed just to grab three beers just to chill the fuck out on the drive to the hotel. The whole drive to the hotel all I kept thinking about was how I have to do this 3 more times. From here I am flying to Montana. From there I'm flying to Vegas. From there I'm flying back to Smalbany. I really think I may have a heart attack or be committed by the time this trip is over. :fp:
I have never had a panic attack but reading this I think I could experiencing what you did.
I'm so sorry this happened.
I have traveled a bit alone when I was in my 40's, short flights around 2 hours to see
my friend in FL and home to WI. I really have no desire to travel alone anymore.
I admit this change in me along with many others as I age.
I love to fly, really enjoy it but as I'm getting older I need a friend along side.
I also always have a couple drinks on the plane to relax, even breakfast time
but always with food.
I agree knowing yourself and anticipating is important and if you need meds
go get some, just don't mix alcohol with xanax ... I've fallen and I can't get up
did you see the movie Bridesmaids?
Speaking of which humor is great... a good funny book distracts.
Being honest with your neighbors on the plane too...
please no conversing as I get nervous flying, it could be a fib but you're allowed.
Maybe a little relax time before you pick up the rental ...
talk to someone at home or a trusted friend you may be meeting up with,
take your time.
I have seen that breathing problems very much coincide with panic attacks.
But which comes first?
I have people close to me who get them. I go back to physical as a trigger
in some cases as I see they happen more during certain times of the year
for them.
Allergies, ozone or environmental effects when traveling,
bio rhythms if you are inclined to believe.
Keep a diary its good to know your own body.
Not being able to breath is the scariest thing, shortness of breath.
If one was going to panic that's the time.
You'll be fine on the way home because you are prepared...
going home is so different than starting a journey too ...
there's no place like home and it's even better returning with new memories
Dude that sucks....I travel constantly for work and have for years so I am used to things now. When I first went to college I had long flights for every break from Los Angeles back to VT to see my family. After the first one I realized just how badly I needed a fake ID. My mother used to get very upset with me as I stumbled off from the plane home as the only way I seemed to be able to cope was to get shithammered every flight. (Back when you were allowed to get so plastered on the plane.) I never had to drive anywhere to/from either end of the flight....and it worked. Once I started flying weekly for my job I slowly adapted things until I was OK. [I still dont like flying and have to 'distract myself' with computer, book, video or something like that. The thought of sleeping on a plane is 100% foreign to me. Hundreds and hundreds of flights over 20 years and I have never slept more than 10 minutes on a flight. Too spooked.]
My advice would be to ditch the rental car idea whenever possible and take taxis so that you can get good and faded before getting on the plane (6-7 vodka rocks in the airport bar should set you at ease) and it might help.
Best of luck as you deal with it - never had an actual panic attack but I know how completely uncomfortable I get and the idea of my body flipping out in tandem with my mind in those situations is kind of scary.
I know this sounds cliche, but taking deep, slow breaths usually does the trick. Also distracting yourself works. The best way I find to prevent them is exercise.
Thanks for the great advice. As far as the iPod question...it just didn't work. I had my earphones on and the guy just wouldn't stop talking. I guess I should have been rude to him but I'm actually not good at doing that. Only here and at work I can be rude.
Here's what happened tonight. I'll lay it out. If I fly with someone I know...friend, date whatever...I'm 100% fine. If I travel alone I'm 100% certifiable. I flew today alone to Phoenix. The guy sitting next to me was 6"5" (yes he mentioned his height) and just wouldn't shut up. I don't like being crowded and I really don't like talking to strangers especially on a plane. Two things he was doing for 4.5 hours. The flight was very turbelant which I have gotten used to flying west but it was very bad tonight (or at least in my head it was). They wouldn't turn off the seatbelt light and I had to piss so bad I literally thought at one point I was going to piss myself. FLight lands and it takes FOREVER for the plane to unload. I kept checking my phone and it was exactly 27 minutes for me to get off the plane. I get off the plane and I have the sweats...tight chest...felt like I couldn't breath...the whole shit. Now for the icing on the cake. I also at times get attacks on highways...especially highways I'm not 100% sure of where I am. I get my rental car and punch the address of my hotel into the Nav. 7.2 miles away and all highway (I've been on that highway 100's of times and have even stayed at that hotel four or five times before). I was already a nervous wreck and just the thought of jumping on that 10 lane highway set me into another attack. Mind was racing. Hands were all sweaty and turned bright red. I thought I was going to have a heart attack. As I'm pulling out of the parking garage I puke. Not just a queezy stomach I mean a full on puke. I also got a bloody nose during the puke session (this is a new wrinkle that just happened tonight). It was so bad that I reprogrammed the nav to avoid highways. It took me about 30 minutes to go 7 miles instead of about ten. I had to stop at the first bar I passed just to grab three beers just to chill the fuck out on the drive to the hotel. The whole drive to the hotel all I kept thinking about was how I have to do this 3 more times. From here I am flying to Montana. From there I'm flying to Vegas. From there I'm flying back to Smalbany. I really think I may have a heart attack or be committed by the time this trip is over. :fp:
Scary, dude...
Oh... You can get up and take a leak if the seatbelt sign is on.
Here's what happened tonight. I'll lay it out. If I fly with someone I know...friend, date whatever...I'm 100% fine. If I travel alone I'm 100% certifiable. I flew today alone to Phoenix. The guy sitting next to me was 6"5" (yes he mentioned his height) and just wouldn't shut up. I don't like being crowded and I really don't like talking to strangers especially on a plane. Two things he was doing for 4.5 hours. The flight was very turbelant which I have gotten used to flying west but it was very bad tonight (or at least in my head it was). They wouldn't turn off the seatbelt light and I had to piss so bad I literally thought at one point I was going to piss myself. FLight lands and it takes FOREVER for the plane to unload. I kept checking my phone and it was exactly 27 minutes for me to get off the plane. I get off the plane and I have the sweats...tight chest...felt like I couldn't breath...the whole shit. Now for the icing on the cake. I also at times get attacks on highways...especially highways I'm not 100% sure of where I am. I get my rental car and punch the address of my hotel into the Nav. 7.2 miles away and all highway (I've been on that highway 100's of times and have even stayed at that hotel four or five times before). I was already a nervous wreck and just the thought of jumping on that 10 lane highway set me into another attack. Mind was racing. Hands were all sweaty and turned bright red. I thought I was going to have a heart attack. As I'm pulling out of the parking garage I puke. Not just a queezy stomach I mean a full on puke. I also got a bloody nose during the puke session (this is a new wrinkle that just happened tonight). It was so bad that I reprogrammed the nav to avoid highways. It took me about 30 minutes to go 7 miles instead of about ten. I had to stop at the first bar I passed just to grab three beers just to chill the fuck out on the drive to the hotel. The whole drive to the hotel all I kept thinking about was how I have to do this 3 more times. From here I am flying to Montana. From there I'm flying to Vegas. From there I'm flying back to Smalbany. I really think I may have a heart attack or be committed by the time this trip is over. :fp:
Scary, dude...
Oh... You can get up and take a leak if the seatbelt sign is on.
Trust me I eventuallly did and got yelled at by the flight attendants. It really was a bumpy ride. :fp:
Definitely go see a doctor - my sister started getting panic attacks after she had her son and they prescribed her meds, probably Xanax. It really really helped her, she would have the throwing up issue too like you did. In the meantime for the weekend take some Dramamine on the flights to put you to sleep. Try not to stress out and if you find yourself short of breath, raise your arms over your head.
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Around 2 yrs ago my husband had real bad panic attacks. We literally thought he was dying because he was sweating bad, heart racing..ect. After a couple of non-sleeping nights, add insomia to panic attack= my husband was going insane! We took him to the emergency room after he described the terrible pain in his chest and the Dr. basically laghed at us, said its anxiety and gave him a xanax. follow up with PCP and they were ready to medicate. Execept the side effects listed were the same symtoms he was trying to prevent so started to look at other more natural remedies. Because my husband's panic attacks had a lot to do with the fact he was not sleeping at night we started there. Melatonin is a natural hormone that we have in our brains, helps regulate sleeping patterns by regulating seratonin levels....don't understand the exact science but seratonin has a lot to do with well, everything. Hubby took Melatonin (3g) for a month, once his sleeping patterns returned to normal *whatever that is* his panic attaks/anxiety went away. Now he does not have to take anything. NOT to knock meds...they work for many people, but your panic attacks sound more like they are triggered by specific things....so not sure if this will help. maybe it will if you have trouble sleeping...lol :roll:
Around 2 yrs ago my husband had real bad panic attacks. We literally thought he was dying because he was sweating bad, heart racing..ect. After a couple of non-sleeping nights, add insomia to panic attack= my husband was going insane! We took him to the emergency room after he described the terrible pain in his chest and the Dr. basically laghed at us, said its anxiety and gave him a xanax. follow up with PCP and they were ready to medicate. Execept the side effects listed were the same symtoms he was trying to prevent so started to look at other more natural remedies. Because my husband's panic attacks had a lot to do with the fact he was not sleeping at night we started there. Melatonin is a natural hormone that we have in our brains, helps regulate sleeping patterns by regulating seratonin levels....don't understand the exact science but seratonin has a lot to do with well, everything. Hubby took Melatonin (3g) for a month, once his sleeping patterns returned to normal *whatever that is* his panic attaks/anxiety went away. Now he does not have to take anything. NOT to knock meds...they work for many people, but your panic attacks sound more like they are triggered by specific things....so not sure if this will help. maybe it will if you have trouble sleeping...lol :roll:
I actually do have a lot fo trouble sleeping. Just see how late at night I am here. I tried the melatonin a few years back but, and this is going to sound weird, I actually became addicted to it. Every time I tried to sleep without taking it all I could think about was I need to take some melatonin. :fp: Eventually I would get so worked up I'd take 5 or 6 them and be the most tired person ever at work the next day. :fp:
Around 2 yrs ago my husband had real bad panic attacks. We literally thought he was dying because he was sweating bad, heart racing..ect. After a couple of non-sleeping nights, add insomia to panic attack= my husband was going insane! We took him to the emergency room after he described the terrible pain in his chest and the Dr. basically laghed at us, said its anxiety and gave him a xanax. follow up with PCP and they were ready to medicate. Execept the side effects listed were the same symtoms he was trying to prevent so started to look at other more natural remedies. Because my husband's panic attacks had a lot to do with the fact he was not sleeping at night we started there. Melatonin is a natural hormone that we have in our brains, helps regulate sleeping patterns by regulating seratonin levels....don't understand the exact science but seratonin has a lot to do with well, everything. Hubby took Melatonin (3g) for a month, once his sleeping patterns returned to normal *whatever that is* his panic attaks/anxiety went away. Now he does not have to take anything. NOT to knock meds...they work for many people, but your panic attacks sound more like they are triggered by specific things....so not sure if this will help. maybe it will if you have trouble sleeping...lol :roll:
I actually do have a lot fo trouble sleeping. Just see how late at night I am here. I tried the melatonin a few years back but, and this is going to sound weird, I actually became addicted to it. Every time I tried to sleep without taking it all I could think about was I need to take some melatonin. :fp: Eventually I would get so worked up I'd take 5 or 6 them and be the most tired person ever at work the next day. :fp:
Oh my yes, never works well if you take more than 3g....actually before taking it we were told to read "the melatonin miracle" and the guys who did all sorts of studies with melatonin in the 90's came up with 3g as a good dosage after giving their subjects 25g----which made them fall asleep while walking, step...step...boom on the ground...was a real funny read. Anyway anything more than 3g will have groggy next morning whole day. Hope for the best, mind over matter and all that. Best thing to take---PJ
I know this sounds cliche, but taking deep, slow breaths usually does the trick. Also distracting yourself works. The best way I find to prevent them is exercise.
It might be cliche, but people who find ways to manage their panic attacks often focus on certain breathing techniques that work for them as well as other things. I would recommend looking into alternatives to meds, or if you go with meds, combine them with ways to manage the anxiety skillwise. Comebackgirl knows her stuff, so a meet up with her is a good idea.
I know this sounds cliche, but taking deep, slow breaths usually does the trick. Also distracting yourself works. The best way I find to prevent them is exercise.
It might be cliche, but people who find ways to manage their panic attacks often focus on certain breathing techniques that work for them as well as other things. I would recommend looking into alternatives to meds, or if you go with meds, combine them with ways to manage the anxiety skillwise. Comebackgirl knows her stuff, so a meet up with her is a good idea.
She's actually PM'ed me a lot of helpful advice and info. Some of it I've tried and some of it I will try. I am seriosly thinking about seeing a docotr. I guess there's no shame wiht that.
I know this sounds cliche, but taking deep, slow breaths usually does the trick. Also distracting yourself works. The best way I find to prevent them is exercise.
It might be cliche, but people who find ways to manage their panic attacks often focus on certain breathing techniques that work for them as well as other things. I would recommend looking into alternatives to meds, or if you go with meds, combine them with ways to manage the anxiety skillwise. Comebackgirl knows her stuff, so a meet up with her is a good idea.
She's actually PM'ed me a lot of helpful advice and info. Some of it I've tried and some of it I will try. I am seriosly thinking about seeing a docotr. I guess there's no shame wiht that.
There is no shame in seeing a doctor. NO shame at all!! One of best friends has anxiety and panic attacks, she has tried many of the thing already suggested here...breathing techniques and distractions, and now she is on medicine. The combination of these things has helped her immensely. Hoping you are feeling better. Just think in just a few days you can kick the smoking baby.
There is no shame in seeing a doctor. NO shame at all!! One of best friends has anxiety and panic attacks, she has tried many of the thing already suggested here...breathing techniques and distractions, and now she is on medicine. The combination of these things has helped her immensely. Hoping you are feeling better. Just think in just a few days you can kick the smoking baby.
I actually have it all planned out. I'm going to stomp on his exposed toes becasue of the #mandals first and then kick him in the balls.
There is no shame in seeing a doctor. NO shame at all!! One of best friends has anxiety and panic attacks, she has tried many of the thing already suggested here...breathing techniques and distractions, and now she is on medicine. The combination of these things has helped her immensely. Hoping you are feeling better. Just think in just a few days you can kick the smoking baby.
I actually have it all planned out. I'm going to stomp on his exposed toes becasue of the #mandals first and then kick him in the balls.
:thumbup:
I expect twitter updates, since I can't witness this in person.
There is no shame in seeing a doctor. NO shame at all!! One of best friends has anxiety and panic attacks, she has tried many of the thing already suggested here...breathing techniques and distractions, and now she is on medicine. The combination of these things has helped her immensely. Hoping you are feeling better. Just think in just a few days you can kick the smoking baby.
I actually have it all planned out. I'm going to stomp on his exposed toes becasue of the #mandals first and then kick him in the balls.
:thumbup:
I expect twitter updates, since I can't witness this in person.
#mandals.
He may get a back hand too. There's nothing that says "you're a bitch" more than a good backhand!
As a frequent flyer it's pretty amazing to see how many people have them. On the plane, in airports...really the whole traveling experience seems to trigger them.
Sat next to this guy in the spring coming back to Phoenix from New York. I could tell from the get-go he was having problems. He was center seat too! We were chatting a bit before we took off and he told me that he gets them all the time and he was currently "about to melt down". I thought "Why do I always have to sit by these people?" Drink lady comes by and the guy says to me "do you drink?" I'm like "Yeah". I wasn't planning on drinking as I had a ton of work to do. He goes "I have to have some drinks and I don't drink alone...I'm buying". I think we probably had like 6-7 drinks! It helped for a while. We're over New Mexico and it starts getting really turbulent (common in the southwest for that time of year). He almost lost it!
A month or so ago I was flying from Vegas back to Phoenix and I literally had to hold a girl down and calm her down because she was losing it. She was cute, otherwise I wouldn't have!
I don't get them but I see the people that do and it looks rough!!
DS1119
Posts: 33,497
Comments
One foot in front of the other and one breath at a time.
Some days that's all we can do.
I truly hope you feel better.
Don't like to be a pill popper but I use them on occasion and they are a life saver for me. I used to think panic and anxiety disorder was bullshit until I started having some issues. Changed my tune real quick
Bad enough for you to start barfing? I would do something about it.
If your against taking meds, meditation may work but it didn't for me. Believe me, I resisted as long as I could.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
I'm so sorry this happened.
I have traveled a bit alone when I was in my 40's, short flights around 2 hours to see
my friend in FL and home to WI. I really have no desire to travel alone anymore.
I admit this change in me along with many others as I age.
I love to fly, really enjoy it but as I'm getting older I need a friend along side.
I also always have a couple drinks on the plane to relax, even breakfast time
but always with food.
I agree knowing yourself and anticipating is important and if you need meds
go get some, just don't mix alcohol with xanax ... I've fallen and I can't get up
did you see the movie Bridesmaids?
Speaking of which humor is great... a good funny book distracts.
Being honest with your neighbors on the plane too...
please no conversing as I get nervous flying, it could be a fib but you're allowed.
Maybe a little relax time before you pick up the rental ...
talk to someone at home or a trusted friend you may be meeting up with,
take your time.
I have seen that breathing problems very much coincide with panic attacks.
But which comes first?
I have people close to me who get them. I go back to physical as a trigger
in some cases as I see they happen more during certain times of the year
for them.
Allergies, ozone or environmental effects when traveling,
bio rhythms if you are inclined to believe.
Keep a diary its good to know your own body.
Not being able to breath is the scariest thing, shortness of breath.
If one was going to panic that's the time.
You'll be fine on the way home because you are prepared...
going home is so different than starting a journey too ...
there's no place like home and it's even better returning with new memories
My advice would be to ditch the rental car idea whenever possible and take taxis so that you can get good and faded before getting on the plane (6-7 vodka rocks in the airport bar should set you at ease) and it might help.
Best of luck as you deal with it - never had an actual panic attack but I know how completely uncomfortable I get and the idea of my body flipping out in tandem with my mind in those situations is kind of scary.
Scary, dude...
Oh... You can get up and take a leak if the seatbelt sign is on.
Trust me I eventuallly did and got yelled at by the flight attendants. It really was a bumpy ride. :fp:
Wow. Good ol' Sun Country flight attendants.
:fp:
Yes :(
My husband is a big help - so is Xanax.
The THOUGHT of flying or when one of my boys is sick are my 'triggers'.
Hate panic attacks.
Good luck, David
I actually do have a lot fo trouble sleeping. Just see how late at night I am here.
Oh my yes, never works well if you take more than 3g....actually before taking it we were told to read "the melatonin miracle" and the guys who did all sorts of studies with melatonin in the 90's came up with 3g as a good dosage after giving their subjects 25g----which made them fall asleep while walking, step...step...boom on the ground...was a real funny read. Anyway anything more than 3g will have groggy next morning whole day. Hope for the best, mind over matter and all that. Best thing to take---PJ
It might be cliche, but people who find ways to manage their panic attacks often focus on certain breathing techniques that work for them as well as other things. I would recommend looking into alternatives to meds, or if you go with meds, combine them with ways to manage the anxiety skillwise. Comebackgirl knows her stuff, so a meet up with her is a good idea.
She's actually PM'ed me a lot of helpful advice and info. Some of it I've tried and some of it I will try. I am seriosly thinking about seeing a docotr. I guess there's no shame wiht that.
There is no shame in seeing a doctor. NO shame at all!! One of best friends has anxiety and panic attacks, she has tried many of the thing already suggested here...breathing techniques and distractions, and now she is on medicine. The combination of these things has helped her immensely. Hoping you are feeling better. Just think in just a few days you can kick the smoking baby.
I actually have it all planned out. I'm going to stomp on his exposed toes becasue of the #mandals first and then kick him in the balls.
I expect twitter updates, since I can't witness this in person.
#mandals.
He may get a back hand too. There's nothing that says "you're a bitch" more than a good backhand!
Sat next to this guy in the spring coming back to Phoenix from New York. I could tell from the get-go he was having problems. He was center seat too! We were chatting a bit before we took off and he told me that he gets them all the time and he was currently "about to melt down". I thought "Why do I always have to sit by these people?"
A month or so ago I was flying from Vegas back to Phoenix and I literally had to hold a girl down and calm her down because she was losing it. She was cute, otherwise I wouldn't have!
I don't get them but I see the people that do and it looks rough!!