Will religion one day disappear?

Snakeduck

I guess when the space unicorn that blinked us into existence decides to shake his mane and cause us all to dissolve into dust. Duh...

whygohome

inlet13 wrote:

whygohome wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Explain the beginning.

Seriously, you started a thread on religion and asked when it would go away (not that that could be taken the wrong way or anything :roll: ). I responded - never, because it's somewhat based in a truth. You asked what truth? I said - an origin.

Then you responded with this gibberish above.

So, let me elaborate again:

Religion has an explanation of the origin of time and matter and space. I'm asking for a real alternative that explains how ALL came to be.

Come on , dude. "Gibberish?" Eye-rolling? You're better than that.

Just because religion has an explanation, does not make it truth. That would be, as Gobeavers said, faith. However, some may take it as truth.....but it still does not mean it is Truth

I don't have an explanation. That is way beyond my capabilities. But, I am not going to have faith in a doctrine because it has a creation story.

Yes. Gibberish - you're previous response didn't get at what I was talking about, instead it talked about fish walking or something like that.

I was talking about the origin of time, space, matter, and all that is. I don't think it's faith actually. I think it's math.

You don't get 1 from zero. There was an origin, a catalyst. Call it what you will. If you don't like the term God- call it the force or walking fish for all I care.

Science is an alternative to the creation story. The Truth is rather difficult to discern, and as another poster stated, a belief in a divine being is much easier because the "Truth" is already stated for an individual (in the form of the Bible, Koran, etc.).

Regarding my fish/Eden comment, these are the two more popular and accepted creation stories we have for humankind.

If we are talking about space, matter, time--math--this is an ongoing discussion in the scientific community. And, as more and more theories are posited, does this rule out the existence of God?

Another article I came across the other day: http://www.livescience.com/23251-scienc ... ysics.html

inlet13

whygohome wrote:

Science is an alternative to the creation story. The Truth is rather difficult to discern, and as another poster stated, a belief in a divine being is much easier because the "Truth" is already stated for an individual (in the form of the Bible, Koran, etc.).

Regarding my fish/Eden comment, these are the two more popular and accepted creation stories we have for humankind.

If we are talking about space, matter, time--math--this is an ongoing discussion in the scientific community. And, as more and more theories are posited, does this rule out the existence of God?

Another article I came across the other day: http://www.livescience.com/23251-scienc ... ysics.html

But, science does not really provide a logical alternative to what I was saying. It has hug gaping holes.

Simpletons try to push all discussions on this back to Genesis when discussing this. But, we all know that religion is much broader than that. Let's take the Bible out of it, because that doesn't represent "religion" as whole. So, let's talk of religion as a belief in a higher power. An origin of sorts. The origin of all that is.

Typically, the only response by science to this is the big bang. Which is weak. It has holes. How did it occur? What "existed" prior to it to cause it? Etc. Elements had to exist prior to "bang"... what were these? Who or what created these? These are the holes. Because if something existed prior, then it's not an origin of all that is.

The best attempt by science it to try to say that pre-big bang space, matter, etc was infinite. Problem is, once again, that doesn't add up. There has to have been a cause to create time. Then we can create that back to creation of space. To create all that is. An origin.

Science hasn't and won't ever find an origin.

A spiritual force is the only logical answer to the origin. It doesn't take faith at all. It takes math.

EdsonNascimento

I actually think the opposite - it won't go away until we explain what happens after DEATH (as opposed to our origins).

I don't think folks sit up nights caressing their rosary trying to decipher the origins of life. They cling to their version of the origin of life because it helps ease the burden of pondering their own death. Religion provides something that science never will - what happens after death? Now, we say nothing. But, isn't that a scary thought? Thus, the rise of religion.

Suicide bombers aren't pondering the origins of life. They are trying to get a better spot in the after life. Which, of course, is silly. But, again - it's based on DEATH not LIFE (or how could you rationalize killing another human being in the name of such?).

What's the basis of religious tenents? Do good, so you'll go to heaven. And, I'm going to save you by making you believe my religion (quite frankly is our current Presedential election that far from this theory?).

So, as long as humans are fearful of death and what happens after, religion will exist. So, therefore, it is never going away.

Now, a better question might be - when will folks stop using it as an excuse to kill others. And the answer to that is the same - never. More people have been killed in the name of a god than for any other reason. But, that doesn't make religion bad. It makes the folks using religion as an excuse bad.

whygohome

EdsonNascimento wrote:

I actually think the opposite - it won't go away until we explain what happens after DEATH (as opposed to our origins).

I don't think folks sit up nights caressing their rosary trying to decipher the origins of life. They cling to their version of the origin of life because it helps ease the burden of pondering their own death. Religion provides something that science never will - what happens after death? Now, we say nothing. But, isn't that a scary thought? Thus, the rise of religion.

A good reversal. As a non-believer, an agnostic, I'm scared shitless of death, and fear is a driving force in religion: an explanation to that which cannot be explained by human inquiry. I would love to believe that after my 80, 90 years I get to go to paradise, to see loved ones, to see my labrador retrievers, but I simply cannot believe it, despite its appeal and its ability to comfort.

Quite the quandary.............

BinauralJam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v27TRan1SBI

I'm hoping for something like this, but i'm not in any rush

inlet13

EdsonNascimento wrote:

I actually think the opposite - it won't go away until we explain what happens after DEATH (as opposed to our origins).

I don't think folks sit up nights caressing their rosary trying to decipher the origins of life. They cling to their version of the origin of life because it helps ease the burden of pondering their own death. Religion provides something that science never will - what happens after death? Now, we say nothing. But, isn't that a scary thought? Thus, the rise of religion.

Suicide bombers aren't pondering the origins of life. They are trying to get a better spot in the after life. Which, of course, is silly. But, again - it's based on DEATH not LIFE (or how could you rationalize killing another human being in the name of such?).

What's the basis of religious tenents? Do good, so you'll go to heaven. And, I'm going to save you by making you believe my religion (quite frankly is our current Presedential election that far from this theory?).

So, as long as humans are fearful of death and what happens after, religion will exist. So, therefore, it is never going away.

Now, a better question might be - when will folks stop using it as an excuse to kill others. And the answer to that is the same - never. More people have been killed in the name of a god than for any other reason. But, that doesn't make religion bad. It makes the folks using religion as an excuse bad.

Good point. I think the origin and the end matter to the debate. But, your point is well taken and true.

inlet13

whygohome wrote:

EdsonNascimento wrote:

I actually think the opposite - it won't go away until we explain what happens after DEATH (as opposed to our origins).

I don't think folks sit up nights caressing their rosary trying to decipher the origins of life. They cling to their version of the origin of life because it helps ease the burden of pondering their own death. Religion provides something that science never will - what happens after death? Now, we say nothing. But, isn't that a scary thought? Thus, the rise of religion.

A good reversal. As a non-believer, an agnostic, I'm scared shitless of death, and fear is a driving force in religion: an explanation to that which cannot be explained by human inquiry. I would love to believe that after my 80, 90 years I get to go to paradise, to see loved ones, to see my labrador retrievers, but I simply cannot believe it, despite its appeal and its ability to comfort.

Quite the quandary.............

What if it's not that simple. I think half the problem of non-believers and ultra believers (think evangelicals) are their simplistic notions of the afterlife.

What if we are reunited with not just loved ones but with all that is. In other words, it's not in the fairytale simplistic type reunion? My viewpoint on this is simple:

-Time exists here on earth
-We can't fathom the timeless
-On earth we long to be a part of something bigger, our entire lives in time are spent longing for more
-God (or whatever you want to call it, she, he) is both time and non-time, all that is
-when we die we enter non-time and are reunited with God (or everything) - the whole. We were always there, in fact.

whygohome

inlet13 wrote:

But, science does not really provide a logical alternative to what I was saying. It has hug gaping holes.

Simpletons try to push all discussions on this back to Genesis when discussing this. But, we all know that religion is much broader than that. Let's take the Bible out of it, because that doesn't represent "religion" as whole. So, let's talk of religion as a belief in a higher power. An origin of sorts. The origin of all that is.

Typically, the only response by science to this is the big bang. Which is weak. It has holes. How did it occur? What "existed" prior to it to cause it? Etc. Elements had to exist prior to "bang"... what were these? Who or what created these? These are the holes. Because if something existed prior, then it's not an origin of all that is.

The best attempt by science it to try to say that pre-big bang space, matter, etc was infinite. Problem is, once again, that doesn't add up. There has to have been a cause to create time. Then we can create that back to creation of space. To create all that is. An origin.

Science hasn't and won't ever find an origin.

A spiritual force is the only logical answer to the origin. It doesn't take faith at all. It takes math.

Scientific inquiry does present an alternative, though an incomplete one, an ongoing one, and this is enough for non-believers.
Will the "holes" be filled. Not in our lifetime, maybe not ever, and therefore we are inclined and resigned to believe in a spiritual force. It is, in my opinion, not the only logical answer; it may be at the moment, but that would assume scientific inquiry has used up all its weapons.
Science is, at least, working toward an answer, whereas religion has had an answer all along. I can't agree that science will not be able to find an explanation. The world, and science, will go one for centuries long after I am dead.

even flow - question mark

EdsonNascimento wrote:

I actually think the opposite - it won't go away until we explain what happens after DEATH (as opposed to our origins).

I don't think folks sit up nights caressing their rosary trying to decipher the origins of life. They cling to their version of the origin of life because it helps ease the burden of pondering their own death. Religion provides something that science never will - what happens after death? Now, we say nothing. But, isn't that a scary thought? Thus, the rise of religion.

Suicide bombers aren't pondering the origins of life. They are trying to get a better spot in the after life. Which, of course, is silly. But, again - it's based on DEATH not LIFE (or how could you rationalize killing another human being in the name of such?).

What's the basis of religious tenents? Do good, so you'll go to heaven. And, I'm going to save you by making you believe my religion (quite frankly is our current Presedential election that far from this theory?).

So, as long as humans are fearful of death and what happens after, religion will exist. So, therefore, it is never going away.

Now, a better question might be - when will folks stop using it as an excuse to kill others. And the answer to that is the same - never. More people have been killed in the name of a god than for any other reason. But, that doesn't make religion bad. It makes the folks using religion as an excuse bad.

Nice take on things. But for me it becomes dark, just like before you were born. I mean if a religious person believes that you came from your mom and dad (which you did), then why bother about the death part. It is a part of the natural cycle of life. To me it is a bit of a stretch to say that god granted you life but it didn't snap its fingers that it had mom and dad do the work. Add to that the religious person who has several miscarriages and then ponders why god dosen't want her/them to have a child. Just dosen't add up. Because to get to heaven you must have had a glimpse of it when god sent you down to earth. Ah yeah my predays in heaven.

JonnyPistachio

inlet13 wrote:

Religion has an explanation of the origin of time and matter and space. I'm asking for a real alternative that explains how ALL came to be.

Does it? So religion describes how God has either
A.) been around for infinite time
B.) Explains how God was created?

When you ask "how it ALL came to be?" does that include God? How they (all) came to be?

BinauralJam

inlet13 wrote:

What if it's not that simple. I think half the problem of non-believers and ultra believers (think evangelicals) are their simplistic notions of the afterlife.

What if we are reunited with not just loved ones but with all that is. In other words, it's not in the fairytale simplistic type reunion? My viewpoint on this is simple:

-Time exists here on earth
-We can't fathom the timeless
-On earth we long to be a part of something bigger, our entire lives in time are spent longing for more
-God (or whatever you want to call it, she, he) is both time and non-time, all that is
-when we die we enter non-time and are reunited with God (or everything) - the whole. We were always there, in fact.

I don't mean to attack your beliefs Inlet, but time doesn't exist, it's an illusion. Most scientists refer to it as Space-Time now because they are having a hard time letting go of the illusion. There is simply existence, which started with the big bang and space expanding. If something exist, you can prove it by manipulating it, you cannot manipulate time, because it's just a unit of measurement. But you can't effect it.

inlet13

whygohome wrote:

Scientific inquiry does present an alternative, though an incomplete one, an ongoing one, and this is enough for non-believers.
Will the "holes" be filled. Not in our lifetime, maybe not ever, and therefore we are inclined and resigned to believe in a spiritual force. It is, in my opinion, not the only logical answer; it may be at the moment, but that would assume scientific inquiry has used up all its weapons.
Science is, at least, working toward an answer, whereas religion has had an answer all along. I can't agree that science will not be able to find an explanation. The world, and science, will go one for centuries long after I am dead.

What they are working on is interesting and somewhat pointless at once. Don't get me wrong, science has a great role in pretty much everything. But, trying to find the origin is a like trying to find the point at which a a rainbow hits the ground - you know what I mean?

inlet13

JonnyPistachio wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Religion has an explanation of the origin of time and matter and space. I'm asking for a real alternative that explains how ALL came to be.

Does it? So religion describes how God has either
A.) been around for infinite time
B.) Explains how God was created?

When you ask "how it ALL came to be?" does that include God? How they (all) came to be?

Religion explains an origin and the endings.

I'd say God is infinite and in-time - so incomprehensible - he, she, it - is all that is and ever was.

Personally, I think this is what Jesus was trying to say. He was killed for it.

inlet13

BinauralJam wrote:

I don't mean to attack your beliefs Inlet, but time doesn't exist, it's an illusion. Most scientists refer to it as Space-Time now because they are having a hard time letting go of the illusion. There is simply existence, which started with the big bang and space expanding. If something exist, you can prove it by manipulating it, you cannot manipulate time, because it's just a unit of measurement. But you can't effect it.

I'd argue it does exist and think most would back me. If time doesn't exist life doesn't exist.

BinauralJam

inlet13 wrote:

BinauralJam wrote:

I don't mean to attack your beliefs Inlet, but time doesn't exist, it's an illusion. Most scientists refer to it as Space-Time now because they are having a hard time letting go of the illusion. There is simply existence, which started with the big bang and space expanding. If something exist, you can prove it by manipulating it, you cannot manipulate time, because it's just a unit of measurement. But you can't effect it.

I'd argue it does exist and think most would back me. If time doesn't exist life doesn't exist.

Eh, o.k. i tried.

JonnyPistachio

inlet13 wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Religion has an explanation of the origin of time and matter and space. I'm asking for a real alternative that explains how ALL came to be.

Does it? So religion describes how God has either
A.) been around for infinite time
B.) Explains how God was created?

When you ask "how it ALL came to be?" does that include God? How they (all) came to be?

Religion explains an origin and the endings.

I'd say God is infinite and in-time - so incomprehensible - he, she, it - is all that is and ever was.

Personally, I think this is what Jesus was trying to say. He was killed for it.

If God is infinite, why cant time be infinite as well? Will time ever stop going into the future? There's no way to say it doesnt go into an infinite past, is there? fuck, now my head hurts.

And EdsonN, your post is awesome.

whygohome

inlet13 wrote:

whygohome wrote:

EdsonNascimento wrote:

I actually think the opposite - it won't go away until we explain what happens after DEATH (as opposed to our origins).

I don't think folks sit up nights caressing their rosary trying to decipher the origins of life. They cling to their version of the origin of life because it helps ease the burden of pondering their own death. Religion provides something that science never will - what happens after death? Now, we say nothing. But, isn't that a scary thought? Thus, the rise of religion.

A good reversal. As a non-believer, an agnostic, I'm scared shitless of death, and fear is a driving force in religion: an explanation to that which cannot be explained by human inquiry. I would love to believe that after my 80, 90 years I get to go to paradise, to see loved ones, to see my labrador retrievers, but I simply cannot believe it, despite its appeal and its ability to comfort.

Quite the quandary.............

What if it's not that simple. I think half the problem of non-believers and ultra believers (think evangelicals) are their simplistic notions of the afterlife.

What if we are reunited with not just loved ones but with all that is. In other words, it's not in the fairytale simplistic type reunion? My viewpoint on this is simple:

-Time exists here on earth
-We can't fathom the timeless
-On earth we long to be a part of something bigger, our entire lives in time are spent longing for more
-God (or whatever you want to call it, she, he) is both time and non-time, all that is
-when we die we enter non-time and are reunited with God (or everything) - the whole. We were always there, in fact.

Yes, it's not as simple as seeing my dogs again.

Those are good views, but they can still rest in the realm of faith. Not to digress in a Jungian Collective Unconscious tangent, but the idea a reunion with "God as everything," or simply everything/the whole, posits the idea of a connection to something larger. (Isn't this the debate in I Heart Huckabees? )
I just watched a documentary on the brain. I watched two scientists cut a brain open. The idea that a muscle contains all that man is capable of, all that man has done, drove me to pack a bowl, pick up the six string, and disappear; i.e., that simple point of knowledge that everything we are, in a metaphysical sense, comes from this muscle points to the idea that there has to be something else that we are simply unable to fathom.
This is once again where faith comes into play. I still am inclined to believe that when I die, I will lay in the ground and rot. This I can see; this is tangible.


"But, trying to find the origin is a like trying to find the point at which a a rainbow hits the ground - you know what I mean?"
I'm with you; but, what if the universe expands in a circular pattern? What if the rainbow has a bottom half that we are unable to see?

All of this is beyond our realm of understanding WITHOUT religion. Very interesting

Another great tune:
"The universe is shaped exactly like the earth, if you go straight long enough, you end up where you where"

PJFAN13

I credit that eight years of grammar school with nourishing me in a direction where I could trust myself and trust my instincts. They gave me the tools to reject my faith. They taught me to question and think for myself and to believe in my instincts to such an extent that I just said, 'This is a wonderful fairy tale they have going here, but it's not for me.

I've begun worshipping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.

I want you to know, when it comes to believing in god- I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is FUCKED-UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago.

I noticed that of all the prayers I used to offer to god, and all the prayers that I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answer at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want. Half the time I don't. Same as god 50/50. Same as the four leaf clover, the horse shoe, the rabbit's foot, and the wishing well. Same as the mojo man. Same as the voodoo lady who tells your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles. It's all the same; 50/50. So just pick your superstitions, sit back, make a wish and enjoy yourself. And for those of you that look to the Bible for it's literary qualities and moral lessons; I got a couple other stories I might like to recommend for you. You might enjoy The Three Little Pigs. That's a good one. It has a nice happy ending. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood. Although it does have that one x-rated part where the Big-Bad-Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I liked best: ...and all the king's horses, and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no god. None. Not one. Never was. No god.

Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear your shoes

RIP George Carlin

hedonist

I adore(d) George...and, I really like the contributions to this thread.

I've also got a feeling I'm going to have to re-read parts; not that they don't necessarily make sense, but it'll take a bit to wrap my mind around some of these thoughts, and theories.

Thanks, all