What if it's not that simple. I think half the problem of non-believers and ultra believers (think evangelicals) are their simplistic notions of the afterlife.
What if we are reunited with not just loved ones but with all that is. In other words, it's not in the fairytale simplistic type reunion? My viewpoint on this is simple:
-Time exists here on earth
-We can't fathom the timeless
-On earth we long to be a part of something bigger, our entire lives in time are spent longing for more
-God (or whatever you want to call it, she, he) is both time and non-time, all that is
-when we die we enter non-time and are reunited with God (or everything) - the whole. We were always there, in fact.
I don't mean to attack your beliefs Inlet, but time doesn't exist, it's an illusion. Most scientists refer to it as Space-Time now because they are having a hard time letting go of the illusion. There is simply existence, which started with the big bang and space expanding. If something exist, you can prove it by manipulating it, you cannot manipulate time, because it's just a unit of measurement. But you can't effect it.
Scientific inquiry does present an alternative, though an incomplete one, an ongoing one, and this is enough for non-believers.
Will the "holes" be filled. Not in our lifetime, maybe not ever, and therefore we are inclined and resigned to believe in a spiritual force. It is, in my opinion, not the only logical answer; it may be at the moment, but that would assume scientific inquiry has used up all its weapons.
Science is, at least, working toward an answer, whereas religion has had an answer all along. I can't agree that science will not be able to find an explanation. The world, and science, will go one for centuries long after I am dead.
What they are working on is interesting and somewhat pointless at once. Don't get me wrong, science has a great role in pretty much everything. But, trying to find the origin is a like trying to find the point at which a a rainbow hits the ground - you know what I mean?
I don't mean to attack your beliefs Inlet, but time doesn't exist, it's an illusion. Most scientists refer to it as Space-Time now because they are having a hard time letting go of the illusion. There is simply existence, which started with the big bang and space expanding. If something exist, you can prove it by manipulating it, you cannot manipulate time, because it's just a unit of measurement. But you can't effect it.
I'd argue it does exist and think most would back me. If time doesn't exist life doesn't exist.
I don't mean to attack your beliefs Inlet, but time doesn't exist, it's an illusion. Most scientists refer to it as Space-Time now because they are having a hard time letting go of the illusion. There is simply existence, which started with the big bang and space expanding. If something exist, you can prove it by manipulating it, you cannot manipulate time, because it's just a unit of measurement. But you can't effect it.
I'd argue it does exist and think most would back me. If time doesn't exist life doesn't exist.
Religion has an explanation of the origin of time and matter and space. I'm asking for a real alternative that explains how ALL came to be.
Does it? So religion describes how God has either
A.) been around for infinite time
B.) Explains how God was created?
When you ask "how it ALL came to be?" does that include God? How they (all) came to be?
Religion explains an origin and the endings.
I'd say God is infinite and in-time - so incomprehensible - he, she, it - is all that is and ever was.
Personally, I think this is what Jesus was trying to say. He was killed for it.
If God is infinite, why cant time be infinite as well? Will time ever stop going into the future? There's no way to say it doesnt go into an infinite past, is there? fuck, now my head hurts.
I actually think the opposite - it won't go away until we explain what happens after DEATH (as opposed to our origins).
I don't think folks sit up nights caressing their rosary trying to decipher the origins of life. They cling to their version of the origin of life because it helps ease the burden of pondering their own death. Religion provides something that science never will - what happens after death? Now, we say nothing. But, isn't that a scary thought? Thus, the rise of religion.
A good reversal. As a non-believer, an agnostic, I'm scared shitless of death, and fear is a driving force in religion: an explanation to that which cannot be explained by human inquiry. I would love to believe that after my 80, 90 years I get to go to paradise, to see loved ones, to see my labrador retrievers, but I simply cannot believe it, despite its appeal and its ability to comfort.
Quite the quandary.............
What if it's not that simple. I think half the problem of non-believers and ultra believers (think evangelicals) are their simplistic notions of the afterlife.
What if we are reunited with not just loved ones but with all that is. In other words, it's not in the fairytale simplistic type reunion? My viewpoint on this is simple:
-Time exists here on earth
-We can't fathom the timeless
-On earth we long to be a part of something bigger, our entire lives in time are spent longing for more
-God (or whatever you want to call it, she, he) is both time and non-time, all that is
-when we die we enter non-time and are reunited with God (or everything) - the whole. We were always there, in fact.
Yes, it's not as simple as seeing my dogs again.
Those are good views, but they can still rest in the realm of faith. Not to digress in a Jungian Collective Unconscious tangent, but the idea a reunion with "God as everything," or simply everything/the whole, posits the idea of a connection to something larger. (Isn't this the debate in I Heart Huckabees? )
I just watched a documentary on the brain. I watched two scientists cut a brain open. The idea that a muscle contains all that man is capable of, all that man has done, drove me to pack a bowl, pick up the six string, and disappear; i.e., that simple point of knowledge that everything we are, in a metaphysical sense, comes from this muscle points to the idea that there has to be something else that we are simply unable to fathom.
This is once again where faith comes into play. I still am inclined to believe that when I die, I will lay in the ground and rot. This I can see; this is tangible.
"But, trying to find the origin is a like trying to find the point at which a a rainbow hits the ground - you know what I mean?"
I'm with you; but, what if the universe expands in a circular pattern? What if the rainbow has a bottom half that we are unable to see?
All of this is beyond our realm of understanding WITHOUT religion. Very interesting
Another great tune:
"The universe is shaped exactly like the earth, if you go straight long enough, you end up where you where"
I credit that eight years of grammar school with nourishing me in a direction where I could trust myself and trust my instincts. They gave me the tools to reject my faith. They taught me to question and think for myself and to believe in my instincts to such an extent that I just said, 'This is a wonderful fairy tale they have going here, but it's not for me.
I've begun worshipping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.
I want you to know, when it comes to believing in god- I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is FUCKED-UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago.
I noticed that of all the prayers I used to offer to god, and all the prayers that I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answer at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want. Half the time I don't. Same as god 50/50. Same as the four leaf clover, the horse shoe, the rabbit's foot, and the wishing well. Same as the mojo man. Same as the voodoo lady who tells your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles. It's all the same; 50/50. So just pick your superstitions, sit back, make a wish and enjoy yourself. And for those of you that look to the Bible for it's literary qualities and moral lessons; I got a couple other stories I might like to recommend for you. You might enjoy The Three Little Pigs. That's a good one. It has a nice happy ending. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood. Although it does have that one x-rated part where the Big-Bad-Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I liked best: ...and all the king's horses, and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no god. None. Not one. Never was. No god.
Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear your shoes
I adore(d) George...and, I really like the contributions to this thread.
I've also got a feeling I'm going to have to re-read parts; not that they don't necessarily make sense, but it'll take a bit to wrap my mind around some of these thoughts, and theories.
o.k....anger aside.
no it will not,believe it or not Jesus is real and so is God..beliefe in God in one for another goes back thousands of years,people that never heard of "God" knew that there was someone special that looked over them or brought the rain or just life in general and here's the shocker....you ready ? ..millions and millions still do so I'm positive that people will believe right up to the last days of earth...and some of us will be with him
o.k....anger aside.
no it will not,believe it or not Jesus is real and so is God..beliefe in God in one for another goes back thousands of years,people that never heard of "God" knew that there was someone special that looked over them or brought the rain or just life in general and here's the shocker....you ready ? ..millions and millions still do so I'm positive that people will believe right up to the last days of earth...and some of us will be with him
Godfather.
Well, then, I hope Satan is a Pearl Jam fan.....though I think I may be subjected to Last Kiss and Backspacer played on repeat :(
In all seriousness, and no more Carlin references - the fundamental answer to the original question (which has had me thinking hard for hours - thanks PJ fans!) is this: Religion will ALWAYS be there to help people cope with uncertainties, pain and life in general. Moreover, Mormons & Christians tend to have many more kids than do atheists, so I doubt religion will ever truly disappear, at least not in the near future. That being said, I'll take that response back once someone shows me the answer to everything
Sadly, in particular as evidenced on these boards, until the tolerance for others opinions and belief structures is fully embraced by ALL, its hard to imagine. When we respect each other (and only then) it will eventually lead to the road of speaking about science and athiest views...until then
What would be nice is if we can get rid of religion in the government 100%...
o.k....anger aside.
no it will not,believe it or not Jesus is real and so is God..beliefe in God in one for another goes back thousands of years,people that never heard of "God" knew that there was someone special that looked over them or brought the rain or just life in general and here's the shocker....you ready ? ..millions and millions still do so I'm positive that people will believe right up to the last days of earth...and some of us will be with him
Godfather.
Well, then, I hope Satan is a Pearl Jam fan.....though I think I may be subjected to Last Kiss and Backspacer played on repeat :(
I am in no way perfect (duhhh) but I can tell you....it's not too late
its an interesting topic. Im a huge fan of Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Dan Dennett and Hitch, and have watched countless hours of them talk about these same issues, and think they all are incredibly brilliant. But I disagree with their notions that belief in God is bad. I think religion is entrenched in society. And then you have the split between spirituality and religion. Religion definitely has MAJOR issues and problems, but I dont agree with Harris, Dawkins and the like that it is the MAIN problem.
My take... I believe religion will exist as long as it remains a viable tool for a few men in power to exert authority over many.
I'm not talking about God, here... I'm speaking of the various religions that claim to know what God's intentions are. Religion and God are not one in the same. The religions were all created by Man to explain the unknown and bundle them all under the God concept.
The truth is... we don't know the origins of the universe... we are learning and have some knowledge of it. As for God... we don't know squat about Him(/Her/It) so we make Him in our image and pour all of our emotions into Him and turn Him into this vengeful... spiteful... judgemental being in order to keep us in line.
Truth is.. we should be good people... not for some kind of reward after this life. Maybe, we should be good... just because.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
one day the distinction between "science" and "religion" will disappear, sure.
Then we will have the "true religion".
ive never understood why at least spirituality and science couldnt coexist. Its not like evolution couldnt have been an act of God. One can believe in the tenets of science, of mutations, and genes, and cells, and evolution and still believe in God. Even the big bang could be understood as what it was in the scientific sense, and still believe that the originator, or the person or thing that ordered such a collision is God. Even the thing that continually is talked about, how old the earth is, could be understood in both disciplines simotaneously.
My take... I believe religion will exist as long as it remains a viable tool for a few men in power to exert authority over many.
I'm not talking about God, here... I'm speaking of the various religions that claim to know what God's intentions are. Religion and God are not one in the same. The religions were all created by Man to explain the unknown and bundle them all under the God concept.
The truth is... we don't know the origins of the universe... we are learning and have some knowledge of it. As for God... we don't know squat about Him(/Her/It) so we make Him in our image and pour all of our emotions into Him and turn Him into this vengeful... spiteful... judgemental being in order to keep us in line.
Truth is.. we should be good people... not for some kind of reward after this life. Maybe, we should be good... just because.
one day the distinction between "science" and "religion" will disappear, sure.
Then we will have the "true religion".
...
In a nutshell... that is it.
I believe life is a journey of discovery. Where Science is a search for answers, religions claim to have all of the answers. To seek God is a journey of discovery... not taking the words of men written 2000 or 5000 years ago as the absolute truth. Where science feeds our logical thoughts, religion should be a journey to fill our spirit. They don't have to be at odds with each other... both can live within us.
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
and also i'd add, the OP seems to distance religion and Greek and ancient beliefs and religion. I'd say they are pretty similar. In that they were and are beliefs people organize their lifes around. People dont believe in Zeus anymore, you are right, but they believe in Buddha, Jesus, Allah, and personally, I think its all related. Just different names for God. Zeus symbolized the same thing for people that Allah does now. Its just a different time and name.
And seeing as religion hasnt disappeared, that after people stopped believing in Zeus, that people continued to believe in SOMETHING of various names, that this is in fact probably proof religion wont die out.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,411
My take... I believe religion will exist as long as it remains a viable tool for a few men in power to exert authority over many.
I'm not talking about God, here... I'm speaking of the various religions that claim to know what God's intentions are. Religion and God are not one in the same. The religions were all created by Man to explain the unknown and bundle them all under the God concept.
The truth is... we don't know the origins of the universe... we are learning and have some knowledge of it. As for God... we don't know squat about Him(/Her/It) so we make Him in our image and pour all of our emotions into Him and turn Him into this vengeful... spiteful... judgemental being in order to keep us in line.
Truth is.. we should be good people... not for some kind of reward after this life. Maybe, we should be good... just because.
Great post, Cosmo. Especially the last part.
I don't think religions will go away. They will just slowly change like all institutions and land masses slowly change. It would be nice if they would change away from being controlling and become more spiritual and more focused on being helpful, kind and loving.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
We were just talking about this...and I got kinda pissed off in that religion - faith - the tenets of living a compassionate and decent life (which I know are not exclusively taught via religion, but ARE taught through that means as well) - can be so easily dismissed, even made fun of. (talking in general and not scowling at anyone in particular here)
I'm all for people finding strength, direction, peace...how they can.
"leave it to me as I find a way to be" - and I'll do the same for you. They don't call it the Golden Rule for nothing.
Cosmo, you always say it well on this subject. And, I always go back to religion...well, not even religion, but god - what guides the greater part of us - is ourselves. Nature.
(I will also say as a large disclaimer that we just smoked a mighty fine bowl, and then I had a "conversation" with the cats. They have insight, I tell ya!)
We were just talking about this...and I got kinda pissed off in that religion - faith - the tenets of living a compassionate and decent life (which I know are not exclusively taught via religion, but ARE taught through that means as well) - can be so easily dismissed, even made fun of. (talking in general and not scowling at anyone in particular here)
I'm all for people finding strength, direction, peace...how they can.
"leave it to me as I find a way to be" - and I'll do the same for you. They don't call it the Golden Rule for nothing.
Cosmo, you always say it well on this subject. And, I always go back to religion...well, not even religion, but god - what guides the greater part of us - is ourselves. Nature.
(I will also say as a large disclaimer that we just smoked a mighty fine bowl, and then I had a "conversation" with the cats. They have insight, I tell ya!)
...
That is... I believe you get what you have from your humanity, not from some lessons taught to you from external sources.
And as you say, if people use religion for guidence... it is great. Unless that guidence results in the death of another because someone said something negative about their religion. Religion has that duality because religion is made of Man, by Man,
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
That is... I believe you get what you have from your humanity, not from some lessons taught to you from external sources.
And as you say, if people use religion for guidence... it is great. Unless that guidence results in the death of another because someone said something negative about their religion. Religion has that duality because religion is made of Man, by Man,
We're inherently flawed, by our nature. And I think *some* facets of humanity are taught. Not all, but some.
Hate, among them, unfortunately.
Anyway, after my earlier post, I came upon a nice music stream of the Duke, Count Basie and then Benny Goodman.
I'm gonna continue to ponder this issue as I partake in some more aural goodness.
Religion exists because of the need, by many, for certainty. I think it all stems from that. So as long as there is uncertainty and fear, there will be a need for an "absolute truth" to get most of us through the night. Although I do not believe in any god that we are aware of, I'm cool with others believing. The big questions, the inequities of or world, the suffering that humans inflict on one another...its just too damn much. Like I said, "whatever gets you through the night."
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
Religion is as much of a weakness as science. Why can't both be good? Why is it the non-believers must trash religion to make themselves feel good? Insecurity much?
i think people since the beginning of time have wondered why we are here. Whats the purpose. Whats the point of all this. And obviously thats something humans still grapple with. Its universal. And religion for some people answers those questions, or provides some answers. I dont forsee a time when people wont be asking existential questions. And whenever or whereever those questions are asked, religion, faith and spirituality isnt going to be far behind.
I think the fundamental question is, can religion be seperated from people who do bad things in the name of religion. And then I think you also get into the realm of deciding if religion is the driving force, or if something else like patriarchy, racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, expansionism, and civilization are the things that need to be addressed instead. Because theres lots of religions that do seem to promote great values, buddhism, jainism, the quakers.
...
That is... I believe you get what you have from your humanity, not from some lessons taught to you from external sources.
And as you say, if people use religion for guidence... it is great. Unless that guidence results in the death of another because someone said something negative about their religion. Religion has that duality because religion is made of Man, by Man,
We're inherently flawed, by our nature. And I think *some* facets of humanity are taught. Not all, but some.
Hate, among them, unfortunately.
Anyway, after my earlier post, I came upon a nice music stream of the Duke, Count Basie and then Benny Goodman.
I'm gonna continue to ponder this issue as I partake in some more aural goodness.
Hedonist, your post made me think -- I fear that as the planet becomes more and more populated, that religions will evolve, and as more and more religions are created, they will always butt heads. But I think a lot of people are abandoning religion for spirituality.
I wish we could all be impartial to all religion until age 20 or something, that way, we can believe in specifically what we want and what we learn and perceive, and not become a product of what is taught to us or fed to us. How many people are the very religion of their parents/family, and locale? And if some werent railroaded into specific religions, maybe (big maybe), some wouldnt be so offended by opponents of their religion, and possibly they might not lash out in the name of their "God." Maybe each persons religion should be their own, not a collective?
Comments
Does it? So religion describes how God has either
A.) been around for infinite time
B.) Explains how God was created?
When you ask "how it ALL came to be?" does that include God? How they (all) came to be?
I don't mean to attack your beliefs Inlet, but time doesn't exist, it's an illusion. Most scientists refer to it as Space-Time now because they are having a hard time letting go of the illusion. There is simply existence, which started with the big bang and space expanding. If something exist, you can prove it by manipulating it, you cannot manipulate time, because it's just a unit of measurement. But you can't effect it.
What they are working on is interesting and somewhat pointless at once. Don't get me wrong, science has a great role in pretty much everything. But, trying to find the origin is a like trying to find the point at which a a rainbow hits the ground - you know what I mean?
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Religion explains an origin and the endings.
I'd say God is infinite and in-time - so incomprehensible - he, she, it - is all that is and ever was.
Personally, I think this is what Jesus was trying to say. He was killed for it.
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I'd argue it does exist and think most would back me. If time doesn't exist life doesn't exist.
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Eh, o.k. i tried.
If God is infinite, why cant time be infinite as well? Will time ever stop going into the future? There's no way to say it doesnt go into an infinite past, is there? fuck, now my head hurts.
And EdsonN, your post is awesome.
Yes, it's not as simple as seeing my dogs again.
Those are good views, but they can still rest in the realm of faith. Not to digress in a Jungian Collective Unconscious tangent, but the idea a reunion with "God as everything," or simply everything/the whole, posits the idea of a connection to something larger. (Isn't this the debate in I Heart Huckabees?
I just watched a documentary on the brain. I watched two scientists cut a brain open. The idea that a muscle contains all that man is capable of, all that man has done, drove me to pack a bowl, pick up the six string, and disappear; i.e., that simple point of knowledge that everything we are, in a metaphysical sense, comes from this muscle points to the idea that there has to be something else that we are simply unable to fathom.
This is once again where faith comes into play. I still am inclined to believe that when I die, I will lay in the ground and rot. This I can see; this is tangible.
"But, trying to find the origin is a like trying to find the point at which a a rainbow hits the ground - you know what I mean?"
I'm with you; but, what if the universe expands in a circular pattern? What if the rainbow has a bottom half that we are unable to see?
All of this is beyond our realm of understanding WITHOUT religion. Very interesting
Another great tune:
"The universe is shaped exactly like the earth, if you go straight long enough, you end up where you where"
I've begun worshipping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.
I want you to know, when it comes to believing in god- I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is FUCKED-UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago.
I noticed that of all the prayers I used to offer to god, and all the prayers that I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answer at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want. Half the time I don't. Same as god 50/50. Same as the four leaf clover, the horse shoe, the rabbit's foot, and the wishing well. Same as the mojo man. Same as the voodoo lady who tells your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles. It's all the same; 50/50. So just pick your superstitions, sit back, make a wish and enjoy yourself. And for those of you that look to the Bible for it's literary qualities and moral lessons; I got a couple other stories I might like to recommend for you. You might enjoy The Three Little Pigs. That's a good one. It has a nice happy ending. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood. Although it does have that one x-rated part where the Big-Bad-Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I liked best: ...and all the king's horses, and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no god. None. Not one. Never was. No god.
Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear your shoes
RIP George Carlin
7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)~4.13.20~9.27.20~9.26.21~10.2.21
2.15.22 (EV)~2.25.22 (EV)~2.27.22 (EV)~5.3.22~5.7.22~9.17.24~9.29.24
I've also got a feeling I'm going to have to re-read parts; not that they don't necessarily make sense, but it'll take a bit to wrap my mind around some of these thoughts, and theories.
Thanks, all
no it will not,believe it or not Jesus is real and so is God..beliefe in God in one for another goes back thousands of years,people that never heard of "God" knew that there was someone special that looked over them or brought the rain or just life in general and here's the shocker....you ready ? ..millions and millions still do
Godfather.
Well, then, I hope Satan is a Pearl Jam fan.....though I think I may be subjected to Last Kiss and Backspacer played on repeat :(
Sadly, in particular as evidenced on these boards, until the tolerance for others opinions and belief structures is fully embraced by ALL, its hard to imagine. When we respect each other (and only then) it will eventually lead to the road of speaking about science and athiest views...until then
What would be nice is if we can get rid of religion in the government 100%...
7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)~4.13.20~9.27.20~9.26.21~10.2.21
2.15.22 (EV)~2.25.22 (EV)~2.27.22 (EV)~5.3.22~5.7.22~9.17.24~9.29.24
I am in no way perfect (duhhh) but I can tell you....it's not too late
Godfather.
I'm not talking about God, here... I'm speaking of the various religions that claim to know what God's intentions are. Religion and God are not one in the same. The religions were all created by Man to explain the unknown and bundle them all under the God concept.
The truth is... we don't know the origins of the universe... we are learning and have some knowledge of it. As for God... we don't know squat about Him(/Her/It) so we make Him in our image and pour all of our emotions into Him and turn Him into this vengeful... spiteful... judgemental being in order to keep us in line.
Truth is.. we should be good people... not for some kind of reward after this life. Maybe, we should be good... just because.
Hail, Hail!!!
Then we will have the "true religion".
If I opened it now would you not understand?
ive never understood why at least spirituality and science couldnt coexist. Its not like evolution couldnt have been an act of God. One can believe in the tenets of science, of mutations, and genes, and cells, and evolution and still believe in God. Even the big bang could be understood as what it was in the scientific sense, and still believe that the originator, or the person or thing that ordered such a collision is God. Even the thing that continually is talked about, how old the earth is, could be understood in both disciplines simotaneously.
Religion and God are not one in the same.
great call ! that's the truth.
Godfather.
In a nutshell... that is it.
I believe life is a journey of discovery. Where Science is a search for answers, religions claim to have all of the answers. To seek God is a journey of discovery... not taking the words of men written 2000 or 5000 years ago as the absolute truth. Where science feeds our logical thoughts, religion should be a journey to fill our spirit. They don't have to be at odds with each other... both can live within us.
Hail, Hail!!!
And seeing as religion hasnt disappeared, that after people stopped believing in Zeus, that people continued to believe in SOMETHING of various names, that this is in fact probably proof religion wont die out.
Great post, Cosmo. Especially the last part.
I don't think religions will go away. They will just slowly change like all institutions and land masses slowly change. It would be nice if they would change away from being controlling and become more spiritual and more focused on being helpful, kind and loving.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I'm all for people finding strength, direction, peace...how they can.
"leave it to me as I find a way to be" - and I'll do the same for you. They don't call it the Golden Rule for nothing.
Cosmo, you always say it well on this subject. And, I always go back to religion...well, not even religion, but god - what guides the greater part of us - is ourselves. Nature.
(I will also say as a large disclaimer that we just smoked a mighty fine bowl, and then I had a "conversation" with the cats. They have insight, I tell ya!)
That is... I believe you get what you have from your humanity, not from some lessons taught to you from external sources.
And as you say, if people use religion for guidence... it is great. Unless that guidence results in the death of another because someone said something negative about their religion. Religion has that duality because religion is made of Man, by Man,
Hail, Hail!!!
Hate, among them, unfortunately.
Anyway, after my earlier post, I came upon a nice music stream of the Duke, Count Basie and then Benny Goodman.
I'm gonna continue to ponder this issue as I partake in some more aural goodness.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
I think the fundamental question is, can religion be seperated from people who do bad things in the name of religion. And then I think you also get into the realm of deciding if religion is the driving force, or if something else like patriarchy, racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, expansionism, and civilization are the things that need to be addressed instead. Because theres lots of religions that do seem to promote great values, buddhism, jainism, the quakers.
Hedonist, your post made me think -- I fear that as the planet becomes more and more populated, that religions will evolve, and as more and more religions are created, they will always butt heads. But I think a lot of people are abandoning religion for spirituality.
I wish we could all be impartial to all religion until age 20 or something, that way, we can believe in specifically what we want and what we learn and perceive, and not become a product of what is taught to us or fed to us. How many people are the very religion of their parents/family, and locale? And if some werent railroaded into specific religions, maybe (big maybe), some wouldnt be so offended by opponents of their religion, and possibly they might not lash out in the name of their "God." Maybe each persons religion should be their own, not a collective?