Yosi has been very dispassionate in his discourse and I've been very impressed with his patience and ability to articulate his position. I've been on the other end of Byrnzie's 'mocking' tone in another thread and... well... it does tend to piss a guy off. To Byrnzie's credit in this discussion... he's relentless and very well read on this subject- he's more than entitled to his opinion.
He's English. Sarcasm, dry wit, and a touch of arrogance is their thing. ) And I love 'em for it.
I'd be curious to know what percentage of the Palestinian people would prefer to simply drop the issue and forfeit the land? As opposed to fighting what (at this moment) seems like an unwinnable situation, what percentage of people would prefer to concede the area to avoid the violence? Is there an unmistakable level of resolve within every Palestinian... or is it only the extremists that resist the occupation?
With that said, I'd also be curious to know what percentage of Israelis feel they should withdraw from the strip and avoid the conflict? Is it a widespread belief that the land they seek is theirs or is this a reflection of the country's political and military leaders that insist on wresting the land from Palestine?
We see the face of the conflict, but what are the prevalent attitudes for both sides and how prevalent are they?
Well, their situations are very different. Israelis, if they support the zionist eretz-israel ambition, want to give nothing up, and in fact want to annex all of the land 'from the river to the sea'. There are definitely Israeli's working toward giving the Palestinians their own sovereign state, tho. I have no idea what the percentages are. For the Palestinians....yes, there are probably a large portion of the people who feel that the Nakba was UN-sanctioned ethnic cleansing; a travesty almost universally opposed by everyone in the region, and imposed on it by western powers. They see it as a crime, and feel that Israel should not exist. I can see their point, but we are well beyond the point of one side kicking the other out completely being a valid solution. Also, the Palestinians could not simply cede the land and become Israeli citizens, even if that was the choice of the majority....Israel would not grant them citizenship, lest the 'demographic problem' affect the 'jewishness' of the state. Israel cannot be a 'self-determined-jewish-democracy', while both incorporating the occupied territories, and granting equal citizenship to all it's inhabitants. This is where the comparisons to, and the differences between South African apartheid come from. Israelis like to say that they are not practising apartheid because the Palestinians are not citizens, they are occupied peoples. So the Palestinians are in limbo. No sovereign nation from which to defend themselves, and no rights under their occupiers. If they were granted citizenship, and the demographic shifts to an Arab majority, Israel will likely no longer be a jewish state. This is where the right of return for Palestinian refugees also becomes such a contentious issue. So do you see the problem here? in a two state solution, both countries can exist. Do they exist peacefully? Probably not. I think eventual peace could come from being a true democracy for all people in the region. But even suggesting a single democratic state will have you called anti-semetic, and accused of wanting to see Israel wiped from the map.
First of all, as I keep saying, Zionism and settler-far-right extremism are not the same thing. I would say that the vast majority of Israelis are Zionists but have no particular ideological commitment to the idea of greater Israel, i.e., "from the river to the sea." In fact, the common feeling on the Israeli left is that the settler's and those who support them are, despite their protestations and beliefs to the contrary, firmly anti-Zionist, as their actions show a disregard for the sovereignty and rule of law of the state, and actually pose the most serious existential threat to Israel's continued existence as both a Jewish and democratic state. For example: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/zionists-are-not-settlers-zionists-are-not-racists-1.292078 My own feeling from having lived in Israel and from speaking to my many friends who continue to live there is that most Israelis would, in theory, like for there to be peace on the basis of a two state solution. In practice there is very little trust among Israelis for the Palestinians. The Israeli perspective (and here I am not stating my own feelings) is that the conflict with the Arabs (not just the Palestinians) long pre-dates the occupation, and is actually about the existence of Israel itself. They look at the Arab world and see nothing to convince them that ending the occupation would bring them actual peace. They look at the withdrawal from Southern Lebanon (which was long occupied as a military buffer zone) and see that withdrawal was followed by periodic bouts of Hezbollah raining missiles into Israel. They look to the withdrawal from Gaza and see the same result. They look to the 1990's, when Israel handed over administrative and security control for most of the major Palestinian population centers in the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority as part of the Oslo process, and see that that was followed by a wave of suicide bombers. So basically there is a silent majority in Israel that wants peace but doesn't trust that they will get it by ending the occupation. On the contrary, they believe that ending the occupation now would mean less security for Israel.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Awww, Byrnzie can't comment anymore? I'm going to miss being called a racist murder apartheid supporting pig.
In the meantime, enjoy this video from 3 days ago where Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri freely admits and praises his people for serving as human shields. With the iron dome missile system, Israel uses the missiles to protect their people. Hamas is using their people to protect their missiles.
Awww, Byrnzie can't comment anymore? I'm going to miss being called a racist murder supporting apartheid supporting pig.
In the meantime, enjoy this video from 3 days ago where Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri freely admits and praises his people for serving as human shields. With the iron dome missile system, Israel uses the missiles to protect their people. Hamas is using their people to protect their missiles.
Awww, Byrnzie can't comment anymore? I'm going to miss being called a racist murder supporting apartheid supporting pig.
In the meantime, enjoy this video from 3 days ago where Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri freely admits and praises his people for serving as human shields. With the iron dome missile system, Israel uses the missiles to protect their people. Hamas is using their people to protect their missiles.
Hmmmm, I wonder why byrnzie is suspended? Kind of ironic one of the guys with lots of information on the subject gets suspended. Wouldn't you say?
Oh, definitely. Do you think the Israelis paid the Ten Club off, or are the band actually owned by the Obama Administration?
Two opposing standpoints, one remains, the other is banned. Both communicate with well-researched opinions, but only one calls people names such as 'pig', 'murderer', 'racist', etc. I'd say the irony in this situation stems from the fact that, by neglecting to read, comprehend, or abide by the forum rules, the person trying to share information to educate others has himself been banned!
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Awww, Byrnzie can't comment anymore? I'm going to miss being called a racist murder supporting apartheid supporting pig.
In the meantime, enjoy this video from 3 days ago where Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri freely admits and praises his people for serving as human shields. With the iron dome missile system, Israel uses the missiles to protect their people. Hamas is using their people to protect their missiles.
Hahahahaha, sorry guys, I was referring to someone crying and complaining to the mods about byrnzie, no conspiracy. And here I thought u guys were smarter then most of us who post on this thread. No doubt someone cried to the mods.
Cut off power to Gaza dialysis patients, Knesset deputy speaker urges
“The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israeli army] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza],” said Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, on Wednesday.
“Therefore I call on the prime minister who we all support in this difficult hour, before we send the IDF into Gaza, we should simply shut down their electricity,” he added.
...When lawmaker Ibrahim Sarsour of the United Arab List party condemned Israel’s attack on Gaza, Feiglin orders guards to forcibly remove him from the podium and expel him.
With the iron dome missile system, Israel uses the missiles to protect their people. Hamas is using their people to protect their missiles.
Hamas didn't 'use' anybody as human shields, because those people who made their way to the top of the building to try and prevent it from being destroyed in an act of Israeli collective punishment - a war crime - did so by their own volition, their own choice, and not because of any orders from Hamas.
Cut off power to Gaza dialysis patients, Knesset deputy speaker urges
“The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israeli army] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza],” said Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, on Wednesday.
“Therefore I call on the prime minister who we all support in this difficult hour, before we send the IDF into Gaza, we should simply shut down their electricity,” he added.
...When lawmaker Ibrahim Sarsour of the United Arab List party condemned Israel’s attack on Gaza, Feiglin orders guards to forcibly remove him from the podium and expel him.
why am i not shocked by this?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Put the pj in Israel campaign to bed. Thank you Eddie for speaking out with such passion.
Thanks drowned out! Thanks for speaking up and showing conviction. Takes people like you and byrnzie who are NOT afraid to speak out. Who are NOT afraid to voice opinion and share facts. They silenced one and are gonna try to silence you to my friend. And I applaud you Thirty, for jumping in and wanting to know more. Dnt be afraid Thirty to search of answers, to ask questions, to voice your opinion. Much respect for at least wanting to know what's really going on over there. Byrnzie, sorry you were silenced my friend, hopefully we'll keep this up till u get back.
Oh shit, sorry Gimmie, I forgot to mention U2 buddy! Rod, you've always been popping in and out, awesome bro that u still care about this! So much passion. U guys have no idea what this means to Palestinians all around the world to have people like you guys spreading information and speaking out against what's happening to them. Awesome.
Here's another interesting article I found- Haaretz
By Judy Maltz Published 14:48 12.07.14
In a surprise move, the leaders of World Bnei Akiva refrained Friday from voting on a motion to replace the secretary-general of the religious-Zionist movement over remarks he made urging violent revenge on Palestinians for the murder of three Jewish teenagers.
Although the American and British branches of the international Zionist youth movement had demanded the ouster of Rabbi Noam Perel, its governing body decided not to hold the vote because most of the other branches of the movement were satisfied with the apology he delivered earlier this week.
In a statement, World Bnei Akiva sufficed with the following reference to Perel: “The Mazkirut Murchevet [extended secretariat] received reports from representatives of snifim [branches] from around the world, and has been apprised of the substantial damage caused to snifim [around the world by Rav Noam Perel’s statement, despite his apology.”
It also said that “The Mazkirut Murchevet wishes to emphasize our love for humanity and our deep aversion to extremist actions that are antithetical to Judaism such as ‘price tagging’ and acts of revenge.”
Shortly after the bodies of the three teenage boys were discovered, Perel posted on his Facebook page: “An entire nation and thousands of years of history demand revenge.” He urged the “army of avengers” not to stop at “300 Philistine foreskins,” alluding to the biblical tale of David, who killed 200 Philistines and gave their foreskins to King Saul as the bride price for his daughter.
Expressing his deep apologies and describing his Facebook post as “misleading and irresponsible,” Perel said in a statement published a week later: “The call for the Israeli government to look after the lives of our children must not be confused in any way with any suggestion of revenge, words which should not be used by any person, and certainly not educators and leaders. I cannot express to you how badly this error has caused me to feel, and especially its unintended consequences.”
Daniel Goldman- the co-chair of World Bnei Akiva told Haaretz today: “The consensus was that since the vast majority of the countries where Bnei Akiva operates were quite happy with the apology, no vote was needed. We didn’t want to create a split in the movement.”
Goldman added, however, that the movement’s decision to refrain from a vote on ousting Perel did not represent his own personal view. “My opinion was that he should resign,” he said.
The British branch of Bnei Akiva threatened earlier this week to withdraw from the movement should Perel be allowed to remain in office. Goldman said he was “pretty confident” that it would not take such a drastic measure.
In its statement, World Bnei Akiva also urged the movement’s professional leadership “to establish a forum of representatives from around the world to advise on appropriate responses and next steps to address present challenges and to spread our message of love of humanity.
The Mazkirut Murchevet calls upon the professional leadership to establish an educational team to produce educational materials that accord with these values and that enable encounters between Bnei Akiva participants and wider Israeli society.”
Put the pj in Israel campaign to bed. Thank you Eddie for speaking out with such passion.
yeah i saw this. it is good to see ed taking a stand. i love his passion. i think he made it clear that they are not going to israel any time soon.
there was a pearl jam/israel thread on the porch?? when was this??? i looked at 3 pages of the porch and it wasn't there. maybe the thread got deleted...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Put the pj in Israel campaign to bed. Thank you Eddie for speaking out with such passion.
Thanks drowned out! Thanks for speaking up and showing conviction. Takes people like you and byrnzie who are NOT afraid to speak out. Who are NOT afraid to voice opinion and share facts. They silenced one and are gonna try to silence you to my friend. And I applaud you Thirty, for jumping in and wanting to know more. Dnt be afraid Thirty to search of answers, to ask questions, to voice your opinion. Much respect for at least wanting to know what's really going on over there. Byrnzie, sorry you were silenced my friend, hopefully we'll keep this up till u get back.
Oh shit, sorry Gimmie, I forgot to mention U2 buddy! Rod, you've always been popping in and out, awesome bro that u still care about this! So much passion. U guys have no idea what this means to Palestinians all around the world to have people like you guys spreading information and speaking out against what's happening to them. Awesome.
yeah man, i don't spend so much time on here anymore. but i lurk, and i will always try to keep up with the israel/palestine conflict. i will always make my position known and post information if i have it or run across it on the news sites. it has been a big interest of mine since 2009. i had a g/f who was trying to get into gaza in a humanitarian role after we split up back in 2010. last i talked to her was during the blockade and she did not get in. the blockade got lifted and i don't know if she ever got there or not. but every time i hear of violence in gaza, i always look for her name when the victims' names are published. just out of habit i guess. her and i don't speak anymore, so i guess i will never ever know.
fact is, i have learned a lot on this forum. from guys like yourself, byrnzie, drowned out, and posters who don't come around anymore for whatever reason. i have even learned from yosi and some of the other israelis who no longer post on here.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Put the pj in Israel campaign to bed. Thank you Eddie for speaking out with such passion.
yeah i saw this. it is good to see ed taking a stand. i love his passion. i think he made it clear that they are not going to israel any time soon.
there was a pearl jam/israel thread on the porch?? when was this??? i looked at 3 pages of the porch and it wasn't there. maybe the thread got deleted...
Started around the time that cover of alive was released. The op abandoned the thread eventually. I repeatedly asked this of their movement, to no response:
I have a question for the PJ Play Israel organizers.... Would you issue a statement denouncing the discrimmination of your government against Palestinians? Would you at least symbolically show a Palestinian flag as a show of solidarity in one of your youtube vids? Or are we just paying lip service to the notion that you are peaceful and do not support your government's actions?
Put the pj in Israel campaign to bed. Thank you Eddie for speaking out with such passion.
yeah i saw this. it is good to see ed taking a stand. i love his passion. i think he made it clear that they are not going to israel any time soon.
there was a pearl jam/israel thread on the porch?? when was this??? i looked at 3 pages of the porch and it wasn't there. maybe the thread got deleted...
Started around the time that cover of alive was released. The op abandoned the thread eventually. I repeatedly asked this of their movement, to no response:
I have a question for the PJ Play Israel organizers.... Would you issue a statement denouncing the discrimmination of your government against Palestinians? Would you at least symbolically show a Palestinian flag as a show of solidarity in one of your youtube vids? Or are we just paying lip service to the notion that you are peaceful and do not support your government's actions?
Ed's statement was so powerful, much respect.
yeah i stayed out of that one. i thought it was a cool idea, but i knew it would never work.
ed knew exactly what he was saying. i hope he continues to speak out.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Put the pj in Israel campaign to bed. Thank you Eddie for speaking out with such passion.
Pretty fucken obvious where Ed stands and thanks for finally having the balls to attach your name to this conflict Ed! Wow, I wonder if he's gonna get any backlash now. Wow, NO DOUBT what side he's on, holyshit, I'm in shock. Someone as big as Ed to do this, unreal!!! Thanks again eddie and drowned out for posting!!!
And the look and anger in eds eyes, speaking from the heart. There's a thread on the forum that asks "what's so great about Ed"-well, there's your answer. He has huge big balls and isn't afraid to speak out!
Wow, yea, Ed not only put that issue to rest, he buried it in the ground and dumped a ton of concrete over it.
Great to see Eddie bring attention to this - regardless of the side he's on, hopefully it'll implore people who see/saw this to research the topic and make their own conclusions. At the end of the day, everyone's entitled to their own position on the matter.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Wow, yea, Ed not only put that issue to rest, he buried it in the ground and dumped a ton of concrete over it.
Great to see Eddie bring attention to this - regardless of the side he's on, hopefully it'll implore people who see/saw this to research the topic and make their own conclusions. At the end of the day, everyone's entitled to their own position on the matter.
Yup, and we all know where HE STANDS on this topic. No doubt there.
Comments
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/zionists-are-not-settlers-zionists-are-not-racists-1.292078
My own feeling from having lived in Israel and from speaking to my many friends who continue to live there is that most Israelis would, in theory, like for there to be peace on the basis of a two state solution. In practice there is very little trust among Israelis for the Palestinians. The Israeli perspective (and here I am not stating my own feelings) is that the conflict with the Arabs (not just the Palestinians) long pre-dates the occupation, and is actually about the existence of Israel itself. They look at the Arab world and see nothing to convince them that ending the occupation would bring them actual peace. They look at the withdrawal from Southern Lebanon (which was long occupied as a military buffer zone) and see that withdrawal was followed by periodic bouts of Hezbollah raining missiles into Israel. They look to the withdrawal from Gaza and see the same result. They look to the 1990's, when Israel handed over administrative and security control for most of the major Palestinian population centers in the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority as part of the Oslo process, and see that that was followed by a wave of suicide bombers. So basically there is a silent majority in Israel that wants peace but doesn't trust that they will get it by ending the occupation. On the contrary, they believe that ending the occupation now would mean less security for Israel.
In the meantime, enjoy this video from 3 days ago where Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri freely admits and praises his people for serving as human shields. With the iron dome missile system, Israel uses the missiles to protect their people. Hamas is using their people to protect their missiles.
Two opposing standpoints, one remains, the other is banned. Both communicate with well-researched opinions, but only one calls people names such as 'pig', 'murderer', 'racist', etc. I'd say the irony in this situation stems from the fact that, by neglecting to read, comprehend, or abide by the forum rules, the person trying to share information to educate others has himself been banned!
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Cut off power to Gaza dialysis patients, Knesset deputy speaker urges
“The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israeli army] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza],” said Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, on Wednesday.
“Therefore I call on the prime minister who we all support in this difficult hour, before we send the IDF into Gaza, we should simply shut down their electricity,” he added.
...When lawmaker Ibrahim Sarsour of the United Arab List party condemned Israel’s attack on Gaza, Feiglin orders guards to forcibly remove him from the podium and expel him.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/12/israel-continues-gaza-bombardment-pushing-death-toll-past-120
Early on Saturday 16 Palestinians were reported to have died in a wave of Israeli air strikes as Operation Protective Edge entered its fifth day.
Among them were two people killed in a strike that hit a charitable association for the disabled in Beit Lahiya in northern Gaza...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=X4ukBCCyczA
Skip to 4:30 for the tag.
Put the pj in Israel campaign to bed. Thank you Eddie for speaking out with such passion.
Oh shit, sorry Gimmie, I forgot to mention U2 buddy! Rod, you've always been popping in and out, awesome bro that u still care about this! So much passion. U guys have no idea what this means to Palestinians all around the world to have people like you guys spreading information and speaking out against what's happening to them. Awesome.
By Judy Maltz
Published 14:48 12.07.14
In a surprise move, the leaders of World Bnei Akiva refrained Friday from voting on a motion to replace the secretary-general of the religious-Zionist movement over remarks he made urging violent revenge on Palestinians for the murder of three Jewish teenagers.
Although the American and British branches of the international Zionist youth movement had demanded the ouster of Rabbi Noam Perel, its governing body decided not to hold the vote because most of the other branches of the movement were satisfied with the apology he delivered earlier this week.
In a statement, World Bnei Akiva sufficed with the following reference to Perel: “The Mazkirut Murchevet [extended secretariat] received reports from representatives of snifim [branches] from around the world, and has been apprised of the substantial damage caused to snifim [around the world by Rav Noam Perel’s statement, despite his apology.”
It also said that “The Mazkirut Murchevet wishes to emphasize our love for humanity and our deep aversion to extremist actions that are antithetical to Judaism such as ‘price tagging’ and acts of revenge.”
Shortly after the bodies of the three teenage boys were discovered, Perel posted on his Facebook page: “An entire nation and thousands of years of history demand revenge.” He urged the “army of avengers” not to stop at “300 Philistine foreskins,” alluding to the biblical tale of David, who killed 200 Philistines and gave their foreskins to King Saul as the bride price for his daughter.
Expressing his deep apologies and describing his Facebook post as “misleading and irresponsible,” Perel said in a statement published a week later: “The call for the Israeli government to look after the lives of our children must not be confused in any way with any suggestion of revenge, words which should not be used by any person, and certainly not educators and leaders. I cannot express to you how badly this error has caused me to feel, and especially its unintended consequences.”
Daniel Goldman- the co-chair of World Bnei Akiva told Haaretz today: “The consensus was that since the vast majority of the countries where Bnei Akiva operates were quite happy with the apology, no vote was needed. We didn’t want to create a split in the movement.”
Goldman added, however, that the movement’s decision to refrain from a vote on ousting Perel did not represent his own personal view. “My opinion was that he should resign,” he said.
The British branch of Bnei Akiva threatened earlier this week to withdraw from the movement should Perel be allowed to remain in office. Goldman said he was “pretty confident” that it would not take such a drastic measure.
In its statement, World Bnei Akiva also urged the movement’s professional leadership “to establish a forum of representatives from around the world to advise on appropriate responses and next steps to address present challenges and to spread our message of love of humanity.
The Mazkirut Murchevet calls upon the professional leadership to establish an educational team to produce educational materials that accord with these values and that enable encounters between Bnei Akiva participants and wider Israeli society.”
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
there was a pearl jam/israel thread on the porch?? when was this??? i looked at 3 pages of the porch and it wasn't there. maybe the thread got deleted...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
fact is, i have learned a lot on this forum. from guys like yourself, byrnzie, drowned out, and posters who don't come around anymore for whatever reason. i have even learned from yosi and some of the other israelis who no longer post on here.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Started around the time that cover of alive was released. The op abandoned the thread eventually. I repeatedly asked this of their movement, to no response:
I have a question for the PJ Play Israel organizers....
Would you issue a statement denouncing the discrimmination of your government against Palestinians? Would you at least symbolically show a Palestinian flag as a show of solidarity in one of your youtube vids? Or are we just paying lip service to the notion that you are peaceful and do not support your government's actions?
Ed's statement was so powerful, much respect.
ed knew exactly what he was saying. i hope he continues to speak out.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
thanks for posting.
they still need nearly 3000 more signatures...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
And the look and anger in eds eyes, speaking from the heart. There's a thread on the forum that asks "what's so great about Ed"-well, there's your answer. He has huge big balls and isn't afraid to speak out!
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1