algebra = hard...should we get rid of it?

Cosmo

peacefrompaul wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

I found a way around most of it... Philosophy...

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Philosophy... where every answer is the correct answer... depending upon the observer... and the physical space he occupys... wherther he even exists or not.
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We got a lot of our critical thinking skills from mathematics. Because mathematics contains some of the basic known truths in the Universe. Most equations have one answer... which is true. Sometimes the answer is singular... sometimes it is all... sometimes it is null, depending upon the equation. And we have to get there by critical thought.
Do we need it in every day life... probably not. Although our everyday lives are much easier because of people who used critical thought to bring things like electricity and running water into our lives.

Yes, Allegory of the Cave is going to suit me well.

...
I am partial to the truth I read on a filthy shithouse wall at a Texaco station off the I-5 near Bakersfield, "I Stink, therefore, I Am".

peacefrompaul

Cosmo wrote:

...
I am partial to the truth I read on a filthy shithouse wall at a Texaco station off the I-5 near Bakersfield, "I Stink, therefore, I Am".

Go Beavers

riotgrl wrote:

School should be hard and if anything we are far to easy on these kids. Which is exactly why the US continues to lag behind all other western nations in terms of all or most subjects. We need to quit rewarding them for "trying" and reward them for doing. I sucked (!!!!) at any math so I got a tutor. Only C I had in high school or college.

I think the expectation has been raised over time regarding math curriculum. Most high school's math requirements that I've seen are a year ahead of what it was back in my day (84'-88'), and the school I went to was no slouch. You have more people saying it's too hard because the requirements have been raised, where before you could get a diploma by just scraping through knuckle head math and be done with it.

Go Beavers

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

And people say cursive writing is dead!

RW81233

I am for math and quantitative reasoning to an extent is useful. However, is there a way to quantify human thought and action? Maybe but it's an equation that I don't think anyone is going to find, and if they do they will surely be rich as shit. Either way keep algebra methinks.

inlet13

Ugh. This topic makes me cringe.

The irony is all around - some like music, can read music, but yet... algebra... too hard. Come on - you're embarrassing yourself.

Anyway, in my doctoral program's graduating class (economics), I was the only American student. Why do I bring this up? Simply because there were several Asians, several from Eastern Europe, one from Mexico, even one from Africa, etc. It was math intensive.

It drives me nuts to think that a typical American can't do math. The bottom line is the typical American doesn't like problem solving. We go to siri or google.

Math has a very, very, very important place in society - especially now. You look around and tell me about what rules the world - I say math-oriented subjects ---- statistics, finance, economics, engineering, etc. Anyone who believes math is a waste of time is foolish.

riotgrl

Go Beavers wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

School should be hard and if anything we are far to easy on these kids. Which is exactly why the US continues to lag behind all other western nations in terms of all or most subjects. We need to quit rewarding them for "trying" and reward them for doing. I sucked (!!!!) at any math so I got a tutor. Only C I had in high school or college.

I think the expectation has been raised over time regarding math curriculum. Most high school's math requirements that I've seen are a year ahead of what it was back in my day (84'-88'), and the school I went to was no slouch. You have more people saying it's too hard because the requirements have been raised, where before you could get a diploma by just scraping through knuckle head math and be done with it.

I see what you're saying but disagree a bit. I graduated close to when you did and only certain people were encouraged/allowed to take upper level math classes whereas today most kids are expected to take these classes which may tax their ability to perform at high levels (which I think is the same thing you're saying?). I think I disagree because of the math curriculum at elementary levels. They are trying to teach abstract concepts in Kindergarten when these kids are still concrete thinkers instead of focusing on the skills they will need later to become abstract thinkers. Also, we are too easy on these kids in terms of expectations. I teach at a school that is a top 150 (according to Newsweek, anyway ) and when the kids struggle in math, it is someone else's fault, certainly not their own. These are not dumb kids but very few seek out extra help or tutoring when it gets too hard.

riotgrl

inlet13 wrote:

Ugh. This topic makes me cringe.

The irony is all around - some like music, can read music, but yet... algebra... too hard. Come on - you're embarrassing yourself.

Anyway, in my doctoral program's graduating class (economics), I was the only American student. Why do I bring this up? Simply because there were several Asians, several from Eastern Europe, one from Mexico, even one from Africa, etc. It was math intensive.

It drives me nuts to think that a typical American can't do math. The bottom line is the typical American doesn't like problem solving. We go to siri or google.

Math has a very, very, very important place in society - especially now. You look around and tell me about what rules the world - I say math-oriented subjects ---- statistics, finance, economics, engineering, etc. Anyone who believes math is a waste of time is foolish.

Well, I think our culture is in dire need of a mindset shift. I struggled to do algebra, and geometry was nearly incomprehensible to me but I DID it - with a lot of help from a great algebra teacher and a great geometry tutor when I had a terrible teacher. We desperately need problem solving skills which would be reinforced by all the subjects you mentioned and critical thinking skills which would be reinforced by social sciences, art. etc. The change needs to occur in order for us to be competitive with other countries since we are in a global economy. We need to make our schools year round and we need to move away from the expectation that every kid should go to college (which is different than ensuring every kid who wants to and is able CAN go to college). There should be no shame in vocational/technical education and we need to start moving towards a better educational model.

polaris_x

this explains why people are thinking of voting for mitt ...

mikepegg44

hedonist wrote:

(I wish I'd become a plumber!)

I understand the jist of the conversation that started this, but I can tell you from experience. you won't get very far in the journeyman process of plumbing if you cannot use math functionally. A large part of the written test required is "roughing in" a house. Calculating the correct amount of supplies needed to finish a new construction project.

Math is every where, people don't realize how much they use it.

Statistics wouldn't be possibly without a functional knowledge of algebra and how numbers relate to each other. Some people grasp the concepts differently there is no doubt about it, but everyone uses math. whether it is in a simple question of "how long til we get there?" or an impossibly hard question like "why did MC hammer go broke?"...all of these things need math to solve. The problem solving concept is what you learn in algebra...the Pythagorean theorem isn't what you should take away, it is learning how to use something else to solve a problem in front of you. Proficiency in math is a good skill to acquire. Proficiency in meeting a challenge is even better. No one is asking a High School student to perform high level math. And in the rare occasion that a student is asked it is because they can handle it

brianlux

mikepegg44 wrote:

hedonist wrote:

(I wish I'd become a plumber!)

I understand the jist of the conversation that started this, but I can tell you from experience. you won't get very far in the journeyman process of plumbing if you cannot use math functionally. A large part of the written test required is "roughing in" a house. Calculating the correct amount of supplies needed to finish a new construction project.

Math is every where, people don't realize how much they use it.

Statistics wouldn't be possibly without a functional knowledge of algebra and how numbers relate to each other. Some people grasp the concepts differently there is no doubt about it, but everyone uses math. whether it is in a simple question of "how long til we get there?" or an impossibly hard question like "why did MC hammer go broke?"...all of these things need math to solve. The problem solving concept is what you learn in algebra...the Pythagorean theorem isn't what you should take away, it is learning how to use something else to solve a problem in front of you. Proficiency in math is a good skill to acquire. Proficiency in meeting a challenge is even better. No one is asking a High School student to perform high level math. And in the rare occasion that a student is asked it is because they can handle it

Is this perhaps more arithmetic than math? I don't imagine the average plumber needs to know algebra let alone trig or calculus. My other question is, is it not possible for someone to be good at problem solving without knowing the intricacies of math?

Personally I'm all for letting people develop where they are most inclined and interested. There are a lot of very creative, right-brained people who have a very hard time making a living because we only reward the very luck or the very elite in most creative fields and over all we are more apt to reward people who are left-brained. I know an absolutely marvelous painter who lives in near abject poverty. Some day, perhaps his work will be discovered and recognized. I'd be willing to be almost all of us know someone like this.

hedonist

mikepegg44 wrote:

hedonist wrote:

(I wish I'd become a plumber!)

I understand the jist of the conversation that started this, but I can tell you from experience. you won't get very far in the journeyman process of plumbing if you cannot use math functionally. A large part of the written test required is "roughing in" a house. Calculating the correct amount of supplies needed to finish a new construction project.

Math is every where, people don't realize how much they use it.

Statistics wouldn't be possibly without a functional knowledge of algebra and how numbers relate to each other. Some people grasp the concepts differently there is no doubt about it, but everyone uses math. whether it is in a simple question of "how long til we get there?" or an impossibly hard question like "why did MC hammer go broke?"...all of these things need math to solve. The problem solving concept is what you learn in algebra...the Pythagorean theorem isn't what you should take away, it is learning how to use something else to solve a problem in front of you. Proficiency in math is a good skill to acquire. Proficiency in meeting a challenge is even better. No one is asking a High School student to perform high level math. And in the rare occasion that a student is asked it is because they can handle it

I don't disagree, Mike - the plumber comment was regarding my support of vocational schools.

Math IS useful in many realms of life, as you mentioned above and as others have pointed out.

Plus, I just find a beauty in it...in its absoluteness, its truth.

mikepegg44

brianlux wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

hedonist wrote:

(I wish I'd become a plumber!)

I understand the jist of the conversation that started this, but I can tell you from experience. you won't get very far in the journeyman process of plumbing if you cannot use math functionally. A large part of the written test required is "roughing in" a house. Calculating the correct amount of supplies needed to finish a new construction project.

Math is every where, people don't realize how much they use it.

Statistics wouldn't be possibly without a functional knowledge of algebra and how numbers relate to each other. Some people grasp the concepts differently there is no doubt about it, but everyone uses math. whether it is in a simple question of "how long til we get there?" or an impossibly hard question like "why did MC hammer go broke?"...all of these things need math to solve. The problem solving concept is what you learn in algebra...the Pythagorean theorem isn't what you should take away, it is learning how to use something else to solve a problem in front of you. Proficiency in math is a good skill to acquire. Proficiency in meeting a challenge is even better. No one is asking a High School student to perform high level math. And in the rare occasion that a student is asked it is because they can handle it

Is this perhaps more arithmetic than math? I don't imagine the average plumber needs to know algebra let alone trig or calculus. My other question is, is it not possible for someone to be good at problem solving without knowing the intricacies of math?

Personally I'm all for letting people develop where they are most inclined and interested. There are a lot of very creative, right-brained people who have a very hard time making a living because we only reward the very luck or the very elite in most creative fields and over all we are more apt to reward people who are left-brained. I know an absolutely marvelous painter who lives in near abject poverty. Some day, perhaps his work will be discovered and recognized. I'd be willing to be almost all of us know someone like this.

for me that is like saying gas consumption issues is more of a car thing, not a gas operated vehicle thing.

There can be differences in problem focus, but math is math. complex equations or addition, it is all math. It is all about the concepts and finding a truth (not too many of those available for certain). Does a plumber need to know the Pythagorean theorem, probably not, would it help immensely when figuring out where and how far to dig trenches yes it would... how deep something must be built to get the proper angle of `fall` in their drain pipes to make sure they don't back up? (that was a tough lesson I learned...never go to work without a clear head...) It isn't just fitting pipes and guessing...I suppose one could always bring a million more parts than necessary to make sure they have enough...but who would you assume to be the more efficient plumber?

Logic is math based arguments. Breaking arguments down to their consisting parts allows us to find where the illogical or logical assumption was made that through off the end. That is math, not philosophy alone. These concepts are important to anyone wishing to be able to open their mind I think.

mikepegg44

hedonist wrote:

I don't disagree, Mike - the plumber comment was regarding my support of vocational schools.

Math IS useful in many realms of life, as you mentioned above and as others have pointed out.

Plus, I just find a beauty in it...in its absoluteness, its truth.

I didn't take it that way, just wanted to point out that, as a former new construction plumber, it wasn't just showing up and connecting pipes!!!

hedonist

mikepegg44 wrote:

hedonist wrote:

I don't disagree, Mike - the plumber comment was regarding my support of vocational schools.

Math IS useful in many realms of life, as you mentioned above and as others have pointed out.

Plus, I just find a beauty in it...in its absoluteness, its truth.

I didn't take it that way, just wanted to point out that, as a former new construction plumber, it wasn't just showing up and connecting pipes!!!

I know! Definitely appreciate your comments

Cosmo

inlet13 wrote:

Ugh. This topic makes me cringe.

The irony is all around - some like music, can read music, but yet... algebra... too hard. Come on - you're embarrassing yourself.

Anyway, in my doctoral program's graduating class (economics), I was the only American student. Why do I bring this up? Simply because there were several Asians, several from Eastern Europe, one from Mexico, even one from Africa, etc. It was math intensive.

It drives me nuts to think that a typical American can't do math. The bottom line is the typical American doesn't like problem solving. We go to siri or google.

Math has a very, very, very important place in society - especially now. You look around and tell me about what rules the world - I say math-oriented subjects ---- statistics, finance, economics, engineering, etc. Anyone who believes math is a waste of time is foolish.

...
But, we don't need math any more because the cash registers don't have stupid numbers on them any more, instead, they have pictures of Big Mac and Chick-fil-A combos on the buttons. And you don't have to figure in the tax or do that really hard stuff... like figuring out how much stupid change you have to return.
It's called, 'Progress'.
...
Now... let's see what the Kardashians are up to this week.

Jeanwah

Do we really want to dumb our kids down like this by even suggesting eliminating basic math courses? It's embarrassing.

I think it's bad enough they're eliminating cursive writing, all of our kids won't be able to read cursive let alone write it...

Cosmo

Jeanwah wrote:

Do we really want to dumb our kids down like this by even suggesting eliminating basic math courses? It's embarrassing.

I think it's bad enough they're eliminating cursive writing, all of our kids won't be able to read cursive let alone write it...

...
I wonder when Websters going to enter LOL, BFF, IDK and other acronymns to the dictionary?

Jeanwah

Cosmo wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Do we really want to dumb our kids down like this by even suggesting eliminating basic math courses? It's embarrassing.

I think it's bad enough they're eliminating cursive writing, all of our kids won't be able to read cursive let alone write it...

...
I wonder when Websters going to enter LOL, BFF, IDK and other acronymns to the dictionary?

all in due time.... sigh. And the dictionary won't be a printed book, it'll be available only digitally.

Cosmo

Jeanwah wrote:

all in due time.... sigh. And the dictionary won't be a printed book, it'll be available only digitally.

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I understand that progress has changed humanity since forever. Our memory had to be better before we figured out writing. Books did make it easier for us, because we no longer had to re-tell stories in full from memory. The benefit there was people being able to accumulate a greater amount of knowledge.
And a kid once asked my why he needed to learn math, when there are calculators that'll do the work for them. I told him that he HAD to understand what the calculator was doing... the underlying math that is going on.
...
I wonder if you can rig a cash register to short change the customer... by a very small amount... like 3 cents. How many customers would notice? My guess ifs that both clerk and customer take whatever the register tells them, as true.