I understand the jist of the conversation that started this, but I can tell you from experience. you won't get very far in the journeyman process of plumbing if you cannot use math functionally. A large part of the written test required is "roughing in" a house. Calculating the correct amount of supplies needed to finish a new construction project.
Math is every where, people don't realize how much they use it.
Statistics wouldn't be possibly without a functional knowledge of algebra and how numbers relate to each other. Some people grasp the concepts differently there is no doubt about it, but everyone uses math. whether it is in a simple question of "how long til we get there?" or an impossibly hard question like "why did MC hammer go broke?"...all of these things need math to solve. The problem solving concept is what you learn in algebra...the Pythagorean theorem isn't what you should take away, it is learning how to use something else to solve a problem in front of you. Proficiency in math is a good skill to acquire. Proficiency in meeting a challenge is even better. No one is asking a High School student to perform high level math. And in the rare occasion that a student is asked it is because they can handle it
Is this perhaps more arithmetic than math? I don't imagine the average plumber needs to know algebra let alone trig or calculus. My other question is, is it not possible for someone to be good at problem solving without knowing the intricacies of math?
Personally I'm all for letting people develop where they are most inclined and interested. There are a lot of very creative, right-brained people who have a very hard time making a living because we only reward the very luck or the very elite in most creative fields and over all we are more apt to reward people who are left-brained. I know an absolutely marvelous painter who lives in near abject poverty. Some day, perhaps his work will be discovered and recognized. I'd be willing to be almost all of us know someone like this.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I understand the jist of the conversation that started this, but I can tell you from experience. you won't get very far in the journeyman process of plumbing if you cannot use math functionally. A large part of the written test required is "roughing in" a house. Calculating the correct amount of supplies needed to finish a new construction project.
Math is every where, people don't realize how much they use it.
Statistics wouldn't be possibly without a functional knowledge of algebra and how numbers relate to each other. Some people grasp the concepts differently there is no doubt about it, but everyone uses math. whether it is in a simple question of "how long til we get there?" or an impossibly hard question like "why did MC hammer go broke?"...all of these things need math to solve. The problem solving concept is what you learn in algebra...the Pythagorean theorem isn't what you should take away, it is learning how to use something else to solve a problem in front of you. Proficiency in math is a good skill to acquire. Proficiency in meeting a challenge is even better. No one is asking a High School student to perform high level math. And in the rare occasion that a student is asked it is because they can handle it
I don't disagree, Mike - the plumber comment was regarding my support of vocational schools.
Math IS useful in many realms of life, as you mentioned above and as others have pointed out.
Plus, I just find a beauty in it...in its absoluteness, its truth.
I understand the jist of the conversation that started this, but I can tell you from experience. you won't get very far in the journeyman process of plumbing if you cannot use math functionally. A large part of the written test required is "roughing in" a house. Calculating the correct amount of supplies needed to finish a new construction project.
Math is every where, people don't realize how much they use it.
Statistics wouldn't be possibly without a functional knowledge of algebra and how numbers relate to each other. Some people grasp the concepts differently there is no doubt about it, but everyone uses math. whether it is in a simple question of "how long til we get there?" or an impossibly hard question like "why did MC hammer go broke?"...all of these things need math to solve. The problem solving concept is what you learn in algebra...the Pythagorean theorem isn't what you should take away, it is learning how to use something else to solve a problem in front of you. Proficiency in math is a good skill to acquire. Proficiency in meeting a challenge is even better. No one is asking a High School student to perform high level math. And in the rare occasion that a student is asked it is because they can handle it
Is this perhaps more arithmetic than math? I don't imagine the average plumber needs to know algebra let alone trig or calculus. My other question is, is it not possible for someone to be good at problem solving without knowing the intricacies of math?
Personally I'm all for letting people develop where they are most inclined and interested. There are a lot of very creative, right-brained people who have a very hard time making a living because we only reward the very luck or the very elite in most creative fields and over all we are more apt to reward people who are left-brained. I know an absolutely marvelous painter who lives in near abject poverty. Some day, perhaps his work will be discovered and recognized. I'd be willing to be almost all of us know someone like this.
for me that is like saying gas consumption issues is more of a car thing, not a gas operated vehicle thing.
There can be differences in problem focus, but math is math. complex equations or addition, it is all math. It is all about the concepts and finding a truth (not too many of those available for certain). Does a plumber need to know the Pythagorean theorem, probably not, would it help immensely when figuring out where and how far to dig trenches yes it would... how deep something must be built to get the proper angle of `fall` in their drain pipes to make sure they don't back up? (that was a tough lesson I learned...never go to work without a clear head...) It isn't just fitting pipes and guessing...I suppose one could always bring a million more parts than necessary to make sure they have enough...but who would you assume to be the more efficient plumber?
Logic is math based arguments. Breaking arguments down to their consisting parts allows us to find where the illogical or logical assumption was made that through off the end. That is math, not philosophy alone. These concepts are important to anyone wishing to be able to open their mind I think.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I don't disagree, Mike - the plumber comment was regarding my support of vocational schools.
Math IS useful in many realms of life, as you mentioned above and as others have pointed out.
Plus, I just find a beauty in it...in its absoluteness, its truth.
I didn't take it that way, just wanted to point out that, as a former new construction plumber, it wasn't just showing up and connecting pipes!!!
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
The irony is all around - some like music, can read music, but yet... algebra... too hard. Come on - you're embarrassing yourself.
Anyway, in my doctoral program's graduating class (economics), I was the only American student. Why do I bring this up? Simply because there were several Asians, several from Eastern Europe, one from Mexico, even one from Africa, etc. It was math intensive.
It drives me nuts to think that a typical American can't do math. The bottom line is the typical American doesn't like problem solving. We go to siri or google.
Math has a very, very, very important place in society - especially now. You look around and tell me about what rules the world - I say math-oriented subjects ---- statistics, finance, economics, engineering, etc. Anyone who believes math is a waste of time is foolish.
...
But, we don't need math any more because the cash registers don't have stupid numbers on them any more, instead, they have pictures of Big Mac and Chick-fil-A combos on the buttons. And you don't have to figure in the tax or do that really hard stuff... like figuring out how much stupid change you have to return.
It's called, 'Progress'.
...
Now... let's see what the Kardashians are up to this week.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
all in due time.... sigh. And the dictionary won't be a printed book, it'll be available only digitally.
...
I understand that progress has changed humanity since forever. Our memory had to be better before we figured out writing. Books did make it easier for us, because we no longer had to re-tell stories in full from memory. The benefit there was people being able to accumulate a greater amount of knowledge.
And a kid once asked my why he needed to learn math, when there are calculators that'll do the work for them. I told him that he HAD to understand what the calculator was doing... the underlying math that is going on.
...
I wonder if you can rig a cash register to short change the customer... by a very small amount... like 3 cents. How many customers would notice? My guess ifs that both clerk and customer take whatever the register tells them, as true.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
all in due time.... sigh. And the dictionary won't be a printed book, it'll be available only digitally.
...
I understand that progress has changed humanity since forever. Our memory had to be better before we figured out writing. Books did make it easier for us, because we no longer had to re-tell stories in full from memory. The benefit there was people being able to accumulate a greater amount of knowledge.
And a kid once asked my why he needed to learn math, when there are calculators that'll do the work for them. I told him that he HAD to understand what the calculator was doing... the underlying math that is going on.
...
I wonder if you can rig a cash register to short change the customer... by a very small amount... like 3 cents. How many customers would notice? My guess ifs that both clerk and customer take whatever the register tells them, as true.
you ever been to a grocery store on a saturday morning? PLENTY of people, I will call them village elders, would notice
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Adding new content to this 10c "Beta" site = hard... so, get rid of it .
EV Solo Boston 6/16/11
East Troy 9/3/11
East Troy 9/4/11
Amsterdam 6/26/12
Amsterdam 6/27/12
Wrigley Field 7/19-20/13
Worcester, MA 10/15/13
Worcester, MA 10/16/13
Hartford, CT 10/25/13
Seattle, WA 12/06/13
Denver, CO 10/22/14 Fenway 2016 #1
Fenway 2016 #2 Fenway 2018 #1 Fenway 2018 #2
Making high school easier is not helping the future.. Kids need to be pushed to learn. If you let them take the easy road, they will..
I took up to Calculus 2 before I graduated high school. Algebra was my first math class in high school. What aould the kids learn if they stopped learning math after middle school?! Nobody would know how to figure out real life problems...
Some people really live in their own world and dont understand the implicationsof their beliefs... :fp:
2003: 7/14 NJ ... 2006: 6/1 NJ, 6/3 NJ ... 2007: 8/5 IL ... 2008: 6/24 NY, 6/25 NY, 8/7 EV NJ ... 2009: 10/27 PA, 10/28 PA, 10/30 PA, 10/31 PA 2010: 5/20 NY, 5/21 NY ... 2011: 6/21 EV NY, 9/3 WI, 9/4 WI ... 2012: 9/2 PA, 9/22 GA ... 2013: 10/18 NY, 10/19 NY, 10/21 PA, 10/22 PA, 10/27 MD 2015: 9/23 NY, 9/26 NY ... 2016: 4/28 PA, 4/29 PA, 5/1 NY, 5/2 NY, 6/11 TN, 8/7 MA, 11/4 TOTD PA, 11/5 TOTD PA ... 2018: 8/10 WA 2022: 9/14 NJ ... 2024: 5/28 WA, 9/7 PA, 9/9 PA ---- http://imgur.com/a/nk0s7
algebra stays. it is time kids & adults buckeled down & studied. i never had algebra in high school. i was in special classes for kids that have issues. but in college i had algebra for 2 years straight. every quarter i took a math class. it was a frickin hoot. i studied algebra every single day sometimes for six or more hrs, i'm sure of it. i was constantly at the math tutor table, i had moved in on those math geeks and fell in love with difficult math.
if i can mustar up B's & C's i know for a fact others can do the same.
studying all that math plus working @ the fish hatchery and studying my environmental sciences programs... it aint fucking simple. no one ever said life was a walk in the park. it takes hard work and never giving up on what your dreams are.
never ever give in. never ever give up. that shit is instilled into me like nobodies business.
Comments
Is this perhaps more arithmetic than math? I don't imagine the average plumber needs to know algebra let alone trig or calculus. My other question is, is it not possible for someone to be good at problem solving without knowing the intricacies of math?
Personally I'm all for letting people develop where they are most inclined and interested. There are a lot of very creative, right-brained people who have a very hard time making a living because we only reward the very luck or the very elite in most creative fields and over all we are more apt to reward people who are left-brained. I know an absolutely marvelous painter who lives in near abject poverty. Some day, perhaps his work will be discovered and recognized. I'd be willing to be almost all of us know someone like this.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Math IS useful in many realms of life, as you mentioned above and as others have pointed out.
Plus, I just find a beauty in it...in its absoluteness, its truth.
for me that is like saying gas consumption issues is more of a car thing, not a gas operated vehicle thing.
There can be differences in problem focus, but math is math. complex equations or addition, it is all math. It is all about the concepts and finding a truth (not too many of those available for certain). Does a plumber need to know the Pythagorean theorem, probably not, would it help immensely when figuring out where and how far to dig trenches yes it would... how deep something must be built to get the proper angle of `fall` in their drain pipes to make sure they don't back up? (that was a tough lesson I learned...never go to work without a clear head...) It isn't just fitting pipes and guessing...I suppose one could always bring a million more parts than necessary to make sure they have enough...but who would you assume to be the more efficient plumber?
Logic is math based arguments. Breaking arguments down to their consisting parts allows us to find where the illogical or logical assumption was made that through off the end. That is math, not philosophy alone. These concepts are important to anyone wishing to be able to open their mind I think.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I didn't take it that way, just wanted to point out that, as a former new construction plumber, it wasn't just showing up and connecting pipes!!!
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
But, we don't need math any more because the cash registers don't have stupid numbers on them any more, instead, they have pictures of Big Mac and Chick-fil-A combos on the buttons. And you don't have to figure in the tax or do that really hard stuff... like figuring out how much stupid change you have to return.
It's called, 'Progress'.
...
Now... let's see what the Kardashians are up to this week.
Hail, Hail!!!
I think it's bad enough they're eliminating cursive writing, all of our kids won't be able to read cursive let alone write it...
I wonder when Websters going to enter LOL, BFF, IDK and other acronymns to the dictionary?
Hail, Hail!!!
all in due time.... sigh. And the dictionary won't be a printed book, it'll be available only digitally.
I understand that progress has changed humanity since forever. Our memory had to be better before we figured out writing. Books did make it easier for us, because we no longer had to re-tell stories in full from memory. The benefit there was people being able to accumulate a greater amount of knowledge.
And a kid once asked my why he needed to learn math, when there are calculators that'll do the work for them. I told him that he HAD to understand what the calculator was doing... the underlying math that is going on.
...
I wonder if you can rig a cash register to short change the customer... by a very small amount... like 3 cents. How many customers would notice? My guess ifs that both clerk and customer take whatever the register tells them, as true.
Hail, Hail!!!
you ever been to a grocery store on a saturday morning? PLENTY of people, I will call them village elders, would notice
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
East Troy 9/3/11
East Troy 9/4/11
Amsterdam 6/26/12
Amsterdam 6/27/12
Wrigley Field 7/19-20/13
Worcester, MA 10/15/13
Worcester, MA 10/16/13
Hartford, CT 10/25/13
Seattle, WA 12/06/13
Denver, CO 10/22/14
Fenway 2016 #1
Fenway 2016 #2
Fenway 2018 #1
Fenway 2018 #2
I took up to Calculus 2 before I graduated high school. Algebra was my first math class in high school. What aould the kids learn if they stopped learning math after middle school?! Nobody would know how to figure out real life problems...
Some people really live in their own world and dont understand the implicationsof their beliefs... :fp:
2010: 5/20 NY, 5/21 NY ... 2011: 6/21 EV NY, 9/3 WI, 9/4 WI ... 2012: 9/2 PA, 9/22 GA ... 2013: 10/18 NY, 10/19 NY, 10/21 PA, 10/22 PA, 10/27 MD
2015: 9/23 NY, 9/26 NY ... 2016: 4/28 PA, 4/29 PA, 5/1 NY, 5/2 NY, 6/11 TN, 8/7 MA, 11/4 TOTD PA, 11/5 TOTD PA ... 2018: 8/10 WA
2022: 9/14 NJ ... 2024: 5/28 WA, 9/7 PA, 9/9 PA ---- http://imgur.com/a/nk0s7
( in case you don't get it )
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
algebra stays. it is time kids & adults buckeled down & studied. i never had algebra in high school. i was in special classes for kids that have issues. but in college i had algebra for 2 years straight. every quarter i took a math class. it was a frickin hoot. i studied algebra every single day sometimes for six or more hrs, i'm sure of it. i was constantly at the math tutor table, i had moved in on those math geeks and fell in love with difficult math.
if i can mustar up B's & C's i know for a fact others can do the same.
studying all that math plus working @ the fish hatchery and studying my environmental sciences programs... it aint fucking simple. no one ever said life was a walk in the park. it takes hard work and never giving up on what your dreams are.
never ever give in. never ever give up. that shit is instilled into me like nobodies business.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce