algebra = hard...should we get rid of it?

mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
edited August 2012 in A Moving Train
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opini ... wanted=all


wow. That is all I can say. My favorite part of the article was here:

The toll mathematics takes begins early. To our nation’s shame, one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school. In South Carolina, 34 percent fell away in 2008-9, according to national data released last year; for Nevada, it was 45 percent. Most of the educators I’ve talked with cite algebra as the major academic reason.

Shirley Bagwell, a longtime Tennessee teacher, warns that “to expect all students to master algebra will cause more students to drop out.” For those who stay in school, there are often “exit exams,” almost all of which contain an algebra component. In Oklahoma, 33 percent failed to pass last year, as did 35 percent in West Virginia


:fp:

honestly Ms Bagwell...no one is expected to master any academic subject to graduate high school.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,158
    Has she presented a theorem to prove this theory?
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Jason P wrote:
    Has she presented a theorem to prove this theory?


    (1h x 1s)/1y = .43s

    Where i = number of teachers
    h = teachers who think algebra is hard,
    s = number of students being short changed by a teacher who thought algebra was hard,
    y = number of years being taught algebra



    I think this formula sums it up
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,158
    mikepegg44 wrote:


    (1h x 1s)/1y = .43s

    Where i = number of teachers
    h = teachers who think algebra is hard,
    s = number of students being short changed by a teacher who thought algebra was hard,
    y = number of years being taught algebra



    I think this formula sums it up
    :lol:

    That's a start.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    higher level math sucked for me. i made it through calc in high school and i really struggled with that. fortunately i did not need more than college algebra and several stats and a couple of chemistry classes for my degrees.

    i can see how algebra and complex math could discourage people from going into certain fields. i know people who dropped out of high school and college because no matter how much tutoring the had, they could just not grasp it.

    i think they should continue to teach it, because if they don't it will dumb down the education system for the rest of us. i admit it, to me algebra and its more complex cousins were my toughest subjects.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    I took my college algebra 2 last semester... no more for me, thanks. :)
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    i think they should continue to teach it, because if they don't it will dumb down the education system for the rest of us.
    Yes!

    (plus it CAN be useful down the road)

    Good lord, how did we get to this place of "oh, poor things; it's too difficult...let's not even bother"?

    Really sad.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    find_x_here_it_is.jpg
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Johnny AbruzzoJohnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 11,802
    Diagramming sentences is hard too. Should we not learn grammar? Oh wait, we can't do grammar in this country. (or math)

    Can't you go to some sort of vocational school instead if you don't want to learn hard shit? What does a high school diploma mean anyway?
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,461
    find_x_here_it_is.jpg

    Yeah! My kind of math! :D

    The Replacements said, "I hate music, it's got too many notes". Well, I say, "I hate math, it's got too many numbers".
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    I think I'd be down to take a class on math history or theory. Some of that shit is mind blowing. :shock:
  • MotoDCMotoDC Posts: 947
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,461
    I think I'd be down to take a class on math history or theory. Some of that shit is mind blowing. :shock:

    Blows my mind just thinking about it. In my last few year of college my GPA was close to 4 but I'd have never graduated if I hadn't found a way around the math requirement. My left brain must have a few damaged synaptic gaps between neurons. :lol: So instead, I got around it by taking a course on developing math curriculum for elementary school. ;)
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Diagramming sentences is hard too. Should we not learn grammar? Oh wait, we can't do grammar in this country. (or math)

    Can't you go to some sort of vocational school instead if you don't want to learn hard shit? What does a high school diploma mean anyway?
    This is a good question. A diploma means (to me, anyway) that you've learned the basics to the point where you can communicate clearly, solve basic issues, apply some of the theories to everyday life.

    I'm all for vocational schools too. Study a skill - a valuable one - and then put it to use. Many make a fine living that way.

    (I wish I'd become a plumber!)
  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    brianlux wrote:

    Blows my mind just thinking about it. In my last few year of college my GPA was close to 4 but I'd have never graduated if I hadn't found a way around the math requirement. My left brain must have a few damaged synaptic gaps between neurons. :lol: So instead, I got around it by taking a course on developing math curriculum for elementary school. ;)

    I found a way around most of it... Philosophy... :lol:
  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    School should be hard and if anything we are far to easy on these kids. Which is exactly why the US continues to lag behind all other western nations in terms of all or most subjects. We need to quit rewarding them for "trying" and reward them for doing. I sucked (!!!!) at any math so I got a tutor. Only C I had in high school or college.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895

    I found a way around most of it... Philosophy... :lol:


    Or history for me :) Now THAT I am good at!
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    riotgrl wrote:


    Or history for me :) Now THAT I am good at!

    They let us take a critical thinking Philosophy class... can't do it on History alone, unfortunately.

    Still have to take the University required Algebra 2 class which was a lot like high school Algebra... only easier, and you get to use a calculator the whole time.
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,619
    Best Simpsons line ever:

    Teacher: Bart, do you even know your multiplication tables?

    Bart: I know of them!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    I found a way around most of it... Philosophy... :lol:
    ...
    Philosophy... where every answer is the correct answer... depending upon the observer... and the physical space he occupys... wherther he even exists or not.
    ...
    We got a lot of our critical thinking skills from mathematics. Because mathematics contains some of the basic known truths in the Universe. Most equations have one answer... which is true. Sometimes the answer is singular... sometimes it is all... sometimes it is null, depending upon the equation. And we have to get there by critical thought.
    Do we need it in every day life... probably not. Although our everyday lives are much easier because of people who used critical thought to bring things like electricity and running water into our lives.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Philosophy... where every answer is the correct answer... depending upon the observer... and the physical space he occupys... wherther he even exists or not.
    ...
    We got a lot of our critical thinking skills from mathematics. Because mathematics contains some of the basic known truths in the Universe. Most equations have one answer... which is true. Sometimes the answer is singular... sometimes it is all... sometimes it is null, depending upon the equation. And we have to get there by critical thought.
    Do we need it in every day life... probably not. Although our everyday lives are much easier because of people who used critical thought to bring things like electricity and running water into our lives.

    Yes, Allegory of the Cave is going to suit me well. :D
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225

    Yes, Allegory of the Cave is going to suit me well. :D
    ...
    I am partial to the truth I read on a filthy shithouse wall at a Texaco station off the I-5 near Bakersfield, "I Stink, therefore, I Am".
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I am partial to the truth I read on a filthy shithouse wall at a Texaco station off the I-5 near Bakersfield, "I Stink, therefore, I Am".

    :lol:
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,207
    riotgrl wrote:
    School should be hard and if anything we are far to easy on these kids. Which is exactly why the US continues to lag behind all other western nations in terms of all or most subjects. We need to quit rewarding them for "trying" and reward them for doing. I sucked (!!!!) at any math so I got a tutor. Only C I had in high school or college.

    I think the expectation has been raised over time regarding math curriculum. Most high school's math requirements that I've seen are a year ahead of what it was back in my day (84'-88'), and the school I went to was no slouch. You have more people saying it's too hard because the requirements have been raised, where before you could get a diploma by just scraping through knuckle head math and be done with it.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,207
    find_x_here_it_is.jpg

    And people say cursive writing is dead!
  • RW81233RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    I am for math and quantitative reasoning to an extent is useful. However, is there a way to quantify human thought and action? Maybe but it's an equation that I don't think anyone is going to find, and if they do they will surely be rich as shit. Either way keep algebra methinks.
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    Ugh. This topic makes me cringe.

    The irony is all around - some like music, can read music, but yet... algebra... too hard. Come on - you're embarrassing yourself.

    Anyway, in my doctoral program's graduating class (economics), I was the only American student. Why do I bring this up? Simply because there were several Asians, several from Eastern Europe, one from Mexico, even one from Africa, etc. It was math intensive.

    It drives me nuts to think that a typical American can't do math. The bottom line is the typical American doesn't like problem solving. We go to siri or google.

    Math has a very, very, very important place in society - especially now. You look around and tell me about what rules the world - I say math-oriented subjects ---- statistics, finance, economics, engineering, etc. Anyone who believes math is a waste of time is foolish.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

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  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    Go Beavers wrote:

    I think the expectation has been raised over time regarding math curriculum. Most high school's math requirements that I've seen are a year ahead of what it was back in my day (84'-88'), and the school I went to was no slouch. You have more people saying it's too hard because the requirements have been raised, where before you could get a diploma by just scraping through knuckle head math and be done with it.


    I see what you're saying but disagree a bit. I graduated close to when you did and only certain people were encouraged/allowed to take upper level math classes whereas today most kids are expected to take these classes which may tax their ability to perform at high levels (which I think is the same thing you're saying?). I think I disagree because of the math curriculum at elementary levels. They are trying to teach abstract concepts in Kindergarten when these kids are still concrete thinkers instead of focusing on the skills they will need later to become abstract thinkers. Also, we are too easy on these kids in terms of expectations. I teach at a school that is a top 150 (according to Newsweek, anyway :) ) and when the kids struggle in math, it is someone else's fault, certainly not their own. These are not dumb kids but very few seek out extra help or tutoring when it gets too hard.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    inlet13 wrote:
    Ugh. This topic makes me cringe.

    The irony is all around - some like music, can read music, but yet... algebra... too hard. Come on - you're embarrassing yourself.

    Anyway, in my doctoral program's graduating class (economics), I was the only American student. Why do I bring this up? Simply because there were several Asians, several from Eastern Europe, one from Mexico, even one from Africa, etc. It was math intensive.

    It drives me nuts to think that a typical American can't do math. The bottom line is the typical American doesn't like problem solving. We go to siri or google.

    Math has a very, very, very important place in society - especially now. You look around and tell me about what rules the world - I say math-oriented subjects ---- statistics, finance, economics, engineering, etc. Anyone who believes math is a waste of time is foolish.


    Well, I think our culture is in dire need of a mindset shift. I struggled to do algebra, and geometry was nearly incomprehensible to me but I DID it - with a lot of help from a great algebra teacher and a great geometry tutor when I had a terrible teacher. We desperately need problem solving skills which would be reinforced by all the subjects you mentioned and critical thinking skills which would be reinforced by social sciences, art. etc. The change needs to occur in order for us to be competitive with other countries since we are in a global economy. We need to make our schools year round and we need to move away from the expectation that every kid should go to college (which is different than ensuring every kid who wants to and is able CAN go to college). There should be no shame in vocational/technical education and we need to start moving towards a better educational model.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    this explains why people are thinking of voting for mitt ... :lol::lol:
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    hedonist wrote:
    (I wish I'd become a plumber!)


    I understand the jist of the conversation that started this, but I can tell you from experience. you won't get very far in the journeyman process of plumbing if you cannot use math functionally. A large part of the written test required is "roughing in" a house. Calculating the correct amount of supplies needed to finish a new construction project.

    Math is every where, people don't realize how much they use it.

    Statistics wouldn't be possibly without a functional knowledge of algebra and how numbers relate to each other. Some people grasp the concepts differently there is no doubt about it, but everyone uses math. whether it is in a simple question of "how long til we get there?" or an impossibly hard question like "why did MC hammer go broke?"...all of these things need math to solve. The problem solving concept is what you learn in algebra...the Pythagorean theorem isn't what you should take away, it is learning how to use something else to solve a problem in front of you. Proficiency in math is a good skill to acquire. Proficiency in meeting a challenge is even better. No one is asking a High School student to perform high level math. And in the rare occasion that a student is asked it is because they can handle it
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
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