I'm gathering that no one thinks big picture here. The U.S., compared to the rest of the world is far from a truly diverse country. Anyone would know that if they stepped out of it.
:fp: Can we add this post to the list of "10 Things Canadians Don't Know About America"?
Anyhow, of course traveling through the States isn't going to get you the same experience as actually visiting all the "original" countries/cultures represented in the States, but it's not nearly as far off as you suggest.
I admit I skipped a couple pages of this thread (though only a couple), so maybe I missed something, but are people really claiming the US isn't diverse? I mean, I just don't...what? Really? Jeanwah, did you just google "American stereotypes" and paste it into your post? It's pretty hilarious that you don't think your own attitude is reflected in your post, as if your post is some statement of unassailable fact.
If we were painting Muslims or Jews or Canadians or Chinese with such broad strokes, some of you on this board would be flipping the fuck out or at least laughing your asses off at the ridiculousness of it. Either response would be appropriate, as it is here.
completely missed the boat on this one
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,426
This feels like we've reached an impasse here and the last four or five pages of this discussion have focused on traveling and a debate about whether we are as diverse as the rest of the world. I'm not pointing fingers-- I also have talked about traveling and I chimed in on my believe that we are not nearly as diverse as the rest of the world.
But IMHO I think we are passing over a rich opportunity to take a good look at some interesting things about American self-awareness-- or our lack of (myself included)-- by way of the excellent, well written, thought provoking OP article.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
:fp: Can we add this post to the list of "10 Things Canadians Don't Know About America"?
Anyhow, of course traveling through the States isn't going to get you the same experience as actually visiting all the "original" countries/cultures represented in the States, but it's not nearly as far off as you suggest.
I admit I skipped a couple pages of this thread (though only a couple), so maybe I missed something, but are people really claiming the US isn't diverse? I mean, I just don't...what? Really? Jeanwah, did you just google "American stereotypes" and paste it into your post? It's pretty hilarious that you don't think your own attitude is reflected in your post, as if your post is some statement of unassailable fact.
If we were painting Muslims or Jews or Canadians or Chinese with such broad strokes, some of you on this board would be flipping the fuck out or at least laughing your asses off at the ridiculousness of it. Either response would be appropriate, as it is here.
completely missed the boat on this one
Which boat?
- The one where we discuss the US as if every stereotype out there is equally applicable to everyone?
- The one where we discuss whether the US is diverse?
- The one where we discuss whether traveling the US is equivalent to traveling the world in terms of diversity (which it isn't -- and which I don't think anyone was suggesting literally -- but is not nearly so pointless as you imply)?
- The one where you think the only legit Mexican food in the US is in NYC? (lol really?)
Pretty sure those are the "boats" I was on in my last post, which seem pretty in line with much of the thread and commentary.
Is anyone really suggesting that the US is as diverse as "the rest of the world" as a whole? I certainly am not. In comparison to any other single country? I'm not sure, but I'd say the US stands up pretty well in terms of diversity. However one point of view to consider is that the difficulty (primarily in terms of cost and time) of seeing enough of the rest of the world to get this "diversity" everyone is discussing is pretty high in comparison to an American seeing large swaths of his/her own country.
by way of the excellent, well written, thought provoking OP article.
Well, that;s certainly debatable too. Seems more like a blog post about generalizations of the people of a country of nearly 313 million people (documented people )
the boat that is basically discussing that americans are ignorant of other cultures and that any belief that the "diversity" in the US is somehow going to compensate for that ignorance is false ... as far as generalizations - i believe the OP stated succinctly in his first post that we are talking about generalizations ... pointing out that your aunt betty is a scholar in post-cold war russian culture doesn't really change anything ...
This feels like we've reached an impasse here and the last four or five pages of this discussion have focused on traveling and a debate about whether we are as diverse as the rest of the world. I'm not pointing fingers-- I also have talked about traveling and I chimed in on my believe that we are not nearly as diverse as the rest of the world.
But IMHO I think we are passing over a rich opportunity to take a good look at some interesting things about American self-awareness-- or our lack of (myself included)-- by way of the excellent, well written, thought provoking OP article.
I agree. Let's get this back on track and discuss urban planning and transportation modes.
Jason, btw I dont think CR is inexpensive. I was surprised to see many things were similar in price, but I was in several touristy areas and only a few real good local spots.
I'm going to the Sierra Nevada range! I like the culture of black bears, mountain lions, and great horned owls much better then people anyway.
Amen to that....
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
the boat that is basically discussing that americans are ignorant of other cultures and that any belief that the "diversity" in the US is somehow going to compensate for that ignorance is false ... as far as generalizations - i believe the OP stated succinctly in his first post that we are talking about generalizations ... pointing out that your aunt betty is a scholar in post-cold war russian culture doesn't really change anything ...
Not sure if you're doing it on purpose, but when you say "discussing THAT amercians are ignorant..." you're not "discussing" anything at all. You're stating your opinion which is, again, quite broad, and based on your own ignorance as displayed in your last post that I quoted. Perhaps it was just lazy word choice, but if not you can ride that boat all you want. Also, nothing in my post was remotely as off-topic your last sentence implies. Gimmeabreak(andsometruth).
Again, I never said nor do I believe that the US is as diverse as the rest of the world together. That would be an unimaginably ridiculous statement to make.
... like really!?? ... stereotypes and generalizations serve a purpose ...
Maybe so but they need to be used very carefully because it's easy to cross the line into bigotry. One could pick any number of statistics out there and make generalizations about them. Doesn't make those generalizations true or useful.
But IMHO I think we are passing over a rich opportunity to take a good look at some interesting things about American self-awareness-- or our lack of (myself included)-- by way of the excellent, well written, thought provoking OP article.
Self-awareness, looking at one's self from a different perspective - opening of the eyes, mind and spirit! Experiencing different cultures (and they do not have to be far removed from 'ours'), different viewpoints - seeing things with someone else's eyes can be enlightening!
Yes, these past few pages have focused on travel, whether one can or can't travel due to finances, logistics, etc. (all perfectly reasonable reasons) but for me that's not the main thing. What I found a bit disconcerting (and putting the 'excuses' for lack of travel aside) is that some have expressed a complete lack of desire to expand their horizons abroad, to engage with different cultures, to see what they see in us (whether an accurate characterisation or not). Just looking in from the outside for a change.
And yes, this article is full of generalisations (but he did say it was) but, again as said, this could be for any culture/nationality.
"The point is we don’t really get perspective on what’s close to us until we spend time away from it. Just like you didn’t realize the weird quirks and nuances of your family until you left and spent time with others, the same is true for country and culture. You often don’t see what’s messed up about your country and culture until you step outside of it.
And so even though this article is going to come across as fairly scathing, I want my American readers to know: some of the stuff we do, some of the stuff that we always assumed was normal, it’s kind of screwed up. And that’s OK. Because that’s true with every culture. It’s just easier to spot it in others (i.e., the French) so we don’t always notice it in ourselves."
After reading some of the comments about diversity, I wonder if a definition of diversity is in order? Certainly, we live in a very geographically large country and there are definitely regional differences but you know you are in America regardless if you are in Iowa or Kentucky or California. Some regional differences that I note are really small but might tell you a lot about a region. For instance, in the South if you ask for a Coke, you will probably be asked what kind? Most people in the South don't say pop or soda. That is some level of diversity and there are a million different things we could discuss that would be particular to our region. However, if we look at what outsiders (other nations) identify as American those would be the same in all regions. Like we probably all dress pretty similarly - blue jeans and t-shirts are a staple of American fashion. Just an observation, for what it's worth
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I'm gathering that no one thinks big picture here. The U.S., compared to the rest of the world is far from a truly diverse country. Anyone would know that if they stepped out of it.
I have stepped out of it....and stepped into....in more than one place....of course, we are not as diverse as the rest of the world....what country is as diverse as the rest of the planet, seriously :roll: . It is the height of either ignorance or arrogance or self hatred to say that the United States is not a diverse country. If one stays at only national chain hotels, eats at national chain restaurants and shops at national chain stores while visiting other parts of the country, yes, it appears to be a mono-culture. Our media looks the same because the same companies probably own it. The diversity is there, one just has to look for with an open mind and eyes. One can experience diversity traveling through the US....is it as diverse as traveling through Europe, of course not....but traveling through Europe may not be everyone's "cup of tea."
Despite of a century plus of flight, some people still refuse to get on airplanes....and that's their right....and a bunch of the 99% could not afford to travel to and through another continent. I am not going to look down my nose at such people because they either can't or don't want to travel abroad. It's their right. Just like it is my right to not shop at Wal-Mart, not to watch NASCAR or buy the music from the twit who won American Idol.
BTW, the Big Picture is nothing without the tiny details.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
the boat that is basically discussing that americans are ignorant of other cultures and that any belief that the "diversity" in the US is somehow going to compensate for that ignorance is false ... as far as generalizations - i believe the OP stated succinctly in his first post that we are talking about generalizations ... pointing out that your aunt betty is a scholar in post-cold war russian culture doesn't really change anything ...
Not sure if you're doing it on purpose, but when you say "discussing THAT amercians are ignorant..." you're not "discussing" anything at all. You're stating your opinion which is, again, quite broad, and based on your own ignorance as displayed in your last post that I quoted. Perhaps it was just lazy word choice, but if not you can ride that boat all you want. Also, nothing in my post was remotely as off-topic your last sentence implies. Gimmeabreak(andsometruth).
Again, I never said nor do I believe that the US is as diverse as the rest of the world together. That would be an unimaginably ridiculous statement to make.
... like really!?? ... stereotypes and generalizations serve a purpose ...
Maybe so but they need to be used very carefully because it's easy to cross the line into bigotry. One could pick any number of statistics out there and make generalizations about them. Doesn't make those generalizations true or useful.
of course its not applicable to everyone ... who even thinks this?
You should read this thread more critically b/c that's exactly how many folks are coming off.
it's really a matter of interpretation ... if you want to interpret it as bigotry - that's your choice ... i don't see it that way at all ... but another thing i have always generalized about americans are they are extremely nationalistic and proud and it doesn't surprise me that you are defensive about these topics ...
and it's no wonder that many of the things the OP put forth continue to hold true ...
... but another thing i have always generalized about americans are they are extremely nationalistic and proud and it doesn't surprise me that you are defensive about these topics ...
and it's no wonder that many of the things the OP put forth continue to hold true ...
After reading some of the comments about diversity, I wonder if a definition of diversity is in order? Certainly, we live in a very geographically large country and there are definitely regional differences but you know you are in America regardless if you are in Iowa or Kentucky or California. Some regional differences that I note are really small but might tell you a lot about a region. For instance, in the South if you ask for a Coke, you will probably be asked what kind? Most people in the South don't say pop or soda. That is some level of diversity and there are a million different things we could discuss that would be particular to our region. However, if we look at what outsiders (other nations) identify as American those would be the same in all regions. Like we probably all dress pretty similarly - blue jeans and t-shirts are a staple of American fashion. Just an observation, for what it's worth
That's a very worthy topic, one that could easily support its own thread. And even once you define diversity (e.g., language, religion, culture (itself far too broad to be used in a definition of something else), race, political viewpoints...), how do you determine the "quantity" of each that a given country has? For example, many, many languages are spoken in the US as a result of how much immigration we see, but if you look at signs and/or "official" languages, you'd probably say there are only 1 or 2 (English and Spanish). So which "counts" for this little debate?
Yes, these past few pages have focused on travel, whether one can or can't travel due to finances, logistics, etc. (all perfectly reasonable reasons) but for me that's not the main thing. What I found a bit disconcerting (and putting the 'excuses' for lack of travel aside) is that some have expressed a complete lack of desire to expand their horizons abroad, to engage with different cultures, to see what they see in us (whether an accurate characterisation or not). Just looking in from the outside for a change.
And yes, this article is full of generalisations (but he did say it was) but, again as said, this could be for any culture/nationality.
"The point is we don’t really get perspective on what’s close to us until we spend time away from it. Just like you didn’t realize the weird quirks and nuances of your family until you left and spent time with others, the same is true for country and culture. You often don’t see what’s messed up about your country and culture until you step outside of it.
And so even though this article is going to come across as fairly scathing, I want my American readers to know: some of the stuff we do, some of the stuff that we always assumed was normal, it’s kind of screwed up. And that’s OK. Because that’s true with every culture. It’s just easier to spot it in others (i.e., the French) so we don’t always notice it in ourselves."
Yeah, I totally agree redrock on the bolded part. The fact that the desire of not traveling at all outside the country became an argument is pretty troubling. And I find the inherent defense of some swearing how diverse they think this country is is a verification of not needing to see any others.
BTW, the Big Picture is nothing without the tiny details.
What a crock. :roll:
I would hate to live my life with your attitude.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
The U.S is like five countries in one. The South may as well be another country from any East Coast, or West Coast city.
And a place like the Grand Canyon, Mesa Verde, is a World away from any city.
Says the person who lives in China... :roll:
It's not as diverse as you may think. Regions are definitely different topographically and cuisine-wise, society is basically the same. Everyone has at least one tv set and cell phone, speaks English and/or Spanish (thanks to immigrants from Mexico - not a bad thing imo), values Walmart, individualism, capitalism and American Idol, hates the president and socialism, is status and money-obsessed, lacks empathy, may have a weight problem, is over-worked, stressed out and is likely fearful of anything radically different. These things are the American way. We're not that diverse at all.
What does my living in China have to do with it? Are you suggesting that because I live in China, that I've never traveled across America? How did you arrive at that huge leap of logic?
This feels like we've reached an impasse here and the last four or five pages of this discussion have focused on traveling and a debate about whether we are as diverse as the rest of the world. I'm not pointing fingers-- I also have talked about traveling and I chimed in on my believe that we are not nearly as diverse as the rest of the world.
But IMHO I think we are passing over a rich opportunity to take a good look at some interesting things about American self-awareness-- or our lack of (myself included)-- by way of the excellent, well written, thought provoking OP article.
can you tell me what you mean by this statement?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
BTW, the Big Picture is nothing without the tiny details.
What a crock. :roll:
i thought what tybird said here was beautiful, intelligent & confucius like, not a crock.
The rest was fine, but when boggled down by details, it prohibits one from seeing the big picture. No details are necessary to see the big picture, that's why it's a crock to say otherwise.
i thought what tybird said here was beautiful, intelligent & confucius like, not a crock.
The rest was fine, but when boggled down by details, it prohibits one from seeing the big picture. No details are necessary to see the big picture, that's why it's a crock to say otherwise.
perhaps diversity is in the little things. :think:
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,426
This feels like we've reached an impasse here and the last four or five pages of this discussion have focused on traveling and a debate about whether we are as diverse as the rest of the world. I'm not pointing fingers-- I also have talked about traveling and I chimed in on my believe that we are not nearly as diverse as the rest of the world.
But IMHO I think we are passing over a rich opportunity to take a good look at some interesting things about American self-awareness-- or our lack of (myself included)-- by way of the excellent, well written, thought provoking OP article.
can you tell me what you mean by this statement?
Catefrances, if you mean the underlined sentence, I'm speaking from my somewhat limited experience- I've traveled all over the U.S. have lived in or spent a good deal of time in a fair number of states but have only been to Italy, the Bahamas, Mexico and Canada outside the U.S). My perception is that there is less cultural diversity in America than there is world wide. I also base this statement on the many detailed stories my sister has told me about her travels to many countries all over the world including some very remote parts of the world.
If you are referring to the last statement in my post, I'm saying that in my opinion the OP article offers several thought provoking ideas worthy of discussion but the thread seems to be narrowly focused on the themes of travel and diversity.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
completely missed the boat on this one
But IMHO I think we are passing over a rich opportunity to take a good look at some interesting things about American self-awareness-- or our lack of (myself included)-- by way of the excellent, well written, thought provoking OP article.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
- The one where we discuss the US as if every stereotype out there is equally applicable to everyone?
- The one where we discuss whether the US is diverse?
- The one where we discuss whether traveling the US is equivalent to traveling the world in terms of diversity (which it isn't -- and which I don't think anyone was suggesting literally -- but is not nearly so pointless as you imply)?
- The one where you think the only legit Mexican food in the US is in NYC? (lol really?)
Pretty sure those are the "boats" I was on in my last post, which seem pretty in line with much of the thread and commentary.
Is anyone really suggesting that the US is as diverse as "the rest of the world" as a whole? I certainly am not. In comparison to any other single country? I'm not sure, but I'd say the US stands up pretty well in terms of diversity. However one point of view to consider is that the difficulty (primarily in terms of cost and time) of seeing enough of the rest of the world to get this "diversity" everyone is discussing is pretty high in comparison to an American seeing large swaths of his/her own country.
Well, that;s certainly debatable too. Seems more like a blog post about generalizations of the people of a country of nearly 313 million people (documented people
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/17/world/mea ... ?hpt=hp_c1
:fp: ... like really!?? ... stereotypes and generalizations serve a purpose ... of course its not applicable to everyone ... who even thinks this?
feel free to start a thread about canadians or tibetans ... i've been to a few places in this world ... i can contribute ...
I agree. Let's get this back on track and discuss urban planning and transportation modes.
Again, I never said nor do I believe that the US is as diverse as the rest of the world together. That would be an unimaginably ridiculous statement to make.
Maybe so but they need to be used very carefully because it's easy to cross the line into bigotry. One could pick any number of statistics out there and make generalizations about them. Doesn't make those generalizations true or useful.
You should read this thread more critically b/c that's exactly how many folks are coming off.
Self-awareness, looking at one's self from a different perspective - opening of the eyes, mind and spirit! Experiencing different cultures (and they do not have to be far removed from 'ours'), different viewpoints - seeing things with someone else's eyes can be enlightening!
Yes, these past few pages have focused on travel, whether one can or can't travel due to finances, logistics, etc. (all perfectly reasonable reasons) but for me that's not the main thing. What I found a bit disconcerting (and putting the 'excuses' for lack of travel aside) is that some have expressed a complete lack of desire to expand their horizons abroad, to engage with different cultures, to see what they see in us (whether an accurate characterisation or not). Just looking in from the outside for a change.
And yes, this article is full of generalisations (but he did say it was) but, again as said, this could be for any culture/nationality.
"The point is we don’t really get perspective on what’s close to us until we spend time away from it. Just like you didn’t realize the weird quirks and nuances of your family until you left and spent time with others, the same is true for country and culture. You often don’t see what’s messed up about your country and culture until you step outside of it.
And so even though this article is going to come across as fairly scathing, I want my American readers to know: some of the stuff we do, some of the stuff that we always assumed was normal, it’s kind of screwed up. And that’s OK. Because that’s true with every culture. It’s just easier to spot it in others (i.e., the French) so we don’t always notice it in ourselves."
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Despite of a century plus of flight, some people still refuse to get on airplanes....and that's their right....and a bunch of the 99% could not afford to travel to and through another continent. I am not going to look down my nose at such people because they either can't or don't want to travel abroad. It's their right. Just like it is my right to not shop at Wal-Mart, not to watch NASCAR or buy the music from the twit who won American Idol.
BTW, the Big Picture is nothing without the tiny details.
it's really a matter of interpretation ... if you want to interpret it as bigotry - that's your choice ... i don't see it that way at all ... but another thing i have always generalized about americans are they are extremely nationalistic and proud and it doesn't surprise me that you are defensive about these topics ...
and it's no wonder that many of the things the OP put forth continue to hold true ...
That changed drastically after 9.11.01
Yeah, I totally agree redrock on the bolded part. The fact that the desire of not traveling at all outside the country became an argument is pretty troubling. And I find the inherent defense of some swearing how diverse they think this country is is a verification of not needing to see any others.
What a crock. :roll:
What does my living in China have to do with it? Are you suggesting that because I live in China, that I've never traveled across America? How did you arrive at that huge leap of logic?
Looks like you could do worse:
Belize is known for it's beauty and that includes the beautiful Belize girls: http://www.be-an-online-travel-agent.co ... -girls.jpg
Also, English is the National language.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
can you tell me what you mean by this statement?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Likewise.
The rest was fine, but when boggled down by details, it prohibits one from seeing the big picture. No details are necessary to see the big picture, that's why it's a crock to say otherwise.
perhaps diversity is in the little things. :think:
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Catefrances, if you mean the underlined sentence, I'm speaking from my somewhat limited experience- I've traveled all over the U.S. have lived in or spent a good deal of time in a fair number of states but have only been to Italy, the Bahamas, Mexico and Canada outside the U.S). My perception is that there is less cultural diversity in America than there is world wide. I also base this statement on the many detailed stories my sister has told me about her travels to many countries all over the world including some very remote parts of the world.
If you are referring to the last statement in my post, I'm saying that in my opinion the OP article offers several thought provoking ideas worthy of discussion but the thread seems to be narrowly focused on the themes of travel and diversity.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"