US Citizens, do you believe in the Constitution?
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Do you believe it is the law of the land or a simple piece of paper written during simpler times? I'm not picking any single Amendment, I'm talking about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as a whole.
Do we follow it, or should we give up liberty for security? Do we follow it, or should we ignore sections of it if it means allowing the general government the ability to obtain from one to provide to another?
The reason I ask is that there is a Youtube video going viral where a AZ Republican State Senator (IIRC) says that only 50% of the people even care about it, so they (politicians) should be able to do what they need to since the public doesn't seem to care.
Do we follow it, or should we give up liberty for security? Do we follow it, or should we ignore sections of it if it means allowing the general government the ability to obtain from one to provide to another?
The reason I ask is that there is a Youtube video going viral where a AZ Republican State Senator (IIRC) says that only 50% of the people even care about it, so they (politicians) should be able to do what they need to since the public doesn't seem to care.
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But, i DO believe EMPHATICALLY in The Constitution of the United States of America.
I do not harbor any sort of sentimental naivety about the founders being perfect saints, or even agreeing with each other on all points. However I have read enough actual history to understand that they were collectively in more-or-less agreement about the most fundamental questions.
Man has INHERENT, INALIENABLE, RIGHTS.
These rights were being collectively infringed by the British Monarchy.
These people (our founders) were SO worried about this infringement that they severed all ties with Britain through a bloody and horrible war ... their feelings were SO STRONG in resentment of the Crown and it's failings that even ones like Franklin who were older, and had been a staunch supporter of the King in his day (and who was a Mason & a Rosicrucian - so they say), DISOWNED HIS OWN SON for his continued support of the King.
Our founders were DEADLY serious about the need to SECURE THEIR LIBERTY and maintain it.
Failure to adhere to the constitution has been, JUST AS THEY WARNED US REPEATEDLY, the beginning of the fall of our great nation (regardless of your relatively minor gripes against it).
The social engineering plotted by the modern elite in order to dissuade nationalism and encourage "world federalism" has worked all too well. All i hear now is idiots and dolts screaming that "the constitution is an outdated piece of parchment" and that collective democracy is somehow better and "more fair" than a representative Constitutional Republic.
This notion is the farce of all farces.
There is no security in mob rule,
and there is no hope for our nation (or the world) if we do not redouble our efforts to return to constitution principles and check the unwarranted growth of Federal (and god forbid, supranational) power.
The very fact that more people than not seem to think Obamacare is "good" and that there is nothing fishy or (dare i say) illegal about it is just a huge sign of the times.
They might as well go ahead and just issue an official poll tax. We are only one perverse distortion of the law of the land away, anyhow.
:(
If I opened it now would you not understand?
100% here
I would love for the U.S.A to become a Collective Democracy, voting for leaders hasnt worked out in my veiw, to open to corruption. I beleive in most of the Constitution, but just like the Bible, it had it place and time, time to evolve, i.m.h.o.
i.e. Do you want greater law enforcement with others who you perceive as harming you?
Do you want more limits on the press and freedom of speech when they expose things you don't think they should for whatever reason?
Do you want the government to facilitate maintaining your way of life, but you're okay with them limiting others way of life?
Do you want increased regulation when you benefit directly?
Are you okay with our government violating the constitutional principles when it's carried out in other countries?
Etc...
second that.
I was thinking of creating a topic on whether or not we should try to return to our more republic like roots.
Heard this on the radio, thought it was an interesting point:
When senators began being elected by the people of a state rather than the state congress/assembly what have you, the notion of senators fighting for the people of their state began to fade.
If certainly wasn't something I thought much about but I can see why this has had an impact. Senators may be elected in a state, and certainly wield large amounts of power for that state, but seem really interested in national policy rather than what is best for their state and constituents...
BACK on topic
One can only assume that most people selectively care about the constitution. Whether it is democrats who don't care much for state's/individual rights vs. the collective, or republicans who quite frankly don't care much about the constitution on social matters or being forced to declare a fucking war before military action is used...I say no, most Americans do not care for the constitution and view it as an old piece of paper that may have been good enough for the first 200 years, but it isn't good enough today...
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
If we were to become a full collective democracy we might as well break into 50 countries rather than states...
guaranteeing everyone the right to vote with zero infringement and being a collective democracy is a very dangerous thing if you ask me. There will be very little for checks and balances, and I am fairly certain this man would be president.
In a collective democracy we would be at the mercy of Big Media much more than we are today. Knee jerk reactions become the norm and long term policy would be quickly dispatched in the name of short term gains. I think people would be sorely disappointed if we went to mob rule...you think rights are being taken away now, I can only imagine what would happen to minorities(whatever race that is soon), LGBT, and other small groups...Towns have made dancing illegal before...There used to be pigeon walking laws in my home town...
All hail President Mountain Dew Camacho
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.",
- Alexis de Tocqueville
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Thats a good point i hadn't considered Mike, however voting for a representive who tells me what i want to hear and then just goes ahead and does what ever the hell they want to anyway (Obama) isn't working for me either.
We put these last two wars we started up for a vote and everybody with a Social Security Number and over 18, who cares enough to contibute, is allowed to log on or mail in the their opinion and i dont beleive they would have started, i also beleive Pot would be made legal, so we already get legal pot and no war, so far so good. I havent got it all worked out yet but i think i'm onto something.
they were actually very popular at the start, the majority of the public supported the wars.
i think what you will find is revolution and civil war if we move to simply a collective democracy...
We voted in GW twice, can we really be trusted to run the country ourselves
You are either on something or onto something, I haven't figured out which yet
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
You have a fair quip here, however what you are describing is a symptom of a deeper problem that has its roots in the failure to adhere to the constitution in the first place.
I'm not sure I can even iterate all the ways this is true, but to give an example or so ...
the failure of Presidents to listen to the public (in a great, or even in a very small way) probably has to do with several things, and conspiracies aside, I'm talking about things like the fact that the government no longer depends on the consent of "governed" in any way shape or form. This governmental lack of dependency upon the people stems from a few issues in&of itself, but part of it is that government has removed its own shackles, so to speak ... or rather instead of being shackled to the people, it has had those shackles lifted and PLACED UPON THE PEOPLE.
I'm talking about The Federal Reserve which is not constitutional, and when enacted lifted the NECESSITY OF POPULAR CONSENT THROUGH TAXATION to allow the government to function. What I mean to say is, no longer dependent upon tax revenues or required to keep balanced books, the government can Print & Spend, Print & Spend, Print & Spend, pretty much as it wants.
That is ONE way the system has become able to ignore you.
A second, that went hand in hand with the Federal Reserve - LITERALLY hand in hand, BOTH were enacted in 1913 -- is the INCOME TAX. Completely unconstitutional (read this if you dare try) ... this perversion of a tax upon your very RIGHT TO EXIST (what you think that the government GRANTS you the PRIVELAGE to WORK? What, so your natural estate is one of a Pauper or Hobo, alone?) again FREES GOVERNMENT FROM YOUR COMMAND by FORCING you to FUND IT, monstrosity though it be.
Once the Government could fund itself through the incipient "tax" of inflation (federal reserve) and through the direct taxation (erroneously but still unconstitutionally mislabeled "indirect tax") of your income (ie. your very right to life) then (and ONLY then) WERE THE DOORS WIDE OPEN for the Government to spend money on any and everything it wanted.
Every further usurpation of it's constitutional authority was "authorized" by the fact that you COULD NOT BUT FUND IT, less you live in jail, and even if you did refuse, it could just debase the nations currency and fund it upon the DEBT OF YOUR CHILDREN.
The large "Departments" that have no real constitutional authority ONLY appeared because the government was no longer dependent upon the governed for any "real" authority.
The fact\allegation that Obama "does not listen" to "you" is because he DOES NOT HAVE TO. And, in fact, he is just one of the man frontman faces of an international group who is HELL BENT on destroying national sovereignty EVERYwhere, ESPECIALLY in the United States so that it can bring about something much more "convenient" for it's own survival (and ultimately, i think they think they are doing us a service since we do, on whole, seem to be too dumb to stand up for ourselves).
Unfortunately this is just one of many fates our Founding Fathers (and all the true defenders of PERSONAL liberty) themselves warned us against.
QUOTATIONS (i started with Jefferson because he was fucking prophet!)
"We have the greatest opportunity the world has ever seen, as long as we remain honest -- which will be as long as we can keep the attention of our people alive. If they once become inattentive to public affairs, you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, judges and governors would all become wolves."
-Thomas Jefferson
"To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, “the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, & the fruits acquired by it.'”
-Thomas Jefferson
"In questions of power then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
- Thomas Jefferson
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves, (A)nd if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."
-Thomas Jefferson
"I hope a tax will be preferred [to a loan which threatens to saddle us with a perpetual debt], because it will awaken the attention of the people and make reformation and economy the principle of the next election. The frequent recurrence of this chastening operation can alone restrain the propensity of governments to enlarge expense beyond income."
-Thomas Jefferson
To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
-Thomas Jefferson
"The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The Tenth Amendment is the foundation of the Constitution."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure."
--Thomas Jefferson
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
--Thomas Jefferson
"If this spirit shall ever be so far debased as to tolerate a law not obligatory on the legislature, as well as on the people, the people will be prepared to tolerate anything but liberty."
-James Madison
"Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedoms of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
-James Madison
With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.
- James Madison
"Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature."
-Benjamin Franklin
"Man will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants."
-Benjamin Franklin
"A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins."
- Benjamin Franklin
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the Tranquility of servitude better than the Animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
~ Samuel Adams,
speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
-Patrick Henry
"Bad men cannot make good citizens. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience are incompatible with freedom."
-Patrick Henry
"No country upon earth ever had it more in its power to attain these blessings than United America. Wondrously strange, then, and much to be regretted indeed would it be, were we to neglect the means and to depart from the road which Providence has pointed us to so plainly; I cannot believe it will ever come to pass."
-George Washington
"The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing."
-John Adams
Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people.
- John Adams
Property must be secured, or liberty cannot exist.
- John Adams
There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.
-John Adams
Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people.
- John Adams
and, not exactly founding fathers (lol), but sadly, so true:
"We the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts--not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
--Abraham Lincoln
"Many free countries have lost their liberty, and ours may lose hers; but if she shall, be it my proudest plume, not that I was the last to desert, but that I never deserted her. I know that the great volcano at Washington, aroused and directed by the evil spirit that reigns there, is belching forth the lava of political corruption in a current broad and deep, which is sweeping with frightful velocity over the whole length and breadth of the land, bidding fair to leave unscathed no green spot or living thing; while on its bosom are riding, like demons on the waves of hell, the imps of that evil spirit, and fiendishly taunting all those who dare resist its destroying course with the hopelessness of their effort; and, knowing this, I cannot deny that all may be swept away. Broken by it I, too, may be; bow to it I never will.
-- Abraham Lincoln
GOOGLE "KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE, ASSASINATION OF LINCOLN"
Lincoln WAS murdered by members of "The Dark Brotherhood".
Triangle, Skull & Bones, Crecent Moon & 13 Stars, Sun Symbols & Pillars, Anything Ringing A Bell?
"Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master."
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Now more than ever before, the people are responsible for the character of their Congress. If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption. If it be intelligent, brave and pure, it is because the people demand these high qualities to represent them in the national legislature.... If the next centennial does not find us a great nation ... it will be because those who represent the enterprise, the culture, and the morality of the nation do not aid in controlling the political forces."
James Garfield, the twentieth president of the United States, 1877
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying civilization." - Aristotle
“The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy” - Mr. "Seperation of Powers" Himself, Charles de Montesquieu
“For if they can take away one penny from us against our wills, they can take all. If they have such power over our properties they must have a proportionable power over our persons; and from hence it will follow, that they can demand and take away our lives, whensoever it shall be agreeable to their sovereign wills and pleasure.”
-Silas Downer
"That text is known to them that have the patience to read it, possibly one one-hundredth of one percent of the denizens. They forget it, all save a few Western states. I think somebody in Dakota once read it. The Constitution."
-That Great Patriot, Ezra Pound
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I find that in nearly every instance people use your constitution as a defense, I agree with them......which makes me think it should be followed more closely, not less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 46MkU_-_wE
Nice one.
I have - I even have a copy of it in the form of an iPhone app :ugeek:
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Most of it. I usually read through the Bill of Rights on a daily basis
I certainly believe it AND I believe that you should have the freedom to marry whomever you choose.
I did in the 7th grade, say 12 years old, cant say i remember much, Driftin, you've given me much to think about, and obviously i need to re-read the Constitution.
You're an intelligent person. Thank you!
For those that think it is outdated there is a process for amending it.
I do believe that a politician that votes against it should be charged with perjury at the least.
I firmly believe that the Founding Fathers wrote as perfect as a document as they could and did a far better job doing that than 98% of the politicians today could. I've read other writings from that era and I'd guess most people would not be able to follow along.
Yeah, it was a helluva a process. An interesting study... Spent weeks on it in my first (and third, had to go over the parts that pertained to the president) Political Science class.
That's because the Founding Fathers actually did their own reading back then. Today these politicians have an aide read a document (or a bill coming up for a vote) and then have someone digest the material for them and give them a report :fp:
And you are so right - most people can't follow along while reading the Constitution or any other reading from the era.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I believe in it but thanks for pointing out that fact that there is a process for amending it. Like any document of this sort, occasional review is not a bad idea.
Regarding "I'd guess most people would not be able to follow along", I'm tempted to suggest the idea of publishing a version in language that is more contemporary only with the idea that more people might read it today if but that were done that opens up too much possibility of distorting the intent in places and allows too freely us being an under-educated people. I'm surprised Shakespeare is still taught in our schools.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"