Obama’s war on coal hits your electric bill

cincybearcat

polaris_x wrote:

ontario has pledged to close all coal fire plants ... not sure target date but we are almost there ... no one was complaining when that decision was made nor is anyone complaining now ...

And what's up with this group...

http://quixoteslaststand.com/category/t ... y-act-gea/

polaris_x

cincybearcat wrote:

And what's up with this group...

http://quixoteslaststand.com/category/t ... y-act-gea/

really!?? ... this is what you are going with?

you might have been the 18th hit this year for that site ...

polaris_x

cincybearcat wrote:

http://www.ontariotenants.ca/electricity/articles/2004/lfp04c18.phtml

Old article. Haven't found anything up to date that wasn't on the govt site yet. Do they have data on jobs, health care costs, etc from this move yet?

not sure ... thing with smog is that it travels ... most of the smog we get here in southern ontario comes from northern ohio and the manufacturing and coal plants there ... with manufacturing gone the way of the dodo bird - we are getting less smog in general ...

the reality with this stuff ... is that burning coal is bad in many ways ... why do you think trains stop using it or furnaces or anything else that used to use coal ... not only does it contribute to global warming but the pollutants related to coal is brutal ... and is largely responsible for respiratory related illnesses ...

cincybearcat

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

And what's up with this group...

http://quixoteslaststand.com/category/t ... y-act-gea/

really!?? ... this is what you are going with?

you might have been the 18th hit this year for that site ...

No I asked what's up with this group because it looked weird. I don't know anything about it.

cincybearcat

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

http://www.ontariotenants.ca/electricity/articles/2004/lfp04c18.phtml

Old article. Haven't found anything up to date that wasn't on the govt site yet. Do they have data on jobs, health care costs, etc from this move yet?

not sure ... thing with smog is that it travels ... most of the smog we get here in southern ontario comes from northern ohio and the manufacturing and coal plants there ... with manufacturing gone the way of the dodo bird - we are getting less smog in general ...

the reality with this stuff ... is that burning coal is bad in many ways ... why do you think trains stop using it or furnaces or anything else that used to use coal ... not only does it contribute to global warming but the pollutants related to coal is brutal ... and is largely responsible for respiratory related illnesses ...

Yeah I know. I was just trying to find out more info on it. I know their are problems with burning coal. I also know that you have to have an alternative in place as well as a plan for jobs. I didn't know anything about this until this thread so I was just trying to find out some info and figured you'd be pretty up to speed, even if one-sided.

cincybearcat

Godfather. wrote:

blackredyellow wrote:

This isn't directed at you Godfather, but your post is a perfect example of the the problems with this political climate we have created:

Question #1 - "What's in place to save these families?": Not sure... and I feel bad for anyone losing their job. But on the flipside, people on the right were so up in arms about the auto bailouts, and spending that money helped the families. How many thousands of families would have been without jobs if not for the bailouts? We selectively make emotional arguments to support things that we agree with, and ignore than when they are things we disagree with.

Question #2 - "Is there a renewable energy source in place?": Not really... nothing on the scale we need. Buuuuutttt... when the republicans and oil/coal lobbyist fight tooth and nail against any large scale effort to financially support alternative energies, it's pretty funny when they can conveniently use the excuse of "we need to produce/use more oil and coal, because there is nothing else we can use". It reminds me of the "too big to fail" excuse the banking industry used, after years of fighting any sorts of regulations that would prevent them from getting so big in the first place.

wow a great reply for sure thanks ! your post got me thinking/wondering,the working man has been used for excusses and as a scap-goat by politions on all sides, it dosen't seem to mater if it's coal or renewable energy
in the end because the working man will pay the price either way with no real say in the matter.


Godfather.

Really? It's kinda a different topic to use tax payers money to fund an failing industry versus shutting down workplaces. Not really comparable at all. Personally, I didn't know if the bailouts were a good idea at the time nor now, but this is comparing apples to oranges. It''s one thing to have an industry close down because they don't make $ and nobody is buying their products, it's entirely another to shut them down despite people wanting their products. I understand why they are doing it, but it's a terrible comparison.

As for the "too big to fail", just another weird analogy. A better anaolgy would have been Field of Dreams, "if we shut it down, alternative energy will come!!!". I agree that it's an excuse to only use coal/oil and and not figure out alternative means, but to just stop without a replacement is a bit reckless.

polaris_x

cincybearcat wrote:

Yeah I know. I was just trying to find out more info on it. I know their are problems with burning coal. I also know that you have to have an alternative in place as well as a plan for jobs. I didn't know anything about this until this thread so I was just trying to find out some info and figured you'd be pretty up to speed, even if one-sided.

with some conservation strategies and a decline in the manufacturing sector - we've been using less and less energy here ... i suspect that number will spike this summer as it's projected to be hot and dry ... ... neighbour's AC is already on ... not even june yet ...

polaris_x

cincybearcat wrote:

Really? It's kinda a different topic to use tax payers money to fund an failing industry versus shutting down workplaces. Not really comparable at all. Personally, I didn't know if the bailouts were a good idea at the time nor now, but this is comparing apples to oranges. It''s one thing to have an industry close down because they don't make $ and nobody is buying their products, it's entirely another to shut them down despite people wanting their products. I understand why they are doing it, but it's a terrible comparison.

As for the "too big to fail", just another weird analogy. A better anaolgy would have been Field of Dreams, "if we shut it down, alternative energy will come!!!". I agree that it's an excuse to only use coal/oil and and not figure out alternative means, but to just stop without a replacement is a bit reckless.

things don't work in isolation ... an industry failing isn't necessarily always just the fault of the industry ... the game is fixed in america ... the only reason oil and coal succeed is because the game is rigged in their favour ...

cincybearcat

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Really? It's kinda a different topic to use tax payers money to fund an failing industry versus shutting down workplaces. Not really comparable at all. Personally, I didn't know if the bailouts were a good idea at the time nor now, but this is comparing apples to oranges. It''s one thing to have an industry close down because they don't make $ and nobody is buying their products, it's entirely another to shut them down despite people wanting their products. I understand why they are doing it, but it's a terrible comparison.

As for the "too big to fail", just another weird analogy. A better anaolgy would have been Field of Dreams, "if we shut it down, alternative energy will come!!!". I agree that it's an excuse to only use coal/oil and and not figure out alternative means, but to just stop without a replacement is a bit reckless.

things don't work in isolation ... an industry failing isn't necessarily always just the fault of the industry ... the game is fixed in america ... the only reason oil and coal succeed is because the game is rigged in their favour ...

And the only reason it's failing in Ontario is because the game is rigged against them. You just happen to like the rigging going on there.

polaris_x

cincybearcat wrote:

And the only reason it's failing in Ontario is because the game is rigged against them. You just happen to like the rigging going on there.

energy production isn't really privatized here ... the coal fire plants belong to OPG which is wholly owned by the province ...

we are shutting down coal because the incremental costs related to coal far outweigh the benefits

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Really? It's kinda a different topic to use tax payers money to fund an failing industry versus shutting down workplaces. Not really comparable at all. Personally, I didn't know if the bailouts were a good idea at the time nor now, but this is comparing apples to oranges. It''s one thing to have an industry close down because they don't make $ and nobody is buying their products, it's entirely another to shut them down despite people wanting their products. I understand why they are doing it, but it's a terrible comparison.

As for the "too big to fail", just another weird analogy. A better anaolgy would have been Field of Dreams, "if we shut it down, alternative energy will come!!!". I agree that it's an excuse to only use coal/oil and and not figure out alternative means, but to just stop without a replacement is a bit reckless.

things don't work in isolation ... an industry failing isn't necessarily always just the fault of the industry ... the game is fixed in america ... the only reason oil and coal succeed is because the game is rigged in their favour ...

And the only reason it's failing in Ontario is because the game is rigged against them. You just happen to like the rigging going on there.

... It's not the same. Coal pollutes and we need to stop using it.

pandora

PJ_Soul wrote:

pandora wrote:

thanks for the link to the letters ...

I'll lose my house if this electric bill goes any higher!

I agree get the alternative in place first! gosh darn it! :fp:

they must think we are all made out of money :evil:

People don't change behaviors until they are forced to. I actually think the only way people will make changes is if the old options aren't available anymore or are at least made less available. Shitty but true.
Meanwhile, there are lots of ways to save electricity. I.e. use it less, power smart home plans, etc.

We are saving electricity but the bill is still enormous!
They can not and should not raise the rates,
people are defaulting on their bills causing the rates to go up even higher.

Keep the coal until another viable alternative source is in place. This is common sense.
It is very easy for people to make light of situations when they do not experience it themselves.
Like not being able to pay a bill or when people are losing their jobs.

Feel for the people involved. They are our most valuable commodity. People.

Cosmo

To the Coal Burning Supporters:
How do you feel about China, burning coal to meet their energy demands?

brianlux

Cosmo wrote:

To the Coal Burning Supporters:
How do you feel about China, burning coal to meet their energy demands?

I can't answer for coal burning supporters because obviously I'm not one but I'll say this- I live on the west coast and I see the effects almost daily. I've read various estimates on what percentage of air pollution here comes from China and from what I've read it looks to be about 25% That's a lot, considering how far away China is. Between that, Fukushima, and the pollution we create here on our own it's no wonder asthma, lung disease, respiratory failure and the like are on the rise here.

It rained here Saturday night. By the end of Sunday the sky was brown. Sound like L.A.? No, I live in Northern California where everything is supposed to be green and groovy. A bit cynical? You bet.

Cosmo

brianlux wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

To the Coal Burning Supporters:
How do you feel about China, burning coal to meet their energy demands?

I can't answer for coal burning supporters because obviously I'm not one but I'll say this- I live on the west coast and I see the effects almost daily. I've read various estimates on what percentage of air pollution here comes from China and from what I've read it looks to be about 25% That's a lot, considering how far away China is. Between that, Fukushima, and the pollution we create here on our own it's no wonder asthma, lung disease, respiratory failure and the like are on the rise here.

It rained here Saturday night. By the end of Sunday the sky was brown. Sound like L.A.? No, I live in Northern California where everything is supposed to be green and groovy. A bit cynical? You bet.

...
Wait til China starts firing on all 3 billion cylinders. It's going to get kinda smokey all up in here. and what will keep our coal industry from selling to China... if China ia the highest bidder?
My best guess... the pro-coal people won't complain about it because they wouldn't want to go back on their position.

jb306534

Burning coal does about as much damage to the environment as pissing in the ocean raises the ocean's level.
We are merely a spec of dust in relation to the world's existence...to think that we can save/destroy the planet solely through our actions is absurd and egotistical.

PJ_Soul

jb306534 wrote:

Burning coal does about as much damage to the environment as pissing in the ocean raises the ocean's level.
We are merely a spec of dust in relation to the world's existence...to think that we can save/destroy the planet solely through our actions is absurd and egotistical.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

markin ball

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

pandora wrote:

thanks for the link to the letters ...

I'll lose my house if this electric bill goes any higher!

I agree get the alternative in place first! gosh darn it! :fp:

they must think we are all made out of money :evil:

People don't change behaviors until they are forced to. I actually think the only way people will make changes is if the old options aren't available anymore or are at least made less available. Shitty but true.
Meanwhile, there are lots of ways to save electricity. I.e. use it less, power smart home plans, etc.

iO
We are saving electricity but the bill is still enormous!
They can not and should not raise the rates,
people are defaulting on their bills causing the rates to go up even higher.

Keep the coal until another viable alternative source is in place. This is common sense.
It is very easy for people to make light of situations when they do not experience it themselves.
Like not being able to pay a bill or when people are losing their jobs.

Feel for the people involved. They are our most valuable commodity. People.

I feel deeply for the people involved...all of us. I have great concern over our health and environment. I have less concern over money. That is how it should be, right?

ONCE DEVIDED

jb306534 wrote:

Burning coal does about as much damage to the environment as pissing in the ocean raises the ocean's level.
We are merely a spec of dust in relation to the world's existence...to think that we can save/destroy the planet solely through our actions is absurd and egotistical.

Of course the energy that you consume causes not a damn thing
If you actually think that do a simple experiment.
Get a hose and attach it to the muffler of your car then put other
End of hose inside the cab. See how long it is till your poisoned and you die
Maybe all the pollution creatEd for you electRicity can be piped directly into your bedroom
Seeing as how it's harmless
One person polluting may not cause anything but million upon millions of us doing it WILL HAVE AN EFFECT

redrock

Cosmo wrote:

Wait til China starts firing on all 3 billion cylinders. It's going to get kinda smokey all up in here. and what will keep our coal industry from selling to China... if China ia the highest bidder?
My best guess... the pro-coal people won't complain about it because they wouldn't want to go back on their position.

Everyone 'feeds' China and will do even more. New mines are being dug up, etc. But it's OK because 'we're' not burning the coal and 'we're' doing our bit for the environment. Coal is being shipped far afield - causing more pollution. Big, big business. Demand on coal is also bringing the price of this commodity up. Win/win situation for big corporations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/22/scien ... wanted=all

Clean coal technology is out there but one still has to pay the price for this development to be fully implemented (assuming one wants to continue using coal). I am willing to pay a bit more in order to try and ensure my daughter's children can go play outside without having asthma/allergies issues due to pollution, to try and ensure a cleaner planet for us all.