When the US isn't violating anyone's rights their president may have the moral authority to brow beat another nation.
:fp: Obama isn't brow beating anyone in this case. Please get your facts before making such comments.
Also, that is a terrible attitude, even though no one's brow beating in this situation (Guangcheng is the one who escaped and went to the US Embassy and asked to leave China for America - American is just accommodating that; not brow beating IMO. Responding to the pleas of a man whose life is in danger, along with his family's, who chose to take refuge on American soil) ... Until America does some shit you want, they shouldn't work towards anything good ever? If every country had that attitude, the whole world would go to shit in about 3 minutes. Furthermore, China needs a bit of brow beating generally - what's going on in other countries is a separate issue.
here is the original post that i was responding to "I think Obama shouldcome out in support of this activist. He has been tight lipped so far. I hope Chen is able to leave China along with his family to the U.S"
At no stage did i state obaba said anything
im responding to the people asking their president to stand up for human rights abuses in china when the USA government is violating human rights itself. simple
PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS BEFORE MAKING COMMENTS
im sick of the USA, United kingdom etc and my own nation Australia thinking they have some moral superiority over other nations, we should get our shit together and maybe people would listen to us if we were not so far up our own arses
what else are they going to do? Supply weapons to dangerous nations? ... Oh wait. They already do all that
And the U.S doesn't?
I dunno... which dangerous nations is the US sending weapons to right now? Israel (dangerous nation depending on what side of that stupid conflict you're siding with... I think both sides are equally stupid so cancel each other out).
(Also, two wrongs don't make a right. I'm actually talking about China here. I don't understand why people think there is any value in these kinds of comments in this thread... I find any point like this totally irrelevant to the topic. If you want to discuss whatever wrongs the US is committing why don't you start your own thread? Just because one nation is committing wrong doesn't mean it's okay for another to, and doesn't mean it isn't still good for that nation to stop wrong doings when it can..... when I hear about China stepping in to stop injustices and speak against rights violations somewhere, I'll applaud them too, even if it doesn't negate other things China may be doing. It's not a black and white, all or nothing world, and good should be committed and acknowledged on its own merit).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
what else are they going to do? Supply weapons to dangerous nations? ... Oh wait. They already do all that
And the U.S doesn't?
I dunno... which dangerous nations is the US sending weapons to right now? Israel (dangerous nation depending on what side of that stupid conflict you're siding with... I think both sides are equally stupid so cancel each other out).
Nah, it has nothing to do with what side of the conflict you side with. Israel has a long history of attacking it's neighbours and deliberately targeting civilians, and the U.S supplies it with billions of dollars worth of weapons every year, along with countries such as Bahrain, Turkey, Indonesia, Columbia, and Egypt, where U.S-supplied weapons have also been used on civilians.
I'm actually talking about China here. I don't understand why people think there is any value in these kinds of comments in this thread... I find any point like this totally irrelevant to the topic.
Of course you do. These kinds of comments cause that moral high-horse you're perched on to start wobbling.
Copied this from a website in China as I think he raises some good points:
'He’s gotten incredible play in the media because it suits US values and ideals and also happens to fit the agendas and self-interest of a variety of groups. Some are actually calling him “pro life,” which to me is hilarious and shows a selfish desire to co-opt his status and anything he’s done for their own purposes. Republicans were looking to vilify the administration for being too weak on China, and hence the situation needed to be portrayed in a one-dimensional way. With that in mind, the administration was pressured to show they were not sympathizing with the commie bastard abusers.
My point is not that this guy is not a hero and didn’t do something courageous. I agree he has Balls and compassion and has suffered greatly because of it. However, for a variety of reasons, such situations in my opinion are not as simple as they are portrayed. For one, many people reading this stuff don’t appreciate the difference between local and central leadership, and this is used by the US government and various groups to foster a certain view toward China and ourselves. Second, in a similar way, nothing good is EVER said about the positive results of the family planning policies, even as politicians and pundits hammer away on China for having policies that are in fact made necessary by its enormous and breathtakingly poor population. If outsiders really cared about China’s people, as opposed to simply using such sentiments as a tool, we would be having a debate about such issues instead of just using the occasional flap for our own purposes. In reality, I think most people don’t care that much, but some would like to hear a sensational story about a hero.
Even with all this, many US people are not giving him a hero’s welcome. Go on Yahoo and find these stories (featured over the past few days) and look at the comments. When I looked, almost all of the comments were to the effect of: Who is paying for this guy’s flight? Will he be eligible for welfare because he’s blind? How can he study in the US if he doesn’t speak English? Obviously this will vary from site to site, but you will find some of the same even over at the nytimes.'
Nah, it has nothing to do with what side of the conflict you side with. Israel has a long history of attacking it's neighbours and deliberately targeting civilians, and the U.S supplies it with billions of dollars worth of weapons every year, along with countries such as Bahrain, Turkey, Indonesia, Columbia, and Egypt, where U.S-supplied weapons have also been used on civilians.
I'm actually talking about China here. I don't understand why people think there is any value in these kinds of comments in this thread... I find any point like this totally irrelevant to the topic.
Of course you do. These kinds of comments cause that moral high-horse you're perched on to start wobbling.
I support what's right. I don't care who is committing the deeds. I have a moral compass (a very stable one, thanks), that directs me to admire those who stand up for what is right according to what I think is right. You can't fault me for that. It has nothing to do with what nation happened to be involved. If you think being in the same court philosophically as a man who risked himself to fight against forced abortion and sterilization, or siding with the political support of persecuted dissidents in totalitarian countries is being on a moral high horse, then I'm happy to be on it! I am more than comfortable with my thoughts on what is just in the world, and Guangcheng not being punished for standing up fir what he believes in is just. And I am in support of an group o who allows that to happen. In this case, it was done with the help of the US government,aand I'm glad they supported this particular cause.
Look buddy, I don't know what your problem is but would appreciate it if you quit making random wild assumptions about where I stand morally. Guess what, you and I have access to the same facts. I am in support of this man and of ensuring the freedom of speech for all and that is why I'm interested I this story. I'm a Canadian and k.ow full well what the US's role is in the world. It's a big topic in my country. I'm happy to hear when dissdents escape persecution. Honestly, you're the one on a high horse, and you also cone off as plain silly when you preached about China offering more freedom than north America, lol. That was a long time ago when you said that, and you have held no credibility for me since. In fact, I don't even know wtf you're talking about in the context of anything I've said. No clue what this moral high horse is supposed to be, or bow you think what I've said at any point puts me generally on side with overall American foreign policy (as an incredibly left-wibg thinker, I'm totally not). In fact, I'm starting to wonder if you're having a some sort of imaginary debate here...
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
thats enough for me to congratulate the chinese government in restricting the spiraling into the abyss of over populating our world
sure it brings its own problems ie abortion and abandoning of girl babies. but with such a massive poulation already china needed to do somthing
a guy argued the case, was jailed
sorry human right to overpopulate
and you also cone off as plain silly when you preached about China offering more freedom than north America, lol.
I didn't say China offered more freedom than North America. I said that people here have more personal freedom than they do in the West. It's clear that you don't understand the difference between personal freedom and political freedom, but that's not my fault.
thats enough for me to congratulate the chinese government in restricting the spiraling into the abyss of over populating our world
sure it brings its own problems ie abortion and abandoning of girl babies. but with such a massive poulation already china needed to do somthing
a guy argued the case, was jailed
sorry human right to overpopulate
For sure, don't gwtme wrong, the population crisis is awful and I support the one child rule (I I think it should be enforced in rural areas too). But enforcement should NOT include forced abortions and forced sterilizations
That's totally fucked up. I mean, women being literally dragged kicking and screaming onto a table and having their babies ripped out of them? Sorry... seems like a reasonable thing to protest. I'm strongly pro choice, so no way am I about to support that. There are other ways to work towards population reductipn. In my opinion.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
and you also cone off as plain silly when you preached about China offering more freedom than north America, lol.
I didn't say China offered more freedom than North America. I said that people here have more personal freedom than they do in the West. It's clear that you don't understand the difference between personal freedom and political freedom, but that's not my fault.
Yeah, I do (although think the distinction is not even meaningful anyway). I just think you're completely wrong. There is only one way to be thinkng that, and I know what it must entail. The lack of law and regulation in certain areas does not equal more personal freedom because it detracts from the freedoms of others while at play. Btw, a private citizen being able to speak against the government IS a personal freedom. I actually think what your definition of personal vs political freedom is the murky one.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yeah, I do (although think the distinction is not even meaningful anyway). I just think you're completely wrong. There is only one way to be thinkng that, and I know what it must entail. The lack of law and regulation in certain areas does not equal more personal freedom because it detracts from the freedoms of others while at play. Btw, a private citizen being able to speak against the government IS a personal freedom. I actually think what your definition of personal vs political freedom is the murky one.
No, personal freedom isn't defined by what the law and regulations permit - I.e, being allowed to smoke in a public place, or flout traffic laws, e.t.c. It goes beyond that. But I won't bother trying to explain it to you because you clearly regard yourself as an expert on this country which you've never set foot in.
Comments
here is the original post that i was responding to
"I think Obama shouldcome out in support of this activist. He has been tight lipped so far. I hope Chen is able to leave China along with his family to the U.S"
At no stage did i state obaba said anything
im responding to the people asking their president to stand up for human rights abuses in china when the USA government is violating human rights itself. simple
PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS BEFORE MAKING COMMENTS
im sick of the USA, United kingdom etc and my own nation Australia thinking they have some moral superiority over other nations, we should get our shit together and maybe people would listen to us if we were not so far up our own arses
http://www.jpost.com/International/Arti ... ?id=270601
And China hasn't declared war or anything! :roll:
And the U.S doesn't?
(Also, two wrongs don't make a right. I'm actually talking about China here. I don't understand why people think there is any value in these kinds of comments in this thread... I find any point like this totally irrelevant to the topic. If you want to discuss whatever wrongs the US is committing why don't you start your own thread? Just because one nation is committing wrong doesn't mean it's okay for another to, and doesn't mean it isn't still good for that nation to stop wrong doings when it can..... when I hear about China stepping in to stop injustices and speak against rights violations somewhere, I'll applaud them too, even if it doesn't negate other things China may be doing. It's not a black and white, all or nothing world, and good should be committed and acknowledged on its own merit).
Nah, it has nothing to do with what side of the conflict you side with. Israel has a long history of attacking it's neighbours and deliberately targeting civilians, and the U.S supplies it with billions of dollars worth of weapons every year, along with countries such as Bahrain, Turkey, Indonesia, Columbia, and Egypt, where U.S-supplied weapons have also been used on civilians.
Of course you do. These kinds of comments cause that moral high-horse you're perched on to start wobbling.
'He’s gotten incredible play in the media because it suits US values and ideals and also happens to fit the agendas and self-interest of a variety of groups. Some are actually calling him “pro life,” which to me is hilarious and shows a selfish desire to co-opt his status and anything he’s done for their own purposes. Republicans were looking to vilify the administration for being too weak on China, and hence the situation needed to be portrayed in a one-dimensional way. With that in mind, the administration was pressured to show they were not sympathizing with the commie bastard abusers.
My point is not that this guy is not a hero and didn’t do something courageous. I agree he has Balls and compassion and has suffered greatly because of it. However, for a variety of reasons, such situations in my opinion are not as simple as they are portrayed. For one, many people reading this stuff don’t appreciate the difference between local and central leadership, and this is used by the US government and various groups to foster a certain view toward China and ourselves. Second, in a similar way, nothing good is EVER said about the positive results of the family planning policies, even as politicians and pundits hammer away on China for having policies that are in fact made necessary by its enormous and breathtakingly poor population. If outsiders really cared about China’s people, as opposed to simply using such sentiments as a tool, we would be having a debate about such issues instead of just using the occasional flap for our own purposes. In reality, I think most people don’t care that much, but some would like to hear a sensational story about a hero.
Even with all this, many US people are not giving him a hero’s welcome. Go on Yahoo and find these stories (featured over the past few days) and look at the comments. When I looked, almost all of the comments were to the effect of: Who is paying for this guy’s flight? Will he be eligible for welfare because he’s blind? How can he study in the US if he doesn’t speak English? Obviously this will vary from site to site, but you will find some of the same even over at the nytimes.'
Look buddy, I don't know what your problem is but would appreciate it if you quit making random wild assumptions about where I stand morally. Guess what, you and I have access to the same facts. I am in support of this man and of ensuring the freedom of speech for all and that is why I'm interested I this story. I'm a Canadian and k.ow full well what the US's role is in the world. It's a big topic in my country. I'm happy to hear when dissdents escape persecution. Honestly, you're the one on a high horse, and you also cone off as plain silly when you preached about China offering more freedom than north America, lol. That was a long time ago when you said that, and you have held no credibility for me since. In fact, I don't even know wtf you're talking about in the context of anything I've said. No clue what this moral high horse is supposed to be, or bow you think what I've said at any point puts me generally on side with overall American foreign policy (as an incredibly left-wibg thinker, I'm totally not). In fact, I'm starting to wonder if you're having a some sort of imaginary debate here...
thats enough for me to congratulate the chinese government in restricting the spiraling into the abyss of over populating our world
sure it brings its own problems ie abortion and abandoning of girl babies. but with such a massive poulation already china needed to do somthing
a guy argued the case, was jailed
sorry human right to overpopulate
I didn't say China offered more freedom than North America. I said that people here have more personal freedom than they do in the West. It's clear that you don't understand the difference between personal freedom and political freedom, but that's not my fault.
That's totally fucked up. I mean, women being literally dragged kicking and screaming onto a table and having their babies ripped out of them? Sorry... seems like a reasonable thing to protest. I'm strongly pro choice, so no way am I about to support that. There are other ways to work towards population reductipn. In my opinion.
No, personal freedom isn't defined by what the law and regulations permit - I.e, being allowed to smoke in a public place, or flout traffic laws, e.t.c. It goes beyond that. But I won't bother trying to explain it to you because you clearly regard yourself as an expert on this country which you've never set foot in.