W-W-Y-D?

Shorty · April 2012

What would you do.....

Mark sells a poster to Tom - Mark lives in North America - Tom lives in a European country. Tom sends $$$ via paypal as a gift - Mark insures the poster for the appropriate value - and at Tom's request, Mark sends an email to a governing body in Tom's country advising that the poster is a gift.

Tom (buyer) is now advising Mark (seller) that there is tax on the poster entering his country - roughly 60% of the poster's insured value.

What would you do if you were Mark (seller) or Tom (buyer)?

White Discussion · April 2012

Maybe split the cost? A tough situation for sure

Shorty wrote:

What would you do.....

Mark sells a poster to Tom - Mark lives in North America - Tom lives in a European country. Tom sends $$$ via paypal as a gift - Mark insures the poster for the appropriate value - and at Tom's request, Mark sends an email to a governing body in Tom's country advising that the poster is a gift.

Tom (buyer) is now advising Mark (seller) that there is tax on the poster entering his country - roughly 60% of the poster's insured value.

What would you do if you were Mark (seller) or Tom (buyer)?

dangerboy · April 2012

Sorry, seller not responsible for taxes and duties imposed by country of the buyer.

100 Pacer · April 2012

dangerboy wrote:

Sorry, seller not responsible for taxes and duties imposed by country of the buyer.

^^^

As a seller you should never undervalue a print shipped to another country. Any additional customs charges are always the responsibility of the buyer. As a seller you're under no obligation to cover additional customs charges.

ahill721 · April 2012

I agree with the other comments. Any charges added to the buyers item due to their Countries policies are for the buyer to pay.

flyinwhole313 · April 2012

dangerboy wrote:

Sorry, seller not responsible for taxes and duties imposed by country of the buyer.

Yeah, what the boy said.

rustneversleeps · April 2012

buyer eats the cost, no doubt.

EdsonNascimento · April 2012

It's buyer's cost. This is simple:

1) Once they pay you, it's theirs
2) Buyer can decide not to insure it (it's a piece of paper. Unless it's a $500 piece of paper, why bother? They don't lose money on insurance

)
3) If Buyer wants to insure it, that and all ancillary costs are clearly theirs. It's not sellers decision what to do with someone else's property (see #1)
4) You are not Amazon or something similar where you have a huge business that basically insures itself. So, using that type of analogy where returns are free and easy is not appropriate.

chinobaeza · April 2012

dangerboy wrote:

Sorry, seller not responsible for taxes and duties imposed by country of the buyer.

+1000
When I used to live in Chile never thought of asking the seller to split the import taxes

dangerboy · April 2012

100 Pacer wrote:

dangerboy wrote:

Sorry, seller not responsible for taxes and duties imposed by country of the buyer.

^^^

As a seller you should never undervalue a print shipped to another country.

this one is important, too. if you sell one for $500, then declare it at $100, you can only insure it for $100. if you only insure it for 100 and it gets destroyed, the seller WILL LOSE the buyer's paypal claim that item arrived not as described. your only option then will be to try to get the 100 bucks back, but then you're out the print + $400...

also, i don't do "optional" insurance. if it's more money than I, as the seller, am willing to risk losing then it gets insurance. i factor shipping into my asking price. on the other hand, i refuse to ship international almost without fail. insurance and international shipping have to be calculated first, then paid by the buyer. usually, i'll give them 10-15 credit towards that cost, since it was added to the asking price to start with....

Shorty · April 2012

OK - thanks everyone - here is the current situation.....

(Understanding - the poster is worth $200 - and I insured it for $200 - it's because of this valuation that the buyer has to pay $110.00 tax in his country before they'll release it to them)

.....now the buyer is saying - I'll have them send it back to you - send it back to me and send it with no insured value - then he won't have to pay $110.00 in taxes.

Thoughts?

Duncs · April 2012

Be careful with this...there could be duty coming back in as well as shipping charges that will be due when you re-pickup the poster at the post office. I would say tell him to eat the 110. Insured for the proper value is always the right way to go.

EdsonNascimento · April 2012

Shorty wrote:

OK - thanks everyone - here is the current situation.....

(Understanding - the poster is worth $200 - and I insured it for $200 - it's because of this valuation that the buyer has to pay $110.00 tax in his country before they'll release it to them)

.....now the buyer is saying - I'll have them send it back to you - send it back to me and send it with no insured value - then he won't have to pay $110.00 in taxes.

Thoughts?

I don't know what country, but boy you have to love National Health Care and other such Socialized things. 55% import tax? That is insane. Oops!! Wrong forum. Nevermind. Carry on. :oops:

If I was the buyer I would not have insured a $200 item. So, now they've paid $20 or so in insurance (just guessing) and need to come up with another $110 in taxes. I can understand their frustration. Not your expense, but you might want to consider trying to defray some of that just to consumate the deal. Again - I think its 100% the buyer's expense. But, reality sometimes forces other decisions.

EDIT: Realized you probably still had to declare value even if you don't insure. I agree with not undervaluing it, but I think it's fair to say you could have valued it at what you originally paid less depreciaton. And, I'd have to assume standard depreciaton on a piece of paper is pretty close to 100% once it leaves the shop.

dangerboy · April 2012

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Shorty wrote:

OK - thanks everyone - here is the current situation.....

(Understanding - the poster is worth $200 - and I insured it for $200 - it's because of this valuation that the buyer has to pay $110.00 tax in his country before they'll release it to them)

.....now the buyer is saying - I'll have them send it back to you - send it back to me and send it with no insured value - then he won't have to pay $110.00 in taxes.

Thoughts?

I don't know what country, but boy you have to love National Health Care and other such Socialized things. 55% import tax? That is insane. Oops!! Wrong forum. Nevermind. Carry on. :oops:

If I was the buyer I would not have insured a $200 item. So, now they've paid $20 or so in insurance (just guessing) and need to come up with another $110 in taxes. I can understand their frustration. Not your expense, but you might want to consider trying to defray some of that just to consumate the deal. Again - I think its 100% the buyer's expense. But, reality sometimes forces other decisions.

EDIT: Realized you probably still had to declare value even if you don't insure. I agree with not undervaluing it, but I think it's fair to say you could have valued it at what you originally paid less depreciaton. And, I'd have to assume standard depreciaton on a piece of paper is pretty close to 100% once it leaves the shop.

insurance is not just to protect the buyer. i don't offer it as an "option".i require it and won't sell you the item if you don't agree, especially international. trust me: lost one "item not as described" claim through paypal, even though you can provide them copies of ebay messages wherein the buyer DECLINED insurance, and you'll change your tune. they don't care. it's on the seller.

as to your edit, you cannot insure for more than the value declared. if you like playing the odds, fine. i work too hard for my money to risk it at the hands of some pissed off mailman or international cargo worker.

my bottom line is: anyone who doesn't insure a package they are SENDING containing an item they've SOLD is risking every cent of it. there's no other way around it. like my dad always said "it's all fun and games til somebody needs stitches, isn't it?" you'll think not insuring is awesome until you lose money when an item gets damaged. and it will.

100 Pacer · April 2012

dangerboy wrote:

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Shorty wrote:

OK - thanks everyone - here is the current situation.....

(Understanding - the poster is worth $200 - and I insured it for $200 - it's because of this valuation that the buyer has to pay $110.00 tax in his country before they'll release it to them)

.....now the buyer is saying - I'll have them send it back to you - send it back to me and send it with no insured value - then he won't have to pay $110.00 in taxes.

Thoughts?

I don't know what country, but boy you have to love National Health Care and other such Socialized things. 55% import tax? That is insane. Oops!! Wrong forum. Nevermind. Carry on. :oops:

If I was the buyer I would not have insured a $200 item. So, now they've paid $20 or so in insurance (just guessing) and need to come up with another $110 in taxes. I can understand their frustration. Not your expense, but you might want to consider trying to defray some of that just to consumate the deal. Again - I think its 100% the buyer's expense. But, reality sometimes forces other decisions.

EDIT: Realized you probably still had to declare value even if you don't insure. I agree with not undervaluing it, but I think it's fair to say you could have valued it at what you originally paid less depreciaton. And, I'd have to assume standard depreciaton on a piece of paper is pretty close to 100% once it leaves the shop.

insurance is not just to protect the buyer. i don't offer it as an "option".i require it and won't sell you the item if you don't agree, especially international. trust me: lost one "item not as described" claim through paypal, even though you can provide them copies of ebay messages wherein the buyer DECLINED insurance, and you'll change your tune. they don't care. it's on the seller.

as to your edit, you cannot insure for more than the value declared. if you like playing the odds, fine. i work too hard for my money to risk it at the hands of some pissed off mailman or international cargo worker.

my bottom line is: anyone who doesn't insure a package they are SENDING containing an item they've SOLD is risking every cent of it. there's no other way around it. like my dad always said "it's all fun and games til somebody needs stitches, isn't it?" you'll think not insuring is awesome until you lose money when an item gets damaged. and it will.

Listen to what this man is telling you.

dangerboy · April 2012

Shorty wrote:

OK - thanks everyone - here is the current situation.....

(Understanding - the poster is worth $200 - and I insured it for $200 - it's because of this valuation that the buyer has to pay $110.00 tax in his country before they'll release it to them)

.....now the buyer is saying - I'll have them send it back to you - send it back to me and send it with no insured value - then he won't have to pay $110.00 in taxes.

Thoughts?

don't do it. i know you want to make the sale, but if he sends it back to you, refund him and relist...

*these opinions have been formed through the process of having bought and sold tens of thousands of dollars worth of items on ebay and forums such as this one over the last 15+ years. any advice i give you is how i would operate, and usually because i've been in that situation before.

stickman81 · April 2012

what would Yanni do?

EdsonNascimento · April 2012

dangerboy wrote:

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Shorty wrote:

OK - thanks everyone - here is the current situation.....

(Understanding - the poster is worth $200 - and I insured it for $200 - it's because of this valuation that the buyer has to pay $110.00 tax in his country before they'll release it to them)

.....now the buyer is saying - I'll have them send it back to you - send it back to me and send it with no insured value - then he won't have to pay $110.00 in taxes.

Thoughts?

I don't know what country, but boy you have to love National Health Care and other such Socialized things. 55% import tax? That is insane. Oops!! Wrong forum. Nevermind. Carry on. :oops:

If I was the buyer I would not have insured a $200 item. So, now they've paid $20 or so in insurance (just guessing) and need to come up with another $110 in taxes. I can understand their frustration. Not your expense, but you might want to consider trying to defray some of that just to consumate the deal. Again - I think its 100% the buyer's expense. But, reality sometimes forces other decisions.

EDIT: Realized you probably still had to declare value even if you don't insure. I agree with not undervaluing it, but I think it's fair to say you could have valued it at what you originally paid less depreciaton. And, I'd have to assume standard depreciaton on a piece of paper is pretty close to 100% once it leaves the shop.

insurance is not just to protect the buyer. i don't offer it as an "option".i require it and won't sell you the item if you don't agree, especially international. trust me: lost one "item not as described" claim through paypal, even though you can provide them copies of ebay messages wherein the buyer DECLINED insurance, and you'll change your tune. they don't care. it's on the seller.

as to your edit, you cannot insure for more than the value declared. if you like playing the odds, fine. i work too hard for my money to risk it at the hands of some pissed off mailman or international cargo worker.

my bottom line is: anyone who doesn't insure a package they are SENDING containing an item they've SOLD is risking every cent of it. there's no other way around it. like my dad always said "it's all fun and games til somebody needs stitches, isn't it?" you'll think not insuring is awesome until you lose money when an item gets damaged. and it will.

All well and good. As seller, I'd take that chance. First, I'm sure you didn't pay $200 for whatever it is, so you're really not out that. You're only out what you paid for it. Yes , the difference is opportunity cost, but I'm sure the insurance isn't worth the imaginary opportunity cost. And second, it's $200. I'm sure you could think of more than $200 youve wasted on crap in less time than it took you to read this. Basically, you're self insuring.

Your other option is this sceario. Is what the seller actually paid for the item worth it? Good luck, but remember, insurance companies make money, not lose it. And the less you are insuring, the more margin they take. Actuarial tables would most likely tell you this isn't worth it.

whoyouare72 · April 2012

dangerboy wrote:

Sorry, seller not responsible for taxes and duties imposed by country of the buyer.

Agreed, this cost is 100% the buyer's responsibility.

Shorty · April 2012

Thanks again for the help/info/insight folks - much appreciated.

I guess the only side of the argument that the seller would have is - "I asked you not to declair the poster's true value" - which I get - but - I didn't declaire it at any value - I insured it - and here in Canada when you do that - insurance comes in stagered amounts - so you can insure something for (I think the amounts were) $100-$200 for $x.xx. Within this range - the poster could have been worth $100.07, or $176.31, or $108.78, or $199.99 - you get my drift. Had the paperwork been for $170.00 or less - he would be paying nothing.

Does that matter at all? Now the sellers country is using what I insured it for to declaire a value on it.

I feel bad about this - I don't want him to have to ship the poster back to me just so I can send it back to him with little insurance - or still the same insurance but just show it as $170 on the paperwork.

This sucks,

EdsonNascimento · April 2012

Shorty wrote:

Thanks again for the help/info/insight folks - much appreciated.

I guess the only side of the argument that the seller would have is - "I asked you not to declair the poster's true value" - which I get - but - I didn't declaire it at any value - I insured it - and here in Canada when you do that - insurance comes in stagered amounts - so you can insure something for (I think the amounts were) $100-$200 for $x.xx. Within this range - the poster could have been worth $100.07, or $176.31, or $108.78, or $199.99 - you get my drift. Had the paperwork been for $170.00 or less - he would be paying nothing.

Does that matter at all? Now the sellers country is using what I insured it for to declaire a value on it.

I feel bad about this - I don't want him to have to ship the poster back to me just so I can send it back to him with little insurance - or still the same insurance but just show it as $170 on the paperwork.

This sucks,

Agreed. I know I've sounded like I've been saying you SHOULD pay. I earlier said - it's the buyer's responsibility. And it is. My only point is, perhaps there's something you can do to help him out. Again, no obligation. And it sucks for both of you. But, this is where philosophical meets reality. Philosophical, it's clear everyone says - it's his/her expense (I concur). Reality says ??? And that's the tough part. We don't live in the philosophical.

dimitrispearljam · April 2012

as a buyer,cos never sell anything,and i buy something expensive from usa i ask not to insurance cos of the taxis...
for a 200$ item there is no 110 taxis in any european country...there something stange here..
usally is from16-25%....
if the seller dont agree we dont do this..
the worst happens to me was this....
i bought an item cost 51$ +22$ shipping...
but by mistake..seller wrote one the Green form 510$......
when arrive at my home ,postman ask me 135$ for taxis for deliver......

100 Pacer · April 2012

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Shorty wrote:

Thanks again for the help/info/insight folks - much appreciated.

I guess the only side of the argument that the seller would have is - "I asked you not to declair the poster's true value" - which I get - but - I didn't declaire it at any value - I insured it - and here in Canada when you do that - insurance comes in stagered amounts - so you can insure something for (I think the amounts were) $100-$200 for $x.xx. Within this range - the poster could have been worth $100.07, or $176.31, or $108.78, or $199.99 - you get my drift. Had the paperwork been for $170.00 or less - he would be paying nothing.

Does that matter at all? Now the sellers country is using what I insured it for to declaire a value on it.

I feel bad about this - I don't want him to have to ship the poster back to me just so I can send it back to him with little insurance - or still the same insurance but just show it as $170 on the paperwork.

This sucks,

Agreed. I know I've sounded like I've been saying you SHOULD pay. I earlier said - it's the buyer's responsibility. And it is. My only point is, perhaps there's something you can do to help him out. Again, no obligation. And it sucks for both of you. But, this is where philosophical meets reality. Philosophical, it's clear everyone says - it's his/her expense (I concur). Reality says ??? And that's the tough part. We don't live in the philosophical.

There is no "philosophical" angle to it. This is a black and white matter, no grey in the middle here. When one purchases goods from abroad and said goods are shipped to the buyer, the buyer's home country will charge import duties/taxes/customs charges. Whether the seller is an eBay seller, a seller from this forum, an online merchant is irrelevant. All additional import taxes and fees are always the buyer's responsibility (legally).

Asking a seller to undervalue a shipment is considered mail fraud, hence it's considered illegal.

chinobaeza · April 2012

dimitrispearljam wrote:

when arrive at my home ,postman ask me 135$ for taxis for deliver......

How many "taxis" did the post man take from the post office to your home??

...just kidding

dimitrispearljam · April 2012

chinobaeza wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

when arrive at my home ,postman ask me 135$ for taxis for deliver......

How many "taxis" did the post man take from the post office to your home?? ...just kidding

EdsonNascimento · April 2012

100 Pacer wrote:

There is no "philosophical" angle to it. This is a black and white matter, no grey in the middle here. When one purchases goods from abroad and said goods are shipped to the buyer, the buyer's home country will charge import duties/taxes/customs charges. Whether the seller is an eBay seller, a seller from this forum, an online merchant is irrelevant. All additional import taxes and fees are always the buyer's responsibility (legally).

Asking a seller to undervalue a shipment is considered mail fraud, hence it's considered illegal.

Didn't explain well enough. I don't mean philosophy like Socrates. I mean common ethical philosophy. So, yes - it is black and white. Did not mean to make that sound different.

But, then reality occurs, and he's where he is. Then what? You can go with the black & white. Absolutely nothing wrong with that tact.

And, again - I don't think 1 person in here has suggested undervaluing a shipment.

100 Pacer · April 2012

EdsonNascimento wrote:

100 Pacer wrote:

There is no "philosophical" angle to it. This is a black and white matter, no grey in the middle here. When one purchases goods from abroad and said goods are shipped to the buyer, the buyer's home country will charge import duties/taxes/customs charges. Whether the seller is an eBay seller, a seller from this forum, an online merchant is irrelevant. All additional import taxes and fees are always the buyer's responsibility (legally).

Asking a seller to undervalue a shipment is considered mail fraud, hence it's considered illegal.

Didn't explain well enough. I don't mean philosophy like Socrates. I mean common ethical philosophy. So, yes - it is black and white. Did not mean to make that sound different.

But, then reality occurs, and he's where he is. Then what? You can go with the black & white. Absolutely nothing wrong with that tact.

And, again - I don't think 1 person in here has suggested undervaluing a shipment.

Shorty wrote:

OK - thanks everyone - here is the current situation.....

(Understanding - the poster is worth $200 - and I insured it for $200 - it's because of this valuation that the buyer has to pay $110.00 tax in his country before they'll release it to them)

.....now the buyer is saying - I'll have them send it back to you - send it back to me and send it with no insured value - then he won't have to pay $110.00 in taxes.

Thoughts?

vduboise · April 2012

Shorty wrote:

OK - thanks everyone - here is the current situation.....

(Understanding - the poster is worth $200 - and I insured it for $200 - it's because of this valuation that the buyer has to pay $110.00 tax in his country before they'll release it to them)

.....now the buyer is saying - I'll have them send it back to you - send it back to me and send it with no insured value - then he won't have to pay $110.00 in taxes.

Thoughts?

if he sends it back to you, is he going to give you the money again to ship it? because you're out the first shipping cost- If he's not willing to pay for it again, then he's better off just accepting the package.

Mike_McQ · April 2012

Hello everyone,

I'm confused. When does a severe tax like that get imposed? And where? I bought a poster from Demetrios and i'm in Pennsylvania and he lives in Canada and I didn't pay a thing to get it other then the asking price which included shipping.

I for one would be ok claiming $0 on the value. That tax is just a way to hold you over the coals. I'd take the risk, unless, as stated before by others, it was a serious piece. 60% is ridiculous.

Next time have the seller claim nothing and get the print for what you paid. I think people on this forum are some of the coolest folks i've met, so I would think if there was a huge mix up that arrangements could be made to sort things out.

I understand your already out 200 bucks and not knowing is tough, but insurance is a scam from the jump, we all know this. Their selling you your own fear. Perhaps if your buying a print that it of significant value, either money wise or sentimental, I wold say have the seller send the print in a much thicker and stronger tube. I've seen tubes that I could stand on, and I'm 220 pounds. The only reason you should need insurance like that is if the seller is mailing it out in a flimsy unreliable tube.

With proper handling before shipping on the sellers part, I would trust my holy grail in the mail with no insurance if the tube was top quality, thick and taped up good.

If customs opens the tube and inspects, they still have no way of knowing the value and they can't just assume.

Am I off base?

EdsonNascimento · April 2012

Mike_McQ wrote:

Hello everyone,

I'm confused. When does a severe tax like that get imposed? And where? I bought a poster from Demetrios and i'm in Pennsylvania and he lives in Canada and I didn't pay a thing to get it other then the asking price which included shipping.

I for one would be ok claiming $0 on the value. That tax is just a way to hold you over the coals. I'd take the risk, unless, as stated before by others, it was a serious piece. 60% is ridiculous.

Next time have the seller claim nothing and get the print for what you paid. I think people on this forum are some of the coolest folks i've met, so I would think if there was a huge mix up that arrangements could be made to sort things out.

I understand your already out 200 bucks and not knowing is tough, but insurance is a scam from the jump, we all know this. Their selling you your own fear. Perhaps if your buying a print that it of significant value, either money wise or sentimental, I wold say have the seller send the print in a much thicker and stronger tube. I've seen tubes that I could stand on, and I'm 220 pounds. The only reason you should need insurance like that is if the seller is mailing it out in a flimsy unreliable tube.

With proper handling before shipping on the sellers part, I would trust my holy grail in the mail with no insurance if the tube was top quality, thick and taped up good.

If customs opens the tube and inspects, they still have no way of knowing the value and they can't just assume.

Am I off base?

Amen. Do folks buy insurance for their $200 printer from Best Buy? That's the biggest scam going. We're whining about health care in this country, meanwhile we're busy insuring pieces of paper that are truly worthless to the ordinary person.

100 Pacer · April 2012

Mike_McQ wrote:

Hello everyone,

I'm confused. When does a severe tax like that get imposed? And where? I bought a poster from Demetrios and i'm in Pennsylvania and he lives in Canada and I didn't pay a thing to get it other then the asking price which included shipping.

I for one would be ok claiming $0 on the value. That tax is just a way to hold you over the coals. I'd take the risk, unless, as stated before by others, it was a serious piece. 60% is ridiculous.

Next time have the seller claim nothing and get the print for what you paid. I think people on this forum are some of the coolest folks i've met, so I would think if there was a huge mix up that arrangements could be made to sort things out.

I understand your already out 200 bucks and not knowing is tough, but insurance is a scam from the jump, we all know this. Their selling you your own fear. Perhaps if your buying a print that it of significant value, either money wise or sentimental, I wold say have the seller send the print in a much thicker and stronger tube. I've seen tubes that I could stand on, and I'm 220 pounds. The only reason you should need insurance like that is if the seller is mailing it out in a flimsy unreliable tube.

With proper handling before shipping on the sellers part, I would trust my holy grail in the mail with no insurance if the tube was top quality, thick and taped up good.

If customs opens the tube and inspects, they still have no way of knowing the value and they can't just assume.

Am I off base?

I purchased an EV Kenyon Hall poster from 10C but the poster never arrived. Of all the posters I've purchased from 10C over the years, this poster was either lost or stolen in transit. After 90 days 10C refunded the cost of the poster plus shipping back to me but I was left without the poster. The quality of 10C's poster tube wasn't called into question, nor did I doubt that 10C actually mailed the poster tube to me. Having said that, the poster didn't arrive.

If I had purchased the same poster from a private seller and paid $200 for it and it was lost or stolen in transit BUT was tracked and insured the seller would have refunded my purchase price and submitted a claim with the carrier for a refund on the postage and insured value. If an item wasn't insured and tracking wasn't provided, what prevents a dishonest buyer from receiving an item and then filing a fraudulent claim with Paypal for an item not received OR what prevents a dishonest seller from claiming an item was sent without documentation?

Unless a seller takes steps to protect his/her own interests by insuring and tracking a shipment, Paypal will almost always side against the seller. Regardless of how well I package the item, regardless of my reputation in the buyer/seller/trader community, regardless of who my buyer is the bottom line is I don't trust valuable shipments to chance or blind faith. I trust I'm not in the minority for thinking that.

W-W-Y-D?

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