What Have We Done To Iraq?

2

Comments

  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    I dont believe anything my government tells me about that day.. never will.. some person, or people were directly responsible for fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, friends losing their life that day.. doesn't matter if the official explanation is true or not.. again, it boils down to personal responsibility.. i

    But according to your logic the only person responsible is the one pulling the trigger. Therefore Hitler was innocent.
    reading the back posts, holy fuck man!? are you serious? Hitler had his own personal responsibility.. every man and woman is inclined to do the right thing..

    My logic is that of personal responsibility for your life.. and then, how it affects others.. and what you believe in.. Hitler was a person in power, and clearly made horrific choices for the the better good of man..
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    Caveeze wrote:

    We had no reason to be there, and we must answer for the crimes we participated in..

    We had no reason to be there? and how do we answer for those crimes?
  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    Idris wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:

    We had no reason to be there, and we must answer for the crimes we participated in..

    We had no reason to be there? and how do we answer for those crimes?
    In my eyes, no.. Americans had no reason to be in Iraq..

    what was the benefit from american troops being in Iraq? in your opinion?
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    and you changed your post :D
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Caveeze wrote:
    you can blame all you want, but the fact remains that people do this shit.. and until people change, this will always happen.. I have have changed.. and I will never place blame for my actions on another.. or a "political" belief..

    Personal responsibility!!! it is a wild thought...

    So Americans have no responsibility for the effects of the invasion?

    You think you can just ransack a country and then wash your hands of the consequences?
  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    you can blame all you want, but the fact remains that people do this shit.. and until people change, this will always happen.. I have have changed.. and I will never place blame for my actions on another.. or a "political" belief..

    Personal responsibility!!! it is a wild thought...

    So Americans have no responsibility for the effects of the invasion? You think you can just ransack a country and then wash your hands of the consequences?


    People do.. choices they made.. and they should be held responsible for what they have chose to do. Don't just say Americans.. many of us fought against this.

    but I am an american.. and I have ransacked no country.. I didn't vote for it, and my voice was never even heard or considered..

    The situation just blows, and I am well aware of that..

    I just can wish that persons, all around the world, will someday realize the destruction they cause.. then correct it..
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • brandon10brandon10 Posts: 1,114
    Byrnzie wrote:
    By the way, I notice that Brandon made pretty much the same points as me before I posted them. Apologies if you think I was parroting you Brandon.


    No worries. After reading the resulting posts I think both of our posts have been pointless.
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    Caveeze wrote:
    Idris wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:

    We had no reason to be there, and we must answer for the crimes we participated in..

    We had no reason to be there? and how do we answer for those crimes?
    In my eyes, no.. Americans had no reason to be in Iraq..

    Right, But America did have a reason to go into Iraq. Did they not?

    Also how do we answer for those crimes?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Caveeze wrote:
    but I am an american.. and I have ransacked no country.. I didn't vote for it, and my voice was never even heard or considered...

    But your tax dollars helped pay for it. Don't you feel even a tiny bit ashamed of, or disgusted by, what your government has done in your name?
  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    brandon10 wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    By the way, I notice that Brandon made pretty much the same points as me before I posted them. Apologies if you think I was parroting you Brandon.


    No worries. After reading the resulting posts I think both of our posts have been pointless.


    Cause and effect.. It has happened throughout time.. and until personal decisions are made to stop the cycle.. it will continue.. Don't do it! then convince your neighbor not to do it! then maybe, they will do the same..

    to tell you the truth guys, I got most fired up just by everyone saying "Americans"..

    like most of us had any say at all... its just sad.. and I , we, most change this..

    It is clear that we are all sort of on the same team.. now what has to change (including within me) to get us to unite?
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    but I am an american.. and I have ransacked no country.. I didn't vote for it, and my voice was never even heard or considered...

    But your tax dollars helped pay for it. Don't you feel even a tiny bit ashamed of, or disgusted by, what your government has done in your name?

    totally disgusted!! you knew the answer before you even asked!! :D
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    Caveeze wrote:
    In my eyes, no.. Americans had no reason to be in Iraq..

    Right, But America did have a reason to go into Iraq an be there. Did they not?

    Also how do we answer for those crimes?
  • MookiesLawMookiesLaw Posts: 158
    Caveeze wrote:
    Who is planting/has left those roadside bombs? americans?

    I don't know what article you read and I am a staunch anti-war american..

    The Arab League summit is due in Baghdad next week. It will be the first held in Baghdad since Saddam's invasion of Kuwait in 1990. It is believed that Insurgents are responsible for the increased co-ordinated bomb attacks in more than a dozen cities to prove that the government cannot keep the country safe.


    ....



    At least 26 explosions have hit cities and towns across Iraq, killing at least 49 people and wounding more than 200, despite a security clampdown before the Arab League summit in Baghdad next week.

    The day was Iraq's bloodiest in nearly a month, with the breadth of co-ordinated bombs in more than a dozen cities showing an apparent determination by insurgents to prove that the government cannot keep the country safe.

    Iraq is due to host the Arab League meeting for the first time in 20 years, and the government is anxious to show it can maintain security after the withdrawal of US troops in December.

    "The goal of today's attacks was to present a negative image of the security situation in Iraq," a government spokesman, Ali al-Dabbagh, told Reuters.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/20/iraq-bombs-kill-dozens
  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    Idris wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    In my eyes, no.. Americans had no reason to be in Iraq..

    Right, But America did have a reason to go into Iraq an be there. Did they not?

    Also how do we answer for those crimes?
    What were these "American reasons" you speak of? they were not not my reasons.. like I said, my voice was not even heard.. like many Americans, my thoughts and beliefs were just discarded. i made no difference.. we made no difference.. and that just bothers me..
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    MookiesLaw wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    Who is planting/has left those roadside bombs? americans?

    I don't know what article you read and I am a staunch anti-war american..

    The Arab League summit is due in Baghdad next week. It will be the first held in Baghdad since Saddam's invasion of Kuwait in 1990. It is believed that Insurgents are responsible for the increased co-ordinated bomb attacks in more than a dozen cities to prove that the government cannot keep the country safe.


    ....



    At least 26 explosions have hit cities and towns across Iraq, killing at least 49 people and wounding more than 200, despite a security clampdown before the Arab League summit in Baghdad next week.

    The day was Iraq's bloodiest in nearly a month, with the breadth of co-ordinated bombs in more than a dozen cities showing an apparent determination by insurgents to prove that the government cannot keep the country safe.

    Iraq is due to host the Arab League meeting for the first time in 20 years, and the government is anxious to show it can maintain security after the withdrawal of US troops in December.

    "The goal of today's attacks was to present a negative image of the security situation in Iraq," a government spokesman, Ali al-Dabbagh, told Reuters.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/20/iraq-bombs-kill-dozens
    and I would bet bet that not one of these bombs was laid by an "american".. certainly not by me..

    so what are we talking about here?
    people that have no regard for human life....
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,319
    I can only speak for myself, but I've decided a long time ago that I've given up on the Middle East. If there's ever a hint that things will change there, that reason can win over religion, I'll be among the first to encourage it. Until then, there are solvable problems worth solving. Reasonable people of the middle east should be welcomed in the sane parts of the world. Let the remaining ignoramuses battle over their holy desert. There's nothing we can ever do to stop them.
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    edited March 2012
    Caveeze wrote:
    Idris wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    In my eyes, no.. Americans had no reason to be in Iraq..

    Right, But America did have a reason to go into Iraq an be there. Did they not?

    Also how do we answer for those crimes?
    What were these "American reasons" you speak of? they were not not my reasons.. like I said, my voice was not even heard.. like many Americans, my thoughts and beliefs were just discarded. i made no difference.. we made no difference.. and that just bothers me..

    My point is,

    America had reasons to go into Iraq, whatever the reasons really are/were. They did have reasons for doing what they did. I know they are not your reasons. But they are reasons, justified or not. Right or Wrong. The US invaded another country, bombs many others etc etc for reasons.What are these reasons? Why is the US bombing and invading countries? Why does the US support dictators and corrupt governments? Why the lies? The hypocrisy?

    For what reason? Why did the US get involved in WW2? Because Hitler was bad? Because of Japan? Why does the US support Israel?

    (edit for typo)
    Post edited by Idris on
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Caveeze wrote:
    and I would bet bet that not one of these bombs was laid by an "american".. certainly not by me..

    so what are we talking about here?
    people that have no regard for human life....

    So what you're saying is that Americans are totally blameless for the state of Iraq after the American invasion and occupation which destroyed the country.

    On the subject of having no regard for human life, what's your opinion on the fact that an estimated 1 million Iraqi civilians were killed as a direct result of the U.S invasion? Are the Americans who sat in Apache helicopters and F16's and leveled whole residential areas, people who have a high regard for human life?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-NHfLTJ4Gc

    Or the U.S soldiers who shot Iraqi civilians for sport. Are they also people with a higher regard for life than those Iraqi's and members of Al-Queda now carrying out bombings in the country?

    U.S Soldier's personal testimony: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/17/w ... ctive_duty

    U.S Soldier's personal testimony: http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1919.cfm

    U.S Soldier's personal testimony: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... a&aid=9012

    http://www.zcommunications.org/burying- ... j-s-davies
    Over a year ago an international team of epidemiologists, head- ed by Les Roberts of Johns Hop- kins School of Public Health, completed a “cluster sample survey” of civilian casualties in Iraq. Its findings contradicted central elements of what politicians and journalists had presented to the U.S. public and the world. After excluding any possible statistical anomalies, they estimated that at least 98,000 Iraqi civilians had died in the previous 18 months as a direct result of the invasion and occupation of their country. They also found that violence had become the leading cause of death in Iraq during that period. Their most significant finding was that the vast majority (79 percent) of violent deaths were caused by “coalition” forces using “helicopter gunships, rockets or other forms of aerial weaponry,” and that almost half (48 percent) of these were children, with a median age of 8.
  • brandon10brandon10 Posts: 1,114
    kenny olav wrote:
    I can only speak for myself, but I've decided a long time ago that I've given up on the Middle East. If there's ever a hint that things will change there, that reason can win over religion, I'll be among the first to encourage it. Until then, there are solvable problems worth solving. Reasonable people of the middle east should be welcomed in the sane parts of the world. Let the remaining ignoramuses battle over their holy desert. There's nothing we can ever do to stop them.


    I like this. It's very close to how I feel. It's why I often stay out of the Israeli/palestine threads. If it wasn't for the idiotic blind support of our western governments for Israel, I wouldn't give a shit at all.
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,319
    Of course, under the desert is a ton of oil... and that's why our leaders need to keep doing business with them, and to intervene militarily when needed. I opposed the war in Iraq. I took to the streets twice to march against it... although I don't know if America is capable of handling an oil shock... so I too feel complicit in 'needing' that oil, and therefore accepting what that means.

    But America did not cause the strife between Sunni and Shia. I can't imagine the Middle East being peaceful had the U.S. led coalition not taken out Saddam. It could've been worse. It could still be worse. We have to stop being best buds with dictators so that we can keep all of our machines running. We need to remove ourselves from the guilt of this operation. We need to consume less and preserve more. But we won't.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,156
    What we did was take out the super crazy SOB that was keeping the rest of the crazies in line and under wraps.

    So what does the anti-US crowd want?

    Do you want the US in Iraq trying to instill order and create democracy?

    Or do you want them out and leave it to the Iraqi people to govern? I'm pretty positive that option #2 is what everyone wanted for the last decade.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Jason P wrote:
    So what does the anti-US crowd want?

    Do you want the US in Iraq trying to instill order and create democracy?

    Or do you want them out and leave it to the Iraqi people to govern? I'm pretty positive that option #2 is what everyone wanted for the last decade.

    We - the U.S & Britain - should never have gone there in the first place. According to our politicians Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that could reach our cities within 45 minutes. Remember that bullshit? The U.S had no right to invade Iraq in order to engineer regime change. The invasion was a crime.

    The gist of this thread was merely to point out that the invasion and occupation has left a legacy of routine chaos, terror, and instability.

    But we've already managed to brush it under the carpet and are looking ahead to a new campaign of terror against Iran.

    Don't be surprised the next time we get some blowback from all this shit we've laid across the World.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,156
    Byrnzie wrote:
    We - the U.S & Britain - should never have gone there in the first place. According to our politicians Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that could reach our cities within 45 minutes. Remember that bullshit? The U.S had no right to invade Iraq in order to engineer regime change. The invasion was a crime.

    The gist of this thread was merely to point out that the invasion and occupation has left a legacy of routine chaos, terror, and instability.

    But we've already managed to brush it under the carpet and are looking ahead to a new campaign of terror against Iran.

    Don't be surprised the next time we get some blowback from all this shit we've laid across the World.
    Throughout time, what is considered crime and history is determined by the victors. It may not be fair, but that is the way it plays out. Perhaps in 60-70 years we will send a consortium of dignitaries to apologize and acknowledge what has happened, but that will be long after Bush has been put in the ground (although Cheney may still exist via a Darth Vader suit ;) ).

    But unless Doc Brown gets his prototype completed, there is nothing that can be done to change the present ... although I'm concerned that Mattel only has three years left to perfect hoverboard technology.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    no one cares about iraq ... definitely not americans or the brits or canadians for that matter ... nobody cares about anyone but themselves ... africa, the middle east, central america ... it doesn't matter ...

    that is why countries can go invade others for the sole purpose of profiteering without consequence ... iraq highlights what the real problems are: ignorance, greed and apathy ... heck, someone is still pushing the saddam and genocide thing here ...
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    what have we done to iraq??

    we gave them freedom and security and forced them to take it at the barrel of a gun....







    oh wait......there is no security, and a new dictator will be in power before we know it....



    our bad..... :oops: :oops:

    :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    since i was a wee child i saw war in the middle east. i am almost 40 years old. i remember being in 1st grade and seeing the wars clips on the nightly news. i was like, what is going on? where is this place? plus all the starvation in Africa was quite alarming to me.

    since i was a little kid they been blowning one another to bit then somewhere else people are skin and bones covered in flies and sometimes eating rice and something that looks like flour with dirty water mixed into a bowl of slop.

    our lives are fucked, we are fucked, everything is fucked up.

    and then we have gw bush, cheney and rumsfeld... :evil:
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    edited March 2012
    plus
    if i lived in the desert and the women were abused nonstop
    the roads so hot that the asphalt melts
    i am a hairy bastard wearing a robe thing
    i'd probably be a surely bastard myself
    what with all the bombs going off
    gunfire day in and day out

    (am i even speaking of iraq?)

    i'd run away to europe, canada or the u.s.

    i can't tell the difference between iraq, iran, and all the other countries over there. i am sorry i just do not understand. and i am a pretty intelligent person. that area of the world is a complex screwed up disaster on sand, rock and mountainous pile of camel shit

    i am understanding afghanistan and pakistan moreso than the others.
    Post edited by chadwick on
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    chadwick wrote:
    that area of the world is a complex screwed up disaster on sand, rock and mountainous pile of camel shit.

    I used to have a similar idea in my head about India until I spent two weeks there.

    You should get yourself over to the Middle East one day and spend a few weeks there. I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised.
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    Byrnzie wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    that area of the world is a complex screwed up disaster on sand, rock and mountainous pile of camel shit.

    I used to have a similar idea in my head about India until I spent two weeks there.

    You should get yourself over to the Middle East one day and spend a few weeks there. I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised.
    enlighten me a bit, sir. how would i be surprised? surprised at how nice they are and how beautiful it is?

    i would live in india if i could... meaning.... i would stay for an extended period of time and visit nearby countries. mainly my focus would be on the spiritual aspect of my life and their eye opening ways blending together as one unit. . :mrgreen:

    i would rest and meditate under a tree along the tigris river and smoke hash and opium all day. this my life dream and goal.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    chadwick wrote:
    enlighten me a bit, sir. how would i be surprised? surprised at how nice they are and how beautiful it is?

    i would live in india if i could... meaning.... i would stay for an extended period of time and visit nearby countries. mainly my focus would be on the spiritual aspect of my life and their eye opening ways blending together as one unit. . :mrgreen:

    i would rest and meditate under a tree along the tigris river and smoke hash and opium all day. this my life dream and goal.

    It doesn't sound to me like you need enlightening.

    Seems like you have a pretty sound plan already.

    Sure there's poverty in a lot of these Middle Eastern and Asian countries, but there's also a lot more to them than that. I've been to a lot of places in the World but if you asked me what the worst place I've ever been to is I'd name a few cities in England. Places with no culture, no soul - bland, unfriendly shit piles that I'll never want to go back to again as long as I live. Whereas in, say, India, there's real poverty, but there's also colour, hospitality, culture, history, beauty, and adventure and possibility.
    As a coincidence, I was checking out Jordan on the internet the other day as I'd like to visit there in a couple of years time, and it looks like there are some amazing sights there. Morocco and Algeria too.
    Don't believe these places are only about war and poverty - they're not.
    Many people have an idea in their head about China too. But the idea and the reality are often very different.
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