Afghanistan

Halifax2TheMax

tbergs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tbergs said:

Out of My Mind and Time said:

No way. Dementia Joe killed what again in his drone strike?

So you must have just learned that our military does drone strikes because I don't recall your comments about them prior to January 2021. I'm sure you were also outraged between 2009 - 2016. Drone strikes suck when conducted under any President's tenure, especially over the last 20 years. I don't think I've seen anyone (not that I recall) cheer when there was a drone strike, but I do recall when people complain about them, when it's not their president calling the shots. Maybe complain to your rep and get some movement on capitol hill about restricting their usage instead of only caring when the other side is in power. Video game war is here to stay, but if we push for some more restrictive usage, then maybe there'll be better oversight.

I started a thread about Obama's drone strike program and how democrats were virtually silent and the thread died a very quick death. 

It truly sucks and is probably Obama's biggest failure as president, but I don't come on here and only complain when the other party is the one dropping bombs and then pretend it doesn't happen otherwise. Drone strikes have a place, but they have become far too common and the innocent casualties are disregarded.

On a similar note, my wife's side of the family had a get together a few weeks back and one her cousins used to be a contractor for the pentagon. We were all discussing programming because another cousin was talking about how he created a CRM for his clients when he mentioned that he could tell us about his work as a programmer, but it would be too gruesome and depressing. Of course we all asked why, but I had an idea of what he did based on previous comments over the years. He then briefly mentioned how he once had to design a program so a drone would only kill the driver of a vehicle and leave the passenger alive. Fucked up shit. All I know is that I remember when he was doing that type of work because he was making a shit ton of money. He doesn't do it anymore and now just spends his time day trading. What a life.

After not holding the Shrub Administration accountable for the invasion of Iraq. 22 million missing emails.

gimmesometruth27

tbergs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tbergs said:

Out of My Mind and Time said:

No way. Dementia Joe killed what again in his drone strike?

So you must have just learned that our military does drone strikes because I don't recall your comments about them prior to January 2021. I'm sure you were also outraged between 2009 - 2016. Drone strikes suck when conducted under any President's tenure, especially over the last 20 years. I don't think I've seen anyone (not that I recall) cheer when there was a drone strike, but I do recall when people complain about them, when it's not their president calling the shots. Maybe complain to your rep and get some movement on capitol hill about restricting their usage instead of only caring when the other side is in power. Video game war is here to stay, but if we push for some more restrictive usage, then maybe there'll be better oversight.

I started a thread about Obama's drone strike program and how democrats were virtually silent and the thread died a very quick death. 

It truly sucks and is probably Obama's biggest failure as president, but I don't come on here and only complain when the other party is the one dropping bombs and then pretend it doesn't happen otherwise. Drone strikes have a place, but they have become far too common and the innocent casualties are disregarded.

On a similar note, my wife's side of the family had a get together a few weeks back and one her cousins used to be a contractor for the pentagon. We were all discussing programming because another cousin was talking about how he created a CRM for his clients when he mentioned that he could tell us about his work as a programmer, but it would be too gruesome and depressing. Of course we all asked why, but I had an idea of what he did based on previous comments over the years. He then briefly mentioned how he once had to design a program so a drone would only kill the driver of a vehicle and leave the passenger alive. Fucked up shit. All I know is that I remember when he was doing that type of work because he was making a shit ton of money. He doesn't do it anymore and now just spends his time day trading. What a life.

obama had to do it. he inherited the war on turr from prior administration and it would have been political suicide for the first african american president to come in and stop the program. the neocon america uber alles movement was still pretty strong when obama came in. i wish he would have done more to stop it, but completely understand the pressure he was under to continue. back then it was not a 20 year war and the american people were not in war fatigue yet.

HughFreakingDillon

brutal. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics/kabul-drone-strike-us-military-intl-hnk/index.html

static111

HughFreakingDillon said:

brutal. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics/kabul-drone-strike-us-military-intl-hnk/index.html

I just don’t understand why people continue to be radicalized, especially after such high level heartfelt apologies….

HughFreakingDillon

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brutal. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics/kabul-drone-strike-us-military-intl-hnk/index.html

I just don’t understand why people continue to be radicalized, especially after such high level heartfelt apologies….

yeah, I saw that and i"m like "uh, you sincerely apologize? for murdering children, and that's all you got?". holy shit. 

static111

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brutal. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics/kabul-drone-strike-us-military-intl-hnk/index.html

I just don’t understand why people continue to be radicalized, especially after such high level heartfelt apologies….

yeah, I saw that and i"m like "uh, you sincerely apologize? for murdering children, and that's all you got?". holy shit. 

The sad thing is a lot  of people were rah rah rahing for Joe’s military making a “strong” move at the time of this strike.  Preemptive drone strikes aren’t good ever, bush, Obama, trump or Biden.

Halifax2TheMax

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brutal. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics/kabul-drone-strike-us-military-intl-hnk/index.html

I just don’t understand why people continue to be radicalized, especially after such high level heartfelt apologies….

yeah, I saw that and i"m like "uh, you sincerely apologize? for murdering children, and that's all you got?". holy shit. 

The sad thing is a lot  of people were rah rah rahing for Joe’s military making a “strong” move at the time of this strike.  Preemptive drone strikes aren’t good ever, bush, Obama, trump or Biden.

At least we’re out of there for now but repubs are going to run on returning. Damned if Dems do and damned if Dems dont.

My guess? Someone somewhere fed misinformation and “intelligence” to US forces for the sake of inflaming and embarrassing. In that morass of alliances and allegiances it’s not difficult to fathom. Doesn’t absolve or excuse US forces but fog of war and blowback exist.

Meltdown99

Barbers in Afghanistan's Helmand Province are now prohibited from shaving beards and playing music

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/barbers-in-afghanistan-s-helmand-province-are-now-prohibited-from-shaving-beards-and-playing-music-1.5601627?cid=sm%3Atrueanthem%3A%7B%7Bcampaignname%7D%7D%3Atwitterpost%E2%80%8B&taid=6151b94ab22f050001569595&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

Meltdown99

Taliban hang body in public; signal return to past tactics

https://apnews.com/article/afghanistan-taliban-c328e5e060d5fe7dfdc1f348b7dce10a

Looks like they are trying to get a position on the UN Human Rights Committee…

static111

Meltdown99 said:

Taliban hang body in public; signal return to past tactics

https://apnews.com/article/afghanistan-taliban-c328e5e060d5fe7dfdc1f348b7dce10a

Looks like they are trying to get a position on the UN Human Rights Committee…

This is going to end well.  Lets send them humanitarian aid.

JB16057

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/28/politics/afghanistan-biden-testimony-contradiction-fact-check/index.html 

I'll give Biden credit for ending this pointless war but why did he feel the need to lie about what his military advisors were telling him?

gimmesometruth27

JB16057 said:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/28/politics/afghanistan-biden-testimony-contradiction-fact-check/index.html 

I'll give Biden credit for ending this pointless war but why did he feel the need to lie about what his military advisors were telling him?

does it REALLY matter at this point? we are out of there. leaving 2500 troops there would not have changed anything. the afghan army was going to quit since day one. 

how do you know the advisor is not lying? does a military advisor suddenly have more credibility than the chief executive now? i guess it depends on who the chief executive is.

HughFreakingDillon

gimmesometruth27 said:

JB16057 said:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/28/politics/afghanistan-biden-testimony-contradiction-fact-check/index.html 

I'll give Biden credit for ending this pointless war but why did he feel the need to lie about what his military advisors were telling him?

does it REALLY matter at this point? we are out of there. leaving 2500 troops there would not have changed anything. the afghan army was going to quit since day one. 

how do you know the advisor is not lying? does a military advisor suddenly have more credibility than the chief executive now? i guess it depends on who the chief executive is.

well i think it kinda does. you want a major operation to not be a massive misunderstanding, or either the generals or the CIC lying about it. if it was trump, i'd be certain he was lying.  but honestly, that's a pretty big detail that he should recall, and if he doesn't, that's concerning. 

Halifax2TheMax

It’s politics. Get out and deal with the political fall out after the troops are out as opposed to “being honest” and getting ripped to shreds and pressured by politics to stay in. We’re out of that colossal waste finally.

25,000+ lies over 4 years of POOTWH and suddenly we care about the “truth?” Give me a break.

mickeyrat

 https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-afghanistan-kabul-taliban-lloyd-austin-4496393071505484162b434602776a9f

Joe Biden Afghanistan Kabul Taliban Joint Chiefs of Staff

Joint Chiefs chairman calls Afghan war a 'strategic failure'

By ROBERT BURNS and LOLITA C. BALDOR

13 mins ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The top U.S. military officer called the 20-year war in Afghanistan a “strategic failure” and acknowledged to Congress that he had favored keeping several thousand troops in the country to prevent a collapse of the U.S.-supported Kabul government and a rapid takeover by the Taliban.

Republicans on the Senate Armed Services Committee pointed to the testimony Tuesday by Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as evidence that President Joe Biden had been untruthful when, in a television interview last month, he suggested the military had not urged him to keep troops in Afghanistan.

Milley refused to say what advice he gave Biden last spring when Biden was considering whether to comply with an agreement the Trump administration had made with the Taliban to reduce the American troop presence to zero by May 2021, ending a U.S. war that began in October 2001. Testifying alongside Milley, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin also refused to reveal his advice to Biden.

Austin and Milley are scheduled to appear Wednesday before the House Armed Services Committee to review the war.

In his first congressional testimony on the tumultuous U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin on Tuesday defended the military's execution of a frantic airlift from Kabul. (Sept. 28)

Milley told the Senate committee, when pressed Tuesday, that it had been his personal opinion that at least 2,500 U.S. troops were needed to guard against a collapse of the Kabul government and a return to Taliban rule.

Defying U.S. intelligence assessments, the Afghan government and its U.S.-trained army collapsed in mid-August, allowing the Taliban, which had ruled the country from 1996 to 2001, to capture Kabul with what Milley described as a couple of hundred men on motorcycles, without a shot being fired. That triggered a frantic U.S. effort to evacuate American civilians, Afghan allies and others from Kabul airport.

Gen. Frank McKenzie, who as head of Central Command was overseeing U.S. troops in Afghanistan, said he shared Milley’s view that keeping a residual force there could have kept the Kabul government intact.

“I recommended that we maintain 2,500 troops in Afghanistan, and I also recommended early in the fall of 2020 that we maintain 4,500 at that time, those were my personal views,” McKenzie said. “I also had a view that the withdrawal of those forces would lead inevitably to the collapse of the Afghan military forces and eventually the Afghan government.”

The six-hour Senate hearing marked the start of what is likely to be an extended congressional review of the U.S. failures in Afghanistan. The length and depth of the hearing stood in contrast to years of limited congressional oversight of the war and the hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars it consumed.

“The Republicans' sudden interest in Afghanistan is plain old politics,” said Sen. Elizabeth Warren, a Massachusetts Democrat, who supported Biden's decision to end U.S. involvement there.

The hearing at times was contentious, as Republicans sought to portray Biden as having ignored advice from military officers and mischaracterized the military options he was presented last spring and summer.

Several Republicans tried unsuccessfully to draw Milley, McKenzie and Austin into commenting on the truthfulness of Biden’s statement to ABC News on Aug. 18, three days after the Taliban took control of Kabul, that no senior military commander had recommended against a full troop withdrawal when it was under discussion in the first months of Biden’s term.

When asked in that interview whether military advisers had recommended keeping 2,500 troops in Afghanistan, Biden replied, “No. No one said that to me that I can recall." He also said the advice “was split.”

White House press secretary Jen Psaki said Tuesday that Biden was referring to having received a range of advice.

"Regardless of the advice, it’s his decision, he’s the commander in chief,” she said.

In a blunt assessment of a war that cost 2,461 American lives, Milley said the result was years in the making.

“Outcomes in a war like this, an outcome that is a strategic failure — the enemy is in charge in Kabul, there's no way else to describe that — that is a cumulative effect of 20 years,” he said, adding that lessons need to be learned, including whether the U.S. military made the Afghans overly dependent on American technology in a mistaken effort to make the Afghan army look like the American army.

Republican Sen. Tom Cotton of Arkansas asked Milley why he did not choose to resign after his advice was rejected.

Milley, who was appointed to his position as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff by President Donald Trump and retained by Biden, said it was his responsibility to provide the commander in chief with his best advice.

“The president doesn't have to agree with that advice,” Milley said. “He doesn't have to make those decisions just because we are generals. And it would be an incredible act of political defiance for a commissioned officer to resign just because my advice was not taken."

Austin defended the military's execution of a frantic airlift from Kabul in August and asserted it will be “difficult but absolutely possible” to contain future threats from Afghanistan without troops on the ground.

Milley cited “a very real possibility” that al-Qaida or the Islamic State group's Afghanistan affiliate could reconstitute in Afghanistan under Taliban rule and present a terrorist threat to the United States in the next 12 to 36 months.

It was al-Qaida's use of Afghanistan as a base from which to plan and execute its attacks on the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, that triggered the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan a month later.

“And we must remember that the Taliban was and remains a terrorist organization and they still have not broken ties with al-Qaida,” Milley said. “I have no illusions who we are dealing with. It remains to be seen whether or not the Taliban can consolidate power or if the country will further fracture into civil war.”

Austin questioned decisions made over the 20-year course of the U.S. war in Afghanistan. In retrospect, he said, the American government may have put too much faith in its ability to build a viable Afghan government.

“We helped build a state, but we could not forge a nation,” he told the Senate committee. “The fact that the Afghan army we and our partners trained simply melted away – in many cases without firing a shot – took us all by surprise. It would be dishonest to claim otherwise.”

Asked why the United States did not foresee the rapid collapse of the Afghan army, Milley said that in his judgment the U.S. military lost its ability to see and understand the true condition of the Afghan forces when it ended the practice some years ago of having advisers alongside the Afghans on the battlefield.

“You can’t measure the human heart with a machine, you have to be there,” Milley said.

HughFreakingDillon

Halifax2TheMax said:

It’s politics. Get out and deal with the political fall out after the troops are out as opposed to “being honest” and getting ripped to shreds and pressured by politics to stay in. We’re out of that colossal waste finally.

25,000+ lies over 4 years of POOTWH and suddenly we care about the “truth?” Give me a break.

again, why does trump always have to be the new bar? we should be expecting more out of our political leaders than just "well at least he's not trump". 

and we always cared about the truth, which is why trump's constant lies were a constant thing in the news and on here. you cared about it. now you don't?

I personally want the leader of the free world to recall if he gave a pretty important order to his military generals or not. and that has nothing to do with honesty, just competency. 

Halifax2TheMax

HughFreakingDillon said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

It’s politics. Get out and deal with the political fall out after the troops are out as opposed to “being honest” and getting ripped to shreds and pressured by politics to stay in. We’re out of that colossal waste finally.

25,000+ lies over 4 years of POOTWH and suddenly we care about the “truth?” Give me a break.

again, why does trump always have to be the new bar? we should be expecting more out of our political leaders than just "well at least he's not trump". 

and we always cared about the truth, which is why trump's constant lies were a constant thing in the news and on here. you cared about it. now you don't?

I personally want the leader of the free world to recall if he gave a pretty important order to his military generals or not. and that has nothing to do with honesty, just competency. 

From the Letter From an American:

In his statement, Milley laid out the course of the war in Afghanistan. He noted that in 20 years there, more than 800,000 U.S. military personnel served; 2,461 were killed in action, 20,698 were wounded, and countless others came home with internal scars. Milley expressed his opinion that their service in Afghanistan prevented another attack on America from terrorists based there.

Then Milley talked of our exit from the country, emphasizing that it is a mistake to focus only on our rushed exit in August. In 2011, we began a long-term drawdown of troops from their peak of 97,000 U.S. troops and 41,000 NATO troops. On February 29, 2020, when the Trump administration signed an agreement with the Taliban, there were 12,600 U.S. troops, 8,000 NATO troops, and 10,500 contractors in Afghanistan. With that agreement, known as the Doha Agreement, we agreed to withdraw if the Taliban met seven conditions that would lead to a deal between the Afghan government and the Taliban, while we agreed to eight conditions.

Milley wrote that the Taliban honored only one of its seven required conditions: it did not attack U.S. personnel. It did not cut ties to al Qaeda, and it significantly increased, rather than decreased, its attacks on Afghan civilians. Nonetheless, in the 8 months after the agreement, “we reduced US military forces from 12,600 to 6,800, NATO forces from 8,000 to 5,400 and US contractors from 9,700 to 7,900….”

On November 9, 2020, six days after the presidential election, Milley and then–Secretary of Defense Mark Esper recommended stopping the withdrawal until the Taliban met the required conditions. Two days later, on November 11, then-president Trump ordered the military to withdraw all forces from Afghanistan by January 15, 2021. Blindsided, military officers were able to talk Trump out of that rushed timetable, but on November 17, Trump ordered Milley to reduce troop levels to 2,500 no later than January 15.

So, when President Biden took office, only about 3,500 U.S. troops, 5,400 NATO troops, and 6,300 contractors were still in Afghanistan, leaving him with the problem that he would have either to leave altogether or to put in more troops in anticipation of resumed hostilities with the Taliban. Biden ordered a review of the situation and ultimately decided to withdraw from the country altogether.

Milley went on to explain some of the issues that have preoccupied pundits. He said he saw no predictions that the Afghan Army would melt away in 11 days. “The speed, scale and scope of the collapse was a surprise.” He said that holding the Bagram air base would have required 5,000–6,000 additional troops and that staying on after the August 31 deadline would have required 15,000–20,000 more troops, who would have faced significant risks, including the likelihood of casualties. “While it was militarily feasible,” he wrote, “we assessed the cost to be extraordinarily high…. Therefore, we unanimously recommended that the military mission be transitioned on 31 August to a diplomatic mission in order to get out the remaining American citizens.” In response to a question from Senator King, Milley put it more clearly: “On the first of September, we were going to go to war again with the Taliban. Of that there was no doubt.”

If Biden lied to avoid getting sucked in to remaining and then called weak for changing his mind due to political pressure, so be it. POOTWH isn't the new bar, he's the standard. Look at Moscow Mitchy Baby. You can't continue to take the "high road" and play by the rules when the other side doesn't have rules, a moral compass or anything that resembles fair play or doing what is right for the nation. So Biden lied about what his generals told him and made the decision he did. Impeach him.

HughFreakingDillon

well then all your previous outrage at trump constantly lying just went down the toilet. you might want to go back and edit about 7 thousand posts. 

mrussel1

HughFreakingDillon said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

It’s politics. Get out and deal with the political fall out after the troops are out as opposed to “being honest” and getting ripped to shreds and pressured by politics to stay in. We’re out of that colossal waste finally.

25,000+ lies over 4 years of POOTWH and suddenly we care about the “truth?” Give me a break.

again, why does trump always have to be the new bar? we should be expecting more out of our political leaders than just "well at least he's not trump". 

and we always cared about the truth, which is why trump's constant lies were a constant thing in the news and on here. you cared about it. now you don't?

I personally want the leader of the free world to recall if he gave a pretty important order to his military generals or not. and that has nothing to do with honesty, just competency. 

Biden is not a peacenik, so the fact that he didn't interpret or receive advice to keep 2500 would not surprise me.  His history is such that he tends to error on the side of more military force.  Don't discount that these generals play both sides of the fence as well.  They would easily provide conflicting or vague advise in order to provide themselves cover.  

I'm not saying that did or did not happen.  I'm saying that just because these generals said what they said in front of congress doesn't mean it's exactly what happened.  At the end of the day, I'm glad we're out. If we needed 2500 to 5k to hold the gov't together, well that is the permanent and minimum number.  If the Taliban attacked, there would be some US casualties and we would end up escalating yet again.  

nicknyr15

HughFreakingDillon said:

well then all your previous outrage at trump constantly lying just went down the toilet. you might want to go back and edit about 7 thousand posts. 

Yes. Only cared about the truth the last 4 years. Now it doesn’t matter. I guess politics has become like religion to a few. In no way shape or form can you call out your own. Sad.