...And true dat on judgement. Anyone who says they don't judge people is typically called a 'liar'. We all make judgements on other people, whether we intend to or not. And like you said, not all judging is necessarily bad....
oh i judge people.. its what makes me able to dump the deceivers from my life. being able to make judgements about people is what makes my life more bearable and free from poison.
...
Everybody passes judgement on others... good and bad. It's just human nature.
We are incapable of seeing someone's true character... rather, it is derived based upon our judgements of that person's words or actions... and we cannot verify or validate whether or not those words or actions are true. So, we judge them the way we see them, by applying our viewpoints of good and bad upon them.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Again all in how you look at the world, negative or positive, and the people in it.
Judging others in my opinion is the negative response as we see here in conversation,
it is passing judgement ... a critical response.
Often people do this to shun others ... as we see in some here and to provide insult.
Otherwise it would be a compliment ... truly
The people of the world need more compliments!
A positive person looks upon others with empathy ... with understanding
attempting to feel and to find a clear impression, giving the other the benefit of a doubt.
It is seeing the good in others, which in my opinion everyone deserves.
It really comes from where your heart is concerning people in general.
Some do not believe people in general deserve this consideration and will bring up Hitler as
an example when clearly most people do not fit in the category of sociopaths or the mentally insane.
The general population with all it's flaws needs acceptance and love.
0
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
And I shall add: I have no emotional poison within me for withholding forgiveness for those I feel are unworthy of it...
...and I'm OK with that - with myself.
Just like anything else, one needs to 'deserve' forgiveness. I have no qualms in not forgiving someone - sorry if that makes me look like a cold hearted bitch and a low life. Like you, I don't hold any 'emotional poison' for doing so. I just empty it out of my system, declutter my environment. I may not forgive (nor forget) but I don't let it 'burden' me. I do not have 'hate' or 'resentment' in my heart for these people - I've 'cleared' it of potential 'poison'. If I don't believe I should be forgiving someone, this person doesn't belong in my life anyway. Need to prioritise and see what is really important to you. No one is entitled to any sentiment from anyone. No one 'owes' me any sentiment of any kind just like I don't 'owe' anyone any sentiment of any kind. I give what I want to give to whom I wish to give, and vice versa. Good or bad.
So, am I being labelled of bad/poor character yet?
Poison is a bitter pill but one that must be taken...
here is learning true forgiveness and it is there that a heart heals
without forgiveness we are no better than the one hurting
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.”
Thomas S. Szasz
Is that not a judgment itself, though?
And I shall add: I have no emotional poison within me for withholding forgiveness for those I feel are unworthy of it...
...and I'm OK with that - with myself.
well that is not my quote but I see the message in it
and I am of the direct opposite of how you feel or deal with those you think unworthy.
I have forgiven the most heinous betrayals and am a better person for it
you see for me not forgiving hinders healing allows a festering spot of contempt
to remain... forgive and I am free!
we can agree to disagree on this from which our own individual challenges come
and how we feel and deal with them
actually i wouldnt call it judging someone...i prefer more correctly to call it making a judgement. if you lie to me, if you spread lies about me to others, then i will make the call to exclude you from my life. i do not wish the liars ill, but i do not have to forgive the lies. what i will do is move on and consider you no longer a presence in my life. i do not want decievers in my life... and their poison is not something i have to swallow. i consider my actions a purge to eliminate the poison so i can regain my soul health.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I used to be nearly obsessed with my own integrity. Then life happened. And now, I feel I have a greater capacity for compassion and that's good enough.
... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
...And true dat on judgement. Anyone who says they don't judge people is typically called a 'liar'. We all make judgements on other people, whether we intend to or not. And like you said, not all judging is necessarily bad....
oh i judge people.. its what makes me able to dump the deceivers from my life. being able to make judgements about people is what makes my life more bearable and free from poison.
...
Everybody passes judgement on others... good and bad. It's just human nature.
We are incapable of seeing someone's true character... rather, it is derived based upon our judgements of that person's words or actions... and we cannot verify or validate whether or not those words or actions are true. So, we judge them the way we see them, by applying our viewpoints of good and bad upon them.
I don't think anything like 'true character' exists, and even if it did, I don't think we can access it. Not even our own. True character seems a far too simplistic shortcut for something like a life story...
... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
And I shall add: I have no emotional poison within me for withholding forgiveness for those I feel are unworthy of it...
...and I'm OK with that - with myself.
Just like anything else, one needs to 'deserve' forgiveness. I have no qualms in not forgiving someone - sorry if that makes me look like a cold hearted bitch and a low life. Like you, I don't hold any 'emotional poison' for doing so. I just empty it out of my system, declutter my environment. I may not forgive (nor forget) but I don't let it 'burden' me. I do not have 'hate' or 'resentment' in my heart for these people - I've 'cleared' it of potential 'poison'. If I don't believe I should be forgiving someone, this person doesn't belong in my life anyway. Need to prioritise and see what is really important to you. No one is entitled to any sentiment from anyone. No one 'owes' me any sentiment of any kind just like I don't 'owe' anyone any sentiment of any kind. I give what I want to give to whom I wish to give, and vice versa. Good or bad.
So, am I being labelled of bad/poor character yet?
...
I agree with both of you on this. As an example, I find it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to forgive the damage inclicted of a person by a child molestor. The victim has to live with harm inflicted by someone's selfish sexual desire. And in many cases, molestors feel no remorse because they view it as 'love'... and truely believe it to be love, when in fact, it is RAPE.
I cannot forgive someone like that. I am only human... I'm not Jesus.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't think anything like 'true character' exists, and even if it did, I don't think we can access it. Not even our own. True character seems a far too simplistic shortcut for something like a life story...
...
I believe it exists... but, it rarely (if ever) surfaces for an appearance to others.
That's why people who tell you they know your true character, don't know squat. They are passing their judgement upoon you, based upon their own world view.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
And if you were that child could you not forgive to free yourself ...
of course you must it is the healing process
this a wonderful piece on the power of forgiveness
"Forgiveness is one of the deepest and most intense spiritual manifestations. And from the spiritual perspective, it has to be completely honest, integral and absolute. It requires of a great effort and after this, follows the experience of conciliation and then balance and harmony.
Why is so difficult to forgive ? Because wounds, bruises, traumas have formed and often with innumerable crisis, which may be hidden or waiting to be resolved, but definitively with a big load of frustration, bitterness and resentment. And this is like an extremely corrosive poison that hurts and affects our whole life.
The person who has not forgiven or the one who feels that cannot forgive is severely afflicted, poisoned and full of sadness, loneliness and even of desire of revenge.
This is really mortal since the person who does not forgive, then, makes the conflict to grow, to magnify and in turn the person feels tortured.
Forgiveness is directly related to many circumstances which are very painful. The pain, the rage, the frustration have to be overcome, otherwise life will become a perpetual conflict. And we do not want to experience this. We do not want to be filled with more bitterness and hatred, we have to be free of all this.
For forgiveness to really happen, we must look not only for psychological help but also the center of the forgiveness has to come from God Himself. If God does not allow us to forgive, we may say it, or promise it or look for it but it will not last.
Forgiveness is liberating, renovating, regenerating and in addition it changes us from the victim’s position, to self confidence, appreciation and spirit of good.
How can we reconcile the issue that when we forgive, we forgive what we repudiate ?
Forgiveness is not the apology of evil, nor the justification of mistreatment and offense. It is the evocation, the clamor of the victim to God saying : Oh Lord take from me any poison that is in my heart, since this is like the smoke that hurts and blinds my vision.
Life must not coexist with infinite hate, on the contrary, it must return to Peace. And when there has been affliction, physical and moral harm, then forgiveness is a miracle, which means the direct intervention of the Presence of God.
We all make mistakes and the human being goes wrong in many ways but when there is misuse of power, abandonment, misery, then this does not go away in a moment and traces stay. Forgiveness has the wonderful aptitude to heal these deep wounds.
To forgive is really self transformation, it is like emerging of darkness, of death. Nothing can be compared to Forgiveness. It is the conciliation of heaven and earth, the annulment of evil, of sin, of pain, of conflict and even of death. The person who forgives, discovers in his heart that God exists since forgiveness is the understanding that allows to receive the grace, which means, the Presence of God in the whole plenitude of the inner life.
Then, nothing can confuse or upset us, because there is a revelation of life, there is understanding; and we forgive because we have been forgiven. It is not possible otherwise, only the one who receives forgiveness, then, receives the power of inner Peace and in this Peace, in this wonderful conciliation, God opens the heart and makes possible that we look beyond everything and beyond ourselves. And in this way, Forgiveness arises and shares the presence, the teaching, the revelation of life, where the glory of glories is born. Because Forgiveness specially is the way of grace and this is the grace of Peace."
of course one can find the power within themselves to forgive if not a believer in God
just as well.
Ya know, thinking about this thread, I think less is more when it comes to actually talking about character. It's too difficult a subject to nail down to words.
Stop talking about it and start living it. Live as true as you can and try not to judge anyone else.
I just have to say what blows my mind are the people who claim character
who are rude and disparaging to others ...
what's up with that :? someone explain that please
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
actually i wouldnt call it judging someone...i prefer more correctly to call it making a judgement. if you lie to me, if you spread lies about me to others, then i will make the call to exclude you from my life. i do not wish the liars ill, but i do not have to forgive the lies. what i will do is move on and consider you no longer a presence in my life. i do not want decievers in my life... and their poison is not something i have to swallow. i consider my actions a purge to eliminate the poison so i can regain my soul health.
Good call - and agreed!
(pandora - dishonesty, really - not needed in life, whether from others or ourselves. But at least we can control the latter)
*edit - I guess we can control the former as well...by purging as mentioned above.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I used to be nearly obsessed with my own integrity. Then life happened. And now, I feel I have a greater capacity for compassion and that's good enough.
Hiya, meems!
I'd say both qualities you mention are equally important...but I do get "then life happened".
If dishonesty is a criteria I am surprised the internet is where you flourish.
I also was surprised dishonesty, in the realm of mistreatment we incur in life,
would be that unforgivable. People lie, its pretty common. I dislike it also
and see much everywhere including here.
I do agree dishonesty is a sign of one's character but for me in the big picture of life
not something I could not understand, have empathy for, or forgive.
0
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Forgiveness is liberating, renovating, regenerating and in addition it changes us from the victim’s position, to self confidence, appreciation and spirit of good.
Freedom is found in many forms. Shedding oneself of a burden doesn't necessarily have to be about forgiving another.
We all make mistakes and the human being goes wrong in many ways but when there is misuse of power, abandonment, misery, then this does not go away in a moment and traces stay. Forgiveness has the wonderful aptitude to heal these deep wounds.
Heal whose wounds? If those of the abuser...no interest. If my own, there are other ways to get there...and in that respect, forgiveness IS an option, for me.
I just don't buy that the lack of offering forgiveness is equal to a disparity in or lacking of the soul.
We all get through our own personal traumas differently. I can respect that some rely on faith, as well as that some rely on themselves. Even somewhere in the in-between.
Forgiveness is liberating, renovating, regenerating and in addition it changes us from the victim’s position, to self confidence, appreciation and spirit of good.
Freedom is found in many forms. Shedding oneself of a burden doesn't necessarily have to be about forgiving another.
We all make mistakes and the human being goes wrong in many ways but when there is misuse of power, abandonment, misery, then this does not go away in a moment and traces stay. Forgiveness has the wonderful aptitude to heal these deep wounds.
Heal whose wounds? If those of the abuser...no interest. If my own, there are other ways to get there...and in that respect, forgiveness IS an option, for me.
I just don't buy that the lack of offering forgiveness is equal to a disparity in or lacking of the soul.
We all get through our own personal traumas differently. I can respect that some rely on faith, as well as that some rely on themselves. Even somewhere in the in-between.
Forgiveness has nothing to do with faith at all for me
as I said that piece could pertain to non believers as well
no not the abusers wounds :? so forgiveness is an option we agree then
I have sought professional help for trauma and found through that guidance
forgiving a huge part of healing. I am living proof!
0
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
If dishonesty is a criteria I am surprised the internet is where you flourish.
I also was surprised dishonesty, in the realm of mistreatment we incur in life,
would be that unforgivable. People lie, its pretty common. I dislike it also
and see much everywhere including here.
I do agree dishonesty is a sign of one's character but for me in the big picture of life
not something I could not understand, have empathy for, or forgive.
I truly don't get first part...could you explain, please?
Dishonesty comes in many forms - and some of those forms ARE unforgivable. I do realize, though, that it - like most things in life - are subjective.
If dishonesty is a criteria I am surprised the internet is where you flourish.
I also was surprised dishonesty, in the realm of mistreatment we incur in life,
would be that unforgivable. People lie, its pretty common. I dislike it also
and see much everywhere including here.
I do agree dishonesty is a sign of one's character but for me in the big picture of life
not something I could not understand, have empathy for, or forgive.
I truly don't get first part...could you explain, please?
Dishonesty comes in many forms - and some of those forms ARE unforgivable. I do realize, though, that it - like most things in life - are subjective.
I agree dishonesty comes in many forms most for me are benign in the big picture of life.
When they entail the highest form of betrayal I can see that being unforgivable for
some. But again my opinion one forgives not for the abuser but for one's own heart.
Ya know, thinking about this thread, I think less is more when it comes to actually talking about character. It's too difficult a subject to nail down to words.
Stop talking about it and start living it. Live as true as you can and try not to judge anyone else.
...
That's one of the best pieces of advice in this thread. The key word being TRY not to judge... because we ALL judge, whether we know it or not.
...
As for character... like I said, we don't know anyone's true character... only the character that is presented to us. And all that is presented to us is typically in the form of words and actions. For example, anyone can preach a sermon of peace and love, right? Charles Manson's sermons preached those very same things. Look what horror was ultimately revealed.
That said... I have run across enough bullshit in my life, I know what bullshit smells like.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
A character as in person/noun
that is something to ponder on ... I guess for me I've found them to be uplifting
type people with endearing traits. I think back on those I've had the pleasure to know
throughout my life.
A character= memorable, entertaining, unique, quick witted, intelligent
that's what comes to mind for me and I can't think of one who didn't have 'character'
as much as the next guy that is.
Bad judgement, I was thinking about also ... not good or bad character ...
who's to say for sure on that
but one's own judgement that takes action in their lives directing them
and influencing how others perceive them.
Perceive not judge ... big difference
And is it bad luck or bad judgement or a bit of both ...
Comments
Everybody passes judgement on others... good and bad. It's just human nature.
We are incapable of seeing someone's true character... rather, it is derived based upon our judgements of that person's words or actions... and we cannot verify or validate whether or not those words or actions are true. So, we judge them the way we see them, by applying our viewpoints of good and bad upon them.
Hail, Hail!!!
here is learning true forgiveness and it is there that a heart heals
without forgiveness we are no better than the one hurting
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.”
Thomas S. Szasz
Judging others in my opinion is the negative response as we see here in conversation,
it is passing judgement ... a critical response.
Often people do this to shun others ... as we see in some here and to provide insult.
Otherwise it would be a compliment ... truly
The people of the world need more compliments!
A positive person looks upon others with empathy ... with understanding
attempting to feel and to find a clear impression, giving the other the benefit of a doubt.
It is seeing the good in others, which in my opinion everyone deserves.
It really comes from where your heart is concerning people in general.
Some do not believe people in general deserve this consideration and will bring up Hitler as
an example when clearly most people do not fit in the category of sociopaths or the mentally insane.
The general population with all it's flaws needs acceptance and love.
And I shall add: I have no emotional poison within me for withholding forgiveness for those I feel are unworthy of it...
...and I'm OK with that - with myself.
Just like anything else, one needs to 'deserve' forgiveness. I have no qualms in not forgiving someone - sorry if that makes me look like a cold hearted bitch and a low life. Like you, I don't hold any 'emotional poison' for doing so. I just empty it out of my system, declutter my environment. I may not forgive (nor forget) but I don't let it 'burden' me. I do not have 'hate' or 'resentment' in my heart for these people - I've 'cleared' it of potential 'poison'. If I don't believe I should be forgiving someone, this person doesn't belong in my life anyway. Need to prioritise and see what is really important to you. No one is entitled to any sentiment from anyone. No one 'owes' me any sentiment of any kind just like I don't 'owe' anyone any sentiment of any kind. I give what I want to give to whom I wish to give, and vice versa. Good or bad.
So, am I being labelled of bad/poor character yet?
and I am of the direct opposite of how you feel or deal with those you think unworthy.
I have forgiven the most heinous betrayals and am a better person for it
you see for me not forgiving hinders healing allows a festering spot of contempt
to remain... forgive and I am free!
we can agree to disagree on this from which our own individual challenges come
and how we feel and deal with them
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I used to be nearly obsessed with my own integrity. Then life happened. And now, I feel I have a greater capacity for compassion and that's good enough.
I don't think anything like 'true character' exists, and even if it did, I don't think we can access it. Not even our own. True character seems a far too simplistic shortcut for something like a life story...
I agree with both of you on this. As an example, I find it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to forgive the damage inclicted of a person by a child molestor. The victim has to live with harm inflicted by someone's selfish sexual desire. And in many cases, molestors feel no remorse because they view it as 'love'... and truely believe it to be love, when in fact, it is RAPE.
I cannot forgive someone like that. I am only human... I'm not Jesus.
Hail, Hail!!!
I believe it exists... but, it rarely (if ever) surfaces for an appearance to others.
That's why people who tell you they know your true character, don't know squat. They are passing their judgement upoon you, based upon their own world view.
Hail, Hail!!!
of course you must it is the healing process
this a wonderful piece on the power of forgiveness
"Forgiveness is one of the deepest and most intense spiritual manifestations. And from the spiritual perspective, it has to be completely honest, integral and absolute. It requires of a great effort and after this, follows the experience of conciliation and then balance and harmony.
Why is so difficult to forgive ? Because wounds, bruises, traumas have formed and often with innumerable crisis, which may be hidden or waiting to be resolved, but definitively with a big load of frustration, bitterness and resentment. And this is like an extremely corrosive poison that hurts and affects our whole life.
The person who has not forgiven or the one who feels that cannot forgive is severely afflicted, poisoned and full of sadness, loneliness and even of desire of revenge.
This is really mortal since the person who does not forgive, then, makes the conflict to grow, to magnify and in turn the person feels tortured.
Forgiveness is directly related to many circumstances which are very painful. The pain, the rage, the frustration have to be overcome, otherwise life will become a perpetual conflict. And we do not want to experience this. We do not want to be filled with more bitterness and hatred, we have to be free of all this.
For forgiveness to really happen, we must look not only for psychological help but also the center of the forgiveness has to come from God Himself. If God does not allow us to forgive, we may say it, or promise it or look for it but it will not last.
Forgiveness is liberating, renovating, regenerating and in addition it changes us from the victim’s position, to self confidence, appreciation and spirit of good.
How can we reconcile the issue that when we forgive, we forgive what we repudiate ?
Forgiveness is not the apology of evil, nor the justification of mistreatment and offense. It is the evocation, the clamor of the victim to God saying : Oh Lord take from me any poison that is in my heart, since this is like the smoke that hurts and blinds my vision.
Life must not coexist with infinite hate, on the contrary, it must return to Peace. And when there has been affliction, physical and moral harm, then forgiveness is a miracle, which means the direct intervention of the Presence of God.
We all make mistakes and the human being goes wrong in many ways but when there is misuse of power, abandonment, misery, then this does not go away in a moment and traces stay. Forgiveness has the wonderful aptitude to heal these deep wounds.
To forgive is really self transformation, it is like emerging of darkness, of death. Nothing can be compared to Forgiveness. It is the conciliation of heaven and earth, the annulment of evil, of sin, of pain, of conflict and even of death. The person who forgives, discovers in his heart that God exists since forgiveness is the understanding that allows to receive the grace, which means, the Presence of God in the whole plenitude of the inner life.
Then, nothing can confuse or upset us, because there is a revelation of life, there is understanding; and we forgive because we have been forgiven. It is not possible otherwise, only the one who receives forgiveness, then, receives the power of inner Peace and in this Peace, in this wonderful conciliation, God opens the heart and makes possible that we look beyond everything and beyond ourselves. And in this way, Forgiveness arises and shares the presence, the teaching, the revelation of life, where the glory of glories is born. Because Forgiveness specially is the way of grace and this is the grace of Peace."
of course one can find the power within themselves to forgive if not a believer in God
just as well.
Stop talking about it and start living it. Live as true as you can and try not to judge anyone else.
who are rude and disparaging to others ...
what's up with that :? someone explain that please
(pandora - dishonesty, really - not needed in life, whether from others or ourselves. But at least we can control the latter)
*edit - I guess we can control the former as well...by purging as mentioned above.
I'd say both qualities you mention are equally important...but I do get "then life happened".
I also was surprised dishonesty, in the realm of mistreatment we incur in life,
would be that unforgivable. People lie, its pretty common. I dislike it also
and see much everywhere including here.
I do agree dishonesty is a sign of one's character but for me in the big picture of life
not something I could not understand, have empathy for, or forgive.
Heal whose wounds? If those of the abuser...no interest. If my own, there are other ways to get there...and in that respect, forgiveness IS an option, for me.
I just don't buy that the lack of offering forgiveness is equal to a disparity in or lacking of the soul.
We all get through our own personal traumas differently. I can respect that some rely on faith, as well as that some rely on themselves. Even somewhere in the in-between.
as I said that piece could pertain to non believers as well
no not the abusers wounds :? so forgiveness is an option we agree then
I have sought professional help for trauma and found through that guidance
forgiving a huge part of healing. I am living proof!
Dishonesty comes in many forms - and some of those forms ARE unforgivable. I do realize, though, that it - like most things in life - are subjective.
When they entail the highest form of betrayal I can see that being unforgivable for
some. But again my opinion one forgives not for the abuser but for one's own heart.
That's one of the best pieces of advice in this thread. The key word being TRY not to judge... because we ALL judge, whether we know it or not.
...
As for character... like I said, we don't know anyone's true character... only the character that is presented to us. And all that is presented to us is typically in the form of words and actions. For example, anyone can preach a sermon of peace and love, right? Charles Manson's sermons preached those very same things. Look what horror was ultimately revealed.
That said... I have run across enough bullshit in my life, I know what bullshit smells like.
Hail, Hail!!!
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Had to
that is something to ponder on ... I guess for me I've found them to be uplifting
type people with endearing traits. I think back on those I've had the pleasure to know
throughout my life.
A character= memorable, entertaining, unique, quick witted, intelligent
that's what comes to mind for me and I can't think of one who didn't have 'character'
as much as the next guy that is.
Bad judgement, I was thinking about also ... not good or bad character ...
who's to say for sure on that
but one's own judgement that takes action in their lives directing them
and influencing how others perceive them.
Perceive not judge ... big difference
And is it bad luck or bad judgement or a bit of both ...