Yeah, I work in statistics too - reproductive health statistics specifically. So I know exactly what each of the Guttmacher stats say & have read every study from which they came. You can argue about "typical" vs "in the month" all day & it won't matter because the study talks about both (and I never said anything to the contrary). (It would be of great benefit to you & your wife, however, for you to develop an understanding of the difference between typical & perfect contraceptive use.)
It does matter. The source specifically states the number refers to those who have used either form (pill or condoms) in the last month, then goes on to break it down further when discussing those who used it regularly/properly, etc.
What I can't understand is how a man who works in statistics can say that the second stat proves that a large number of women get more than one abortion. In fact, it gives no indication whatsoever about how many women get more than one abortion.
The stat says that 47% of women having an abortion, have had a previous abortion. Clearly, that indicates that there's a good portion of the abortion community who have at least two abortions. Do you not understand that?
And the third statistic is not a counterfactual. (From where on earth did you even get that?) It's very easy to know how many abortions women have when they use abortion as birth control for two reasons: 1. There have been millions of women - on whom data has been collected - who actually do use abortion as birth control. But they're not American women; they're women who live in countries where contraception is prohibited. 2. Women's fertility cycles/rates are not a mystery. Knowledge of fertility & some simple math tells us how many pregnancies a typical, sexually-active, non-contracepting woman will have in a lifetime. I didn't provide sources because I've provided them a million times already around here & you already have them anyway.
Obviously you don't know what the term means:
counterfactual [ˌkauntəˈfæktʃʊəl] Logic
adj
(Philosophy / Logic) expressing what has not happened but could, would, or might under differing conditions
This is by definition counterfactual. You can't know precisely how many women use abortion for birth control, let alone project the number of abortions the average woman "would have" if they did use abortion as birth control. There's tons of assumptions to come up with that counterfactual statistic.
You didn't provide a source for the amount of abortions a woman would have if it were the sole means of birth control until 45 because you most likely don't have one. You most likely made it up, or someone else did. If you do have a source, fair enough, prove it.
Typical vs perfect use is defined by consistent use or lack thereof (e.g. "in the month") and correct use or lack thereof. You're talking in circles.
Statistically speaking, your second stat doesn't indicate a damn thing except precisely what it says. Even if it provided the quantitative data you want so badly to see in it, there is no null against which to measure what even constitutes "a good portion".
Yes, I know what counterfactual means. Did you even read your own definition? Go back & read the part I underlined, and then read the part of my post that I underlined. Would it make you feel better if I rephrased it? WHEN women USE abortion as their form of birth control they TYPICALLY HAVE 30 abortions by the age of 45. Fact.
Yeah, I'd love to see how anti-abortion he'd be if he knocked me up. He'd probably show up the next day with a coat hanger, pastic bag, & a trash can. (It really would be a good experiment though - but I wouldn't sacrifice myself for it.)
Seriously... to you - and gimmie... etc... Just looking through this CRAP... It's not even worth arguing with these people... SERIOUSLY. Let them spew their support of hateful anti-woman legislation elsewhere... :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted:
Educating women who are contemplating abortion should be what we want to do
an educational mandatory movie to be viewed prior to the abortion
showing ultrasound images heartbeat
This brings the same thoughtful educated choice without being physically
invasive I don't know if they do this already
The probe thing is over the top to even allow government to mandate
It really assumes a woman is heartless when having an abortion
for most woman is extremely emotionally devastating
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the bill hasn't actually been abandoned; it's just been revised to say only abdominal ultrasounds are required, right? That's the last I heard anyway.
Gimmie, in your rant full of derogatory remarks it interests me that you said you wouldn't have to "raise" the child as part of your reasoning that's woman be allowed to make that choice in a vacuum. Why is that? Pretty sure lots of dads raise their kids.
Not to answer for gimme, but I noticed that comment too & here's my experenced take on it: Sure, lots of dads "raise" her kids. But LOTS of dads don't. I mean lots & lots of dads. And dads just aren't held to the same level of responsibility for their children that moms are. Dads can very easily just walk away. But moms are much less likely to have that option, especially if the dad walked away first. So what he said is true: dads don't really have to raise their children.
yes i agree _ and that is what i was saying. any man can have sex with someone and get them pregnant. and how often does the man walk away from that kid and that woman? waaay more than the woman leaving the kid with the dad. so that is what was meant by my statement. i thought that that was epxressed clearly and could have been picked up in context....
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
Shoving an 8 inch wand into a woman's vagina when it is not medically necessary is wrong. Doctors already do this procedure when it's needed and that should be enough. Can't believe some of the disgusting assumptions people have made about women in this thread. Very sad
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the bill hasn't actually been abandoned; it's just been revised to say only abdominal ultrasounds are required, right? That's the last I heard anyway.
The article didn't mention that, but according to the Times Dispatch, yes the bill has just been amended. The state senate in Virginia did cancel a bill that would have given legal rights to fetuses.
But, at the very least, we can agree that the name of the thread now needs to be amended.
i hope that this issue is enough to get these people voted out of office.
these people claim to be doing this out of some sense of morality under the disguise of them being anti woman and even misogynistic.
this assault on women and their civil rights should have been stopped 50 years ago.
and i ask again....
HOW IS THIS RELATED TO JOBS AND THE ECONOMY????
Well, you asked...
We have an economy that has a debt/gdp level of over 100%. A major cause of our debt problem is social insurance programs - social security and medicare/medicaid. These are funded by the generation behind. Since the babyboom generation is extensively large (and the ones behind are small), these programs will go bankrupt soon. This is not only a strain on our debt (and our economy) through obvious functions, but also through interest payments (because interest rates rise with risk). Long story short, we don't have enough people to fund these programs, and the debt associated is creating economic problems, which is constraining job creation.
So, abortion, which obviously terminates a number of would be taxpayers (down the line) paying into programs like these, is a partial cause. Since the debt associated with these programs and our government in general effects jobs and the economy, this does too.
That's one way this is related to jobs and the economy. There are others.
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the Commonwealth of Virginia has an unemployment rate of 6.2% versus the national average of 8.3%. Perhaps they have time to focus on other things.
Kind of off the main topic but in response to a post about dads raising their kids.
If you think about it the “dad” doesn’t have to be around… I’m a woman who’s parents divorced and I always lived with my dad. In my late 20’s I married and became pregnant after a few years. At 3 months along my husband left. Now this relationship was not the most healthy so him leaving me was a good thing. But he has NEVER been a part of my son’s life. Most of my family/friends are fine with this. Myself, I worry about my son. It’s not right for me to think that because this man was not so nice to me that he cannot be a good father. It’s not right for me to think that he can NEVER change. For my son’s sake I was willing to give him a chance starting with supervised visitation. But as I have said above he has never seen his son who is now 4 years old.
So when it comes to dads being dads I have seen both sides of the coin. I have a wonderful father that raised me and is one of the most important relationships of my life. Then I deal with the daily heartbreak of “what is not having a father around going to do to my son?” It honestly brings me to tears. In fact this very morning while getting ready my son says “I’m going to write my dad a letter, mom how do you spell dear?” I never bad mouth his father or try to bring him up at all. But my son sees other kids and fathers and asks “where the heck is mine?” When he asks I try to change the subject to “well not all families are the same” but when he’s older I’ll have to be a bit more real on the subject. And it’s SOOO hard! All I can do is pray that not having a father around won’t make my son feel any less of a person, or that he was abandoned.
Sorry for the long story. Guess my point was sure it should be the two people raising or not raising this child but usually (not all the time) the father has an out when the mother doesn’t. And yes I know there are situations when the mother can abandon her family and the father raises the kids but in most situations this is not the case.
On to the main topic I don’t agree with woman having to go through this procedure. Why? TMI here but I have had an abortion. Yes I was much younger. At first I was going to have this baby. One day something just clicked and I made the decision I did. My boyfriend at the time was not going to be around and it just felt wrong. I learned that this was not his first go around and he definitely wanted the procedure done. That was by far the worst, most sad day of my life. It is something I will never get over. Not that I expected special treatment but when I was signing papers, healing afterwards, I was rushed to move so the next person could come in. All I could think is “does anyone realize what I have just done?? Can I have a moment to sit here in physical and mental pain and just cry?!” I walked out alone because the nurse couldn’t find my boyfriend. He was sleeping in the waiting room. Then he went out that night, asked me to come but for obvious reasons I didn’t. I honestly cannot express how sad this day was.
Now this was my experience and mine only so I can only speak for myself. If I was made to feel worse than I already did and made to go through more physical pain that was not necessary, well what is the point in that?? Fast forward 10 plus years and I am still in pain from this experience and KNOW that I could never go through it again.
I’m completely leaving out the women raped or women doing this for medical reasons… But my guess is that most women having an abortion have somewhat the same experience I did, hence why make them go through additional completely unnecessary pain?
Yeah yeah I guess someone will say I deserve all the paid I get necessary or not….
On another topic, using abortions as birth control… I know of 2 woman who have had multiple (3-4) abortions and that to me is extremely sad/unthinkable. So I can’t ignore that some woman may use this option TOO much. But at the same time I don’t think they are the majority.
Not something I like writing about But it's an opinion/side from someone who has gone through this…
Kind of off the main topic but in response to a post about dads raising their kids.
If you think about it the “dad” doesn’t have to be around… I’m a woman who’s parents divorced and I always lived with my dad. In my late 20’s I married and became pregnant after a few years. At 3 months along my husband left. Now this relationship was not the most healthy so him leaving me was a good thing. But he has NEVER been a part of my son’s life. Most of my family/friends are fine with this. Myself, I worry about my son. It’s not right for me to think that because this man was not so nice to me that he cannot be a good father. It’s not right for me to think that he can NEVER change. For my son’s sake I was willing to give him a chance starting with supervised visitation. But as I have said above he has never seen his son who is now 4 years old.
I know what the current reality is and that not all guys are good dads. But once born, each parent technically has the same ability to walk away. And anyhow, I was just curious as to why he mentioned that.
i hope that this issue is enough to get these people voted out of office.
these people claim to be doing this out of some sense of morality under the disguise of them being anti woman and even misogynistic.
this assault on women and their civil rights should have been stopped 50 years ago.
and i ask again....
HOW IS THIS RELATED TO JOBS AND THE ECONOMY????
Well, you asked...
We have an economy that has a debt/gdp level of over 100%. A major cause of our debt problem is social insurance programs - social security and medicare/medicaid. These are funded by the generation behind. Since the babyboom generation is extensively large (and the ones behind are small), these programs will go bankrupt soon. This is not only a strain on our debt (and our economy) through obvious functions, but also through interest payments (because interest rates rise with risk). Long story short, we don't have enough people to fund these programs, and the debt associated is creating economic problems, which is constraining job creation.
So, abortion, which obviously terminates a number of would be taxpayers (down the line) paying into programs like these, is a partial cause. Since the debt associated with these programs and our government in general effects jobs and the economy, this does too.
That's one way this is related to jobs and the economy. There are others.
• Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children).[6]
• Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100–199% of the federal poverty level.* [6]
I understand your point, but based on these statistics (from guttmacher.org), I am guessing that a sizable amount of these unborn children would probably cost the taxpayers money, no?
Kind of off the main topic but in response to a post about dads raising their kids.
If you think about it the “dad” doesn’t have to be around… I’m a woman who’s parents divorced and I always lived with my dad. In my late 20’s I married and became pregnant after a few years. At 3 months along my husband left. Now this relationship was not the most healthy so him leaving me was a good thing. But he has NEVER been a part of my son’s life. Most of my family/friends are fine with this. Myself, I worry about my son. It’s not right for me to think that because this man was not so nice to me that he cannot be a good father. It’s not right for me to think that he can NEVER change. For my son’s sake I was willing to give him a chance starting with supervised visitation. But as I have said above he has never seen his son who is now 4 years old.
So when it comes to dads being dads I have seen both sides of the coin. I have a wonderful father that raised me and is one of the most important relationships of my life. Then I deal with the daily heartbreak of “what is not having a father around going to do to my son?” It honestly brings me to tears. In fact this very morning while getting ready my son says “I’m going to write my dad a letter, mom how do you spell dear?” I never bad mouth his father or try to bring him up at all. But my son sees other kids and fathers and asks “where the heck is mine?” When he asks I try to change the subject to “well not all families are the same” but when he’s older I’ll have to be a bit more real on the subject. And it’s SOOO hard! All I can do is pray that not having a father around won’t make my son feel any less of a person, or that he was abandoned.
Sorry for the long story. Guess my point was sure it should be the two people raising or not raising this child but usually (not all the time) the father has an out when the mother doesn’t. And yes I know there are situations when the mother can abandon her family and the father raises the kids but in most situations this is not the case.
On to the main topic I don’t agree with woman having to go through this procedure. Why? TMI here but I have had an abortion. Yes I was much younger. At first I was going to have this baby. One day something just clicked and I made the decision I did. My boyfriend at the time was not going to be around and it just felt wrong. I learned that this was not his first go around and he definitely wanted the procedure done. That was by far the worst, most sad day of my life. It is something I will never get over. Not that I expected special treatment but when I was signing papers, healing afterwards, I was rushed to move so the next person could come in. All I could think is “does anyone realize what I have just done?? Can I have a moment to sit here in physical and mental pain and just cry?!” I walked out alone because the nurse couldn’t find my boyfriend. He was sleeping in the waiting room. Then he went out that night, asked me to come but for obvious reasons I didn’t. I honestly cannot express how sad this day was.
Now this was my experience and mine only so I can only speak for myself. If I was made to feel worse than I already did and made to go through more physical pain that was not necessary, well what is the point in that?? Fast forward 10 plus years and I am still in pain from this experience and KNOW that I could never go through it again.
I’m completely leaving out the women raped or women doing this for medical reasons… But my guess is that most women having an abortion have somewhat the same experience I did, hence why make them go through additional completely unnecessary pain?
Yeah yeah I guess someone will say I deserve all the paid I get necessary or not….
On another topic, using abortions as birth control… I know of 2 woman who have had multiple (3-4) abortions and that to me is extremely sad/unthinkable. So I can’t ignore that some woman may use this option TOO much. But at the same time I don’t think they are the majority.
Not something I like writing about But it's an opinion/side from someone who has gone through this…
Thanks very much for sharing your valuable experiences.
And so you also agree with the punching Republicans in the face before they can get blood pressure medication mandate?
You make it very difficult to take you seriously, I can almost see you stomping your feet and holding you breath. :roll:
From what I understand blood pressure medication helps saves lives, abortion ends one but if a punch in the face would be needed to obtain life saving medication I feel those punches should be across the board to Republicans, Democrats, Independents as well as every man, woman and child. :roll:
From what I've read there have already been changes made in regards to the type of ultrasound used...so the cheap use of the word rape may no longer be an option, however I feel your little tantrum will continue.
Educating women who are contemplating abortion should be what we want to do
an educational mandatory movie to be viewed prior to the abortion
showing ultrasound images heartbeat
This brings the same thoughtful educated choice without being physically
invasive I don't know if they do this already
The probe thing is over the top to even allow government to mandate
It really assumes a woman is heartless when having an abortion
for most woman is extremely emotionally devastating
you remind me of someone i know...what's your name?
And so you also agree with the punching Republicans in the face before they can get blood pressure medication mandate?
You make it very difficult to take you seriously, I can almost see you stomping your feet and holding you breath. :roll:
From what I understand blood pressure medication helps saves lives, abortion ends one but if a punch in the face would be needed to obtain life saving medication I feel those punches should be across the board to Republicans, Democrats, Independents as well as every man, woman and child. :roll:
From what I've read there have already been changes made in regards to the type of ultrasound used...so the cheap use of the word rape may no longer be an option, however I feel your little tantrum will continue.
:roll: You just don't get it. And you totally refused to address my point, opting instead for personal attacks - but that's to be expected from people who don't even care to understand the point.
And so you also agree with the punching Republicans in the face before they can get blood pressure medication mandate?
You make it very difficult to take you seriously, I can almost see you stomping your feet and holding you breath. :roll:
From what I understand blood pressure medication helps saves lives, abortion ends one but if a punch in the face would be needed to obtain life saving medication I feel those punches should be across the board to Republicans, Democrats, Independents as well as every man, woman and child. :roll:
From what I've read there have already been changes made in regards to the type of ultrasound used...so the cheap use of the word rape may no longer be an option, however I feel your little tantrum will continue.
:roll: You just don't get it. And you totally refused to address my point, opting instead for personal attacks - but that's to be expected from people who don't even care to understand the point.
Re: is anything inserted in the vagina during an abortion without taking the ultrasound into consideration?
Yes, of course. That's how they get the fetus out...basically by sticking a vacuum attachment up there and sucking it out (sorry, but it's true). So it's really a good question. I mean, one thing's necessarily going up there, so what's the diff if it's two? .... of course, in the end the question is moot. It is ALWAYS a woman right to decide what is being done to her body.
Btw, this whole discussion relies on the supposition that women are really given a choice in the matter (I.e. refuse the ultrasound and leave the clinic or accept the ultrasound and get the abortion)... but as it is, the doctors don't ASK if they can do the ultrasound if they aren't sure of the age of the fetus. They just get you in there for the abortion, with the patient already doped up, and next thing you know they're doing an internal ultrasound. They don't allow the patient to make a decision there.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Re: is anything inserted in the vagina during an abortion without taking the ultrasound into consideration?
Yes, of course. That's how they get the fetus out...basically by sticking a vacuum attachment up there and sucking it out (sorry, but it's true). So it's really a good question. I mean, one thing's necessarily going up there, so what's the diff if it's two? ....
Well, for one thing, one is considerably larger in diameter than the other.
of course, in the end the question is moot. It is ALWAYS a woman right to decide what is being done to her body.
Btw, this whole discussion relies on the supposition that women are really given a choice in the matter... but as it is, the doctors don't ASK if they can do the ultrasound if they aren't sure of the age of the fetus. They just get you in there for the abortion, with the patient already doped up, and next thing you know they're doing an internal ultrasound. They don't allow the patient to make a decision there.
In my experience, patients can usually refuse the vaginal ultrasound.
Ultimately, though, the issue is whether it's the doctor's place (with the patient) or the government's place to decide the standard of care.
of course, in the end the question is moot. It is ALWAYS a woman right to decide what is being done to her body.
Btw, this whole discussion relies on the supposition that women are really given a choice in the matter... but as it is, the doctors don't ASK if they can do the ultrasound if they aren't sure of the age of the fetus. They just get you in there for the abortion, with the patient already doped up, and next thing you know they're doing an internal ultrasound. They don't allow the patient to make a decision there.
In my experience, patients can usually refuse the vaginal ultrasound.
Ultimately, though, the issue is whether it's the doctor's place (with the patient) or the government's place to decide the standard of care.
Well, yes, they are allowed to refuse it. What I meant is that they are not generally put in a position where they feel able to refuse. In my experience, it's sprung on them while on the operating table, legs in stirrups, with an IV of dope stuck in their arm. To me, that's not giving her opportunity to accept or refuse at all.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Typical vs perfect use is defined by consistent use or lack thereof (e.g. "in the month") and correct use or lack thereof. You're talking in circles.
Statistically speaking, your second stat doesn't indicate a damn thing except precisely what it says. Even if it provided the quantitative data you want so badly to see in it, there is no null against which to measure what even constitutes "a good portion".
Yes, I know what counterfactual means. Did you even read your own definition? Go back & read the part I underlined, and then read the part of my post that I underlined. Would it make you feel better if I rephrased it? WHEN women USE abortion as their form of birth control they TYPICALLY HAVE 30 abortions by the age of 45. Fact.
Yeah, I'd love to see how anti-abortion he'd be if he knocked me up. He'd probably show up the next day with a coat hanger, pastic bag, & a trash can.
an educational mandatory movie to be viewed prior to the abortion
showing ultrasound images heartbeat
This brings the same thoughtful educated choice without being physically
invasive I don't know if they do this already
The probe thing is over the top to even allow government to mandate
It really assumes a woman is heartless when having an abortion
for most woman is extremely emotionally devastating
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
http://news.yahoo.com/ridicule-helped-doom-va-ultrasound-130802643.html
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the bill hasn't actually been abandoned; it's just been revised to say only abdominal ultrasounds are required, right? That's the last I heard anyway.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
But, at the very least, we can agree that the name of the thread now needs to be amended.
these people claim to be doing this out of some sense of morality under the disguise of them being anti woman and even misogynistic.
this assault on women and their civil rights should have been stopped 50 years ago.
and i ask again....
HOW IS THIS RELATED TO JOBS AND THE ECONOMY????
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
well, it will probably cost a lot and increase business at ultrasound facilities. That's me being a smart ass.
Well, you asked...
We have an economy that has a debt/gdp level of over 100%. A major cause of our debt problem is social insurance programs - social security and medicare/medicaid. These are funded by the generation behind. Since the babyboom generation is extensively large (and the ones behind are small), these programs will go bankrupt soon. This is not only a strain on our debt (and our economy) through obvious functions, but also through interest payments (because interest rates rise with risk). Long story short, we don't have enough people to fund these programs, and the debt associated is creating economic problems, which is constraining job creation.
So, abortion, which obviously terminates a number of would be taxpayers (down the line) paying into programs like these, is a partial cause. Since the debt associated with these programs and our government in general effects jobs and the economy, this does too.
That's one way this is related to jobs and the economy. There are others.
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That's me being a smart ass.
If you think about it the “dad” doesn’t have to be around… I’m a woman who’s parents divorced and I always lived with my dad. In my late 20’s I married and became pregnant after a few years. At 3 months along my husband left. Now this relationship was not the most healthy so him leaving me was a good thing. But he has NEVER been a part of my son’s life. Most of my family/friends are fine with this. Myself, I worry about my son. It’s not right for me to think that because this man was not so nice to me that he cannot be a good father. It’s not right for me to think that he can NEVER change. For my son’s sake I was willing to give him a chance starting with supervised visitation. But as I have said above he has never seen his son who is now 4 years old.
So when it comes to dads being dads I have seen both sides of the coin. I have a wonderful father that raised me and is one of the most important relationships of my life. Then I deal with the daily heartbreak of “what is not having a father around going to do to my son?” It honestly brings me to tears. In fact this very morning while getting ready my son says “I’m going to write my dad a letter, mom how do you spell dear?” I never bad mouth his father or try to bring him up at all. But my son sees other kids and fathers and asks “where the heck is mine?” When he asks I try to change the subject to “well not all families are the same” but when he’s older I’ll have to be a bit more real on the subject. And it’s SOOO hard! All I can do is pray that not having a father around won’t make my son feel any less of a person, or that he was abandoned.
Sorry for the long story. Guess my point was sure it should be the two people raising or not raising this child but usually (not all the time) the father has an out when the mother doesn’t. And yes I know there are situations when the mother can abandon her family and the father raises the kids but in most situations this is not the case.
On to the main topic I don’t agree with woman having to go through this procedure. Why? TMI here but I have had an abortion. Yes I was much younger. At first I was going to have this baby. One day something just clicked and I made the decision I did. My boyfriend at the time was not going to be around and it just felt wrong. I learned that this was not his first go around and he definitely wanted the procedure done. That was by far the worst, most sad day of my life. It is something I will never get over. Not that I expected special treatment but when I was signing papers, healing afterwards, I was rushed to move so the next person could come in. All I could think is “does anyone realize what I have just done?? Can I have a moment to sit here in physical and mental pain and just cry?!” I walked out alone because the nurse couldn’t find my boyfriend. He was sleeping in the waiting room. Then he went out that night, asked me to come but for obvious reasons I didn’t. I honestly cannot express how sad this day was.
Now this was my experience and mine only so I can only speak for myself. If I was made to feel worse than I already did and made to go through more physical pain that was not necessary, well what is the point in that?? Fast forward 10 plus years and I am still in pain from this experience and KNOW that I could never go through it again.
I’m completely leaving out the women raped or women doing this for medical reasons… But my guess is that most women having an abortion have somewhat the same experience I did, hence why make them go through additional completely unnecessary pain?
Yeah yeah I guess someone will say I deserve all the paid I get necessary or not….
On another topic, using abortions as birth control… I know of 2 woman who have had multiple (3-4) abortions and that to me is extremely sad/unthinkable. So I can’t ignore that some woman may use this option TOO much. But at the same time I don’t think they are the majority.
Not something I like writing about
I know what the current reality is and that not all guys are good dads. But once born, each parent technically has the same ability to walk away. And anyhow, I was just curious as to why he mentioned that.
• Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children).[6]
• Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100–199% of the federal poverty level.* [6]
I understand your point, but based on these statistics (from guttmacher.org), I am guessing that a sizable amount of these unborn children would probably cost the taxpayers money, no?
Thanks very much for sharing your valuable experiences.
You make it very difficult to take you seriously, I can almost see you stomping your feet and holding you breath. :roll:
From what I understand blood pressure medication helps saves lives, abortion ends one but if a punch in the face would be needed to obtain life saving medication I feel those punches should be across the board to Republicans, Democrats, Independents as well as every man, woman and child. :roll:
From what I've read there have already been changes made in regards to the type of ultrasound used...so the cheap use of the word rape may no longer be an option, however I feel your little tantrum will continue.
you remind me of someone i know...what's your name?
:roll: You just don't get it. And you totally refused to address my point, opting instead for personal attacks - but that's to be expected from people who don't even care to understand the point.
...said the pot calling the kettle black.
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ridicule-helped-doom-va-ultrasound-photo-130802135.html;_ylt=AlnCPcXWigQGQrXnhIxtE361qHQA;_ylu=X3oDMTRvMWNtYmtyBG1pdANBcnRpY2xlIFJlbGF0ZWQgQ2Fyb3VzZWwEcGtnAzRmZTU3YzY4LTRjZGUtM2MwNi05ODU4LWNiMDRlYjliOTgyNgRwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFBcnRpY2xlUmVsYXRlZENhcm91c2VsVGVtcAR2ZXIDYmU2ZmQ4MTEtNWVlOC0xMWUxLTllZjUtYTJlNDQ4OTY1MTlj;_ylg=X3oDMTJwMTdnYzh1BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDNWE1YjAzNGMtNmFkNi0zNDczLTllMTAtNGE3OTkxZjY3ZWMxBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc3RvcnlwYWdlBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3
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Yes, of course. That's how they get the fetus out...basically by sticking a vacuum attachment up there and sucking it out (sorry, but it's true). So it's really a good question. I mean, one thing's necessarily going up there, so what's the diff if it's two? .... of course, in the end the question is moot. It is ALWAYS a woman right to decide what is being done to her body.
Btw, this whole discussion relies on the supposition that women are really given a choice in the matter (I.e. refuse the ultrasound and leave the clinic or accept the ultrasound and get the abortion)... but as it is, the doctors don't ASK if they can do the ultrasound if they aren't sure of the age of the fetus. They just get you in there for the abortion, with the patient already doped up, and next thing you know they're doing an internal ultrasound. They don't allow the patient to make a decision there.
Well, for one thing, one is considerably larger in diameter than the other.
In my experience, patients can usually refuse the vaginal ultrasound.
Ultimately, though, the issue is whether it's the doctor's place (with the patient) or the government's place to decide the standard of care.
Well, yes, they are allowed to refuse it. What I meant is that they are not generally put in a position where they feel able to refuse. In my experience, it's sprung on them while on the operating table, legs in stirrups, with an IV of dope stuck in their arm. To me, that's not giving her opportunity to accept or refuse at all.