The "Simple" Truth About Homosexuality in "The Bible"
DriftingByTheStorm
Posts: 8,684
DEDICATION OF THIS THREAD TO REASONED NON-INFLAMMATORY DISCUSSION.
Please THINK before responding. NO HATE. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. NO NAME CALLING.
***KAT PLEASE DELETE OFFENSIVE RESPONSES, AND DO NOT LOCK***
******MY LITTLE THREAD DEDICATED TO REASONED DEBATE******
The simple truth (and i'm not going to go too deep in to this until someone calls out for specifics, just for the sake of my time) is that VERY RARELY, IF EVER DOES ***ANY*** BOOK IN THE BIBLE SPECIFICALLY CONDONE A MALE-MALE OR FEMALE-FEMALE LOVE RELATIONSHIP.
MOST OF WHAT IS\HAS BEEN CONSTRUED AS ANTI-GAY SENTIMENT IN THE BIBLE STEMS FROM EITHER WOEFULLY IGNORANT OR MALEFICENT MISTRANSLATION OF TERMS.
The Old Testament certainly addresses a litany of morality issues, as it was clear that the Jewish people, coming out of Babylon were in deep need of "reminding" of right and wrong. The times when anything legitimately approaching condemnations of homosexuality DOES crop up in the Old Testament, these references are largely framed in the context of FERTILITY CULT WORSHIP \ PAGAN TEMPLE PROSTITUTION, ETC. (sure, we can argue over Leviticus ... but let's wait on that)
The Old Testament condemnations of SOMDOM are the ones most often confused with condemnations of "homosexuality". While in general terms Sodomites are often described as promiscuous or sexually immoral, if you read Ezekiel's claims about the sins of Sodom that list is: " pride, gluttony, sloth, greed, and failure to help the poor." Sodom was PROUD before the Lord and looked not after the care of it's own.
A Better Understanding of How The Story Of Sodom Got Perverted (haha)
The Myth of Sodom
REGARDING THE NEW TESTAMENT
THERE IS ***NOTHING*** IN THE NEW TESTAMENT REGARDING HOMOSEXUALITY ***OUTSIDE OF ROMANS***, WHICH IS REFERRING TO LONG-AGO HISTORY AND MALE TEMPLE PROSTITUTION .
Regarding Romans:
Historical & Religious Context of Romans I
EVERY OTHER SINGLE "REFERENCE" TO HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE TERM "ARSENOKOITES". (we are free to debate this here, but this is to the best of my admittedly only partial knowledge... but if you want to debate, bring something to the table besides "that's bullshit")
This term, which in the long history of the Bible was translated as ***SODOMITES*** in newer translations started to appear translated as "abusers of themselves with mankind" which has become understood to mean "homosexuals".
THE TERM ARSENOKOITES, from the greek compound word arseno-koitai, LITERALLY MEANS "‘the male who has many beds’. THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH HOMOSEXUALITY.
I am not a giant "Defender of The Bible", but if you understand that the New Testament was a MOVEMENT OF GENERAL COMPASSION FOR MANKIND ***IN RESPONSE*** TO AN OVER-LEGALISTIC MORAL SYSTEM (Jewish law) ... you would have to be completely mislead to come to think that the New Testament or the Words of Jesus would ever condemn anyone for AN EXPRESSION OF LOVE.
In fact, Jesus, who claims he came to "add to" and not "take away from" the law, buttresses his entire case for these "additions to the law" upon the notion that the old laws too much specified what SHOULD NOT be done, instead of addressing what SHOULD be done.
DO NOT KILL YOUR BROTHER, that is okay, says Jesus,
but HAVE ONLY LOVING THOUGHTS IN YOUR HEART, is BETTER.
This is where he was going.
He wanted to ELEVATE consciousness so that people no longer operated only out of FEAR of a religious law, but out of LOVE AND COMPASSION FOR EACHOTHER.
He wanted people to scrutinize their own thoughts, words and actions SO GREATLY that they ONLY ever thought, said, or did what in their heart they knew was right and honorable.
He was NEVER concerned with specific legal provisions against ANYTHING.
He simply wanted to turn people away from ignorant sin and towards LOVE FOR GOD ***AND FOR EACHOTHER***.
What place does a blanket hatred for homosexuals have ANYWHERE in this context?
People on here, if you have this belief that the New Testament is some maddeningly hypocritical Hollier Than Though rant ... i encourage \ implore you to actually pick up a copy of the bible and just read a Gospel or two.
How you could come to the conclusion that it was hateful or divisive is beyond me. The ONLY division Jesus ever acknowledges ("but to bring a sword") encouraging is between The Unrepentant Sinner and The Saved. Reading beyond this much more than Right Vs. Wrong is probably not warranted, as Jesus was in that passage attempting to illustrate that those who are lost in selfish love and sin are often "violently" opposed to the light of truth (and thus he brings a sword, or inherent conflict). Most people (who aren't trying to score political points) are generally capable of understanding at a base level what a selfish, and "evil" or "wicked" (or "godless", heaven forbid) person is. Someone who has not come to understand their own one-ness with the rest of mankind, who may prop himself up by trodding down his brother, who may do undeniable wrong (murder, theft) and certainly who has nothing but selfish love in his heart. Even then, what is implored is to love him the best you can and help him find his way - to turn the other cheek.
IF YOU HAVE OVERWHELMING HATRED IN YOUR HEART FOR ***ANY*** OF YOUR FELLOW MEN, YOU SHOULD READ THE BIBLE AND UNDERSTAND ***WHAT IT'S REALLY ALL ABOUT***.
IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO READ THE BIBLE,
READ THIS BOOK:
The Social Principles of Jesus
And you will have a MUCH MORE TOLERANT UNDERSTANDING OF THE ENTIRELY BENEVOLENT INTENTIONS OF "JESUS CHRIST" (be he man, myth, or mythologized man).
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
NEXT! ! ! ......>>>>>>>>
Thanks for the valiant research.
Interesting info amigo...always appreciate you sharing your insights about your always in-depth gnostic research....
My problem with this is....that the bible is obviously interpreted to fit the values of whichever religious sect is promoting it...and not very many people have access to the kind of info you're espousing.
Yes brother, what you say is very much "true", but even the statement you make (and i say this not to call you out, but to illustrate an all to common and unfortunate perception amongst the "enlightened") is couched in terms of latent anti-Christian (anti-religious) sentiment.
Look at your assertion another way.
From the flip side, as it were.
IS IT NOT ALSO TRUE THAT
"MISinterpretations of the bible are used to fit the values of whichever non-religious sect is condemning it"
?
I play with words upon your own quote there, to be sure,
but what I am attempting to show is that IGNORANCE ABOUNDS ON ALL SIDES.
Are there plenty of "Christians" who unknowingly lower the quality of their "own" religion by their misunderstanding?
OF COURSE.
But, verily, there are just as many if not more who, out of EQUAL IGNORANCE, condemn a religion based on false assumptions and their own type of perverse and unnecessary hate.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
and has been interpreted and re-interpreted numerous times over to mold to the values of those doing the interpreting
have you ever seen a "parallel bible" ? interesting read
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
As far as the bible is concerned....there is no "simple" truth in it.
As pointed out already it can be interpreted however you want. Some bits get ignored and others get taken literally when the bible contradicts itself
What isn't based on reason?
My arguments, or those that claim homosexuality is evil because of the bible?
I thought i based my debate on definitions of terms and context.
?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
the bible isn't based on reason.
Having reasonable debate about real life, based on a fictional book, is a fruitless endeavor. One I have taken on to maddening ends usually.
Kat wants "reasonable" debate about religion which I find difficult since religion isn't based on reason.
Best I bow out now.......
Your point would be well taken if i was arguing about the historicity of the miracles of Jesus, or of his life generally, or about God descending from heaven, or ANY sort of supernatural phenomenon etc.
However, the ONLY thing i was discussing was WHAT MORALITY IS OR IS NOT SPECIFICALLY CONDEMNED by the New and Old Testaments.
I fail to see how that qualifies as fruitless arguing over fiction.
Either homosexuality is or is not condemned specifically in the bible.
My contention is that THE VERY FEW PASSAGES THAT LEGITIMATELY MENTION THE SUBJECT do so in a context that suggests they are referring to Temple Prostitution, Fertility Cults, and the worship of Astarte (Ashtoreth).
If someone dared to even mention any specific line of scripture to contend this point, I would love to get in to a reasoned analysis of the text.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I'm very glad I did.
Those people were wonderful... So
Full of joy and kindness. Not a single person greeted me without a smile, most with a genuine kindness.
If I've said anything to lead anyone to believe that I think all Christians are evil people, let's stop that now.
Sadly I have, I'll admit, allowed my anger and frustration get the better of me in the past.
That said. I hope that we're past this time of such hate and mistrust soon.
I'd much rather sit at home with my family and watch a Pearl Jam movie.
That said, I do feel strongly that the majority of "Christians" against homosexuality hold that position because they are disgusted by it, not because they find it sinful. You can be a drunk, adulterer, idolatrous, blasphemous, heretic and that isn't nearly as bad as being a homosexual. I've heard that the word Greek word has been misinterpreted in the past, thanks for bringing it up for discussion.
you seem very well versed on the subject, so I just want to make abuduntantly clear that I'm being genuine in my questions, and not at all challenging.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
They are also not anti-gay. They opened my eyes that even the most devoted christian can realize when the leaders of their faith can be wrong. Live and let live is what he says about the subject. He doesn't go into details, so I'm sure it's not something he necessarily approves of, but he also doesn't judge.
I was shocked (in a good way) to learn that people so devoted to Christ and God and the bible could feel this way. It strengthened my faith in humanity.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
The passage that is almost ALWAYS envoked:
Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
THAT.. is the passage that most will refer to when they oppose issues, such as Gay Marriage/Gay Acceptance.
...
Nevermind that Leviticus is full of all kinds of crazy shit like:
Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (you cotton/poly blend folks are fucked)(Leviticus 19:19)
Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).
If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)
If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)
If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).
If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)
Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (the bad stoned, not the good stoned) (Leviticus 20:27)
If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)
People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)
Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
...
"That's just ancient Jew Law... and we Christians don't follow it...
...
except Leviticus 20:13."
...
That's... the simple truth.
Hail, Hail!!!
that is hysterical!!!!
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Still...the problem persists partly because, as I said...people aren't really aware of 'your' interpretation (which, to me, seems to be more of a completely reasonable version of events based on what I assume to be the common mindset in biblical days, than an interpretation)...
I think if you asked almost any christian what the bible says about homosexuality, despite their personal beliefs, they would say that the bible is against it; I spuppose that's the public opinion of interpretation?....people are...uh...ignorant to their own ignorance...?
Anyway, this is great fodder for debate with hardline, 'perverted' christians
(man...those old testament verses are hilariously horrifying. So much love!)
I question though would you say the same thing about the writings of the Tao or Quran or Talmud? or Vedic Books? Are the metaphor? Are they parables?
It is not for true believers men or women to take their choice in the affairs if God and His apostle decree otherwise. He that disobeys God and His apostle strays far indeed.
Quran 33:36
A sage
lets go of extremism
lets go of luxury
lets go of apathy.
-Lao Tzu
God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee.
The Talmud
Arjuna says in Bhagavad-gītā (6.34):
For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Krishna, and to subdue it, I think, is more difficult than controlling the wind.
The first Four random quotes I pulled off the internet. I can write a new book on teaching spiritual law based on the just on those four quotes alone. Does it mean its correct? Does it mean I take the scripts literally? Would it be be good quotes to back up the teachings of Christ? Did the Divine (Google, lol) out of randommness give me these quotes for my own spiritual purposes? Or have I just made up some bullshit? Your interpetation of things are important. Most people running around quoting out of context Bible scripture to fear you are uneducated about it use. Thus if your teachers within your house of worship have twisted the words and wisdom on your "prophet's" or God's words it has been a dis service to those who wish to learn such things.
Ever been to a Bible study, Lets Look at Mark 7:2 now lets hop to John, then this... Im like WTF? Does all have to do putting things together? Like its some bigass puzzle
There are literal translations and spiritual translations. Even wisdoms of other religions cannot be understood unless you become enlightened or "illuminated" as their masters also say. So...at that point, I mean its like learning any other subject. Either you get the math or you dont. Either you understand what happened in the War of 1812 or dont. Either you can draw in art class or you cant. But you can try and you can study and with the right teacher you will understand the math, the history or the art.
Twisting an "answer" or line in the Bible is like giving a cockamamie answer on a test to show you are knowledgable. "In the war of 1812 the people Africa and Iceland got together and made fishbat stew....all because Napoleon Bonapart's wife said let them eat cake." then its like letting all the other kids in class to cheat off your paper because youre the biggest BS'er in class. And now the whole class doesnt get it and the also have the wrong answer.
Anyway.
Most importantly, Knowledge is power in anykind of its forms. Spiritual knowledge is a great and sought after subject. Perverting people from the proper teaching of such great power could be used as control by people who run religions.
Same thing also goes for governmental laws and precendents, knowledge of such things can be twisted and interpeted, used as power and hold people in part as control and doing a disservice to the justice system.
Now put religion and the justice system and powder keg into the together both twisted as hell, uneducated or abusing their power are people in high status ... weilding their scripture and the laws of justice preying on their ignorance and fears.. Now light the keg you have a disaster. BIG TIME.
This my friends is why you keep church and state separate.
most overlooked, though, is the bible also says judge not
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
That was the intent of the New Testament... right? A New Contract with God, in which you accept His Son as your personal saviour... even if you do not have the wealth to buy your way into God's house via the portal of the Temple Priests... and you get entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven. Did I get that right?
The only time the Old Testament comes into play with Christians is when they want to use the Bible to back their arguement. The Old Testament is disregarded because it states that the Jews are the chosen people, not the Christians. But, when it is handy... regarding homosexuality and/or Creationism... the Old Testament is The Word of God.
Hail, Hail!!!
many may not beleive anything in it. and that is their right
it may be fact or fiction
but if you wish to have a discussion with those who take it as fact. its is a positive to show good argument based on whats written within it.
instead of just dumping on those with faith, show them what their book actually says. and show them that instead of the word of god they are actually taking somebody elses opinoin and basing their opinions around that
I mean... I'm feeling a bit ignored.
Godfather.
said the care bear
and you are living proof of that my friend, you show us all that it is possible,thank you Pandi.
Godfather.
Muwhahahahahaha....
oh...
you Godfather, make me happy!
i'd wanna be written about in the bible too
i guarantee many have been gay for as long as we have had wieners, rocks, sticks, and someplace to put some of those items.
homosexual cave people (and the ones before cavemen) been at it for generations.
i think they deserve to be in the bible. i bet some apostles were homosexually inclined. 12 men? come the fuck on... out of 12 dudes at least 3 are capable of getting busy with one another
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
in simple terms,
religious texts of old, the power of Love and Unity, commune of highly charged powerful spiritual souls, sex and knowledge
without going into huge lengthy discussion on here
lets just say they were spreading the love
you must remember add in the factor ...if they accepted Mary as an apostle, oracle and a hierodule who may have been just as powerful as Christ
* Bible roughly touches upon her ability to be mother and wife...although not really explaining it that way long and twisted tales
(oy!the pictures reeling through my head...and the importance of written genealogy of the descended gnostic bloodlines of these people at the Vatican, naming the possibilities of the next pure and incarnation spiritual vessel that cant be faked (I say kinda like the naming the next incarnation of the Dalai Lama)
Lord of The Rings is loosely based off the Bible..
Just wait a few thousand years.
It all comes down to changing your head~~John Lennon
MSG 6-24-08/MSG 5-21-10/Philly MIA 9-2-12/Chicago Wrigley Field 7-19-13/Brooklyn NY 1&2 10-2013/Philly 1&2 10-2013