place is a disaster over there. i haven't the answer but peace. them folks don't know the word peace.
They did, until the Zionists with their own particular brand of ethnic nationalism moved in.
It's technically England's fault as their actions after WWII led to the creation of the state. Of course, current events would be different if it were not for Germany's ethnic cleansing and Europe's overall dislike of the Jews.
But now we should focus our anger on a heavy equipment manufacturer in the U.S. who have obviously been honing their engineering of equipment since 1925 for the pure motive of the destruction of Palestine.
Oddly, some "religious" people no longer consider it the holy land. The mount of Zion (or the mountain) has been created elsewhere so they can no longer fight over it. It is a figurative spiritual place not anything earthly on a geographical map. Anyway, carry on.
It's technically England's fault as their actions after WWII led to the creation of the state. Of course, current events would be different if it were not for Germany's ethnic cleansing and Europe's overall dislike of the Jews.
Not that any of this has anything to do with the situation post 1967. But I commend you on your attempt to change the subject.
But now we should focus our anger on a heavy equipment manufacturer in the U.S. who have obviously been honing their engineering of equipment since 1925 for the pure motive of the destruction of Palestine.
Because that's what anyone in this thread has said, or even implied? :roll:
It's technically England's fault as their actions after WWII led to the creation of the state. Of course, current events would be different if it were not for Germany's ethnic cleansing and Europe's overall dislike of the Jews.
Not that any of this has anything to do with the situation post 1967. But I commend you on your attempt to change the subject.
But now we should focus our anger on a heavy equipment manufacturer in the U.S. who have obviously been honing their engineering of equipment since 1925 for the pure motive of the destruction of Palestine.
Because that's what anyone in this thread has said, or even implied? :roll:
You are implying we should boycott a company because someone is using their product in a way in which they did not engineer for that purpose. If Caterpillar was retrofitting the bulldozers before selling them directly to the Israeli military (no in both cases), I could see the argument in boycotting.
It's a dangerous path of logic to take. But based on Cat's record-setting profit margin, I take comfort that most people do not think that way.
And you are the one that derailed the thread by bringing up Zionist "root-cause" on why there is no peace in the first place. I'm guilty of further derailing the thread by responding to that comment, so be careful on where you are tossing those stones.
It's technically England's fault as their actions after WWII led to the creation of the state. Of course, current events would be different if it were not for Germany's ethnic cleansing and Europe's overall dislike of the Jews.
Not that any of this has anything to do with the situation post 1967. But I commend you on your attempt to change the subject.
But now we should focus our anger on a heavy equipment manufacturer in the U.S. who have obviously been honing their engineering of equipment since 1925 for the pure motive of the destruction of Palestine.
Because that's what anyone in this thread has said, or even implied? :roll:
You are implying we should boycott a company because someone is using their product in a way in which they did not engineer for that purpose. If Caterpillar was retrofitting the bulldozers before selling them directly to the Israeli military (no in both cases), I could see the argument in boycotting.
You are implying we should boycott a company because someone is using their product in a way in which they did not engineer for that purpose.
Not quite. Not sure about others but i am implying that CAT should be boycotted because they are selling a product knowing full well that it is then modified and used to violate Human rights and continues to do so.
If CAT didn't know that once sold, the machines are modified and used for the above then that is a different argument. The problem i have with CAT is they know exactly what the machines are used for.
You are implying we should boycott a company because someone is using their product in a way in which they did not engineer for that purpose.
This is irrelevant. Cat knows full well what their machines are being used for. Did you not read the piece I posted above that explained international law as it pertains to the sale of goods used illegally against civilians?
'Since 2003, the United Nations has begun to develop standards for corporations in the form of the U.N. Norms on the Responsibilities of Transnational Corporations and Other Business Enterprises with Regard to Human Rights. This document states that companies should not “engage in or benefit from” violations of international human rights or humanitarian law and that companies “shall further seek to ensure that the goods and services they provide will not be used to abuse human rights.”
No, but is the premise of propaganda we are given.
What? That's not even a complete sentence. What are you referring to? if your post was not even important enough for you to reread to make sure it makes sense, why should anyone else read it? lol.
As for this thread, can you people just start putting things into perspective? A corporation is selling products to an entity seeking to use it for illegal purposes. I mean, can you imagine a store that repeatedly sells weapons to a serial killer, knowing full well what they are being used for? Would you defend such a store? What is this absurdity plaguing the Train? Defenders of Republican Presidential nominees who are nothing but fascists, and in fact are so enthusiastic about their fascism that they'd probably happily agree with the accusation themselves, and corporations that are interested in nothing but capital gain at the expense of human beings.
I agree with godfather and Jason amongst others
Catapillar do nt make weapons of war. They make bulldozers.
When somebody puts in an order for 1. If theyput down ( to run over Palestinian women and children ) I'm sure the order wouldn't be processed.
So an order would be entered and the product sent. What the customer does with it is the customers responsibility . They would be provided instructions in its use and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have instructions on killing people's
I'm against Israel's policies completely and I think this is attacking the wrong people.
'Since 2003, the United Nations has begun to develop standards for corporations in the form of the U.N. Norms on the Responsibilities of Transnational Corporations and Other Business Enterprises with Regard to Human Rights. This document states that companies should not “engage in or benefit from” violations of international human rights or humanitarian law and that companies “shall further seek to ensure that the goods and services they provide will not be used to abuse human rights.”
'Since 2003, the United Nations has begun to develop standards for corporations in the form of the U.N. Norms on the Responsibilities of Transnational Corporations and Other Business Enterprises with Regard to Human Rights. This document states that companies should not “engage in or benefit from” violations of international human rights or humanitarian law and that companies “shall further seek to ensure that the goods and services they provide will not be used to abuse human rights.”
It's a bulldozer mate
If we want to get pedantic
Should we blame ford for building a motorcar that runs over people
Or a Suzuki for making a motorbike that somebody used to drive up beside an Iranian scientists car and plant a bomb on it
Should we also boycott Ll the petrol companies as they may make the fuel that runs the bulldozer
How about the company that produces the seals and gaskets that are used to maintain the. Bulldozers
And really with the a,erican gov not allowing anything against isreal in the UN with their veto's the rules stated above don't carry weight
I'm very against isreal, I'm very against the support it gets from my government and others
Ike the us.
But going against companies like catapilar is pretty weak
Anyone boycotting or asking for boycotts on all the companies that supply isreal real weapons
Weapons built with the purpose of killing
I have a ticket to drive bulldozers
Does that make me a killer
'Since 2003, the United Nations has begun to develop standards for corporations in the form of the U.N. Norms on the Responsibilities of Transnational Corporations and Other Business Enterprises with Regard to Human Rights. This document states that companies should not “engage in or benefit from” violations of international human rights or humanitarian law and that companies “shall further seek to ensure that the goods and services they provide will not be used to abuse human rights.”
If CAT has violated a UN agreement, wouldn't it be subject to the consequences necessarily, I imagine, spelled out in the "Norms."?
IS there a violation that the UN is persuing against CAT, that you know of ?
Weren't these norms and standards put in place to obliterate the need for a U.S. company being subject to boycotts, and public "badwill" ,etc. ?
I'm also wondering with regard to this paragraph from your previous sourced quote:
"Caterpillar makes the D9 to military specifications and sells the bulldozers to Israel as weapons under the U.S. Foreign Military Sales Program, a government-to-government program for selling U.S.-made defense equipment. Once exported to Israel, the bulldozers are armoured by the state-owned Israel Military Industries Ltd. Weighing roughly 64 tons, the armored D9 is more than 13 feet tall and 26 feet long with front and rear blades."
Under said "U.S. Foreign Military Sales Program", were there violations that CAT is subject to?
...Regardless, despite ALL of the above possible violations, how much percent of revenue/gross profit ARE its sales of inidividual consumer goods such as clothing & boots & hats? I'm wondering if a boycott would even be noticeable on just 10% lost sales from a boycott (which is generous) of only possible 1% or 2% of its total revenue base.
IS there a violation that the UN is persuing against CAT, that you know of ?
I'm not sure whether the U.N is pursuing this as a violation of the trading regulations. It's possible that CAT's trade with Israel is condemned under the same umbrela as U.S sales of white phosphorous shells to Israel, which also qualifies as a breach of international trading standards, for more obvious reasons.
As for the efficacy of any boycott, i expect the effect would be more symbolic than financial, but no company want it's image to be associated with such activities as house demolitions and families being buried alive.
You are implying we should boycott a company because someone is using their product in a way in which they did not engineer for that purpose.
Not quite. Not sure about others but i am implying that CAT should be boycotted because they are selling a product knowing full well that it is then modified and used to violate Human rights and continues to do so.
If CAT didn't know that once sold, the machines are modified and used for the above then that is a different argument. The problem i have with CAT is they know exactly what the machines are used for.
Right. Their shareholder meetings are protested every year, and groups have bought shares in order to speak to the board and shareholders directly. They know perfectly well what they're used for. The puzzling thing is that sales to the IDF (not directly: via the US DoD) accounts for very, very little of their annual profit (I read it was a fraction of 1%)....so why do they risk the bad press?
I'm curious why you (Jason P), think boycotting is a dangerous path of logic?
My only problem with it is that there is something out there that makes nearly every corp worth boycotting, so it's difficult to call one out while not calling out others. But we all have our own standpoints, right? If Israeli apartheid isn't a priority of your social conscience, you might not support the boycott....That's fine. But why do you think others shouldn't utilize this tool to support their beliefs and push for change? It IS mostly a symbolic gesture, but it's obviously one that gets people talking, and that's the point. Maybe one day CAT decides enough is enough with the bad press, and issues a statement condemning the demolitions. Every little bit of increased pressure helps. And if it doesn't really hurt CAT's bottom line, but raises awareness...what are you anti-boycott people getting upset about?
I wish more people shared info about the shady dealings of the corporate world...Instead, we have a bunch of people mocking the very idea of 'voting with our dollars'........One of the only ways we can affect change in this plutocratic excuse of a capitalist society we live in....why defend corporate interests before human ones? :?
What I am saying, in my opinion, is one can not say a company symbolizes
one thing when they do many things and symbolize many things to different people.
Caterpillar would symbolize something very different to me and perhaps others who see the
positive for almost a century.
It has nothing to do with what they symbolize. This is bullshit. Nobody in this thread has said anything about what Caterpillar symbolizes for the very reason that this is completely and utterly irrelevant.
This thread topic is about what Caterpillar is doing. Did you even watch the video clip in the OP? If you did then why are you so confused?
you brought up symbolize (spelling!) in your first sentence ... Caterpillar does not symbolize this to me
I really don't think you should go down that route - mocking a spelling 'error' which is not. Whilst both the 's' and the 'z' are used, symbolise is the 'proper' way to spell the word. With a 'z' it is an americanism, introduced way after the 's'. You may want to edit your post.
Now... back to the issue..... Drowned out - couldn't agree more with you.
I really don't think you should go down that route - mocking a spelling 'error' which is not. Whilst both the 's' and the 'z' are used, symbolise is the 'proper' way to spell the word. With a 'z' it is an americanism, introduced way after the 's'. You may want to edit your post.
Now... back to the issue..... Drowned out - couldn't agree more with you.
I gtta tell you guys...this thread is a laughing joke....so CAT sells a fet of it's dozers to the bad guys thru the US,
have you guys ever thought about the products sold by US companys to other nations that actually end up getting used on us ? for fuck sakes we sold arms to russia who gave them to some other bad guys that used them to attack us and you guys are cring about a freakin dozer and human rights...look at the big picture man and on top of that these guys have been shitting on their own neighbors for 2 thousand years and now CAT corp is a bad guy and you all want to ban CAT products ?....valume for everybody I'm buying !
Its not just these business practices by Cat. In my response, it was also the holding of people (employees) hostage and demanding money from the government.
For example, Godfather, you work for defense contractor Boeing. yes? 400 people from your plant are being threatened with job loss, demanding from the state billions of dollars from the Gov to keep those jobs when they certainly are already profitable, just doing it for the leverage and flexing the corporate muscle. It is really not about the employees or jobs. Its about profits. How would you feel after spending your life time there? Mad at the government for not paying ransom or mad at Boeing because they gambled with your life investment as an employee?
I may have been a little off on the exact facts.. but you have to see the point ,tribal wars have been going on for years in the middle east and and US contractors and mfgr's have worked for and supplied who ever was their friend at that given time and just about every money making business in the world is guilty of the same thing you are "botcotting" Cat for.,.you do see this right ?, not saying it's right but this is the way it is and the way it most likely always be but if you want a global economy and global trading this is the kind of shit you will always have to deal with so boycotting Cat is just a huge waste of time, the wheels of big business wont stop turning because your civil rights feelings got hurt..sorry man it is what it is.
Comments
But now we should focus our anger on a heavy equipment manufacturer in the U.S. who have obviously been honing their engineering of equipment since 1925 for the pure motive of the destruction of Palestine.
Not that any of this has anything to do with the situation post 1967. But I commend you on your attempt to change the subject.
Because that's what anyone in this thread has said, or even implied? :roll:
It's a dangerous path of logic to take. But based on Cat's record-setting profit margin, I take comfort that most people do not think that way.
And you are the one that derailed the thread by bringing up Zionist "root-cause" on why there is no peace in the first place. I'm guilty of further derailing the thread by responding to that comment, so be careful on where you are tossing those stones.
AGREED !
Godfather.
If CAT didn't know that once sold, the machines are modified and used for the above then that is a different argument. The problem i have with CAT is they know exactly what the machines are used for.
This is irrelevant. Cat knows full well what their machines are being used for. Did you not read the piece I posted above that explained international law as it pertains to the sale of goods used illegally against civilians?
'Since 2003, the United Nations has begun to develop standards for corporations in the form of the U.N. Norms on the Responsibilities of Transnational Corporations and Other Business Enterprises with Regard to Human Rights. This document states that companies should not “engage in or benefit from” violations of international human rights or humanitarian law and that companies “shall further seek to ensure that the goods and services they provide will not be used to abuse human rights.”
How is that derailing the thread? Zionism is the root cause behind the settler movement.
As for this thread, can you people just start putting things into perspective? A corporation is selling products to an entity seeking to use it for illegal purposes. I mean, can you imagine a store that repeatedly sells weapons to a serial killer, knowing full well what they are being used for? Would you defend such a store? What is this absurdity plaguing the Train? Defenders of Republican Presidential nominees who are nothing but fascists, and in fact are so enthusiastic about their fascism that they'd probably happily agree with the accusation themselves, and corporations that are interested in nothing but capital gain at the expense of human beings.
The very reason for the existence of ANY corporation that isn't a not-for-profit corporation....is ...profit.
There are some corporations that practice very foul deeds every day as part of their day-to-day operations.
It seems Caterpillar is not one of them.
They make heavy machinery. and socks & boots & hats. And they sell their products.
If they lose their sales to ANYBODY...some other heavy equipment manufacturer is waiting in line to take their place.
It's not Catepillar that's at fault here.
A bulldozer is a killing machine no matter who its sold to, if you think about it.
So is a spoon, if you ask Kevin Bacon right?
Catapillar do nt make weapons of war. They make bulldozers.
When somebody puts in an order for 1. If theyput down ( to run over Palestinian women and children ) I'm sure the order wouldn't be processed.
So an order would be entered and the product sent. What the customer does with it is the customers responsibility . They would be provided instructions in its use and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have instructions on killing people's
I'm against Israel's policies completely and I think this is attacking the wrong people.
It's a bulldozer mate
If we want to get pedantic
Should we blame ford for building a motorcar that runs over people
Or a Suzuki for making a motorbike that somebody used to drive up beside an Iranian scientists car and plant a bomb on it
Should we also boycott Ll the petrol companies as they may make the fuel that runs the bulldozer
How about the company that produces the seals and gaskets that are used to maintain the. Bulldozers
I'm very against isreal, I'm very against the support it gets from my government and others
Ike the us.
But going against companies like catapilar is pretty weak
Anyone boycotting or asking for boycotts on all the companies that supply isreal real weapons
Weapons built with the purpose of killing
I have a ticket to drive bulldozers
Does that make me a killer
If CAT has violated a UN agreement, wouldn't it be subject to the consequences necessarily, I imagine, spelled out in the "Norms."?
IS there a violation that the UN is persuing against CAT, that you know of ?
Weren't these norms and standards put in place to obliterate the need for a U.S. company being subject to boycotts, and public "badwill" ,etc. ?
I'm also wondering with regard to this paragraph from your previous sourced quote:
"Caterpillar makes the D9 to military specifications and sells the bulldozers to Israel as weapons under the U.S. Foreign Military Sales Program, a government-to-government program for selling U.S.-made defense equipment. Once exported to Israel, the bulldozers are armoured by the state-owned Israel Military Industries Ltd. Weighing roughly 64 tons, the armored D9 is more than 13 feet tall and 26 feet long with front and rear blades."
Under said "U.S. Foreign Military Sales Program", were there violations that CAT is subject to?
...Regardless, despite ALL of the above possible violations, how much percent of revenue/gross profit ARE its sales of inidividual consumer goods such as clothing & boots & hats? I'm wondering if a boycott would even be noticeable on just 10% lost sales from a boycott (which is generous) of only possible 1% or 2% of its total revenue base.
I'm not sure whether the U.N is pursuing this as a violation of the trading regulations. It's possible that CAT's trade with Israel is condemned under the same umbrela as U.S sales of white phosphorous shells to Israel, which also qualifies as a breach of international trading standards, for more obvious reasons.
As for the efficacy of any boycott, i expect the effect would be more symbolic than financial, but no company want it's image to be associated with such activities as house demolitions and families being buried alive.
Right. Their shareholder meetings are protested every year, and groups have bought shares in order to speak to the board and shareholders directly. They know perfectly well what they're used for. The puzzling thing is that sales to the IDF (not directly: via the US DoD) accounts for very, very little of their annual profit (I read it was a fraction of 1%)....so why do they risk the bad press?
I'm curious why you (Jason P), think boycotting is a dangerous path of logic?
My only problem with it is that there is something out there that makes nearly every corp worth boycotting, so it's difficult to call one out while not calling out others. But we all have our own standpoints, right? If Israeli apartheid isn't a priority of your social conscience, you might not support the boycott....That's fine. But why do you think others shouldn't utilize this tool to support their beliefs and push for change? It IS mostly a symbolic gesture, but it's obviously one that gets people talking, and that's the point. Maybe one day CAT decides enough is enough with the bad press, and issues a statement condemning the demolitions. Every little bit of increased pressure helps. And if it doesn't really hurt CAT's bottom line, but raises awareness...what are you anti-boycott people getting upset about?
I wish more people shared info about the shady dealings of the corporate world...Instead, we have a bunch of people mocking the very idea of 'voting with our dollars'........One of the only ways we can affect change in this plutocratic excuse of a capitalist society we live in....why defend corporate interests before human ones? :?
you brought up symbolize (spelling!) in your first sentence ... Caterpillar does not symbolize this to me
perhaps it is you who is confused
Now... back to the issue..... Drowned out - couldn't agree more with you.
good thing the definition is the same
So I did. My mistake.
As for my spelling, Redrock was right: English came before American, and Microsoft.
have you guys ever thought about the products sold by US companys to other nations that actually end up getting used on us ? for fuck sakes we sold arms to russia who gave them to some other bad guys that used them to attack us
Godfather.
For example, Godfather, you work for defense contractor Boeing. yes? 400 people from your plant are being threatened with job loss, demanding from the state billions of dollars from the Gov to keep those jobs when they certainly are already profitable, just doing it for the leverage and flexing the corporate muscle. It is really not about the employees or jobs. Its about profits. How would you feel after spending your life time there? Mad at the government for not paying ransom or mad at Boeing because they gambled with your life investment as an employee?
Just because they can does it mean its ethical?
No you didn't.
No they haven't.
Stop making shit up.
gotta luv CAT such an ethical company....
bend over
no !
Godfather.
Godfather.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I'll bet you that these folks will be boycotting Caterpillar. I guess taking a 50% pay cut just wasn't good enough.