The Palestinian Children In Israel's Jails

ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
edited January 2012 in A Moving Train
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ja ... ail-israel

The Palestinian children – alone and bewildered – in Israel's Al Jalame jail

Special report: Israel's military justice system is accused of mistreating Palestinian children arrested for throwing stones

Harriet Sherwood in the West Bank
Guardian.co.uk, Sunday 22 January 2012



The room is barely wider than the thin, dirty mattress that covers the floor. Behind a low concrete wall is a squat toilet, the stench from which has no escape in the windowless room. The rough concrete walls deter idle leaning; the constant overhead light inhibits sleep. The delivery of food through a low slit in the door is the only way of marking time, dividing day from night.

This is Cell 36, deep within Al Jalame prison in northern Israel. It is one of a handful of cells where Palestinian children are locked in solitary confinement for days or even weeks. One 16-year-old claimed that he had been kept in Cell 36 for 65 days.

The only escape is to the interrogation room where children are shackled, by hands and feet, to a chair while being questioned, sometimes for hours.

Most are accused of throwing stones at soldiers or settlers; some, of flinging molotov cocktails; a few, of more serious offences such as links to militant organisations or using weapons. They are also pumped for information about the activities and sympathies of their classmates, relatives and neighbours.

At the beginning, nearly all deny the accusations. Most say they are threatened; some report physical violence. Verbal abuse – "You're a dog, a son of a whore" – is common. Many are exhausted from sleep deprivation. Day after day they are fettered to the chair, then returned to solitary confinement. In the end, many sign confessions that they later say were coerced.

These claims and descriptions come from affidavits given by minors to an international human rights organisation and from interviews conducted by the Guardian. Other cells in Al Jalame and Petah Tikva prisons are also used for solitary confinement, but Cell 36 is the one cited most often in these testimonies.

Between 500 and 700 Palestinian children are arrested by Israeli soldiers each year, mostly accused of throwing stones. Since 2008, Defence for Children International (DCI) has collected sworn testimonies from 426 minors detained in Israel's military justice system.

Their statements show a pattern of night-time arrests, hands bound with plastic ties, blindfolding, physical and verbal abuse, and threats. About 9% of all those giving affidavits say they were kept in solitary confinement, although there has been a marked increase to 22% in the past six months.

Few parents are told where their children have been taken. Minors are rarely questioned in the presence of a parent, and rarely see a lawyer before or during initial interrogation. Most are detained inside Israel, making family visits very difficult.

Human rights organisations say these patterns of treatment – which are corroborated by a separate study, No Minor Matter, conducted by an Israeli group, B'Tselem – violate the international convention on the rights of the child, which Israel has ratified, and the fourth Geneva convention.


Most children maintain they are innocent of the crimes of which they are accused, despite confessions and guilty pleas, said Gerard Horton of DCI. But, he added, guilt or innocence was not an issue with regard to their treatment.

"We're not saying offences aren't committed – we're saying children have legal rights. Regardless of what they're accused of, they should not be arrested in the middle of the night in terrifying raids, they should not be painfully tied up and blindfolded sometimes for hours on end, they should be informed of the right to silence and they should be entitled to have a parent present during questioning."

Mohammad Shabrawi from the West Bank town of Tulkarm was arrested last January, aged 16, at about 2.30am. "Four soldiers entered my bedroom and said you must come with us. They didn't say why, they didn't tell me or my parents anything," he told the Guardian.

Handcuffed with a plastic tie and blindfolded, he thinks he was first taken to an Israeli settlement, where he was made to kneel – still cuffed and blindfolded – for an hour on an asphalt road in the freezing dead of night. A second journey ended at about 8am at Al Jalame detention centre, also known as Kishon prison, amid fields close to the Nazareth to Haifa road.

After a routine medical check, Shabrawi was taken to Cell 36. He spent 17 days in solitary, apart from interrogations, there and in a similar cell, No 37, he said. "I was lonely, frightened all the time and I needed someone to talk with. I was choked from being alone. I was desperate to meet anyone, speak to anyone … I was so bored that when I was out [of the cell] and saw the police, they were talking in Hebrew and I don't speak Hebrew, but I was nodding as though I understood. I was desperate to speak."

During interrogation, he was shackled. "They cursed me and threatened to arrest my family if I didn't confess," he said. He first saw a lawyer 20 days after his arrest, he said, and was charged after 25 days. "They accused me of many things," he said, adding that none of them were true.

Eventually Shabrawi confessed to membership of a banned organisation and was sentenced to 45 days. Since his release, he said, he was "now afraid of the army, afraid of being arrested." She said he had become withdrawn.

Ezz ad-Deen Ali Qadi from Ramallah, who was 17 when he was arrested last January, described similar treatment during arrest and detention. He says he was held in solitary confinement at Al Jalame for 17 days in cells 36, 37 and 38.

"I would start repeating the interrogators' questions to myself, asking myself is it true what they are accusing me of," he told the Guardian. "You feel the pressure of the cell. Then you think about your family, and you feel you are going to lose your future. You are under huge stress."

His treatment during questioning depended on the mood of his interrogators, he said. "If he is in a good mood, sometimes he allows you to sit on a chair without handcuffs. Or he may force you to sit on a small chair with an iron hoop behind it. Then he attaches your hands to the ring, and your legs to the chair legs. Sometimes you stay like that for four hours. It is painful.

"Sometimes they make fun of you. They ask if you want water, and if you say yes they bring it, but then the interrogator drinks it."

Ali Qadi did not see his parents during the 51 days he was detained before trial, he said, and was only allowed to see a lawyer after 10 days. He was accused of throwing stones and planning military operations, and after confessing was sentenced to six months in prison.The Guardian has affidavits from five other juveniles who said they were detained in solitary confinement in Al Jalame and Petah Tikva. All confessed after interrogation.

"Solitary confinement breaks the spirit of a child," said Horton. "Children say that after a week or so of this treatment, they confess simply to get out of the cell."

The Israeli security agency (ISA) – also known as Shin Bet – told the Guardian: "No one questioned, including minors, is kept alone in a cell as a punitive measure or in order to obtain a confession."

The Israeli prison service did not respond to a specific question about solitary confinement, saying only "the incarceration of prisoners…is subject to legal examination".

Juvenile detainees also allege harsh interrogation methods. The Guardian interviewed the father of a minor serving a 23-month term for throwing rocks at vehicles. Ali Odwan, from Azzun, said his son Yahir, who was 14 when he was arrested, was given electric shocks by a Taser while under interrogation.

"I visited my son in jail. I saw marks from electric shocks on both his arms, they were visible from behind the glass. I asked him if it was from electric shocks, he just nodded. He was afraid someone was listening," Odwan said.

DCI has affidavits from three minors accused of throwing stones who claim they were given electric shocks under interrogation in 2010.


Another Azzun youngster, Sameer Saher, was 13 when he was arrested at 2am. "A soldier held me upside down and took me to a window and said: 'I want to throw you from the window.' They beat me on the legs, stomach, face," he said.

His interrogators accused him of stone-throwing and demanded the names of friends who had also thrown stones. He was released without charge about 17 hours after his arrest. Now, he said, he has difficulty sleeping for fear "they will come at night and arrest me".

In response to questions about alleged ill-treatment, including electric shocks, the ISA said: "The claims that Palestinian minors were subject to interrogation techniques that include beatings, prolonged periods in handcuffs, threats, kicks, verbal abuse, humiliation, isolation and prevention of sleep are utterly baseless … Investigators act in accordance with the law and unequivocal guidelines which forbid such actions."

The Guardian has also seen rare audiovisual recordings of the interrogations of two boys, aged 14 and 15, from the village of Nabi Saleh, the scene of weekly protests against nearby settlers. Both are visibly exhausted after being arrested in the middle of the night. Their interrogations, which begin at about 9.30am, last four and five hours.

Neither is told of their legal right to remain silent, and both are repeatedly asked leading questions, including whether named people have incited them to throw stones. At one point, as one boy rests his head on the table, the interrogator flicks at him, shouting: "Lift your head, you." During the other boy's interrogation, one questioner repeatedly slams a clenched fist into his own palm in a threatening gesture. The boy breaks down in tears, saying he was due to take an exam at school that morning. "They're going to fail me, I'm going to lose the year," he sobs.

In neither case was a lawyer present during their interrogation.


Israeli military law has been applied in the West Bank since Israel occupied the territory more than 44 years ago. Since then, more than 700,000 Palestinian men, women and children have been detained under military orders.

Under military order 1651, the age of criminal responsibility is 12 years, and children under the age of 14 face a maximum of six months in prison.

However, children aged 14 and 15 could, in theory, be sentenced up to 20 years for throwing an object at a moving vehicle with the intent to harm. In practice, most sentences range between two weeks and 10 months, according to DCI.

In September 2009, a special juvenile military court was established. It sits at Ofer, a military prison outside Jerusalem, twice a week. Minors are brought into court in leg shackles and handcuffs, wearing brown prison uniforms. The proceedings are in Hebrew with intermittent translation provided by Arabic-speaking soldiers.

The Israeli prison service told the Guardian that the use of restraints in public places was permitted in cases where "there is reasonable concern that the prisoner will escape, cause damage to property or body, or will damage evidence or try to dispose of evidence".

The Guardian witnessed a case this month in which two boys, aged 15 and 17, admitted entering Israel illegally, throwing molotov cocktails and stones, starting a fire which caused extensive damage, and vandalising property. The prosecution asked for a sentence to reflect the defendants' "nationalistic motives" and to act as a deterrent.

The older boy was sentenced to 33 months in jail; the younger one, 26 months. Both were sentenced to an additional 24 months suspended and were fined 10,000 shekels (£1,700). Failure to pay the fine would mean an additional 10 months in prison.

Several British parliamentary delegations have witnessed child hearings at Ofer over the past year. Alf Dubs reported back to the House of Lords last May, saying: "We saw a 14-year-old and a 15-year-old, one of them in tears, both looking absolutely bewildered … I do not believe this process of humiliation represents justice. I believe that the way in which these young people are treated is in itself an obstacle to the achievement by Israel of a peaceful relationship with the Palestinian people."

Lisa Nandy, MP for Wigan, who witnessed the trial of a shackled 14-year-old at Ofer last month, found the experience distressing. "In five minutes he had been found guilty of stone-throwing and was sentenced to nine months. It was shocking to see a child being put through this process. It's difficult to see how a [political] solution can be reached when young people are being treated in this manner. They end up with very little hope for their future and very angry about their treatment."

Horton said a guilty plea was "the quickest way to get out of the system". If the children say their confession was coerced, "that provides them with a legal defence – but because they're denied bail they will remain in detention longer than if they had simply pleaded guilty".

An expert opinion written by Graciela Carmon, a child psychiatrist and member of Physicians for Human Rights, in May 2011, said that children were particularly vulnerable to providing a false confession under coercion.

"Although some detainees understand that providing a confession, despite their innocence, will have negative repercussions in the future, they nevertheless confess as the immediate mental and/or physical anguish they feel overrides the future implications, whatever they may be."

Nearly all the cases documented by DCI ended in a guilty plea and about three-quarters of the convicted minors were transferred to prisons inside Israel. This contravenes article 76 of the fourth Geneva convention, which requires children and adults in occupied territories to be detained within the territory.

The Israeli defence forces (IDF), responsible for arrests in the West Bank and the military judicial system said last month that the military judicial system was "underpinned by a commitment to ensure the rights of the accused, judicial impartiality and an emphasis on practising international legal norms in incredibly dangerous and complex situations".

The ISA said its employees acted in accordance with the law, and detainees were given the full rights for which they were eligible, including the right to legal counsel and visits by the Red Cross. "The ISA categorically denies all claims with regard to the interrogation of minors. In fact, the complete opposite is true – the ISA guidelines grant minors special protections needed because of their age."

Mark Regev, spokesman for the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, told the Guardian: "If detainees believe they have been mistreated, especially in the case of minors … it's very important that these people, or people representing them, come forward and raise these issues. The test of a democracy is how you treat people incarcerated, people in jail, and especially so with minors."

Stone-throwing, he added, was a dangerous activity that had resulted in the deaths of an Israeli father and his infant son last year.

"Rock-throwing, throwing molotov cocktails and other forms of violence is unacceptable, and the security authorities have to bring it to an end when it happens."

Human rights groups are concerned about the long-term impact of detention on Palestinian minors. Some children initially exhibit a degree of bravado, believing it to be a rite of passage, said Horton. "But when you sit with them for an hour or so, under this veneer of bravado are children who are fairly traumatised." Many of them, he said, never want to see another soldier or go near a checkpoint. Does he think the system works as a deterrent? "Yes, I think it does."

According to Nader Abu Amsha, the director of the YMCA in Beit Sahour, near Bethlehem, which runs a rehabilitation programme for juveniles, "families think that when the child is released, it's the end of the problem. We tell them this is the beginning".

Following detention many children exhibit symptoms of trauma: nightmares, mistrust of others, fear of the future, feelings of helplessness and worthlessness, obsessive compulsive behaviour, bedwetting, aggression, withdrawal and lack of motivation.

The Israeli authorities should consider the long-term effects, said Abu Amsha. "They don't give attention to how this might continue the vicious cycle of violence, of how this might increase hatred. These children come out of this process with a lot of anger. Some of them feel the need for revenge.

"You see children who are totally broken. It's painful to see the pain of these children, to see how much they are squeezed by the Israeli system."
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Comments

  • Obviously this it totally abbhorent but it's quite unusual - and in a way I find it really quite pleasing - to see something written like this with no pro-Israel bias,
    of course the whole situation over there is abhorrent and I'd be surprised if there weren't israeli children being treated in the same manner. It has nothing to do with whose "side" you are on, but I think it's reasonable to assume that this behaviour for which there are no words goes on on both sides, as well as many other places where there there is this kind of long term conflict or civil war. As Israel is the situation in which the west has involved itself for so long, it is always going to be the one we hear about
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Lest we forget:

    Gaza Out of the Ruins - Pt.1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhNQjziYE7I

    Gaza Out of the Ruins - Pt.2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAAHOFlU7DI

    Gaza Out of the Ruins - Pt.3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofYmJczYV8w
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    of course the whole situation over there is abhorrent and I'd be surprised if there weren't israeli children being treated in the same manner. It has nothing to do with whose "side" you are on, but I think it's reasonable to assume that this behaviour for which there are no words goes on on both sides

    No, this doesn't go on on both sides.

    There are no Israeli's being held by the Palestinians.
  • How can you possibly know that?

    and if it is so would it be in part due to the disadvantages that the palestinians are at.

    I am pro-palestine but at this point they are not innocent victims
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    How can you possibly know that?

    How can I possibly know that? How can anyone possibly know anything? By checking the facts. It's not difficult. You have a computer in front of you, do you not?

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/prisoners.html
    '0 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 5,300 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.'
    and if it is so would it be in part due to the disadvantages that the palestinians are at.

    I suppose you could say that.
    I am pro-palestine but at this point they are not innocent victims

    At this point they are not innocent victims? So then they are guilty victims? Care to elaborate?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    How can you possibly know that?

    http://imeu.net/news/article0021592.shtml

    General Facts & Figures

    Since Israel began its military occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip following the 1967 War, Israel has imprisoned upwards of 700,000 Palestinians, or about 20% of the population of the occupied territories.

    According to the Israel Prison Service, at the end of August 2011 there were approximately 5200 Palestinians being held in Israeli prisons, including 272 who were being held in administrative detention without charge or trial. According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights the number of Palestinians in Israeli prisons is actually more than 6000.

    Those who are charged are subjected to Israeli military courts that human rights organizations have criticized for failing to meet the minimum standards required for a fair trial.

    According to Amnesty International’s 2011 Annual Report on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories: “Palestinians in the [occupied territories] subject to Israel’s military justice system continued to face a wide range of abuses of their right to a fair trial. They are routinely interrogated without a lawyer and, although they are civilians, are tried before military not ordinary courts.”

    The same Amnesty report states: “Consistent allegations of torture and other ill-treatment, including of children, were frequently reported. Among the most commonly cited methods were beatings, threats to the detainee or their family, sleep deprivation, and being subjected to painful stress positions for long periods. Confessions allegedly obtained under duress were accepted as evidence in Israeli military and civilian courts.”

    2000 Palestinian prisoners recently began a hunger strike to protest the conditions in which they are being held.


    Administrative Detention

    Israel uses a procedure known as administrative detention to imprison Palestinians without charge or trial.

    There are currently about 270 Palestinians being held in administrative detention.

    Although there are none currently being held in administrative detention, Israeli authorities have in the past used the procedure against Palestinian children as well as adults.


    Child Prisoners

    Since September 2000, Israel has arrested and imprisoned more than 7000 Palestinian children.

    Like all Palestinians from the occupied territories, they are subjected to Israeli military tribunals.

    As of August 2011, there were 180 Palestinian minors being held in Israeli prisons. Of those, 34 were between the ages of 12-15.

    Palestinian children are frequently arrested in the middle of the night by Israeli soldiers, taken away without their parents, and roughly interrogated without a guardian or lawyer present.

    According to a recent report by the Israeli NGO No Legal Frontiers, which followed the cases of 71 Palestinian children as they made their way through the Israeli military court system:

    The most common offense was throwing stones and Molotov cocktails. In most cases the object was not actually thrown, did not hit a target, or cause any damage. In no case was serious harm caused.

    In 94% of cases the children were held in pre-trial detention and not released on bail.

    In 100% of cases, the children were convicted of an offense.

    87% of them were subjected to some form of physical violence while in custody.

    Under pressure from human rights organizations and children's rights advocates, the Israeli army recently announced that it would raise the age that Palestinians are treated as adults from 16 to 18 years of age, however, critics complain that they are still subject to the same unjust and abusive treatment accorded Palestinian adults.
  • I don't believe that you can believe every 'fact' reported, maybe I'm too cynical but in a world where so many facts contradict other so called facts without specific expertise on an issue or personal experience, I need more than what is reported and and that something is not happening cannot be proved.

    As to them not being innocent victims, obviously I was referring to palestinians as a whole. This mess has been ongoing for so long. Atrocities of various kinds have been committed by both sides, hence nobody is innocent.
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I don't believe that you can believe every 'fact' reported, maybe I'm too cynical but in a world where so many facts contradict other so called facts without specific expertise on an issue or personal experience, I need more than what is reported and and that something is not happening cannot be proved.

    If you can find one article or report that claims one single Israeli is being held by the Palestinians then please post it.


    As to them not being innocent victims, obviously I was referring to palestinians as a whole. This mess has been ongoing for so long. Atrocities of various kinds have been committed by both sides, hence nobody is innocent.

    So, following this logic, do you support the Israeli occupation, or do you think the Israeli's should abide by international law and withdraw their forces and their illegal settlers to the 1967 borders, or not?
  • The existance of the prisoner exchange suggests that there have at times been Israeli prisoners held. Yes they used to trade thousands for ten and bodies but my point is that I don't know.
    I do know that Palestinian suicide bombers have blown up children in locations with no military target in site - bus stations, markets, wherever else I don't know off the top of my head.
    I do know that there have been numerous reports (which obviously you are very fond of) of Palestians celebrating deaths of Israeli women and children, now that I don't know about but there have been reports.

    As to whether the israelis should clear out to their side of the borders? I have already said that I am pro-palestine. If it's about picking sides then I am on theirs, but to my mind this doesn't excuse all behaviour. I know this isn't everyone's belief but I cannot see any resolution as being possible, certainly not one that benefits palestine while it continues
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I need more than what is reported and and that something is not happening cannot be proved.

    This doesn't really leave you with much room to manoeuvre, does it? If you don't believe anything that's reported, then what do you base your understanding of the World on exactly? The Ten Club reported recently that Pearl Jam will tour Europe this year. Did you dismiss that report because you need more from them than that? :?

    You say that something is not happening can not be proved? Yes it can. It can be proven that the elephant species is not mutating into whales. It can also be proven that the moon isn't turning pink.
    And it can be proven that there are currently no Israeli prisoners in any Palestinian jails.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    The existance of the prisoner exchange suggests that there have at times been Israeli prisoners held.

    The prisoner exchange involved one Israeli prisoner, as I pointed out. Presently there are no Israeli prisoners in any Palestinian jails.

    I do know that there have been numerous reports (which obviously you are very fond of) of Palestinians celebrating deaths of Israeli women and children, now that I don't know about but there have been reports.

    There have been reports of Palestinians celebrating the deaths of Israeli's. And there have also been reports of Israeli's celebrating the deaths of Palestinians. Not just reports, but written statements, and video footage.
    If it's about picking sides then I am on theirs, [the Palestinians] but to my mind this doesn't excuse all behaviour.

    I never said that it did.
  • Okay no need for the ridiculous. Particularly when you realise what I was meaning. What happens in a place such as palestine where the situation is so unstable and unsafe (largely due to Israeli forces). Until recently foreign tourism was restricted to the West Bank. I believe our information on the region is restricted or at the very least is not whole.

    I didn't say I never believe what is reported, and that comment was not insulting to both our intelligence.
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Call me old fashioned, but without facts, what are we left with?



    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact
    fact
       [fakt] Show IPA
    noun
    1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
    2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
    3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
    4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

    Fact

    A fact (derived from the Latin Factum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be shown to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable experiments.

    Fact may also indicate findings derived through a process of evaluation, including review of testimony, direct observation, or otherwise; as distinguishable from matters of inference or speculation.[8] This use is reflected in the terms "fact-find" and "fact-finder" (e.g., "set up a fact-finding commission").[9]

    Facts may be checked by reason, experiment, personal experience, or may be argued from authority. Roger Bacon wrote "If in other sciences we should arrive at certainty without doubt and truth without error, it behooves us to place the foundations of knowledge in mathematics."
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I believe our information on the region is restricted or at the very least is not whole.

    In many instances, yes it is. But there are plenty of observers on the ground, including Israeli human rights organizations - currently under attack by the Israeli Knesset - and witness testimony can also be gathered from aid agencies, U.N observers, and Israeli soldiers themselves, many of whom have chosen to speak out about their actions and what they've seen. There's also video footage available in many instances - many Palestinians have now been given video recorders by human rights organizations and peace groups in order to film settler attacks.
    Also, when a Palestinians home is bulldozed by the Israeli's this has to be recorded. It also has to be recorded whenever a prisoner is taken into custody. These things are recorded and qualify as facts.
  • Just because things have to be recorded doesn't mean that they are.

    I know that what is reported to be happening in Afghanistan is a long way short of what is actually happening and even what western troops are aware of or able to see. Despite what is legally required this leads me to believe the same to be true of Israel/Palestine. Am I sure, no but I would be very surprised if humanitarian groups and the like see everything especially when there are almost certainly things that are actively intended for their eyes.
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Just because things have to be recorded doesn't mean that they are.

    I know that what is reported to be happening in Afghanistan is a long way short of what is actually happening and even what western troops are aware of or able to see. Despite what is legally required this leads me to believe the same to be true of Israel/Palestine. Am I sure, no but I would be very surprised if humanitarian groups and the like see everything especially when there are almost certainly things that are actively intended for their eyes.

    No, they don't see everything. And during it's massacre in Gaza during the Winter of 2008-2009 the Israeli's barred all journalists from entering.

    But I still don't really see where you're coming from here. Are you saying that nothing is true? Are you saying there are no such things as facts? And that nothing is to be believed? I told you there are no Israeli prisoners in Palestinians jails. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

    What are we even debating here? :?
  • we're not, I can accept that, my issue was when you questioned my belief/statement/whatever that nobody was innocent here
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    we're not, I can accept that, my issue was when you questioned my belief/statement/whatever that nobody was innocent here

    The Palestinians are under an illegal military occupation. Guilt or innocence is either here nor there.
  • no see I don't believe that, and that's not something that can be determined through debate I don't think as it is a question of personal ideology
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    no see I don't believe that, and that's not something that can be determined through debate I don't think as it is a question of personal ideology

    So as far as you're concerned the Israeli's and Palestinians are just as bad as each other and therefore we should just let them get on with it? I.e, let the Israeli's continue stealing more land and ethnically cleansing the area, all the while justifying their behaviour by reference to sporadic Palestinian rocket fire?


    Do you think that Palestinian terrorist attacks are the cause of the Israeli occupation and continuing Jewish-only settlement construction, or a symptom of the occupation?

    If you believe that Palestinian terrorist attacks are the cause of the Israeli occupation, then how do you account for the fact that the first terrorist attack inside Israel occurred in 1994, nearly 30 years after the 1967 war and the beginning of the occupation?
  • I think that palestinian attacks may be a result of Israels' illegal occupation but not justified by it, surely you can see the distinction?
    In terms of whether we should intefere/keep our noses out? I find it interesting how when "we" US/Aus/Westerners who think they know best get involved we say what choice do we have, but when we choose not to get involved we say it's not our place etc etc.

    It's all bullshit







    ....and your a twit
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • Why thank you.


    Human Right abuses are just that. Plain and simple. I dont think its a matter of sticking our noses into things or rightousness. Its a matter of recognizing "the why" in roots/common threads of the constant factor of millions defiled people around the world and bringing justice the horrible terrors committed by mankind.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I find it interesting how when "we" US/Aus/Westerners who think they know best get involved we say what choice do we have, but when we choose not to get involved we say it's not our place etc etc.

    I don't think the Western powers have ever asked 'What choice do we have?' with regards the Middle East, and they've also never said that it's not their place either.

    The whole World supports a full Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories, and the U.S has stood alone in the World for the past 40 years in blocking any peaceful settlement.

    Anyway, we're off topic. This thread is about Israel's illegal treatment of Palestinian children in it's jails.

    ....and your a twit


    I am a twit when I'm not being a twat.
  • I agree.

    Atrocities committed against children.

    People send me videos daily of children getting their heads blown off, bodies stoned or smashed and so forth. An ugly truth. Sad thing is "this is" all these children have ever known.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lygCy1AZGQ4
  • Generally, I've heard all sorts from all western countries - would have to rewatch old Q&A to get names and quotes - talk about when and where we interfere.

    I don't believe in death, I guess I'm lucky I've never been in that situation myself so is all just hypothetical but the ends does not justify the means for me, especially if it involves faceless killing. By anyone

    I do find it somewhat odd that we're arguing when we're essentially on the same side though of this specific issue. And we were getting along so well.







    That word is totally offensive, even if I am just pretending to be a chick
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    That word is totally offensive, even if I am just pretending to be a chick

    Really? Are you a bloke? :o
  • so the rumour says....

    of course the only person spreading that rumour is a .... p*** b*********
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    so the rumour says....

    of course the only person spreading that rumour is a .... p*** b*********

    I see :)
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I wonder if this will have any effect? Probably not. I expect the Israeli's will cry anti-Semitism, put their million $$ pr campaign into overdrive, and brush it all under the carpet.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ja ... n-children

    UK raises concerns over Israel's treatment of Palestinian children

    Foreign Office minister says he has raised concerns about treatment of Palestinian children in Israeli detention


    Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
    guardian.co.uk, Monday 23 January 2012



    The British government has raised concerns about Israel's treatment of Palestinian minors arrested and interrogated for stone-throwing and other crimes, highlighted in an article in the Guardian.

    Alistair Burt, the Foreign Office minister for the Middle East, urged Israel to address the UK government's concerns when on a visit to the country a fortnight ago.

    Burt told the Guardian he had "raised concerns about the treatment of Palestinian children in Israeli detention. I urged the Israeli government to address these concerns."

    Burt was also asked in the House of Commons last week about the issue of solitary confinement for Palestinian minors. Labour MP Sandra Osborne called on the government to condemn the practice and demand the release of 106 children detained in the Israeli military prison system.

    In response, Burt referred to an earlier statement in which he said the practice of shackling children was wrong. Minors are routinely shackled throughout court hearings in the Israeli military justice system.

    Osborne told the Guardian Israel's treatment of Palestinian minors was "unjustified in the context of human rights". She had been appalled and distressed on visits to the Israeli military juvenile court at Ofer, near Jerusalem. "No civilised democracy should treat children in that way," she said.

    The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said the state should apply the same protection to Palestinian minors in detention that it allows to Israeli children.

    B'Tselem confirmed that descriptions given to the Guardian by Palestinian juveniles of arrest, detention and interrogation under the military justice system were consistent with testimonies it had collected although mostly with over-18s.

    "We have also seen long periods of solitary confinement in a small cell, with lights on 24 hours a day, with detainees unable to follow time and disconnected to the rest of the world," said B'Tselem spokeswoman Sarit Michaeli. "We have testimonies of detainees cuffed in painful positions while under interrogation and sometimes left for long periods.

    "Throughout the military justice process, the rights of suspects are violated."

    B'Tselem, she said, took issue with the claim by Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev that detainees alleging mistreatment would have complaints dealt with fairly. "This is disingenuous at best," she said.

    A B'Tselem study last year showed that out of more than 700 complaints of abuse by Israeli Security Agency (ISA) interrogators brought between 2001 and 2011, none resulted in a criminal investigation.

    The complaints were examined by an official of the ISA. "It is not surprising that in most cases the inspector determines that the complaint is not true," said B'Tselem.

    In a few cases, the inspector found abuse had taken place but the file was closed without the state attorney's office ordering a criminal investigation. B'Tselem said this "transmits a message to … the potential complainants that the chances of measures being taken against the persons responsible is zero".


    Regev insisted anyone who had a complaint that an Israeli official had acted in an improper fashion should bring the information to the Israeli authorities and civil courts. "It will be thoroughly investigated," he said.

    He added: "Minors deserve special attention, special consideration … The test of a democracy is how you treat people incarcerated, people in jail, and especially so with minors."

    B'Tselem said the provisions of Israeli youth law should formally be applied to Palestinian minors. Night-time arrests in military operations should cease; interrogations should be video-taped; minors should be questioned in the presence of a parent or lawyer; they should have their rights clearly read to them; and proper options for remand should be put in place.

    Unicef, the UN agency for children, also raised concerns following the Guardian's article. Children had the "right to protection against violence and abuse," it said in a statement. Unicef was "monitoring the arrest and detention of children and is currently in dialogue with the Israeli authorities to improve the protection of child detainees … All children, at all times, must be treated with dignity and respect, in accordance with the convention on the rights of the child."

    In the first 11 months of last year, 222 cases of stone-throwers were brought before the military court, according to a letter sent by the Israeli foreign ministry to Lady Scotland, who visited the Ofer court last autumn, and is writing a report on her findings.

    The period from indictment to the conclusion of proceedings had dropped to an average of 92.5 days in 2011 from 167 days in 2007, the letter said.

    It pointed out that "many crimes carried out by minors in [the West Bank] are of a violent ideological nature and pose a clear and imminent threat to the public … Despite the unique dilemmas in the dealing with minor suspects in [the West Bank], Israel makes significant efforts to provide for just and fair treatment throughout the entire military legal process in accordance with international standards."

    Human rights organisations say Israel's treatment of Palestinian minors breaches the international convention on the rights of the child and the fourth Geneva convention.
  • of course they will call in anti-semitism, and further they and their supporters have huge financial advantage over the Palestinians which we all know makes a big difference
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
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