PJ Materialism

PKTrekGirl

So great to read so many posts in this thread - it is encouraging to read that so many others have thought about/are thinking about this issue.

I especially agree with the ideas that the best things in life are not things...and that the wanting of something is often more satisfying than the having of something. So many times in life I have wanted something - something that was expensive that I might have even had to save up for...but when I finally got it, it almost instantly became just another 'thing' I had. Once acquired, the luster was gone. The ''thing' didn't change my life, make me happier or make me a better person. It just sat on a shelf, like things do. Why did I think it would be so cool to have that thing? I have no idea. It's one of life's mysteries, I suppose, that our minds can trick us into believing 'things' will change our circumstances for the better...when really, what needs changing is not the circumstances but our attitudes about those circumstance and/or our willingness to change them in real, meaningful ways - not just by distracting ourselves temporarily with 'stuff'.

Very interesting discussion. And given all the craziness around here lately with the merch, I'm glad people are having it.

mikalina

PJ Materialism or Materialism in general...

I don't think buying up all kinds of merchandise makes you a bigger fan at all. I love PJ's music, its in my heart and yes I do have some merchandise but I don't go over board at all.

I think the older I get the less "things" I want. The most important things are free....

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I just want to clarify something, just for clarity, not to say anyone's said anything like this, but I'm not judging anyone else for what they buy/collect. In the end, if it makes you happy, then that's all that matters.

For some reason I got caught up in the vinyl thing because, as absurd and "fake" as this is going to sound, Pearl Jam fans buy vinyl. I honestly started to think that. How ludicrous. Because Ed likes vinyl, I'm supposed to? Stupid.

People on here genuinely love vinyl, and I get why they do, but I don't. Not for the price, anyway. I don't have the money to spend on a good enough player to justify owning and ruining good vinyl. My player is some shitty little big box store one that cost $80. I have heard a good NEEDLE costs that much.

Tenzing N.

I mostly agree.

I don't understand the backpack or the white vinyl but I've sat for hours looking over my records and old newsletters. I love opening my old CD cases and looking through the liner notes. Same with the Christmas vinyls.

One might call it a problem if you begin to define yourself by what you own. Either as a person or as a fan. I'm on the fence about that but If that's the way you choose to "do it" I don't really see a problem with it.

usamamasan1

I decided to buy bullion for my boys for Xmas instead of toys.

inlet13

If anyone here doesn't think this band has completely and totally sold out at this point, they are clueless. But, regardless, I understand why they did and think it's fine. They deserve to make money off of what they accomplished. I still love their music. I think Eddie Vedder is an incredible lyricist, but I think he wrote himself into a corner. The truth is... he is a huge hypocrite. I love him and them, but they are. They are amazing musicians and I love their music for music... but, I mean, you can't be anti-greed in a lot of your lyrics.... and be selling all this useless shit on your site.... and not be expected to be called out for it. I mean, zombie t-shirts? really? What's next?

Look at Porch right now... there's a thread on Pearl Jam toe nail clippers. It's tongue in cheek, but it's kinda pointing at an issue that's completely evident.... this thread is also hinting at it.

I can't wait to hear the typical kool-aid responses. But, just be intellectually honest for once before you respond. This isn't political. I love Pearl Jam just as much as you. But, these guys are selling out in front of us and have been since they left Sony. If I were them, I would too.... but, I probably wouldn't have based half my career saying selling out was wrong.

This is the same band that cursed out Adam Duritz for his band being in a Coke commercial. Ironic now.. they sell their music through Target. Come on, PJ...

Regardless, I give thanks for your existence...

usamamasan1

I don't think they are selling out. I think they are business peeps. Instead of playing roulette, they chose the bond route. Slow and steady. Now they get to clip those coupons. It was an investment and it's paying off handsomely.
Good on 'em

It's the fans who are being duped who are still back in the 90's with their mindset.

You gotta pay if you want to play!

brianlux

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I just want to clarify something, just for clarity, not to say anyone's said anything like this, but I'm not judging anyone else for what they buy/collect. In the end, if it makes you happy, then that's all that matters.

For some reason I got caught up in the vinyl thing because, as absurd and "fake" as this is going to sound, Pearl Jam fans buy vinyl. I honestly started to think that. How ludicrous. Because Ed likes vinyl, I'm supposed to? Stupid.

People on here genuinely love vinyl, and I get why they do, but I don't. Not for the price, anyway. I don't have the money to spend on a good enough player to justify owning and ruining good vinyl. My player is some shitty little big box store one that cost $80. I have heard a good NEEDLE costs that much.

It's true! The amount of money one can spend on a turn table is absurd. I've seen ads for turntables matched with high end cartridges that combined can go for as high as $60,000 ... I'm not kidding!

I love vinyl because CDs sound harsh to my nerve damaged ears thus vinyl is more warm and friendly to me. But the price of new vinyl is too high and I totally agree that collecting it just for the sake of collecting is...well, just collecting... a kind of strange consumer obsession in my opinion. I'll either do without or wait until I find a reasonable used copy.

In any case, great thread, Hugh, thanks!

brianlux

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

brianlux wrote:

A wise man once said:

... finest worksong...

Stipe/REM---GREAT song!!

chadwick

inlet13 wrote:

If anyone here doesn't think this band has completely and totally sold out at this point, they are clueless. But, regardless, I understand why they did and think it's fine. They deserve to make money off of what they accomplished. I still love their music. I think Eddie Vedder is an incredible lyricist, but I think he wrote himself into a corner. The truth is... he is a huge hypocrite. I love him and them, but they are. They are amazing musicians and I love their music for music... but, I mean, you can't be anti-greed in a lot of your lyrics.... and be selling all this useless shit on your site.... and not be expected to be called out for it. I mean, zombie t-shirts? really? What's next?

Look at Porch right now... there's a thread on Pearl Jam toe nail clippers. It's tongue in cheek, but it's kinda pointing at an issue that's completely evident.... this thread is also hinting at it.

I can't wait to hear the typical kool-aid responses. But, just be intellectually honest for once before you respond. This isn't political. I love Pearl Jam just as much as you. But, these guys are selling out in front of us and have been since they left Sony. If I were them, I would too.... but, I probably wouldn't have based half my career saying selling out was wrong.

This is the same band that cursed out Adam Duritz for his band being in a Coke commercial. Ironic now.. they sell their music through Target. Come on, PJ...

Regardless, I give thanks for your existence...

so when target sells a band's music that band becomes a sell-out? if a band has toenail clippers or bunk ass zombie shirts, this group is a sell-out?

i don't like sell-outs either but i don't believe pearl jam are sell-outs. you can be a multi-millionaire musician and not be a sell-out. ed can drive a beater or a luxury car and still not be a sell-out can he not?

selling posters and zippos doesn't make ya a sell-out does it?

what makes a band labeled as sell-outs?

brianlux

One of my favorite sell out bands:

inlet13

chadwick wrote:

so when target sells a band's music that band becomes a sell-out?

Nope. Instead, when a band sells their music almost exclusively through a major corporate retailer, like Target, this would help lend support to anyone who says they've sold out. Plus, when they have commercials with the target logo, it seems quite sell-out'ish.

chadwick wrote:

if a band has toenail clippers or bunk ass zombie shirts, this group is a sell-out?

Umm... well, I'd argue this lends more credence towards those who argue the band has sold out. So, yes, they may be.

chadwick wrote:

i don't like sell-outs either but i don't believe pearl jam are sell-outs.

That's awesome... good for you. I do believe their sell outs. This lead singer was ridiculously anti-corporation. He wanted no part of allowing them to control his destiny. That was great... I mean, they even took on Ticket Master... Listen to Vitalogy. But, that was then... now, he's sporting spots for his album through a major corporate retailer, the Ten Club charges for everything they can. The band is now selling anything they can to make bank. I do believe they are sell outs... the irony is I don't care. I think they are great musicians that deserve the money they are making.

chadwick wrote:

you can be a multi-millionaire musician and not be a sell-out.

Agreed... Pearl Jam and Ed, in particular, WERE multi-millionaire musicians that WERE not sell-outs. Key words "WERE". They aren't any more. They haven't been for a number of years now.

chadwick wrote:

ed can drive a beater or a luxury car and still not be a sell-out can he not? selling posters and zippos doesn't make ya a sell-out does it? what makes a band labeled as sell-outs?

I think what makes a band a more recognizable sell-out is when they say they hate something then they do it. To quote Not For You... "if you hate something, don't you do it too". This band was completely anti what they are doing now. If Ed saw another musician do this sort of thing 15 years ago, he would have called them out... which is exactly what he did to Adam Duritz for allowing his music to be in a Coke commercial. Once again, that's quite ironic now.... considering how many TV shows and whatnot have I heard their music in lately?

They sold out long ago, this is old news.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

inlet13 wrote:

That's awesome... good for you. I do believe their sell outs. This lead singer was ridiculously anti-corporation. He wanted no part of allowing them to control his destiny. That was great... I mean, they even took on Ticket Master... Listen to Vitalogy. But, that was then... now, he's sporting spots for his album through a major corporate retailer, the Ten Club charges for everything they can. The band is now selling anything they can to make bank. I do believe they are sell outs... the irony is I don't care. I think they are great musicians that deserve the money they are making.

you alluded to this thread pointing to the fact that pearl jam are sell outs. Did you read my first post? All I said was I don't need all the stuff I have. Do you own everything from every band you like? No, they put out stuff that some people will like and other things that other people will like. Some fans, like fans of this band, seem to want everything they put out, and that's fine. that's their perogitive. when they don't sell enough merch, the board becomes a riot, when they sell too much, the board again, becomes a riot. they can't win.

and my main point was at the end, that I shouldn't have as much as I do based on my income level. it's a personal choice, not a societal statement on consumerism.

I was ranting not at the band or anyone else, but at myself. I felt like a fraud for buying stuff just because Ed would approve. Like he gives a fuck if I own vinyl or not. And like it should matter if he does.

All I was saying is that if you enjoy what you collect, more power to you. I don't, so there's no point in me keeping it.

Now, onto your second point about the band selling out. Yes, Ed was anti-corporation. He still is. But at some point you have to realize that in order to say "fuck you" to the giant retailer, you may have to partner with another retailer. They had two choices:

1) sign another record deal and be slaves to another label or
2) sign a DISTRIBUTION deal that allows the band to keep contol over their product and make more money at it.

so they are now fine with promoting their own product. It's not kool aid. It just makes sense if you want your music to be heard. Most people who liked Ten don't even know they still exist.

why is it that any time someone defends the band or the ten club all of a sudden they are "drinking the kool aid"? like the anti-position is the only one that makes sense?

ludicrous.

brianlux

The question about bands selling out (which wasn't Hugh's point in the first place, but since we've gone there...) has come up on other band boards. It could be argued that bands that play for charity only or barter- say, we'll play you feed us or give us beers or whatever- are the only bands that haven't "sold out". There's a blue grass band in our area that plays at the local Farmer's market for free. They would fit that category I suppose. Under this definition, as soon as a band sells one tape, cd, lp, MP3 download etc, they've "sold out". True, that's taking the argument to the extreme, but who's to say what it mean's to "sell out"? Maybe it's all relative to your point of view. To me, Pearl Jam has done more good than most bands and their music is some of my favorite. I don't think we should expect any more of them- just be thankful they're still doing it!

As an aside, I was looking at PJ vinyl on Ebay this morning, just out of curiosity. Damn, there must be a lot of PJ fans who have a LOT of discretionary income or are even more hooked on vinyl than I am!

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I think the whole idea of a band selling it doesn't really exist. I mean, like you said Brian, once you take the first paycheque from ANYONE in ANY FORM, you have sold out.

My band put out a 4 song EP, but imploded before we even played our first show. I put out the cd on my own dime and lost money on it, and gave all sales to charity. Not much, but I wanted something good to come out of a horrible experience.

But, if someone had asked us if we wanted a million dollars to put our song in an ad, I wouldn't fucking hesitate.

I don't care if the band is established or not. Look at U2. Do I like their music? Not really. But the amount of money they make is staggering. But the money they give away is even more staggering. So the more Blackberry ads they do the more people in Africa they help.

And even if they just took the cheque, who cares? Isn't the main point just getting your music heard, no matter if it's a super bowl commercial or a town fair in the mid afternoon?

do you think any actor dreams of winning an oscar? I doubt it. they dream of being seen on a stage or a big screen. but if win an award for their craft, does that make them a sellout? Nope.

inlet13

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Now, onto your second point about the band selling out. Yes, Ed was anti-corporation. He still is. But at some point you have to realize that in order to say "fuck you" to the giant retailer, you may have to partner with another retailer. They had two choices:

1) sign another record deal and be slaves to another label or
2) sign a DISTRIBUTION deal that allows the band to keep contol over their product and make more money at it.

Or option 3... they could have started their own label, sold thier through a multitude of retailers and maybe not sold quite as much. Or option 4... they could have sold their album digitally and physically through their own website only. I'm sure there's a few more options too. The truth is they wanted to make money, and they didn't like that with option #1, some of the money went to a record company. I understand that, but they weren't in this or making this decision for anything other than....


... money. It's greed. Which, once again, is fine. Most of us would do the same. They wanted their money. And in my opinion, they were entitled to it. But, I am also entitled to say they are hypocrites of what they once were and stood for.

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

so they are now fine with promoting their own product. It's not kool aid. It just makes sense if you want your music to be heard. Most people who liked Ten don't even know they still exist.

why is it that any time someone defends the band or the ten club all of a sudden they are "drinking the kool aid"? like the anti-position is the only one that makes sense?

ludicrous.

Pearl Jam is a huge band. They would have had their music heard if they wanted it heard. They did not have to go through TicketMaster to do that. The Ten Club didn't have to start charging people to post here. The story goes on and on... They wanted money.... and yes, in my opinion, it is kool-aid because there's a huge section of people here, especially on MT, that are anti-corporation... they are all about doing things the small way (which is fine with me, if they are consistent)... these folks aren't consistent when it comes to the reason we are all on this message board = Pearl Jam. That rock band is violating that concept that some here repeat over, and over day after day... yet, these same people can't even see there's at the very least a touch of hypocritical behavior here with their favorite band.Saying you don't agree with everything your favorite band does, does not mean you have to dislike their music... It's a natural thing within a relationship. I'm calling Pearl Jam out. I think their music is still great and I never 100% agreed with their politics, but I always had a deep respect for a band that followed through with that. I personally lost a bit of respect for the band over the past 5 years or so due to the whole Ticket Master, Ten Club, selling everything they possibly can type stuff....

inlet13

brianlux wrote:

It could be argued that bands that play for charity only or barter- say, we'll play you feed us or give us beers or whatever- are the only bands that haven't "sold out".

I disagree.

I think a band that basically said a big F you to:

1) MTV
2) Ticket Master
3) even the Grammys...
4) and more...

...and the band that has repetitively been against corporate growth is being slightly hypocritical to what they "said they were". This is the same band that wrote Not For You, Corduroy and Blood. Have you listened to those songs lately?

That young guy who wrote those lyrics would laugh at what this band has become. He, in my opinion, would be first to say they sold out. Kurt Cobain would prolly say that too. The irony, to me, is... Kurt Cobain would have done the same had he stayed alive.

They were young and ideological. They were innocent. Yet, I really respected the integrity Ed, for instance, had. He actually did what he said he would in the beginning. They stayed away from MTV, they didn't sell out for forever it seemed.

To me, this band sold out with the record Pearl Jam and that worsened with Backspacer. Ironically, to me, these two CDs were better than the two previous, so the music wasn't effected negatively. It was simply the management.

Pearl Jam is a corporation of sorts now. They are what they once hated. All I am doing is pointing it out and saying I don't care... but, I don't see how some of you anti-corportists are ok with it.

pjl44

inlet13 wrote:

brianlux wrote:

It could be argued that bands that play for charity only or barter- say, we'll play you feed us or give us beers or whatever- are the only bands that haven't "sold out".

...and the band that has repetitively been against corporate growth is being slightly hypocritical to what they "said they were". This is the same band that wrote Not For You, Corduroy and Blood. Have you listened to those songs lately?

That young guy who wrote those lyrics would laugh at what this band has become. He, in my opinion, would be first to say they sold out. Kurt Cobain would prolly say that too. The irony, to me, is... Kurt Cobain would have done the same had he stayed alive.

They were young and ideological. They were innocent. Yet, I really respected the integrity Ed, for instance, had. He actually did what he said he would in the beginning. They stayed away from MTV, they didn't sell out for forever it seemed.


Pearl Jam is a corporation of sorts now. They are what they once hated. All I am doing is pointing it out and saying I don't care... but, I don't see how some of you anti-corportists are ok with it.

You didn't know any of the band then and you don't know any of them now. They're not your friends. You're projecting. If the music's good, listen to it. If the shows are great, go. If you want a t-shirt, buy it. But holy hell can we stop judging the personalities and intentions of people we've never met.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

inlet13 wrote:

Or option 3... they could have started their own label, sold thier through a multitude of retailers and maybe not sold quite as much. Or option 4... they could have sold their album digitally and physically through their own website only. I'm sure there's a few more options too. The truth is they wanted to make money, and they didn't like that with option #1, some of the money went to a record company. I understand that, but they weren't in this or making this decision for anything other than....


... money. It's greed. Which, once again, is fine. Most of us would do the same. They wanted their money. And in my opinion, they were entitled to it. But, I am also entitled to say they are hypocrites of what they once were and stood for.

Pearl Jam is a huge band. They would have had their music heard if they wanted it heard. They did not have to go through TicketMaster to do that. The Ten Club didn't have to start charging people to post here. The story goes on and on... They wanted money.... and yes, in my opinion, it is kool-aid because there's a huge section of people here, especially on MT, that are anti-corporation... they are all about doing things the small way (which is fine with me, if they are consistent)... these folks aren't consistent when it comes to the reason we are all on this message board = Pearl Jam. That rock band is violating that concept that some here repeat over, and over day after day... yet, these same people can't even see there's at the very least a touch of hypocritical behavior here with their favorite band.Saying you don't agree with everything your favorite band does, does not mean you have to dislike their music... It's a natural thing within a relationship. I'm calling Pearl Jam out. I think their music is still great and I never 100% agreed with their politics, but I always had a deep respect for a band that followed through with that. I personally lost a bit of respect for the band over the past 5 years or so due to the whole Ticket Master, Ten Club, selling everything they possibly can type stuff....

ok then, since I'm drinking their kool aid, I guess I'll just say from now on anytime someone hates on them that they're drinking kurt cobain or courtney love's kool aid. that makes about as much fucking sense.

Have your views on the world stayed 100% the same from when you were 25 to when you were 50? I don't know how old you are, but if you don't mature and grow and change, then you haven't really lived. You can't compare how they distribute their music now; the industry is completely different now. If they were doing this in the 90's, then fine, I guess you coulc call them hypocrites if you want to, but now? Start their own label?

I'm not going to sit here and claim, as you seem to be doing, that I know what their motivations are for their business decisions. But do you know how much work it is to start your own label? It's a 24/7 job. These guys have families. They wanted to get a deal with a major distributor who they felt they could deal with and still sleep at night instead of working through it.

Selling everything they possibly can? Are you nuts? This band has probably one of the smallest amount of merch of any major band going right now. They have a few shirts, the shoes they were selling were going to charity, some vinyl that their fans demand, and stickers. Yeah, they've turned into Kiss all of a sudden.

Maybe we should start a new thread, as this is actually, I now realize, completely off topic.

Byrnzie

inlet13 wrote:

they could have started their own label

They did.

Monkeywrench records.