UN Helping US Budget

EdsonNascimento

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

referring to the bolded part, this is your opinion. and, why should we steal that land that has been dedicated for the purpose of housing the UN? you don't care for the UN, so what? the rest of the world does.

so you are angry because people criticize your country while having it's representatives here?? diplomacy is tough. you have to be willing to hear things you don't want to hear. if america actually was the beacon of freedom and civility and justice world wide that it claims to be then there would be no criticism. if america would get on board with the rest of the world in the quest for peace and humanity, and a just peace for the israelis and palestinians there would be no criticism. if we maintain the same policies towards palestine we will always be criticized. unfortunately it seems that the only thing the american government understands well is the use of military force...

Yep. We are wrong, and "everyone else" is right. So funny. Then folks should stop immigrating here, and start immigrating to Palestine instead.

I am FOR a Palestine State. In Jordan or Iran, or Iraq, or anywhere else that has supported their cause. Why do they need to take land from an already tiny nation? Why not take it from their allies that have land to spare? Would they agree to fully disarm if granted Statehood in what is Israel?

I bet you really think Israel is unprovoked in most of what they are doing (this is not absolving them of any wrong doing. But, if you were constantly under attack as they are you would protect yourself beyond your borders, as well). Much as you think US's might does not make right, the Middle East's on going war against Israel does not make it right.

We should continue to stand up with our ally regardless of other's weakening resolve.

polaris_x

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Yep. We are wrong, and "everyone else" is right. So funny. Then folks should stop immigrating here, and start immigrating to Palestine instead.

I am FOR a Palestine State. In Jordan or Iran, or Iraq, or anywhere else that has supported their cause. Why do they need to take land from an already tiny nation? Why not take it from their allies that have land to spare? Would they agree to fully disarm if granted Statehood in what is Israel?

I bet you really think Israel is unprovoked in most of what they are doing (this is not absolving them of any wrong doing. But, if you were constantly under attack as they are you would protect yourself beyond your borders, as well). Much as you think US's might does not make right, the Middle East's on going war against Israel does not make it right.

We should continue to stand up with our ally regardless of other's weakening resolve.

dude ... you need to read up on this issue ... your comments make no sense ... it sounds like you are regurgitating standard right wing talking points ...

EdsonNascimento

polaris_x wrote:

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Yep. We are wrong, and "everyone else" is right. So funny. Then folks should stop immigrating here, and start immigrating to Palestine instead.

I am FOR a Palestine State. In Jordan or Iran, or Iraq, or anywhere else that has supported their cause. Why do they need to take land from an already tiny nation? Why not take it from their allies that have land to spare? Would they agree to fully disarm if granted Statehood in what is Israel?

I bet you really think Israel is unprovoked in most of what they are doing (this is not absolving them of any wrong doing. But, if you were constantly under attack as they are you would protect yourself beyond your borders, as well). Much as you think US's might does not make right, the Middle East's on going war against Israel does not make it right.

We should continue to stand up with our ally regardless of other's weakening resolve.

dude ... you need to read up on this issue ... your comments make no sense ... it sounds like you are regurgitating standard right wing talking points ...

I am well acquainted with the issues. Nothing's that simple. Perhaps, you should broaden your reading material, as well (which is a cop out response for both of us).

Cosmo

EdsonNascimento wrote:

UNESCO votes to let Palestine in invoking LAW (yes, it's a law) that prevents the US from funding any part of UN that puts Palestine in. So, there's $60 million we just saved. Cool. Now if we could just get them to move the UN out of Manhattan to another country, we'd be all set....

BTW, side note on this: A bit of a commentary on diplomatic prowess of the current administration. France voted against our wishes and Britain abstained. We couldn't even get Britain to vote with us. This after we implored our allies to vote it down in accordance with past peace accords.

Agree or disagree with the fact that Palestine should be allowed in. But, we just saved $60 million. Here's to hoping the useless UN votes them into everything else. There's another billion in spending just sitting waiting not to be spent on this worthless organization. Perhaps we could start to collect on all those unpaid parking tickets. Solve the NYC budget while we're at it.

...
How did we save $60 million... if we were never going to spend $60 million on letting Palestine in?
...
Also, doesn't France and England have their own free will to vote the way THEY want to vote? Or are we there to strong arm them into voting the way WE want them to vote?

polaris_x

EdsonNascimento wrote:

I am well acquainted with the issues. Nothing's that simple. Perhaps, you should broaden your reading material, as well (which is a cop out response for both of us).

i've read from both sides ... there are israelis on this board who believe in a 2-state solution ... not only are you going against world opinion on this matter ... you are against a predominant israeli viewpoint ... only the hardliners (unfortunately, they have the power) are not interested in a 2-state solution ...

edit: fixing quote

Jason P

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i can only imagine how the rest of the countries that voted for this view the united states today..

Probably the same way they viewed us yesterday.

The US should just back away from the whole deal. Our last representative before the UN vote should be Big John McCarthy so he can yell, "Let's get it on!" before declining to vote. Then we can just sit back with some popcorn and wait for the fireworks to start.

Monster Rain

We weren't paying for them to get in, there is a law that prohibits the government from funding any portion of the UN that allows Palestine to become a full member. We were paying $60 million to a particular cultural agency within the UN that voted to grant Palestine full membership. Since that happened, we are no longer going to make that payment. That is where the $60 million was saved.

Cosmo wrote:

EdsonNascimento wrote:

UNESCO votes to let Palestine in invoking LAW (yes, it's a law) that prevents the US from funding any part of UN that puts Palestine in. So, there's $60 million we just saved. Cool. Now if we could just get them to move the UN out of Manhattan to another country, we'd be all set....

BTW, side note on this: A bit of a commentary on diplomatic prowess of the current administration. France voted against our wishes and Britain abstained. We couldn't even get Britain to vote with us. This after we implored our allies to vote it down in accordance with past peace accords.

Agree or disagree with the fact that Palestine should be allowed in. But, we just saved $60 million. Here's to hoping the useless UN votes them into everything else. There's another billion in spending just sitting waiting not to be spent on this worthless organization. Perhaps we could start to collect on all those unpaid parking tickets. Solve the NYC budget while we're at it.

...
How did we save $60 million... if we were never going to spend $60 million on letting Palestine in?
...
Also, doesn't France and England have their own free will to vote the way THEY want to vote? Or are we there to strong arm them into voting the way WE want them to vote?

gimmesometruth27

EdsonNascimento wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

referring to the bolded part, this is your opinion. and, why should we steal that land that has been dedicated for the purpose of housing the UN? you don't care for the UN, so what? the rest of the world does.

so you are angry because people criticize your country while having it's representatives here?? diplomacy is tough. you have to be willing to hear things you don't want to hear. if america actually was the beacon of freedom and civility and justice world wide that it claims to be then there would be no criticism. if america would get on board with the rest of the world in the quest for peace and humanity, and a just peace for the israelis and palestinians there would be no criticism. if we maintain the same policies towards palestine we will always be criticized. unfortunately it seems that the only thing the american government understands well is the use of military force...

Yep. We are wrong, and "everyone else" is right. So funny. Then folks should stop immigrating here, and start immigrating to Palestine instead.

I am FOR a Palestine State. In Jordan or Iran, or Iraq, or anywhere else that has supported their cause. Why do they need to take land from an already tiny nation? Why not take it from their allies that have land to spare? Would they agree to fully disarm if granted Statehood in what is Israel?

I bet you really think Israel is unprovoked in most of what they are doing (this is not absolving them of any wrong doing. But, if you were constantly under attack as they are you would protect yourself beyond your borders, as well). Much as you think US's might does not make right, the Middle East's on going war against Israel does not make it right.

We should continue to stand up with our ally regardless of other's weakening resolve.

israel has the largest and most powerful military in the region. they can more than handle themselves. they do not need support from us. if you want to save money and resources, why would you not support the us ending it's $4 billion a year in military aid to israel every year?

do you know how israel was founded after WWII?

why would we move a potential palestinian state into iran or iraq?? the palestinian state has to be where it is proposed now. the land that israel is claiming is on palestinian land. the international community agrees on the pre-1967 borders and israel keeps building settlements on stolen land. sone places have apartheid conditions. we should not stand by such an ally as long as they keep doing what they are doing. we were against the aparthied in south africa, so why aren't we against it now in the israel/palestine conflict??

EdsonNascimento

Cosmo wrote:

...
How did we save $60 million... if we were never going to spend $60 million on letting Palestine in?
...
Also, doesn't France and England have their own free will to vote the way THEY want to vote? Or are we there to strong arm them into voting the way WE want them to vote?

We have a $80 million/year "donation" (or whatever you want to call it) to UNESCO. $60 million payment was due next month. Congress passed a law in 1990 that says if Palestine is admitted to any UN functions US will withdraw its funding from that function.

The law was not directed at UNESCO specifically because the US had a long gap in participation in UNESCO until about 2002 or so (can't remember the exact year or amount of absence, but it was something like 19 years). But, it was clearly directed at any movement on Palestine without the US' approval.

We can argue the correctness of any of this. But, that is how we just saved $60 million (THIS YEAR - it will be $80 million per year each year this continues, so in reality we could be saving that drop in the bucket for a longer period of time).

gimmesometruth27

saving $60 million is a drop in the bucket compared to the approximately $4000 million we give to israel each year.

in either case we are talking about astronomical amounts of money here...

gimmesometruth27

and the us wonders why the rest of the world is angry when we constantly allow this to happen....

Israel to speed up settlement building in West Bank

Netanyahu calls for the construction of some 2,000 new units

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45121844/ns ... _n_africa/

this is happening as a result of the palestinian efforts to get recognition from the un. israel will not negotiate with them so no peace deal can be made....palestine goes to the un to ask for something us brokered peace talks have never been able to accomplish....then israel punishes palestine by building more settlements at a faster rate on palestinian land...

the cycle continues...

israel is inflaming tensions by continuing to build, then complaining to the us that the rest of the world is condemning them.

it is very easy. if you do not want to be criticized, stop doing shit that warrants such criticism...

EdsonNascimento

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

israel has the largest and most powerful military in the region. they can more than handle themselves. they do not need support from us. if you want to save money and resources, why would you not support the us ending it's $4 billion a year in military aid to israel every year?

do you know how israel was founded after WWII?

why would we move a potential palestinian state into iran or iraq?? the palestinian state has to be where it is proposed now. the land that israel is claiming is on palestinian land. the international community agrees on the pre-1967 borders and israel keeps building settlements on stolen land. sone places have apartheid conditions. we should not stand by such an ally as long as they keep doing what they are doing. we were against the aparthied in south africa, so why aren't we against it now in the israel/palestine conflict??

Well, I'm sure that $4 billion is helping with their poweful military (which I agree - other than size, I wouldn't want the US to mess with them). But, I have no problem reviewing what the money is used for to determine if that size support is necessary. (Just like every item from welfare to military should be reviewed and not simply looked at from where we are today, but what we really need).

And, yes Iran and Iraq are silly. But, there are other bordering nations. Why was that piece of land chosen? If the rest of the world determined that Iraq should have West Virginia, should we allow that? Why should Israel? It's the same exact thing. Just because it's convenient for everyone does not make it right.

And the concept of stolen land is yours. Again, just because a lot of folks believe that does not make it right.

And, I do agree that apartheid is wrong. As does the US. But why it was going on in South Africa is a completely different reason why it is happening there. In S. Africa it was pure racism. In Israel it is partially that (truth be told), but mostly safety reasons. And reason and intent are important. So, yes, we should councel Israel on it. But, we also have to look at the big picture.

EdsonNascimento

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

and the us wonders why the rest of the world is angry when we constantly allow this to happen....

Israel to speed up settlement building in West Bank

Netanyahu calls for the construction of some 2,000 new units

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45121844/ns ... _n_africa/

this is happening as a result of the palestinian efforts to get recognition from the un. israel will not negotiate with them so no peace deal can be made....palestine goes to the un to ask for something us brokered peace talks have never been able to accomplish....then israel punishes palestine by building more settlements at a faster rate on palestinian land...

the cycle continues...

israel is inflaming tensions by continuing to build, then complaining to the us that the rest of the world is condemning them.

it is very easy. if you do not want to be criticized, stop doing shit that warrants such criticism...

I love your slant that this is one sided. Palestine circumvents the peace process, but it's all Israel's fault. Too funny. Good for Israel. They have tried to negotiate. Just because they won't negotiate on Palestine's terms, does not mean they are not willing to negotiate. This is all a two way street. And, in this case I see Palestine as the main instigator.

EdsonNascimento

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

israel is inflaming tensions by continuing to build, then complaining to the us that the rest of the world is condemning them.

Israel complains to nobody. They do what they feel they need to do to protect their rights, land and people. If the Middle East would stop trying to hammer them and act more civily, perhaps they would return that in spades. I have every trust that Israel would be a willing partner in a civil discussion. Palestine and their allies have no interest in having Israel on the map let alone at a negotiation table.

polaris_x

yeah ... your opinion is based on objective reading on both sides ... :roll:

Cosmo

Monster Rain wrote:

We weren't paying for them to get in, there is a law that prohibits the government from funding any portion of the UN that allows Palestine to become a full member. We were paying $60 million to a particular cultural agency within the UN that voted to grant Palestine full membership. Since that happened, we are no longer going to make that payment. That is where the $60 million was saved.

...
Thanx for the clarification.
So, basically, it was a donation... that we can no longer give... because a law... that we drafted. Gotcha.
...
It'd be like if I stopped my annual donation the the CCFA Team Challenge because Creed got back together and entered a team. One has nothing to do with the other... and I really like giving to the CCFA... but, I really don't care to hear new Creed songs on the radio everyday... therefore, I end my donation.
Okay... makes sense. I guess.

gimmesometruth27

polaris_x wrote:

yeah ... your opinion is based on objective reading on both sides ... :roll:

yeah that was what i was going to type.

polaris_x

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

yeah ... your opinion is based on objective reading on both sides ... :roll:

yeah that was what i was going to type.

i mean ... he types things that even pro-israeli folks don't type ... it's like it's right out of some right wing blog or something ...

anyone who think israel has suffered greatly this past decade is clearly not looking at the facts at all ...

EdsonNascimento

polaris_x wrote:

yeah ... your opinion is based on objective reading on both sides ... :roll:

Well, we're both objective to our own opinions. Like I said - this constant - you should read more - response on here is not only unproductive, it's a bit insulting.

And if you get right down to it - none of us are purely objective. Anything we read is through the glasses of what we believe. We try to be as open minded as possible, but we all have to admit to seeing things the way we want to see them. That's why it's unhelpful to give slanted - it's all Israel's fault - opinions when copying an article. It's so clear that that's not the case that it all becomes laughable. Palestine can blatantly go against peace accords they've signed, and it's ok. But, it's not ok if Israel "rataliates."

EdsonNascimento

polaris_x wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

yeah ... your opinion is based on objective reading on both sides ... :roll:

yeah that was what i was going to type.

i mean ... he types things that even pro-israeli folks don't type ... it's like it's right out of some right wing blog or something ...

anyone who think israel has suffered greatly this past decade is clearly not looking at the facts at all ...

Who said Israel has suffered? They have spent the last decade ensuring that they don't. Unlike many folks, they don't need to be told twice. They understand what folks are trying to do before they do it. It's like you saying you shouldn't wear a condom until AFTER your girlfriend gets pregnant. How many times does she have to get pregnant before you say - well, once she does such and such, maybe I should put a hat on.