Flipping v Buying to trade

Mikee J

I have read the rules.. I am anti flipping.

I am also a bit peeved that people buy something, that is limited with the sole purpose of trading it.. it just deprives people of a product they may really want.

There is little room for ethical manoeveures in a set of rules.. however there is plenty of room for it in the way we go about things.... we can decide that this is as bad as flipping, not because of the profit element but because of that fact that someone else is being deprived of something you clearly don't want.

Just my thoughts..

SVRDhand13

I think many people are confused about this because 10C does not seem to have a solid stance on the issue. I thought no flipping was allowed at all until the Lost Dogs area of this forum was created. Seems like the general feeling is it is not flipping if you had the product for a while or bought the item without the intent to resell it. But how long is long enough and how do we know a buyer's intention?

FrankBauer

It's all based on buyer's intention. and since we can never know what that is, we are stuck with the status quo.

10c will continue to regulate recent sales like they have been doing. some people will be upset. others will flip.

the lynch mob here in the forums will regulate and berate members trying to sell stuff based on whats deemed acceptable in their eyes. the absurdity comes in because there is no standard. most seem to think of a "grace period" that is acceptable before you resell or trade, but no one defines it. so its based on popularity and reputation - its acceptable for some members to sell and others will be hung by the rafters. whats even more ridiculous is the few members that are praised for selling a recent item below market value, even though its still above face.

so because of differing opinions, no standard will be deemed acceptable. 10c won't define the standard, bc in a way, they will be officially condoning flipping. so we are stuck with the status quo.

Mikee J

Interesting replies.. I think the time scale issue is a sticking point, however buying a PJ White Vinyl on Thursday and putting it up for trade on Friday is pretty obvious in its intentions.

I am not sure there can be a definition and the issue of who does it is an obvious one. We can only self regulate and I for one think its wrong to trade an item (especially a limited one) the day after it sells out and there are clearly a lot of people who would like it for reasons other than gaining a different item you may not have. I believe this to be akin to flipping, without the obvious financial gain element.

I'd also like to add that this issue forced me to look on a certain auction website to see if there was any being flipped.. which if course exacerbates the whole issue (flippers exist because people buy the goods). I realised this as I was doing it and stopped looking, then got annoyed about it.

So, in a nutshell, buying with the sole intent to trade is akin to flipping and reinforces the flipping issue because it forces people who missed out on a buy to go to auction websites.

PJ-Cubs

To me, buying limited edition merch from the 10C with the sole intention to trade it for something more valuable is ALMOST the same as flipping.

I have seen people offering to trade limited edition items just hours after pressing the buy button. They obviously had no intent of ever keeping the item that they purchased and were just using it as trade bait. Plus, they cost another 10C member the chance to get the item.

I have no issue with people buying items, receiving them from 10C, deciding that they don't like or want the item and then trading it.

F5AgainstOne

My opinion is this...

I was deprived of pj20 posters because flippers were aloud to buy multiples.

I was able to get a Backspacer white vinyl. I'd keep it, but if some one wants to trade PJ20 posters for it, I'm not going to feel bad about it. It just means 2 fans are willing to trade for something they'd rather have, 2 fans are happy. Is'nt that a good thing?

I'm not profitting by trading. Sure, someone else didn't get a white vinyl, but... I didn't get posters.
If I didn't get the white vinyl, then I'd be the one that didn't get something.

Where is the line? Should I refrain from buying concert tix just to make sure all the people who are bigger fans than me get them first?
Someone is always going to get left out.

If i bought the white vinyl with the intention to sell it for profit, I would be wrong.


And

CranMalReign

10c already supports flipping. It's one of the main reasons (the only reason??) they gave for not having presales for PJ20 posters. It would hurt the secondary market.

*yawn*

PJ-Cubs

F5AgainstOne wrote:

My opinion is this...


Someone is always going to get left out.

And

That's why 10c needs to make more of this stuff.

Carey

SVRDhand13 wrote:

I think many people are confused about this because 10C does not seem to have a solid stance on the issue. I thought no flipping was allowed at all until the Lost Dogs area of this forum was created. Seems like the general feeling is it is not flipping if you had the product for a while or bought the item without the intent to resell it. But how long is long enough and how do we know a buyer's intention?

I was just wondering about this same concept. For example, I was able to buy a copy of Backspacer white vinyl and I intend to hang on to it! But, I am also the single mom of a 2 and 4 year old, and I can't exactly count on their father. So if it ever came down to making rent or feeding my kids, you'd better believe I would sell it. Hope I don't get kicked out for admitting it, but it's the honest truth. Would I feel badly about it? Absolutely. Would that keep me from doing it? Nope.

MayDay10

I think buying for profit isn't cool.

Down the road, if times are tough, selling is permissable.

Buying one item for the purpose of trading is fine in my book.

Buying multiples of an item with the purpose of amassing trading chips isn't cool either.

mcgruff10

Frankbauer...you said it perfectly. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm glad other people feel the same as me. Take care.

PJ-Cubs

Carey wrote:

SVRDhand13 wrote:

I think many people are confused about this because 10C does not seem to have a solid stance on the issue. I thought no flipping was allowed at all until the Lost Dogs area of this forum was created. Seems like the general feeling is it is not flipping if you had the product for a while or bought the item without the intent to resell it. But how long is long enough and how do we know a buyer's intention?

I was just wondering about this same concept. For example, I was able to buy a copy of Backspacer white vinyl and I intend to hang on to it! But, I am also the single mom of a 2 and 4 year old, and I can't exactly count on their father. So if it ever came down to making rent or feeding my kids, you'd better believe I would sell it. Hope I don't get kicked out for admitting it, but it's the honest truth. Would I feel badly about it? Absolutely. Would that keep me from doing it? Nope.

I personally see no issue with re-selling the item later if you need cash. Your intent when buying the vinyl was not to sell it. What bothers me is when people buy stuff and then immediately go to sell it for profit.

F5AgainstOne

MayDay10 wrote:

I think buying for profit isn't cool.

Down the road, if times are tough, selling is permissable.

Buying one item for the purpose of trading is fine in my book.

Buying multiples of an item with the purpose of amassing trading chips isn't cool either.

Agreed.

dimitrispearljam

MayDay10 wrote:

I think buying for profit isn't cool.

Down the road, if times are tough, selling is permissable.

Buying one item for the purpose of trading is fine in my book.

Buying multiples of an item with the purpose of amassing trading chips isn't cool either.

i agree..+ when u buy for trade need to do it after the market make the price for the item you wanna trade it
if you wanna trade your just bought white vinyl,do it with an item that has the same value..
exable..if you bought today a white vinyl and try to trade it with a canadia 2011 poster i get it..
30$ the poster at the show less than a month..you pay 25+7.5 shipping for the lp.
but if u wanna trade it with a 98 poster of 400$ isnt cool

RW8297

I don't see the difference beetween trading backpack and no code vinyl or selling it for $100. That's fucking flipping as well.
Dimi, have you reported those bastards who are selling Vault #1 cd for 70-100$? That was a gift and I guess not for resale too. I think almost all of us have bought something on eBay at a ridiculous price. That's the way it goes. So don't blame people for doing that. We just need to convince Ten Club to set a limit on every item they sell. 1 per member seems to be fair.

And one more thing. I don't consider people who are selling backpack starting they bids from 1$ or face value as flippers. They just find people who's willing to pay 5 times the price it was available at the beginning. The same with benny vinyls or lost dogs, binaural.... I would like to find a person who would sell me any vinyl for 20$. Pm me.

dimitrispearljam

RW8297 wrote:

I don't see the difference beetween trading backpack and no code vinyl or selling it for $100. That's fucking flipping as well.
Dimi, did you report those bastards who are selling Vault #1 cd for 70-100$? That was a gift and I guess not for resale too. I think almost all of us have bought something on eBay at a ridiculous price. That's the way it goes. So don't blame people for doing that. We just need to convince Ten Club to set a limit on every item they sell. 1 per member seems to be fair.

And one more thing. I don't consider people who are selling backpack starting they bids from 1$ or face value as flippers. They just find people who's willing to pay 5 times the price it was available at the beginning. The same with benny vinyls or lost dogs, binaural.... I would like to find a person who would sell me any vinyl for 20$. Pm me.

when u bought a vinyl at 1996 like no code and you try to sell at 2011 ,15 years later it the market already made a new price for that..so its different this, than buy something yesterday,and sell it today 10 times up and isnt for resale at the first place..

FrankBauer

dimitrispearljam wrote:

when u bought a vinyl at 1996 like no code and you try to sell at 2011 ,15 years later it the market already made a new price for that..so its different this, than buy something yesterday,and sell it today 10 times up and isnt for resale at the first place..

problem with your argument is that when something sells out, a new market is created - even if its a day later. demand drives the market, doesnt matter if it was released in 1998 or 2011. the market is constantly changing. we crucify the sellers here, but shouldnt the buyers (or people starting ISO threads) receive just as much scrutiny? they are the fools dictating a new price. every item is in a constant state of flux.

and the "not for resale" line is BS. i dont believe 10c always had this policy posted in the items for sale, but they simply allow it to occur in the Lost Dogs forum. santos even stated that theres a "grace period" as to what's acceptable for flipping. yet not one chooses to define the length of that grace period. PJ-cubs thinks an acceptable grace period is as fast as priority shipping (for trades only). then others will argue theres no difference between trades (buying things as trade chips) or flipping for cash. no standard, no set rules. so, we demonize those that go against our own personal standards.

dimitrispearljam

FrankBauer wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

when u bought a vinyl at 1996 like no code and you try to sell at 2011 ,15 years later it the market already made a new price for that..so its different this, than buy something yesterday,and sell it today 10 times up and isnt for resale at the first place..

problem with your argument is that when something sells out, a new market is created - even if its a day later. demand drives the market, doesnt matter if it was released in 1998 or 2011. the market is constantly changing. we crucify the sellers here, but shouldnt the buyers (or people starting ISO threads) receive just as much scrutiny? they are the fools dictating a new price. every item is in a constant state of flux.

and the "not for resale" line is BS. i dont believe 10c always had this policy posted in the items for sale, but they simply allow it to occur in the Lost Dogs forum. santos even stated that theres a "grace period" as to what's acceptable for flipping. yet not one chooses to define the length of that grace period. PJ-cubs thinks an acceptable grace period is as fast as priority shipping (for trades only). then others will argue theres no difference between trades (buying things as trade chips) or flipping for cash. no standard, no set rules. so, we demonize those that go against our own personal standards.

i understand..but keeping one per member for sure put the price of the market down..not up..

ezekiel rocks

If you keep it at one per member then it will still drive the market up because the item is limited; meaning that there isn't enough to go around for everyone. Pearl jam can never make enough items to satisfy everyone. Someone always loses out, thus always creating a secondary market. Plus, you have those folks that are not members and/or check the thread as often as others do. I used to check the thread once every month and then later realized that I missed out on a bunch of great stuff.

sherm

This is an interesting topic. I sold a couple of shirts on here when I got back from Alpine Valley (for what I paid) and traded my hoodie because none of it fit me. I was lucky enough to be online yesterday at the time the white backspacer went back on sale, I was also unlucky enough to have UPS lose the posters that I shipped from Alpine on Sunday. Im still waiting for the whole UPS thing to shake out but a month from now if I start a thread about ISO Alpine Posters and one of the items that I have that someone may be interested in is the white backspacer then I may have to part with it. Hopefully people wont immediately jump to the conclusion that im a "flipper". I dont know if its always so easy to tell someones intent. I do think when people are ordering 4 or 5 of the same item though its obviously pretty shady.

dimitrispearljam

ezekiel rocks wrote:

If you keep it at one per member then it will still drive the market up because the item is limited; meaning that there isn't enough to go around for everyone. Pearl jam can never make enough items to satisfy everyone. Someone always loses out, thus always creating a secondary market. Plus, you have those folks that are not members and/or check the thread as often as others do. I used to check the thread once every month and then later realized that I missed out on a bunch of great stuff.

if 5000 copies goes to 5000 members is different than 5000 copies goes to 300 people..
the item will be more cheap if u have 5000 candidates for sell a product than 300