Flipping v Buying to trade

Mikee J

I have read the rules.. I am anti flipping.

I am also a bit peeved that people buy something, that is limited with the sole purpose of trading it.. it just deprives people of a product they may really want.

There is little room for ethical manoeveures in a set of rules.. however there is plenty of room for it in the way we go about things.... we can decide that this is as bad as flipping, not because of the profit element but because of that fact that someone else is being deprived of something you clearly don't want.

Just my thoughts..

SVRDhand13

I think many people are confused about this because 10C does not seem to have a solid stance on the issue. I thought no flipping was allowed at all until the Lost Dogs area of this forum was created. Seems like the general feeling is it is not flipping if you had the product for a while or bought the item without the intent to resell it. But how long is long enough and how do we know a buyer's intention?

FrankBauer

It's all based on buyer's intention. and since we can never know what that is, we are stuck with the status quo.

10c will continue to regulate recent sales like they have been doing. some people will be upset. others will flip.

the lynch mob here in the forums will regulate and berate members trying to sell stuff based on whats deemed acceptable in their eyes. the absurdity comes in because there is no standard. most seem to think of a "grace period" that is acceptable before you resell or trade, but no one defines it. so its based on popularity and reputation - its acceptable for some members to sell and others will be hung by the rafters. whats even more ridiculous is the few members that are praised for selling a recent item below market value, even though its still above face.

so because of differing opinions, no standard will be deemed acceptable. 10c won't define the standard, bc in a way, they will be officially condoning flipping. so we are stuck with the status quo.

Mikee J

Interesting replies.. I think the time scale issue is a sticking point, however buying a PJ White Vinyl on Thursday and putting it up for trade on Friday is pretty obvious in its intentions.

I am not sure there can be a definition and the issue of who does it is an obvious one. We can only self regulate and I for one think its wrong to trade an item (especially a limited one) the day after it sells out and there are clearly a lot of people who would like it for reasons other than gaining a different item you may not have. I believe this to be akin to flipping, without the obvious financial gain element.

I'd also like to add that this issue forced me to look on a certain auction website to see if there was any being flipped.. which if course exacerbates the whole issue (flippers exist because people buy the goods). I realised this as I was doing it and stopped looking, then got annoyed about it.

So, in a nutshell, buying with the sole intent to trade is akin to flipping and reinforces the flipping issue because it forces people who missed out on a buy to go to auction websites.

PJ-Cubs

To me, buying limited edition merch from the 10C with the sole intention to trade it for something more valuable is ALMOST the same as flipping.

I have seen people offering to trade limited edition items just hours after pressing the buy button. They obviously had no intent of ever keeping the item that they purchased and were just using it as trade bait. Plus, they cost another 10C member the chance to get the item.

I have no issue with people buying items, receiving them from 10C, deciding that they don't like or want the item and then trading it.

F5AgainstOne

My opinion is this...

I was deprived of pj20 posters because flippers were aloud to buy multiples.

I was able to get a Backspacer white vinyl. I'd keep it, but if some one wants to trade PJ20 posters for it, I'm not going to feel bad about it. It just means 2 fans are willing to trade for something they'd rather have, 2 fans are happy. Is'nt that a good thing?

I'm not profitting by trading. Sure, someone else didn't get a white vinyl, but... I didn't get posters.
If I didn't get the white vinyl, then I'd be the one that didn't get something.

Where is the line? Should I refrain from buying concert tix just to make sure all the people who are bigger fans than me get them first?
Someone is always going to get left out.

If i bought the white vinyl with the intention to sell it for profit, I would be wrong.


And

CranMalReign

10c already supports flipping. It's one of the main reasons (the only reason??) they gave for not having presales for PJ20 posters. It would hurt the secondary market.

*yawn*

PJ-Cubs

F5AgainstOne wrote:

My opinion is this...


Someone is always going to get left out.

And

That's why 10c needs to make more of this stuff.

Carey

SVRDhand13 wrote:

I think many people are confused about this because 10C does not seem to have a solid stance on the issue. I thought no flipping was allowed at all until the Lost Dogs area of this forum was created. Seems like the general feeling is it is not flipping if you had the product for a while or bought the item without the intent to resell it. But how long is long enough and how do we know a buyer's intention?

I was just wondering about this same concept. For example, I was able to buy a copy of Backspacer white vinyl and I intend to hang on to it! But, I am also the single mom of a 2 and 4 year old, and I can't exactly count on their father. So if it ever came down to making rent or feeding my kids, you'd better believe I would sell it. Hope I don't get kicked out for admitting it, but it's the honest truth. Would I feel badly about it? Absolutely. Would that keep me from doing it? Nope.

MayDay10

I think buying for profit isn't cool.

Down the road, if times are tough, selling is permissable.

Buying one item for the purpose of trading is fine in my book.

Buying multiples of an item with the purpose of amassing trading chips isn't cool either.

mcgruff10

Frankbauer...you said it perfectly. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm glad other people feel the same as me. Take care.

PJ-Cubs

Carey wrote:

SVRDhand13 wrote:

I think many people are confused about this because 10C does not seem to have a solid stance on the issue. I thought no flipping was allowed at all until the Lost Dogs area of this forum was created. Seems like the general feeling is it is not flipping if you had the product for a while or bought the item without the intent to resell it. But how long is long enough and how do we know a buyer's intention?

I was just wondering about this same concept. For example, I was able to buy a copy of Backspacer white vinyl and I intend to hang on to it! But, I am also the single mom of a 2 and 4 year old, and I can't exactly count on their father. So if it ever came down to making rent or feeding my kids, you'd better believe I would sell it. Hope I don't get kicked out for admitting it, but it's the honest truth. Would I feel badly about it? Absolutely. Would that keep me from doing it? Nope.

I personally see no issue with re-selling the item later if you need cash. Your intent when buying the vinyl was not to sell it. What bothers me is when people buy stuff and then immediately go to sell it for profit.

F5AgainstOne

MayDay10 wrote:

I think buying for profit isn't cool.

Down the road, if times are tough, selling is permissable.

Buying one item for the purpose of trading is fine in my book.

Buying multiples of an item with the purpose of amassing trading chips isn't cool either.

Agreed.

dimitrispearljam

MayDay10 wrote:

I think buying for profit isn't cool.

Down the road, if times are tough, selling is permissable.

Buying one item for the purpose of trading is fine in my book.

Buying multiples of an item with the purpose of amassing trading chips isn't cool either.

i agree..+ when u buy for trade need to do it after the market make the price for the item you wanna trade it
if you wanna trade your just bought white vinyl,do it with an item that has the same value..
exable..if you bought today a white vinyl and try to trade it with a canadia 2011 poster i get it..
30$ the poster at the show less than a month..you pay 25+7.5 shipping for the lp.
but if u wanna trade it with a 98 poster of 400$ isnt cool

RW8297

I don't see the difference beetween trading backpack and no code vinyl or selling it for $100. That's fucking flipping as well.
Dimi, have you reported those bastards who are selling Vault #1 cd for 70-100$? That was a gift and I guess not for resale too. I think almost all of us have bought something on eBay at a ridiculous price. That's the way it goes. So don't blame people for doing that. We just need to convince Ten Club to set a limit on every item they sell. 1 per member seems to be fair.

And one more thing. I don't consider people who are selling backpack starting they bids from 1$ or face value as flippers. They just find people who's willing to pay 5 times the price it was available at the beginning. The same with benny vinyls or lost dogs, binaural.... I would like to find a person who would sell me any vinyl for 20$. Pm me.

dimitrispearljam

RW8297 wrote:

I don't see the difference beetween trading backpack and no code vinyl or selling it for $100. That's fucking flipping as well.
Dimi, did you report those bastards who are selling Vault #1 cd for 70-100$? That was a gift and I guess not for resale too. I think almost all of us have bought something on eBay at a ridiculous price. That's the way it goes. So don't blame people for doing that. We just need to convince Ten Club to set a limit on every item they sell. 1 per member seems to be fair.

And one more thing. I don't consider people who are selling backpack starting they bids from 1$ or face value as flippers. They just find people who's willing to pay 5 times the price it was available at the beginning. The same with benny vinyls or lost dogs, binaural.... I would like to find a person who would sell me any vinyl for 20$. Pm me.

when u bought a vinyl at 1996 like no code and you try to sell at 2011 ,15 years later it the market already made a new price for that..so its different this, than buy something yesterday,and sell it today 10 times up and isnt for resale at the first place..

FrankBauer

dimitrispearljam wrote:

when u bought a vinyl at 1996 like no code and you try to sell at 2011 ,15 years later it the market already made a new price for that..so its different this, than buy something yesterday,and sell it today 10 times up and isnt for resale at the first place..

problem with your argument is that when something sells out, a new market is created - even if its a day later. demand drives the market, doesnt matter if it was released in 1998 or 2011. the market is constantly changing. we crucify the sellers here, but shouldnt the buyers (or people starting ISO threads) receive just as much scrutiny? they are the fools dictating a new price. every item is in a constant state of flux.

and the "not for resale" line is BS. i dont believe 10c always had this policy posted in the items for sale, but they simply allow it to occur in the Lost Dogs forum. santos even stated that theres a "grace period" as to what's acceptable for flipping. yet not one chooses to define the length of that grace period. PJ-cubs thinks an acceptable grace period is as fast as priority shipping (for trades only). then others will argue theres no difference between trades (buying things as trade chips) or flipping for cash. no standard, no set rules. so, we demonize those that go against our own personal standards.

dimitrispearljam

FrankBauer wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

when u bought a vinyl at 1996 like no code and you try to sell at 2011 ,15 years later it the market already made a new price for that..so its different this, than buy something yesterday,and sell it today 10 times up and isnt for resale at the first place..

problem with your argument is that when something sells out, a new market is created - even if its a day later. demand drives the market, doesnt matter if it was released in 1998 or 2011. the market is constantly changing. we crucify the sellers here, but shouldnt the buyers (or people starting ISO threads) receive just as much scrutiny? they are the fools dictating a new price. every item is in a constant state of flux.

and the "not for resale" line is BS. i dont believe 10c always had this policy posted in the items for sale, but they simply allow it to occur in the Lost Dogs forum. santos even stated that theres a "grace period" as to what's acceptable for flipping. yet not one chooses to define the length of that grace period. PJ-cubs thinks an acceptable grace period is as fast as priority shipping (for trades only). then others will argue theres no difference between trades (buying things as trade chips) or flipping for cash. no standard, no set rules. so, we demonize those that go against our own personal standards.

i understand..but keeping one per member for sure put the price of the market down..not up..

ezekiel rocks

If you keep it at one per member then it will still drive the market up because the item is limited; meaning that there isn't enough to go around for everyone. Pearl jam can never make enough items to satisfy everyone. Someone always loses out, thus always creating a secondary market. Plus, you have those folks that are not members and/or check the thread as often as others do. I used to check the thread once every month and then later realized that I missed out on a bunch of great stuff.

sherm

This is an interesting topic. I sold a couple of shirts on here when I got back from Alpine Valley (for what I paid) and traded my hoodie because none of it fit me. I was lucky enough to be online yesterday at the time the white backspacer went back on sale, I was also unlucky enough to have UPS lose the posters that I shipped from Alpine on Sunday. Im still waiting for the whole UPS thing to shake out but a month from now if I start a thread about ISO Alpine Posters and one of the items that I have that someone may be interested in is the white backspacer then I may have to part with it. Hopefully people wont immediately jump to the conclusion that im a "flipper". I dont know if its always so easy to tell someones intent. I do think when people are ordering 4 or 5 of the same item though its obviously pretty shady.

dimitrispearljam

ezekiel rocks wrote:

If you keep it at one per member then it will still drive the market up because the item is limited; meaning that there isn't enough to go around for everyone. Pearl jam can never make enough items to satisfy everyone. Someone always loses out, thus always creating a secondary market. Plus, you have those folks that are not members and/or check the thread as often as others do. I used to check the thread once every month and then later realized that I missed out on a bunch of great stuff.

if 5000 copies goes to 5000 members is different than 5000 copies goes to 300 people..
the item will be more cheap if u have 5000 candidates for sell a product than 300

stickman

sherm wrote:

This is an interesting topic. I sold a couple of shirts on here when I got back from Alpine Valley (for what I paid) and traded my hoodie because none of it fit me. I was lucky enough to be online yesterday at the time the white backspacer went back on sale, I was also unlucky enough to have UPS lose the posters that I shipped from Alpine on Sunday. Im still waiting for the whole UPS thing to shake out but a month from now if I start a thread about ISO Alpine Posters and one of the items that I have that someone may be interested in is the white backspacer then I may have to part with it. Hopefully people wont immediately jump to the conclusion that im a "flipper". I dont know if its always so easy to tell someones intent. I do think when people are ordering 4 or 5 of the same item though its obviously pretty shady.

To me the vinyl should ve worth $25 + shipping ($7.50) in trade. That is we are going by what others are alwys in favor of unless they have a flippable item. Those same people pm the mods and waaaaaa waaaaa to them when others are supposedly flipping an item they could not get. Then selling a sports themed shirt they got last noght for $100.00.


Waaaa waaaaa I didn't get a backpack. Waaaa waaa I ordered six white backspacer lp's for me and my friends and they only let me have one. Waaaaaa waaaa waaaaa..... The sense of entitlement around here is atrocious!

sherm

I hadnt been on the board in a couple of years until about a week before the alpine shows. I didnt even know the lost dogs forum existed until after I got home and saw that people were looking for shirts. Im all for helping each other out and bypassing the whole ebay situation, which sucks. Ive paid too much for posters on there too many times. As far as the sense of entitlement goes, the shit I was reading last night blew my mind. I think alot of people just get lost in this madness. Its easy to do. I dont reply much but its sure easy to find myself following some of those threads when I could be doing something a little more productive.

theserialthrilla

if you want more then one item..all you need to do is take out another membership at $25

i have never bough anything from this club with the thought of making money from it nor have i ever sold anything i have bought from this club ..and i only have one membership :P

but your not stop the flippers..

dimitrispearljam

theserialthrilla wrote:

but your not stop the flippers..

its a fuckin start!!!!

Bergfall

I feel this can be summed up pretty easily...
if you do it here, it's mostly ok, cause we get to harass you,
if you do the Ebay way, you suck ;-)

We are a protective community, and I love it,
but there is always a thin line between that and being too self-righteous...

drewdawgq

Buying one item with the intention of trading it is not even in the same league as flipping. The intent of flipping is solely to make profit without regard to who is buying the item or the fairness of the price. It is malicious and deceitful. Flippers are like used car salesmen. Buying multiple limited items to collect "trading chips" is similar to flipping but not quite as bad. The person doing this gets their own personal copy of the item and has plenty of stock to trade away for other hard-to-find goods. They have nothing to lose and have taken advantage of the system. When we are limited to only one copy of the item (eg, White BS vinyl), buying it with the intention of trading is simply the result of being at the right place at the right time. The person trading it will lose their only copy but gain something they didn't have before. If it's a fair trade, the person on the receiving end is getting something they wanted and perhaps giving up something that doesn't mean as much to them. It's practically a win-win situation. IMO, buying one item with the intention of trading for another similarly rare item is ok.

stickman

drewdawgq wrote:

Buying one item with the intention of trading it is not even in the same league as flipping. The intent of flipping is solely to make profit without regard to who is buying the item or the fairness of the price. It is malicious and deceitful. Flippers are like used car salesmen. Buying multiple limited items to collect "trading chips" is similar to flipping but not quite as bad. The person doing this gets their own personal copy of the item and has plenty of stock to trade away for other hard-to-find goods. They have nothing to lose and have taken advantage of the system. When we are limited to only one copy of the item (eg, White BS vinyl), buying it with the intention of trading is simply the result of being at the right place at the right time. The person trading it will lose their only copy but gain something they didn't have before. If it's a fair trade, the person on the receiving end is getting something they wanted and perhaps giving up something that doesn't mean as much to them. It's practically a win-win situation. IMO, buying one item with the intention of trading for another similarly rare item is ok.

drewdawg then you must have missed the whole point then brother. This whole thing stems from people who bought multiple copies of BS White Vinyl and then in the end they were only allowed one copy. The people are pissed. If you were lucky enough to get a backpack and you choose to trade it for a Lost Dogs Vinyl that is on you, not right but on you. If you bought 3 of them and were doing that, well that is a bit messed up. I full well know there was a limit on them people.

shep

This is a touchy subject for a couple of reasons... however I feel the need to chime in with my own two cents.... :shock:

IMO, buying for the purpose of trading is the equivalent of flipping, because 99% of the time the person is buying the item because they believe it to be worth much more than the price of what they paid for it. Your average person who buys "trade bait" focuses on the "limited edition" aspect of the item, hoping it's something that the 10C will sell out of quickly. Most people do not want to buy "trade bait" that will have to sit on a shelf 5-10 years before it has a real increase in value.... they want to buy the items 10C is going to sell out of quickly and they can then turn around and trade for something that has a market value of significantly more than what they originally paid for their item.

For example - take the person who, as soon as the BS white vinyl disappeared from the store, offered it up to trade for the Klausen Hamilton S/N Variant. The price of the poster: $120. The price of the vinyl: $25. Now I'm sure the person offering the vinyl thought they were offering anyone willing to trade a good deal; as we all know, these BS white vinyls have regularly fetched $800+ on that unnamed auction website.... but really, how is this not flipping? You're trying to trade something you paid $25 for for something that someone else paid $120 for.... that's almost a 500% profit margin! And this isn't just one example... this is how 99% of the people who buy "trade bait" function.

People need to stop buying things for "trade bait" because, ultimately, your doing the same thing that a flipper is doing: you are (1) preventing people who actually want the item for their own personal use from having it and (2) not looking to trade the item for something of equal value for what you just paid.

That's my two cents. And that will stay my 2 cents until I see someone offer to trade their BS white vinyl for another $25 item in the store...

(P.S. Sorry to really focus on the white vinyl, but it's just the most recent example...)

ezekiel rocks

dimitrispearljam wrote:

ezekiel rocks wrote:

If you keep it at one per member then it will still drive the market up because the item is limited; meaning that there isn't enough to go around for everyone. Pearl jam can never make enough items to satisfy everyone. Someone always loses out, thus always creating a secondary market. Plus, you have those folks that are not members and/or check the thread as often as others do. I used to check the thread once every month and then later realized that I missed out on a bunch of great stuff.

if 5000 copies goes to 5000 members is different than 5000 copies goes to 300 people..
the item will be more cheap if u have 5000 candidates for sell a product than 300

But when is your scenario ever the case on limited stuff and/or posters and/or most of the stuff sold through the 10C? You are comparing apples to oranges.

dimitrispearljam

ezekiel rocks wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

ezekiel rocks wrote:

If you keep it at one per member then it will still drive the market up because the item is limited; meaning that there isn't enough to go around for everyone. Pearl jam can never make enough items to satisfy everyone. Someone always loses out, thus always creating a secondary market. Plus, you have those folks that are not members and/or check the thread as often as others do. I used to check the thread once every month and then later realized that I missed out on a bunch of great stuff.

if 5000 copies goes to 5000 members is different than 5000 copies goes to 300 people..
the item will be more cheap if u have 5000 candidates for sell a product than 300

But when is your scenario ever the case on limited stuff and/or posters and/or most of the stuff sold through the 10C? You are comparing apples to oranges.

i dont know about apples and oranges,for sure i know what happens when more 10c members have the chance to get an item than items going only to a few people who want to flip them