U.S. born Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed

Cliffy6745

Who Princess wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Because as I've grappled with these types of issues over the last decade and my own beliefs on them, I think this is part of an effective strategy and much better than nation building. But I do have some concerns with it as well.

I'm not sorry the guy's dead but I'm not sure how I feel about it. In a lot of ways a pretty good case could be made for getting rid of him. He certainly inspired a lot of people, like the Ft. Hood shooter, the underwear bomber, and the Times Square bomber.

But is calling for attacks the same thing as carrying them out? Did he ever actually commit any violence or plan any of the attacks he's associated with? As I understand it, he wasn't under any U.S. indictments. So now we use drone strikes to kill one of our citizens?

As I said, I'm not gonna mourn him. I just don't know if this will prove to be a major blow to Al Qaeda or an improvement in security.

The guy inspired a United States troop to kill 13 of his comrades. I don't give a shit if he pulled the trigger or not, that kind of influence is as dangerous as it gets.

polaris_x

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Torture certainly made them stronger. Killing an english speaking savvy recruiter who inspired many to kill Americans will not make them stronger. That's bullshit.

ok ... just keep bombing and killing people ... see where it will get you guys ... i find it interesting that no one wants to comment on why al qaeda exists in the first place ...

where are all the ron paul guys!?? ...

Cliffy6745

polaris_x wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Torture certainly made them stronger. Killing an english speaking savvy recruiter who inspired many to kill Americans will not make them stronger. That's bullshit.

ok ... just keep bombing and killing people ... see where it will get you guys ... i find it interesting that no one wants to comment on why al qaeda exists in the first place ...

where are all the ron paul guys!?? ...

I hear what you are saying and I agree that there are some fundamental principles with our foreign policy that lead the these groups being developed. Some things need to change and quite frankly some don't but until then, the world is a better place without this sick fuck.

polaris_x

Cliffy6745 wrote:

I hear what you are saying and I agree that there are some fundamental principles with our foreign policy that lead the these groups being developed. Some things need to change and quite frankly some don't but until then, the world is a better place without this sick fuck.

:(

Cliffy6745

polaris_x wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

I hear what you are saying and I agree that there are some fundamental principles with our foreign policy that lead the these groups being developed. Some things need to change and quite frankly some don't but until then, the world is a better place without this sick fuck.

:(

I have no idea what your sad face means.

Cosmo

Does this mean we can keep our shoes on at the airport now?

Who Princess

Cosmo wrote:

Does this mean we can keep our shoes on at the airport now?

Nope, and don't try carrying more than 3 oz of shampoo. They'll keep on screening people for the kinds of plots that have already been prevented.

However, I believe you can continue to wear underwear.

Cosmo

Who Princess wrote:

However, I believe you can continue to wear underwear.

...
What is this... 'underwear'... you speak of?

Idris

CIA Assassinates Two American Citizens in Yemen
Obama Lauds Killings as Proof of America's Reach

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/09/30/cia- ... -in-yemen/

National Intelligence Director confirmed in April 2010 was the first American citizen ever added to President Obama’s official list of assassination targets for the CIA.

The confirmation sparked immediate concern because despite repeatedly railing at Awlaki for his anti-US sermons and implying he had some sort of tie with al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) was not charged with any crimes at all, let alone a capital offense.

It also spawned an attempted lawsuit by Awlaki’s father and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), who argued that it was inappropriate for the president to order the execution of American citizens without formal charges and a trial.
---

mikepegg44

polaris_x wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Torture certainly made them stronger. Killing an english speaking savvy recruiter who inspired many to kill Americans will not make them stronger. That's bullshit.

ok ... just keep bombing and killing people ... see where it will get you guys ... i find it interesting that no one wants to comment on why al qaeda exists in the first place ...

where are all the ron paul guys!?? ...

people comment on that all the time. literally all the time. haven't seen a week go by where comments regarding the origin and the perpetuation of the group aren't made(double negative I know). It rings true every time. They will not stop until we are out of the middle east and our only contact is trade/economic and it doesn't involve us trying to throw our weight around like we own the place. Whether we like it or not, the "war" will never end until that happens...could go on for thousands of years...The strange part is that we all talk about how the region has been fighting for thousands of years, and it is always a who started it argument...now we are at the start of what could be hundreds of years from now, a who started it argument involving the US...I just hope we realize as a government before it is too late and just get the hell out of the way. If they want to destroy themselves let them, there is no reason to continue to provoke generational hatred against Americans.
bring 'em home. that is all that needs to be said. Ridding the world of an evil angry person is all fine and good, call me when you get them all and I will have a cupcake waiting. might even make it myself.

and speaking of Ron Paul. For all the liberals who choke every time they consider voting or supporting a republican...this shit will end if you support Paul. We may get attacked again, but it won't be because our government is on foreign soil dictating how others live their lives...at least at that point we will have an answer for who started it. Support someone who will stop the wars if you want them to end, support someone who will stand up against perpetual warfare... Or support Obama or anyone else and see four more years of creating new enemies while trying to kill old ones all the while complaining about it...Your choice.

polaris_x

mikepegg44 wrote:

people comment on that all the time. literally all the time. haven't seen a week go by where comments regarding the origin and the perpetuation of the group aren't made(double negative I know). It rings true every time. They will not stop until we are out of the middle east and our only contact is trade/economic and it doesn't involve us trying to throw our weight around like we own the place. Whether we like it or not, the "war" will never end until that happens...could go on for thousands of years...The strange part is that we all talk about how the region has been fighting for thousands of years, and it is always a who started it argument...now we are at the start of what could be hundreds of years from now, a who started it argument involving the US...I just hope we realize as a government before it is too late and just get the hell out of the way. If they want to destroy themselves let them, there is no reason to continue to provoke generational hatred against Americans.
bring 'em home. that is all that needs to be said. Ridding the world of an evil angry person is all fine and good, call me when you get them all and I will have a cupcake waiting. might even make it myself.

and speaking of Ron Paul. For all the liberals who choke every time they consider voting or supporting a republican...this shit will end if you support Paul. We may get attacked again, but it won't be because our government is on foreign soil dictating how others live their lives...at least at that point we will have an answer for who started it. Support someone who will stop the wars if you want them to end, support someone who will stand up against perpetual warfare... Or support Obama or anyone else and see four more years of creating new enemies while trying to kill old ones all the while complaining about it...Your choice.

if you goto the ron paul thread ... i said that everyone should vote for him ...

mikepegg44

polaris_x wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

people comment on that all the time. literally all the time. haven't seen a week go by where comments regarding the origin and the perpetuation of the group aren't made(double negative I know). It rings true every time. They will not stop until we are out of the middle east and our only contact is trade/economic and it doesn't involve us trying to throw our weight around like we own the place. Whether we like it or not, the "war" will never end until that happens...could go on for thousands of years...The strange part is that we all talk about how the region has been fighting for thousands of years, and it is always a who started it argument...now we are at the start of what could be hundreds of years from now, a who started it argument involving the US...I just hope we realize as a government before it is too late and just get the hell out of the way. If they want to destroy themselves let them, there is no reason to continue to provoke generational hatred against Americans.
bring 'em home. that is all that needs to be said. Ridding the world of an evil angry person is all fine and good, call me when you get them all and I will have a cupcake waiting. might even make it myself.

and speaking of Ron Paul. For all the liberals who choke every time they consider voting or supporting a republican...this shit will end if you support Paul. We may get attacked again, but it won't be because our government is on foreign soil dictating how others live their lives...at least at that point we will have an answer for who started it. Support someone who will stop the wars if you want them to end, support someone who will stand up against perpetual warfare... Or support Obama or anyone else and see four more years of creating new enemies while trying to kill old ones all the while complaining about it...Your choice.

if you goto the ron paul thread ... i said that everyone should vote for him ...

I wasnt necessarily talking to you specifically

SVRDhand13

polaris_x wrote:

SVRDhand13 wrote:

Oh please. Killing him stops a top leader from managing more attacks. I hate war and agree we must do only what is necessary, but going after these top terrorists is an absolute must to me. Are we supposed to stand around and let them become strong?

every time you kill someone or torture someone - you are making them stronger ... these guys are replaceable ... there is no mastermind ... someone else just takes his place ...

again - until americans realize why there are groups like al qaeda ... there is no winning this war ...

When a top official is replaced, communication in the group changes. Changes slow them down and disrupt plans. They do not get stronger, they get disorganized. Yes, they will be mad. But it is better than allowing them to establish a strong group like the one that existed pre 9/11.

cincybearcat

SVRDhand13 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

SVRDhand13 wrote:

Oh please. Killing him stops a top leader from managing more attacks. I hate war and agree we must do only what is necessary, but going after these top terrorists is an absolute must to me. Are we supposed to stand around and let them become strong?

every time you kill someone or torture someone - you are making them stronger ... these guys are replaceable ... there is no mastermind ... someone else just takes his place ...

again - until americans realize why there are groups like al qaeda ... there is no winning this war ...

When a top official is replaced, communication in the group changes. Changes slow them down and disrupt plans. They do not get stronger, they get disorganized. Yes, they will be mad. But it is better than allowing them to establish a strong group like the one that existed pre 9/11.

Couldn't it also cause some dissension in the ranks? I mean, when a CEO leaves a company, they pick a new one and the company moves on with that new vision. And the other top people that didn't get the job move on to other organizations generally.

So couldn't removing a leader cause a split in the group? You may end up with more, smaller groups but there is no way they can be as effective on a global scale.

I think some people are discounting how important leadership is.

polaris_x

SVRDhand13 wrote:

When a top official is replaced, communication in the group changes. Changes slow them down and disrupt plans. They do not get stronger, they get disorganized. Yes, they will be mad. But it is better than allowing them to establish a strong group like the one that existed pre 9/11.

i'm sorry but i don't see the relevance ...

ultimately, it boils down to this: is america/world safer now? ... are lives potentially saved? ... my answer to both those questions is a definitive no ...

is peace even a goal?

Better Dan

polaris_x wrote:

SVRDhand13 wrote:

When a top official is replaced, communication in the group changes. Changes slow them down and disrupt plans. They do not get stronger, they get disorganized. Yes, they will be mad. But it is better than allowing them to establish a strong group like the one that existed pre 9/11.

i'm sorry but i don't see the relevance ...

ultimately, it boils down to this: is america/world safer now? ... are lives potentially saved? ... my answer to both those questions is a definitive no ...

is peace even a goal?

What's a realistic option? The U.S. is not just going to withdraw from all "muslim lands." I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, but it's just not going to happen. I definitely wish our foreign policy would change in regards to our country's blanket support fo Israel though. I don't support murder, but if you don't think that these terrorist individuals should be killed, what should we do? Just let them continue to plan attacks?

Cliffy6745

polaris_x wrote:

SVRDhand13 wrote:

When a top official is replaced, communication in the group changes. Changes slow them down and disrupt plans. They do not get stronger, they get disorganized. Yes, they will be mad. But it is better than allowing them to establish a strong group like the one that existed pre 9/11.

i'm sorry but i don't see the relevance ...

ultimately, it boils down to this: is america/world safer now? ... are lives potentially saved? ... my answer to both those questions is a definitive no ...

is peace even a goal?

How can you conceivebly think the world is not at all safer? A United States soldier killed 13 of his comrades at the urging of this man. Killing him takes away the possibility of him personally brainwashing another, or the failed terrorists who followed him. Sure his nonsense is still out there but he can't add to it or speak personally with potential terrorists. Is there a possibility that another asshat can take his spot? sure, but he worked very hard to get where he was and was very influential. I don't think another like him will emerge easily.

Cliffy6745

Better Dan wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

SVRDhand13 wrote:

When a top official is replaced, communication in the group changes. Changes slow them down and disrupt plans. They do not get stronger, they get disorganized. Yes, they will be mad. But it is better than allowing them to establish a strong group like the one that existed pre 9/11.

i'm sorry but i don't see the relevance ...

ultimately, it boils down to this: is america/world safer now? ... are lives potentially saved? ... my answer to both those questions is a definitive no ...

is peace even a goal?

What's a realistic option? The U.S. is not just going to withdraw from all "muslim lands." I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, but it's just not going to happen. I definitely wish our foreign policy would change in regards to our country's blanket support fo Israel though. I don't support murder, but if you don't think that these terrorist individuals should be killed, what should we do? Just let them continue to plan attacks?

Apparently we should ask him nicely to stop. Note to Obama, make sure you say please and thank you. Might want to think about sending a fruit basket.

gimmesometruth27

you would be surprised. diplomacy has gone a long way in the past.

not that we would ever consider using that on the "turrists" though....

we are never going to win the "war on turr" doing what we are doing now.

the only way to win a war on a tactic, which is what terrorism is, is not to fight..

Cosmo

I neither celebrate nor mourn this death because it changes nothing.
Why? Because the way Al Qeada is structured is the way we (the U.S.) designed it. Yes... we taught the Mujahadin how to mesh small, autonomous factions into a web, rather than a hierarchy so it could survive losses against superior Soviet forces. That's why it is a network, rather than an army. It is not their design structure... it is ours.
Even if we kill this guy... the web still operates and subordinates get resources from another command operator. It's actually... a pretty nice design at a strategic/tactical level. It allows a relatively small number of commanders operate with little communication and virtually no authorization required. It can take, otherwise, devastating blows and continue to function. Perfect if you are a small number of untrainned combatants taking on a force that is superior in numbers, weaponry and technology... like the Soviets.
...
Add: Does anyone think I.E.Ds were invented in Iraq? Those 'Hit and Run' tactics were taught to 'Freedom Fighter' Bin Laden himself, by our intelligence agents and military advisors. It worked like a charm against Soviet armored divisions. It wore down the Soviet people who became disillusioned with the war when the broken bodies of their soldiers told them the truth about what was going on over there. The only thing that has changed are the markings on the tanks.
...
The path to victory: Change our decades long fucked up Foriegn Policy in the Middle East. Buy their fucking oil, get a receipt and quit meddling in their domestic affairs.