The Death Penalty

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  • dankinddankind Posts: 20,839
    edited September 2015
    "Death's definitely a penalty. Ain't no fucking gift. Life's too goddamn short."

    -- John the bum (William Preston) The Fisher King
    Post edited by dankind on
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    dignin said:

    pdalowsky said:

    dignin said:

    I don't know if this has come up yet.

    Ali Mohammed Bagir al-Nimr faces imminent execution for crimes he allegedly committed when he was just 17 years old. The evidence against him? A forced “confession” under torture.

    http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1770&ea.campaign.id=42650

    Saudi Arabia, only marginally ahead of the USA.......
    That's just it.
    We do have a Taliban and ayatollah. ted Cruz .
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • pdalowskypdalowsky Posts: 15,073
    Ok what they are doing now is bordering on torture

  • pdalowsky said:

    Ok what they are doing now is bordering on torture

    no kidding.
    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    149 people on death row have been released due to being falsely convicted since Supreme Court re authorized capital punishment in US.

    149!!!!
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845
    edited October 2015
    Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competent defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html
    Post edited by oftenreading on
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competence defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    This is good.

    The people we need to execute are those who have truly earned such a sentence.

    The only reason (reason #1, Callen) to hesitate with a sentence of death is the chance of executing someone who is innocent.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competent defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    Could you also argue an imcompetent prosecution?
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845

    Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competent defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    Could you also argue an imcompetent prosecution?
    You can try to argue that if you want to. Have you got any evidence for that assertion?
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competent defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    Could you also argue an imcompetent prosecution?
    You can try to argue that if you want to. Have you got any evidence for that assertion?
    The small number of cases that prisoners are sentenced to death due to an incompetent defense seem higher than that of a competent prosecution.
  • Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competence defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    This is good.

    The people we need to execute are those who have truly earned such a sentence.

    The only reason (reason #1, Callen) to hesitate with a sentence of death is the chance of executing someone who is innocent.
    no, reason number 1 is the idea that humans should not be allowed to decide who lives or dies.

    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competence defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    This is good.

    The people we need to execute are those who have truly earned such a sentence.

    The only reason (reason #1, Callen) to hesitate with a sentence of death is the chance of executing someone who is innocent.
    no, reason number 1 is the idea that humans should not be allowed to decide who lives or dies.

    When someone takes it upon themselves to decide who dies and murders someone... they break this basic principle.

    They don't follow your idea. Why are we bound by it? Sometimes when you wrestle with pigs you get dirty.

    It's been said before (and fittingly will be said again given your bumblebee story)... without hesitation humans will trap mice when those creatures are doing nothing other than being mice and kill them. Yet... we take the high road with some mutant that rapes and mutilates children?

    Yeah. Not me. There's more value in a rodent or bumblebee than there is someone who kills someone's children. Sorry you can't see it this way.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • I still feel sorry for stepping on ants for fun when I was a kid.
    The justice system stepping snuffing the life out of an atrocious human I have no problem with.
  • Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competence defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    This is good.

    The people we need to execute are those who have truly earned such a sentence.

    The only reason (reason #1, Callen) to hesitate with a sentence of death is the chance of executing someone who is innocent.
    no, reason number 1 is the idea that humans should not be allowed to decide who lives or dies.

    When someone takes it upon themselves to decide who dies and murders someone... they break this basic principle.

    They don't follow your idea. Why are we bound by it? Sometimes when you wrestle with pigs you get dirty.

    It's been said before (and fittingly will be said again given your bumblebee story)... without hesitation humans will trap mice when those creatures are doing nothing other than being mice and kill them. Yet... we take the high road with some mutant that rapes and mutilates children?

    Yeah. Not me. There's more value in a rodent or bumblebee than there is someone who kills someone's children. Sorry you can't see it this way.
    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    I have never spoken to someone's value. It is not for me to decide.

    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,948
    edited November 2015



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,948

    PJ_Soul said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

    Say what now?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambs said:

    ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

    Say what now?
    Jail for the rest of their life instead of the DP.
  • PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Except it's not 'murder'. It's justice in its most natural form.

    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    rgambs said:

    ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

    Say what now?
    Jail for the rest of their life instead of the DP.
    Are you saying they kill so they can go to prison?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

    Say what now?
    Jail for the rest of their life instead of the DP.
    Are you saying they kill so they can go to prison?
    Some yes.
    Their shitty existence of a life is much better on the inside.
    Their deluded minds (the only state in which one would kill) recognizes that and they commit the act.
    No remorse, pure psychotic.
  • PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    The system is getting refined though.
    Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,948
    edited November 2015

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    The system is getting refined though.
    Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.
    And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    The system is getting refined though.
    Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.
    And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that you don't think its murder.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,948
    edited November 2015

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    The system is getting refined though.
    Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.
    And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that you don't think its murder.
    Thirty Bills suggested it's not murder. I am saying it is. Do you think it's helpful for you to turn this into a conversation about the difference between him disagreeing with me that it's murder and him disagreeing with me that I think it's murder?
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • ^^^
    Just trying to stop the circular debate.
    It's not murder.
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