14 signs that the collapse of our modern world has begun

he still stands

polaris_x wrote:

dude ... just look at all the scientists that have been silenced ... from NASA to NOAA to the EPA ... the agenda is political and this is MONSANTO ... i honestly can't believe someone actually buys the propaganda put forth by that company ... sure, all those Indian Farmers are committing suicide because they feel like it ... ???

Monsanto is definitely a corrupt organization... I'm in no way supportive of that company. But the Indian thing seems to be a factor of drought and debt... neither of which Monsanto can control. I'm sorry I just can't take you seriously when you reference NASA and NOAA when we're talking about food safety...

polaris_x wrote:

the other myth is that food science is about feeding the people ... it's like bombing children in iraq is about freedom too? ... FDA agents are raiding rawmilk co-ops with guns raised ... why?? ... because these co-ops are filled with evil guys who kill people? ... no, because they are protecting the interests of the industrialized food system ... industrialized food and sustainability are oxymoronic ... that is a fact ... lemme guess - all you look at is yield per acre ... but don't factor resources, resulting pollution, global emissions, health of the soil, impacts to health, etc?

again, I take issue with your statement that makes my industry, education and life (I grew up on a farm) tantamount to bombing children in Iraq. Your statements have a different fact base than mine. My fact base comes from a university education and a lifetime of service in agriculture (including my current job refinancing debt for farmers). It seems like your fact base comes exclusively from "New Age weekly" . I don't think we'll be able to reconcile these differenes in fact bases so any further debate is pointless.

polaris_x

he still stands wrote:

Monsanto is definitely a corrupt organization... I'm in no way supportive of that company. But the Indian thing seems to be a factor of drought and debt... neither of which Monsanto can control. I'm sorry I just can't take you seriously when you reference NASA and NOAA when we're talking about food safety...

NASA and NOAA are in reference to the suppression of science within the gov't ... the suicides in India are related to the fucked up seed and pesticides they are making the indian farmers use ...

he still stands wrote:

again, I take issue with your statement that makes my industry, education and life (I grew up on a farm) tantamount to bombing children in Iraq. Your statements have a different fact base than mine. My fact base comes from a university education and a lifetime of service in agriculture (including my current job refinancing debt for farmers). It seems like your fact base comes exclusively from "New Age weekly" . I don't think we'll be able to reconcile these differenes in fact bases so any further debate is pointless.

i agree to disagree ... all i can say is - i do have a great deal of respect for farmers ... i know quite a few actually as I do a lot of my shopping at farmers markets and my gf runs a CSA ... and they are fully behind the idea that food production when managed by large corporations are meant for one purpose and one purpose only ... profits ...

lemme ask you this ... why do many farmers require refinancing and how many farmers are running up huge debts?

edit: also ... why is rGBH banned everywhere? ... you think it's only because of its affects on the animals? ... pretty much every independent study says there needs to be more research done ... but this is Monsanto here ...

brianlux

It's odd to me that articles like this one are perceived as "radical" or hyperboli. I've been reading about this stuff for 45 years (starting in high school with Huxley up to most recently, McKibben's Eaarth). More importantly, I've been watching all of this unravel. Careful observation (or lately, simple observation) of the real world outside my home, computer, TV-- it's all there to see, it's all happening, it's all real. The results of all this may be radical but the information is not. It is the reality of what is happening. We would do well to be educated, learn real skills and pass along what we know. Should we also have fun and keep a sense of humor? Oh, absolutely!

LikeAnOcean

For someone against CNN news, this article sure reads like a bunch of CNN news stories.. hmmm.

Jeanwah

Gob wrote:

For someone against CNN news, this article sure reads like a bunch of CNN news stories.. hmmm.

Natural News is an independent news source, not affiliated at all with the mainstream media.
So believe what you want, but it has nothing to do with CNN.

he still stands

Jeanwah wrote:

Gob wrote:

For someone against CNN news, this article sure reads like a bunch of CNN news stories.. hmmm.

Natural News is an independent news source, not affiliated at all with the mainstream media.
So believe what you want, but it has nothing to do with CNN.

I think it is important for me to note that I am absolutely in tune with you and Polaris as following; I fervently believe in the sustainability and protection of the Earth from all misuse and exploitation. I think we simply are using different sources of information to develop our opinions.

Jeanwah

he still stands wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Gob wrote:

For someone against CNN news, this article sure reads like a bunch of CNN news stories.. hmmm.

Natural News is an independent news source, not affiliated at all with the mainstream media.
So believe what you want, but it has nothing to do with CNN.

I think it is important for me to note that I am absolutely in tune with you and Polaris as following; I fervently believe in the sustainability and protection of the Earth from all misuse and exploitation. I think we simply are using different sources of information to develop our opinions.

:thumbup: What sources are you using, if you don't mind me asking? Because the MSM cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

he still stands

Jeanwah wrote:

:thumbup: What sources are you using, if you don't mind me asking? Because the MSM cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

I'm a science geek. Science journals are great (Scientific American, for example) and I usually have one on my coffee table. I'm careful about online research and have a pretty good understanding of "valid" source material since I have a Master's degree (it's beaten into your head). I don't give ANY time to information that is biased in either direction... even if it is biased in a direction that I agree with. I want facts based on good science and then I develop my own opinion.

brianlux

he still stands wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

:thumbup: What sources are you using, if you don't mind me asking? Because the MSM cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

I'm a science geek. Science journals are great (Scientific American, for example) and I usually have one on my coffee table. I'm careful about online research and have a pretty good understanding of "valid" source material since I have a Master's degree (it's beaten into your head). I don't give ANY time to information that is biased in either direction... even if it is biased in a direction that I agree with. I want facts based on good science and then I develop my own opinion.

Science is useful and I see science as validating all the points made in this article (see realclimate.org for example).

I think sometimes we get so wrapped up in reading things (and I'm a huge advocate of education and reading) that we forget to use our own powers of observation to draw our own conclusions. My observations of life (obeservation being a very scientific thing to do ) tell me that the main points in this article are correct and that we are in collapse. The evidence written, empirical, collected in data and intuitive are overwhelming- but, as Edward Abbey once suggested, if we'd just get out of our home once in a while and look around, we'd see what is happening.

shadowcast

megatron wrote:

i thought cell phone towers were a part of the bees?

hope i don't sound retarded.

anyways i have freeze dried lasagna so i'm good for like a week after shit hits the fan..then i eat you

Too funny. Thanks for the laugh..."then I eat you".

polaris_x

he still stands wrote:

I think it is important for me to note that I am absolutely in tune with you and Polaris as following; I fervently believe in the sustainability and protection of the Earth from all misuse and exploitation. I think we simply are using different sources of information to develop our opinions.

i know we agreed to disagree on this but just wanted to know if you've read any of raj patel's work? ... he focuses more on economic injustices but food justice and security are at the forefront of his work ... i saw him at the brooklyn food conference a few years ago ... also, over the weekend ... i had lunch with a bunch of phd grads and a professor and the topic of food justice came up ... although google doesn't really search through scientific journals - the literature is definitely out there highlighting the problems with the industrialized food system ... and that the biggest myth is that we need to grow more food ...

he still stands

polaris_x wrote:

he still stands wrote:

I think it is important for me to note that I am absolutely in tune with you and Polaris as following; I fervently believe in the sustainability and protection of the Earth from all misuse and exploitation. I think we simply are using different sources of information to develop our opinions.

i know we agreed to disagree on this but just wanted to know if you've read any of raj patel's work? ... he focuses more on economic injustices but food justice and security are at the forefront of his work ... i saw him at the brooklyn food conference a few years ago ... also, over the weekend ... i had lunch with a bunch of phd grads and a professor and the topic of food justice came up ... although google doesn't really search through scientific journals - the literature is definitely out there highlighting the problems with the industrialized food system ... and that the biggest myth is that we need to grow more food ...

I will check out Raj Patel and I'm very interested in "food justice" or food sovereignty. I would very much like to know how he handles my concerns;

do we just take land away from people who've worked it for generations? How are people to be responsible for their own food source?

By just giving people food in starving countries we've seen that the effect has been to diminish any local food production because local farmers don't have any profit potential.

food is fairly cheap and that's because of industrialized agriculture and economies of scale. Sure, it has many shortcomings, but if food is to be grown in more agrarian/localvorian ways, it is going to be even more expensive and for many people that will be less food or at least a shift to less nutritious/cheaper foods.

We live in a capitalist world... like it or not that's the reality. Are farmers to be expected to just donate their crop? What about the agriculture industry... in many states it is the #1 industry (agriculture is much more than just farmer toiling in the dirt.)

but... I'm sure that being a scholar, Raj Patel will address them.

I absolutely agree that everyone should have the same access to affordable food, just like they should have access to affordable medical care... but there is a dichotomy here between that and individual liberty (responsibility) that I'm still trying to figure out. There has to be room for individual choice, and if not - even if done with good intentions - the policy become tyrannical.

polaris_x

he still stands wrote:

I will check out Raj Patel and I'm very interested in "food justice" or food sovereignty. I would very much like to know how he handles my concerns;

do we just take land away from people who've worked it for generations? How are people to be responsible for their own food source?

By just giving people food in starving countries we've seen that the effect has been to diminish any local food production because local farmers don't have any profit potential.

food is fairly cheap and that's because of industrialized agriculture and economies of scale. Sure, it has many shortcomings, but if food is to be grown in more agrarian/localvorian ways, it is going to be even more expensive and for many people that will be less food or at least a shift to less nutritious/cheaper foods.

We live in a capitalist world... like it or not that's the reality. Are farmers to be expected to just donate their crop? What about the agriculture industry... in many states it is the #1 industry (agriculture is much more than just farmer toiling in the dirt.)

but... I'm sure that being a scholar, Raj Patel will address them.

I absolutely agree that everyone should have the same access to affordable food, just like they should have access to affordable medical care... but there is a dichotomy here between that and individual liberty (responsibility) that I'm still trying to figure out. There has to be room for individual choice, and if not - even if done with good intentions - the policy become tyrannical.

we've already taken the farms from people who have done it for generations ... the farms are now owned by big corporations ... you are a re financier for farmers ... how many are operating with debt now? ... farmers can't keep seeds, they are forced to buy products and overfertilize because the soil's nutrients are being depleted ...

there is plenty of food in this world and it's not because of industrialized agriculture ... we have to look at the entire cycle ... not just yields ... the amount of fertilizer, the runoff, the use of water and fossil fuels, etc ... the industrialized food system nets negative for everyone except the corporations who control it ...

even flow - question mark

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story ... ready.html


I wonder how long good ole Monsanto tested this out for. I stand by my first post that they do not test for long enough to know the what is going to happen, before they force their shit down farmers throats.

But on the upside, my Monsanto stock will go up with the new poison they'll come up with to get rid of the old poison. Round, round we go.

chadwick

he still stands wrote:

megatron wrote:

i thought cell phone towers were a part of the bees?

hope i don't sound retarded.

anyways i have freeze dried lasagna so i'm good for like a week after shit hits the fan..then i eat you

last thing I read was that it was a dna virus. These things happen with all types of life. The bees will be fine, I think, but I'm no expert. I also think it is silly to automatically jump to some sort of pesticide or otherwise human created problem just because at first we didn't understand what was happening.

That is a human tendency and is what I'm trying to get across here... what we don't understand we tend to create some sort of paranormal cause, or a conspiracy theory, or somehow we're getting fucked by "something omnipotent" and/or "something fucking us over." That sometimes IS the case, but most times it is not.

pesticides killed off my parent's bees they kept
this was in the late 70's or early 80's
they all turned white and turned into this crusty dusty shit that used to fly around and make honey for us

brianlux

chadwick wrote:

he still stands wrote:

megatron wrote:

i thought cell phone towers were a part of the bees?

hope i don't sound retarded.

anyways i have freeze dried lasagna so i'm good for like a week after shit hits the fan..then i eat you

last thing I read was that it was a dna virus. These things happen with all types of life. The bees will be fine, I think, but I'm no expert. I also think it is silly to automatically jump to some sort of pesticide or otherwise human created problem just because at first we didn't understand what was happening.

That is a human tendency and is what I'm trying to get across here... what we don't understand we tend to create some sort of paranormal cause, or a conspiracy theory, or somehow we're getting fucked by "something omnipotent" and/or "something fucking us over." That sometimes IS the case, but most times it is not.

pesticides killed off my parent's bees they kept
this was in the late 70's or early 80's
they all turned white and turned into this crusty dusty shit that used to fly around and make honey for us

I'm concerned about bees also, Chadwick. When I was a kid they used to be everwhere. I have seen a few more lately which is encouraging. I'm thinking the oregano we planted might be attracting them. I wonder if anyone else here has noticed which plants attract bees or have other information about bees that would be helpful?