Foreign Occupation Leads to More Terror Ron Paul

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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    First off, we need to replace "intervention" with "invitation". The U.S. didn't set up a base on the northern border of Saudi Arabia for shits and giggles.

    No U.S. invitation from Saudi Arabia for protection = Saddam Hussain in control of Kuwait and most likely Saudi Arabia.

    or

    No Iraqi invasion of Kuwait = No 9/11

    Why does no one on the left ever go back that far in history? The path is always traced until it intersects with the U.S.A. and that is where it ends.

    The US is the great infidel and the Saudi's chose the American military over Bin Laden's Mujaheddin to protect Kuwait and it burned his ass. That's right, the U.S. was invited. He was the great "holy warrior" and his offer was spurned by the Saudis. He then turned his fuck-up ideology and focused it on the mighty Satan, the U.S.A., up to the point until Navy Seals made an unplanned visit.

    But let it be clear, the U.S. base that was built upon a pile of sand. It is not the "holy lands". Someone who is nuts may interpret that sand to be sacred, but that's what brain-washed people do. That is, unless oil reservoirs are considered holy and sacred.

    i honestly don't know where to start ... if you think iraq would have invaded saudi arabia and that the US military bases in saudi arabia were for the protection of the saudis (where most of the attackers from 9/11 were from) ... i'm not sure what to say ...
  • fife
    fife Posts: 3,327
    polaris_x wrote:
    fife wrote:
    so you believe that just because he said something he was telling the truth. if i was trying to create an army to follow me i might say things that i know people will fall in line for.

    confession doesn't mean truth as we learned from the WM3

    this wasn't a coerced confession ... why do you think al qaeda was formed? ... why does someone born richer than you and i can remember devote his life to a cause? ...

    no that true it was not a coerced confession but the statement can be used as recruiting material. Osama was not a dumb guy, he understood the power of words and of the "us and them"

    as for the rich question, i can't answer and in reality no one can
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    polaris_x wrote:
    this wasn't a coerced confession ... why do you think al qaeda was formed? ... why does someone born richer than you and i can remember devote his life to a cause? ...
    Q: Why did Patty Hearst start robbing banks?

    A: She was brain washed.

    Q: Why die Osama Bin Ladin start a holy war?

    A: He was brain washed.
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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    enuf with the left right thing ... it's not really a partisan issue to discuss history ... and in case you hadn't noticed ... this thread is based on a Ron Paul opinion ... and he is far from the left ...

    US intervention in saudi arabia goes well back before iraq/kuwait war ... i suggest YOU go further back ...
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    fife wrote:
    no that true it was not a coerced confession but the statement can be used as recruiting material. Osama was not a dumb guy, he understood the power of words and of the "us and them"

    as for the rich question, i can't answer and in reality no one can

    so .. why do you not believe him when he says his motive!?? ... does he have a history of lying?

    do you not believe that israel's oppression of the palestinians only happens because the US allows it? ...

    so ... instead of taking his reasoning at face value ... you want to believe that it has to be something else?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    Q: Why did Patty Hearst start robbing banks?

    A: She was brain washed.

    Q: Why die Osama Bin Ladin start a holy war?

    A: He was brain washed.

    who was osama brainwashed by? ... who kidnapped him and made him hate the US? ...

    i'll ask you this too - if you don't want to believe his reasons ... then what are they?

    take any terrorist/revolutionary group out there ... at the root of it all is some form of oppression ...
  • fife
    fife Posts: 3,327
    polaris_x wrote:
    fife wrote:
    no that true it was not a coerced confession but the statement can be used as recruiting material. Osama was not a dumb guy, he understood the power of words and of the "us and them"

    as for the rich question, i can't answer and in reality no one can

    so .. why do you not believe him when he says his motive!?? ... does he have a history of lying?

    do you not believe that israel's oppression of the palestinians only happens because the US allows it? ...

    so ... instead of taking his reasoning at face value ... you want to believe that it has to be something else?

    the reason is that i see him using his motive to get followers. Osama for me is like a politician who will say what he needs to say to get followers. like you mentioned before the US has been intervening with the saudis for a very long time, why did osama not have a problem taking the weapons from the Americans when he was fighting the Russians?

    as for the 2nd questions, don't know if that fits the topic. but i will say no i don't think its only because of US. Isreal i think would still be doing it just like many other countries who are doing it.

    for the 3rd questions. i do believe that osama followers believe the reason but i have doubts if he does.
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    polaris_x wrote:
    i honestly don't know where to start ... if you think iraq would have invaded saudi arabia and that the US military bases in saudi arabia were for the protection of the saudis (where most of the attackers from 9/11 were from) ... i'm not sure what to say ...
    The whole thing was based on oil. From an Iraqi perspective. From a Saudi perspective. From a Kuwaiti perspective. And from a U.S. perspective. One group took it as a religious perspective, and now here we are.

    Why do you see it only as a U.S. perspective and everyone else involved is innocent? Why do you trace every bad thing in the world back to the U.S. and never go after the other assholes in the world? I can admit the the second Iraq invasion was a bad decision but that doesn't mean that everything is black and white.

    And why don't you think the Saudi kingdom didn't fear Iraq? Iraq had a madman dictator, the 4th largest army in the entire world with over a 1,000,000 soldiers, and no one in the region was capable of stopping them from taking over the oil reserves.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Unconditional U.S support of Israel would do a lot to stop terrorist attacks against the U.S.

    The U.S government is about to use it's power of automatic veto at the U.N once again to protect Israel's ongoing race war and occupation.

    So you can now expect more terrorist attacks aimed at U.S targets across the World.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    fife wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    fife wrote:
    no that true it was not a coerced confession but the statement can be used as recruiting material. Osama was not a dumb guy, he understood the power of words and of the "us and them"

    as for the rich question, i can't answer and in reality no one can

    so .. why do you not believe him when he says his motive!?? ... does he have a history of lying?

    do you not believe that israel's oppression of the palestinians only happens because the US allows it? ...

    so ... instead of taking his reasoning at face value ... you want to believe that it has to be something else?

    the reason is that i see him using his motive to get followers. Osama for me is like a politician who will say what he needs to say to get followers. like you mentioned before the US has been intervening with the saudis for a very long time, why did osama not have a problem taking the weapons from the Americans when he was fighting the Russians?

    as for the 2nd questions, don't know if that fits the topic. but i will say no i don't think its only because of US. Isreal i think would still be doing it just like many other countries who are doing it.

    for the 3rd questions. i do believe that osama followers believe the reason but i have doubts if he does.

    i believe its called propaganda. you say what needs to be said to further your cause. whether you believe it or not is iirrelevant.


    how different the israel/palestinian dynamic would be if the US had unconditionally supported the palestinian people like they do israel..
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  • brandon10
    brandon10 Posts: 1,114
    Jason P wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    i honestly don't know where to start ... if you think iraq would have invaded saudi arabia and that the US military bases in saudi arabia were for the protection of the saudis (where most of the attackers from 9/11 were from) ... i'm not sure what to say ...
    The whole thing was based on oil. From an Iraqi perspective. From a Saudi perspective. From a Kuwaiti perspective. And from a U.S. perspective. One group took it as a religious perspective, and now here we are.

    Why do you see it only as a U.S. perspective and everyone else involved is innocent? Why do you trace every bad thing in the world back to the U.S. and never go after the other assholes in the world? I can admit the the second Iraq invasion was a bad decision but that doesn't mean that everything is black and white.

    And why don't you think the Saudi kingdom didn't fear Iraq? Iraq had a madman dictator, the 4th largest army in the entire world with over a 1,000,000 soldiers, and no one in the region was capable of stopping them from taking over the oil reserves.

    Jason, you are almost getting to the heart of the matter here. Would 9/11 ever had happened if the U.S. never took sides between places like Saudi Arabia and Iraq? Or between Iraq and Iran? Or between Gaddafi and his people? Or between Israel and Palestine. Countries like Sweden and New Zealand don't get involved in these fights. And they don't get attacked by Muslims either. But those countries have just as much freedom as Americans.

    Do I think it's possible that a complete change in foreign policy will end all terrorism against the U.S.? I really don't know. There are some really messed up Muslim extremists. But it would go a long way in getting more of the Muslim population on our side. And that would certainly slow down recruitment of terrorists. So really, it's a win-win situation. We save a ton of money getting troops home and we slow down terrorist recruitment at the same time.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    The whole thing was based on oil. From an Iraqi perspective. From a Saudi perspective. From a Kuwaiti perspective. And from a U.S. perspective. One group took it as a religious perspective, and now here we are.

    Why do you see it only as a U.S. perspective and everyone else involved is innocent? Why do you trace every bad thing in the world back to the U.S. and never go after the other assholes in the world? I can admit the the second Iraq invasion was a bad decision but that doesn't mean that everything is black and white.

    And why don't you think the Saudi kingdom didn't fear Iraq? Iraq had a madman dictator, the 4th largest army in the entire world with over a 1,000,000 soldiers, and no one in the region was capable of stopping them from taking over the oil reserves.

    first of all - you need to stop thinking you know what i believe ... just because i'm critical of the US and its actions doesn't mean they are the only bad guys ... stop being so defensive about critical issues involving americans ... it is the primary reason why the second invasion of iraq happened ... too many americans refuse to believe what is so evidently in front of their faces that it allows more bad things to happen ...

    honestly, you really need to look at the history of iraq ... i know its easy for americans to believe saddam was a madman dictator and then start on some theory that he was going to take over the middle east ... seriously, no historian or expert in the region is going to corroborate your theory here ...

    listen to dr. paul here ... we've been beating this to death for years on this board ...

    look at the history of US foreign policy and the things that have been done in the name of america ... if you don't acknowledge the consequences of those actions - you will never be able to fix it ...

    i'm still waiting to hear what you and anyone else's theory is as to why an educated rich man like osama bin laden would start and lead an organization to fight american interests? ... clearly he had no interest of taking over saudi arabia or afghanistan - so, it couldn't be for power ... what is it if you don't want to believe what he says?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    fife wrote:
    the reason is that i see him using his motive to get followers. Osama for me is like a politician who will say what he needs to say to get followers. like you mentioned before the US has been intervening with the saudis for a very long time, why did osama not have a problem taking the weapons from the Americans when he was fighting the Russians?

    as for the 2nd questions, don't know if that fits the topic. but i will say no i don't think its only because of US. Isreal i think would still be doing it just like many other countries who are doing it.

    for the 3rd questions. i do believe that osama followers believe the reason but i have doubts if he does.

    followers of what? ... so, osama was hell bent on the destruction of american for what reason? ...
  • fife
    fife Posts: 3,327
    polaris_x wrote:
    fife wrote:
    the reason is that i see him using his motive to get followers. Osama for me is like a politician who will say what he needs to say to get followers. like you mentioned before the US has been intervening with the saudis for a very long time, why did osama not have a problem taking the weapons from the Americans when he was fighting the Russians?

    as for the 2nd questions, don't know if that fits the topic. but i will say no i don't think its only because of US. Isreal i think would still be doing it just like many other countries who are doing it.

    for the 3rd questions. i do believe that osama followers believe the reason but i have doubts if he does.

    followers of what? ... so, osama was hell bent on the destruction of american for what reason? ...

    Again i as everyone else here doesn't know the reason. he could have done it because he was pissed off that Americans was on Saudi land, it could be that he was just an angry guy , he could could just have an egotistical mind and wanted to go down in history as the man who hit America the hardest.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    polaris_x wrote:
    fife wrote:
    the reason is that i see him using his motive to get followers. Osama for me is like a politician who will say what he needs to say to get followers. like you mentioned before the US has been intervening with the saudis for a very long time, why did osama not have a problem taking the weapons from the Americans when he was fighting the Russians?

    as for the 2nd questions, don't know if that fits the topic. but i will say no i don't think its only because of US. Isreal i think would still be doing it just like many other countries who are doing it.

    for the 3rd questions. i do believe that osama followers believe the reason but i have doubts if he does.

    followers of what? ... so, osama was hell bent on the destruction of american for what reason? ...

    because he was a mental waste basket absorbed with delusions of power and control....?kind of like hitler ?

    Godfather.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Godfather. wrote:
    because he was a mental waste basket absorbed with delusions of power and control....?kind of like hitler ?

    Godfather.

    Anyone who attacks America is either just a psycho mental case, or is simply jealous of your 'freedoms', right?

    Of course U.S foreign policy has nothing to do with it.
  • fife
    fife Posts: 3,327
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    because he was a mental waste basket absorbed with delusions of power and control....?kind of like hitler ?

    Godfather.

    Anyone who attacks America is either just a psycho mental case, or is simply jealous of your 'freedoms', right?

    Of course U.S foreign policy has nothing to do with it.

    no, but it doesn't exclude it either.
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Why don't we all look at it this way...we have tried interventionism in the middle east for decades...and here we are...does anyone feel safer? so why not try something new?

    Let's start looking at this a little more pragmatically. It doesn't matter who caused what...the fact is we are the target of attacks by groups around the world and whether their perception of our Government/military action over the last 50+ years is correct or not doesn't matter...it is how they feel. Why give them the opportunity to continue that line of education on their youth?

    If we want to consider ourselves a world leader, why don't we act like one and stop the violence, at least stop our involvement in it...if it continues against us then the whole world will know we are not the problem...if it does stop than the entire world is a better place for it. Hatfields and McCoys are great stories, but that type of familial, generational revenge should have no outlet in world politics, so why continue what we know isn't working?

    It isn't about who is at fault, but more about who is willing to make tough choices to move on from the constant warfare state we are in...
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
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  • fife
    fife Posts: 3,327
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    Why don't we all look at it this way...we have tried interventionism in the middle east for decades...and here we are...does anyone feel safer? so why not try something new?

    Let's start looking at this a little more pragmatically. It doesn't matter who caused what...the fact is we are the target of attacks by groups around the world and whether their perception of our Government/military action over the last 50+ years is correct or not doesn't matter...it is how they feel. Why give them the opportunity to continue that line of education on their youth?

    If we want to consider ourselves a world leader, why don't we act like one and stop the violence, at least stop our involvement in it...if it continues against us then the whole world will know we are not the problem...if it does stop than the entire world is a better place for it. Hatfields and McCoys are great stories, but that type of familial, generational revenge should have no outlet in world politics, so why continue what we know isn't working?

    It isn't about who is at fault, but more about who is willing to make tough choices to move on from the constant warfare state we are in...

    great post!
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    because he was a mental waste basket absorbed with delusions of power and control....?kind of like hitler ?

    Godfather.

    Anyone who attacks America is either just a psycho mental case, or is simply jealous of your 'freedoms', right?

    Of course U.S foreign policy has nothing to do with it.

    :thumbup: hayyyyy ! now your catching on bro. :lol:

    Godfather.

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