Foreign Occupation Leads to More Terror Ron Paul

VINNY GOOMBA

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

unsung wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

do you think the US just had an idea to send troops to a country and start blasting for the hell of it ?


Godfather.

Yeah. We did that in Iraq. We also did that in Libya. Neither attacked us.

don't forget the false gulf of tonken incident that made us escalate in vietnam..

^ That right there really needs to be made public knowledge as quickly as possible.

BinauralJam

polaris_x wrote:

maybe we should all read zinn's a people's history of the united states?

I couldn't finish that book, just depressed the fuck out of me. Opening chapter had my jaw on the floor.

tybird

Jason P wrote:

If Taliban tactics didn't change somewhere in 2005, then I would be interested to see what caused the influx.

It also appears that most of the attacks are not on U.S. troops, but civilians. How are you compelling modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory when you blow up a hospital or mosque? Do the Pakistani people blame the U.S. when the Taliban shoot up a school bus with children on it as happened today? (http://news.yahoo.com/gunmen-attack-school-bus-pakistan-3-dead-090044650.html) Are the Sunni's and Shite's murdering each other to protest U.S. diplomacy?

Perhaps once the terror attacks were used for nationalism, but my opinion now links them to ideology.

They aren't really "terror" attacks if you commit them against armed forces. If you are an under-manned, under-armed, low-tech insurgent force then you don't have much chance to "terrorize" opposing high-tech, well-manned and heavily armed forces. You have to strike "terror" into civilian populations.

Another question...how do separate religious ideology and nationalism when the goal is a nation ruled by said religion?

tybird

BinauralJam wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

maybe we should all read zinn's a people's history of the united states?

I couldn't finish that book, just depressed the fuck out of me. Opening chapter had my jaw on the floor.

There is a graphic novel version of the book now available that might make for easier/quicker reading. Good stuff, eh.

brianlux

BinauralJam wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

maybe we should all read zinn's a people's history of the united states?

I couldn't finish that book, just depressed the fuck out of me. Opening chapter had my jaw on the floor.

It was a tough read alright and but well worth the effort. And polaris_x, it seems like in my business ten time a day I hear people say "you should read this book!", but in this case, that really is a good suggestion!

I only read Mr. Paul's comments for the first time today and didn't realize at first it was his words and I must say, very impressive and, I believe, (no offense or disrespect intended) very well timed.

gimmesometruth27

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

don't forget the false gulf of tonken incident that made us escalate in vietnam..

^ That right there really needs to be made public knowledge as quickly as possible.

of course i spelled it wrong... it is gulf of tonkin

:oops:

the gulf of tonkin "incident", as false as it was, is a prime example of us foreign policy manipulations gone terribly terribly wrong. we lost a whole generation of young men based on a lie. just like what is happening today. people don't realize it, but those that don't remember the past are going to repeat it, and we are repeating it right now. our society is so docile that even if they knew the gulf of tonkin incident was a lie, and even if they knew we were lied into iraq, they wouldn't give a shit as long as we still had our "freedom", our wal mart, and out shitty reality tv call in competitions...we are horribly misinformed as a populace. i don't know what bothers me more, the fact that we are lied to, or the fact that most people don't give a shit.

Cosmo

I have long said that we are not hated for who we are... we are hated for WHAT WE DO.
If we would quit meddling in the domestic affairs of Middle Eastern countries and just bought the damn oil, there would never have been a September 11th, 2001. We support oppressive regimes run by ruthless dictators in order to come out with what is in America's best interests.
Problem being, the definition of America's best interests is really American coropration's best interests... not the American people. We don't account for shit in the eyes of our foriegn policy makers because the big bucks come from those companies that will benefit from deals with shady oil shieks and dictators.
...
and all you have to do is think a little bit and apply some simple logic...
Do you really think that Usama Bin Laden sat around and said, "You know what? Fuck America and the freedoms afforded them by their fucking Bill of Rights! I hate that! Let's fly some airliners into their office buildings and kill them!".
Or... did he hate the way our government bought off and slept with asshole Arab leaders... who used weapons obtained by shady arms for oil deals to oppress their people? He wants American influence out of the Middle East. Bin Laden is not alone in this thinking. We really need to re-think and re-tool our foriegn policy. The more we show a great presence over there... the more they will try to reach out and touch us.... over here.
...
Just buy their fucking oil and say, 'Thanx a lot, assholes'... like the Chinese and Japaneses do.

Cosmo

Godfather. wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

maybe we should all read zinn's a people's history of the united states?

I've read a zinn's book titled motorcycle repair ..or something like that but it was back in the late 80's I can't remember a thing.

Godfather.

...
'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'... nothing to do with Howard Zinn.
...
And from what I can best figure... no, you probably didn't get anything from that book.

tybird

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Yeah. We did that in Iraq. We also did that in Libya. Neither attacked us.

don't forget the false gulf of tonken incident that made us escalate in vietnam..[/quote]
or the U.S.S. Maine which lead to the Spanish-American War...probably just a boiler explosion...that got us Cuba and the Philippines...is it a habit or an addiction?

gimmesometruth27

tybird wrote:

...is it a habit or an addiction?

i think it is just a way of life and an elitist mentality that we are superior to everyone else and the rest of the world should bend over for what america wants. this has been going on for generations. it did not start with us, but we do not have to carry on that tradition and that way of going about things.

how many assassinations have been carried out on our behalf under the guise of a heart attack? how many elections have we rigged in other countries? how many unethical deals have we made to advance our agenda at the expense of citizens of other countries?

the thing that shits me about this thread is ron paul tried to tell these people why we are in the situation that we are in and the audience was too arrogant or too stupid to hear him out. they scoffed at him. just like fox news did in 2004 by not letting him get his say in a debate...

Cosmo

tybird wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Yeah. We did that in Iraq. We also did that in Libya. Neither attacked us.
don't forget the false gulf of tonken incident that made us escalate in vietnam..

or the U.S.S. Maine which lead to the Spanish-American War...probably just a boiler explosion...that got us Cuba and the Philippines...is it a habit or an addiction?

...
Our past foriegn policy mistakes include supporting the Shah Of Iran, which lead to the Islamic Revolution and the rise of Ayatollah Khomeini and the current state of Iran. We supported Saddam Hussein and turned a blind eye to his brutality until he tried to take our oil that sits under our Kuwait.
Our current foriegn policy fuck ups... posting up Al Maliki in Iraq. My best guess... he will partner up with Muqtada Al Sadr after we leave. This will allow the formation of an Iran/Iraq Shi'ite bloc.
The other fuck up... the former Opium Warlord in charge of Afghanistan. Look only for bad shit after we flee from that place.

catefrances

its quite simple really... you fuck with people they will fuck you back if and when they can. this shouldnt be a surprise unless your arrogant. it also keeps you looking over your shoulder.. which is no way to live.

VINNY GOOMBA

double post.

VINNY GOOMBA

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

the thing that shits me about this thread is ron paul tried to tell these people why we are in the situation that we are in and the audience was too arrogant or too stupid to hear him out. they scoffed at him. just like fox news did in 2004 by not letting him get his say in a debate...

Well, there is a silver lining in all of this. Ron speaking about the need to end all of the foreign entanglements and get out of the middle east and other places around the world earned him some serious good applause. It was only after Santorum tried to use the old "Ron Paul blames America" tactic that the boos came in. A lot of party-line Republicans ARE starting to shift towards Paul on foreign policy because they are starting to see that it costs too much. Combine that with everyday partisanship (Republicans wanting to oppose Obama on everything) and you have a growing opposition to the militarism on the right for a change. However, very few want to be completely honest about the reasons WHY they hate us. I do believe this is essential to maintain peace, but for now, let's just bring the troops home as quickly as possible and focus on the history lessons behind it later. I do not like any of the other candidates all that much, since I simply do not believe them, but they are, at least in terms of their rhetoric much LESS hawkish than the 2008 bunch.

It is funny to hear the other candidates talk about their problems with The Fed, and even mention "sound money" It was also no surprise to see CNN deliberately skip Dr. Paul when asking the candidates about the Fed the other night-- I'm sure he was frothing at the mouth waiting to answer. No one was talking about any of these things 6 months ago, but Paul has been talking about them for 30 years. They really are trying to steal his thunder and his ideas and won't follow through on a single one of them.

If I had to pick someone else other than Paul, it would be Gary Johnson-- who was AGAIN excluded from the debate, who also has a true libertarian viewpoint and is 10 times more pollished and "politician" than Paul... Sadly, this dilutes a truly popular libertarian element that could dominate that stage.

tybird

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

tybird wrote:

...is it a habit or an addiction?

i think it is just a way of life and an elitist mentality that we are superior to everyone else and the rest of the world should bend over for what america wants. this has been going on for generations. it did not start with us, but we do not have to carry on that tradition and that way of going about things.

how many assassinations have been carried out on our behalf under the guise of a heart attack? how many elections have we rigged in other countries? how many unethical deals have we made to advance our agenda at the expense of citizens of other countries?

the thing that shits me about this thread is ron paul tried to tell these people why we are in the situation that we are in and the audience was too arrogant or too stupid to hear him out. they scoffed at him. just like fox news did in 2004 by not letting him get his say in a debate...

Elitist, yes....I like that.....can't build an empire without some kind of attitude. That's what the U.S. has done or is trying to do.....replicate Victorian Britain without the formality of colonies.

People don't want to hear that we are fucking around with other countries in our mad attempt to make that extra nickel on the dollar....American businesses are Manifest Destiny in most people's eyes.

Byrnzie

Godfather. wrote:

I don't watch the doc's because it's to sad to re-live
and you're right "You've got the entire internet filled with conspiracy theories " the key word is "threories"
and this place is full of finger pointers with just an idea or because some clown types it up on the internet and most of the people on here that just love a good conspiracy play right into it and of all time ...now ?
what a bunch of bullshit , nobody here cares to talk about the tragedy that Americans suffered on 9/11 or anyother tragedy that happened in America but only how it is some how Americas fault like saying "hay it's alright cause we had it coming"....bullshit !!!!!!


Godfather.

9/11 Wasn't Year Zero. You hadn't just spent the past 50 years skipping around the globe handing out daisies to everyone.

Godfather.

Byrnzie wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I don't watch the doc's because it's to sad to re-live
and you're right "You've got the entire internet filled with conspiracy theories " the key word is "threories"
and this place is full of finger pointers with just an idea or because some clown types it up on the internet and most of the people on here that just love a good conspiracy play right into it and of all time ...now ?
what a bunch of bullshit , nobody here cares to talk about the tragedy that Americans suffered on 9/11 or anyother tragedy that happened in America but only how it is some how Americas fault like saying "hay it's alright cause we had it coming"....bullshit !!!!!!


Godfather.

9/11 Wasn't Year Zero. You hadn't just spent the past 50 years skipping around the globe handing out daisies to everyone.

what the hell are you talking about ?..some of the thing's I've seen and done would scare the fuck out of you
infact you'd still be sitting in a corner druling all over your self and babbling uncontrolably in infant toung

Godfather.

Godfather.

brandon10 wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

unsung wrote:

Do you think there would be sleeper cells in the US if there were no troops anywhere but the US?

all these countries you talk about ASK the US for help in some form or another...me personally I'd tell them to piss up a rope and let them continue to kill each other,do you think the US just had an idea to send troops to a country and start blasting for the hell of it ? this is what I mean when I say all you people do is dig enough to call faul on the US ..you not so much if any at I all for the most part but the rest of these screaming ...train people just keep finding something to blame on the US and on this week of 9/11 I have just read enough of the whinnie ass pusssy bullshit and called on it. and please don't try and bate me with questions like this because you know as well as I do that there are answers on both ends of the questions of why.

but anyway yes I do think there would be sleepers here troops over seas or not.


Godfather.

NONE of these countries ask for your fucking help. If you keep sticking your nose in someones ass...eventually they are going to fart. How's the smell?

did your mother have any children without brain damage ?


Godfather.

Jason P

tybird wrote:

Jason P wrote:

If Taliban tactics didn't change somewhere in 2005, then I would be interested to see what caused the influx.

It also appears that most of the attacks are not on U.S. troops, but civilians. How are you compelling modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory when you blow up a hospital or mosque? Do the Pakistani people blame the U.S. when the Taliban shoot up a school bus with children on it as happened today? (http://news.yahoo.com/gunmen-attack-school-bus-pakistan-3-dead-090044650.html) Are the Sunni's and Shite's murdering each other to protest U.S. diplomacy?

Perhaps once the terror attacks were used for nationalism, but my opinion now links them to ideology.

They aren't really "terror" attacks if you commit them against armed forces. If you are an under-manned, under-armed, low-tech insurgent force then you don't have much chance to "terrorize" opposing high-tech, well-manned and heavily armed forces. You have to strike "terror" into civilian populations.

Another question...how do separate religious ideology and nationalism when the goal is a nation ruled by said religion?

I need you to clarify ... are you saying that striking terror into civilians is acceptable if you can't match forces with a military power or are you saying that in order for it to be a terror attack, it has to be unleashed upon civilians?

Godfather.

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Godfather,

You need to make a separation between "America" (as in the good people of America) from the assholes that are in charge of the land mass that we call the United States. You are taking criticism of foreign interventionism by the military industrial complex as something personal. It isn't. It's not a dig on you and your family, your neighbors and friends, nor the people you don't even know. It is a very warranted criticism of people and corporations who revel at the very prospect at profitting off of war. War is a VERY profitable enterprise for lots of people - weapons are manufactured, armor, planes, tanks, food supplies, medical care, re-building the infrastructure of ENTIRE nations, oil pipelines, and competition for who gets to provide these types of services are MINIMALIZED, if competition exists at all. Imagine being able to have the opportunity to bid on guaranteed work with no viable competition bidding against you? That's what is called a "no-bid contract," and they are constantly abused. It's a cash cow, and it runs rampant overseas, away from the public eye during and after wars, and are a complete drain on the American citizenry. Because of all of this, do you not think it is not only possible, but likely that certain companies are more than anxious for our country to always maintain an overseas presence and always be at war? The best way to ramp up support for war is to falsely dress it up as patriotism. But just because it's wrapped in a flag, does that make it "American?" or patriotic? Not in my eyes. It's almost similar to how the KKK brandishes a cross for their symbol, but they are anything but truly "Christian."

Do some countries ask for our help? Sure. Do some of them have some serious issues with horrible dictators? Absolutely. But, as an American who is particularly proud of his country, you should understand that the United States has no business policing the world, and has no authority Constitutional or otherwise to do so.

Thanx Vinny,

Godfather.