Capitalism and the future..
LikeAnOcean
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Is it wrong for me to think that with advancements in technology that capitalism is becoming obsolete?
Basically, technology has been replacing people for some time. Hypothetically speaking, lets say robots and computers do all of our work for us in a number of years. Will we eventually have a very few, very rich in control, handing out just enough to keep the rest of the population dumbed down and from rebeling?
Because of advancements, goods have become very cheap, but its only people who make it into specialized jobs who can enjoy the luxuries of life.
Of course, capitalism creates competition, which makes all of these advancements possible, but at what point does capitalism not work anymore and how much technology do we really need?
Thoughts?
Basically, technology has been replacing people for some time. Hypothetically speaking, lets say robots and computers do all of our work for us in a number of years. Will we eventually have a very few, very rich in control, handing out just enough to keep the rest of the population dumbed down and from rebeling?
Because of advancements, goods have become very cheap, but its only people who make it into specialized jobs who can enjoy the luxuries of life.
Of course, capitalism creates competition, which makes all of these advancements possible, but at what point does capitalism not work anymore and how much technology do we really need?
Thoughts?
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It is the contention of near-future theorists (including Bill McKibben, Richard Heinberg, James Howard Kunstler and others) that peak oil will lead to a reduction in our ability to maintain the kind of machine-driven world we have lived in during the unique and, in terms of human history, very short blip in time know as the industrial age. These and others knowledgable writer/thikers believe that at this point in time we have no cheap alternative energy to replace oil- other than, perhaps coal, the use of which is further increasing global warming and ruining the environment in parts of North America and only delays the inevitable shortage of cheap energy. In talking about technology, it is important to remember that our technologies including use of plastics is almost completely dependent on oil and the list of things we use oil for is astounding (see here for example: http://www.endoil.org/site/c.ddJGKNNnFm ... of_Oil.htm)
Corn ethanol, solar power and other alternative are helpful but will not replace oil as an energy source because they both have too low an "energy return on investment" (EROI). The EROI of the easy to reach oil (which is basically gone) is 20:1, tar sand oil about 5.2:1 and corn ethanol at best 1:1 (no net gain in energy).
The question, "How much technology do we really need is" is covered in at least two excellent books I highly recommend:
McKibben,Bill: Enough, TImes books, 2003
Heinberg, Richard: Peak EverythingNew Society Publishers, 2007
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
:think:
Hmm .... which is more realistic .... hoverboards in 2015 or the Cubs winning the World Series in 2015 ...
Capitalism stops working the minute all of our resources are gone. And we're on our way in that direction, for sure!
Ever see Bill Hicks talk about people in advertising and marketing? He said they had no consciences, that to make a living by putting a dollar on everything is the worse possible thing, ever. Creating technology goes hand in hand with selling the technology so I think he's right (esp. since after majoring in marketing and eventually learning how it is a tool to manipulate, and nothing else). So how much technology do we need? Ask yourself how much YOU need, because selling the public into "needing" more technology is nothing more than a scam.
Great answer, Jeanwah- especially because it answers Gob's excellent question precisely.
Wow, and also another excellent question! "How much do YOU need?" When he was still a kid, a nephew of mine once told me he needed a new game. We had an intersting talk about need vs want. With "need" we didn't stop at food, clothing and shelter alone- I think we talked about needing things that allow us to be creative as well. Be eventually "need" stopped short of a new game.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Well, I guess we can say that we don't need any technology. That being said, it has made saving lives possible, travel around the globe easily done, the sharing of information in a seconds notice, etc etc etc...
free market capitalism is one of the things that has created a world in which the life expectancy is high, infant mortality is low, and living is relatively easy.
What do you think replaces it?
Even with Peak oil as a concern, if there is private profit to be had, someone will figure out how to power what we have or at the very least substitute what we have now. Speaking in general terms, the free market will identify and capitalize on a demand and provide the goods/services necessary to meet the needs of the people demanding the technology/service/idea.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
developing new technologies that people want and/or need creates jobs and spurs the economy.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
It's funny, my sisters pick on me, because I'm not interested in ipads, iphones, kindles, etc. I keep telling them that I don't need them, they're a waste of money to me, but they keep telling me that I'm refusing to get with the times. Meanwhile, my sisters are a marketer's wet dream: chronic consumers.
And to tie it all back to PJ20 - John Doe sang this one:
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/ ... h-20110609
thats the way capitalism works jeanwah.. by getting us to buy shit we dont need.. and buying a lot of it and doing so constantly. but i really dont get it when the companies become so big they decide to take their manufacturing off shore purely to increase their profit.how is this good for your country or mine? and then they tell us they provide cheap goods(which is apparently what we all want) and that nicely dovetails into our constant and unending desire to accumulate crap... whch keeps them producing the crap. and around and around we go. dizzy yet???
take a good look
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It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
what do you suggest? are we to stop using electricty and go back to growing and killing our own food (oh wait we can't kill or breed animals that's cruel as well to your kind right)? of course we need to find better and more environmentally-friendly alternatives, no one is arguing against that, but technology doesn't have to be evil or harmful.
i think he is just saying that the model is fucked up and that trying to go back to times before is not a good thing ...
we, in north america, live in a world of excess and waste ... you can't have an economic model that rewards excessive consumption and waste ... the model has to include some form of sustainability ... not only environmentally but fiscally as well ... right now, we only ever factor the economic costs but never the social consequences ...
the whole thing needs to be blown up and the priorities have to be reset
Where in any of my posts have I ever said anything one way or another about how we should or should not kill or breed animals? Why are you making assumptions about me that are unfounded? And what do you mean by "your kind"? What kind is that?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
1st off my bad on the comment about 'your kind' - i assumed that you are one of those pretty much against everything. i apologize for taking that leap.
as for assuming killing off animals i would assume somone who is against over consumption of natural resources would also be against the killing off and extinction of animals - not that far of a leap to say that is it?
and you threw out about us possibly running out of natural resources but you've offered no solutions for how to stop that process. as i said in my previous post what do you suggest we do?
No, I’m not against everything but I am against doing harmful things when they can be avoided and I am in favor of doing what makes sense. Making our planet uninhabitable for humans and large fauna doesn’t make sense.
I’m not a vegan or totally vegetarian so it would be ludicrous for me to make any statement about being against killing and eating animals. I’ve never said anything like that. On the other hand I am very opposed to animal cruelty- there is no excuse for it. I don’t eat meat very often- very rarely large animal meat because in a world approaching 7 billion people, large animals are too high on the food chain. Fish is a much healthier choice of meat but because of all I’ve read about ocean fish depletion I’ve stopped eating sea food. So that mainly leaves, for me any way, poultry, eggs and goat cheese and these I eat in small quantities from free range sources (both for humane and health reasons).
I don’t tell people what they should eat or do- I just make suggestions and try to set a good and sensible example.
As for what I think we can do to stop the process of natural resource depletion, I have made many suggestions on numerous occasions on this forum but to recap, here are my suggestions:
1. NUMBER ONE: slow down the human breeding process. The world’s population is approx. 6.775 billion and rising quickly. This is a complex and critical subject and yet one that gets surprisingly little press or public attention.
2. Number two is the one no one wants to hear and that is- use less, live more simply. This isn’t as bad as it sounds. There have been many studies showing that people in highly developed technological societies who use so many “time saving” devices have less time to relax and are less happy and satisfied than people who live more simply.
3. Work towards sustainability. This is one of those terms that has been softened and misused and misunderstood to a huge degree. Sustainability in a world of 6.775 billion people is very likely impossible but that doesn’t mean we can’t at least try to aim for sustainability. This means
a. Using less, especially of things we don’t need.
b. Use things that are durable- things built to last a long time.
c. As much as possible, shop for and use things that are produced locally.
d. Reuse and recycle goods whenever reasonable to do so.
e. Share what you have, especially durable tools and such.
4. Reduce energy consumption. Starting with our cars, most of us could all better as far as combining driving trips, share riding, living closer to our place of work, keeping our cars tuned, tires inflated properly and so forth. And there are many, many other ways to reduce energy consumption such as turning off and unplugging electrical goods when not in use. TV’s left plugged in while gone for extended periods of time suck up all kinds of energy. I keep mine on a power strip and flip the switch off every time it’s not in use. Power converters for cell phone, digital cameras etc eat up huge amounts of energy. When the charging is done, unplug it. Also, I’m a big advocate of walkable communities and improving our rail systems. Trains use less energy per cargo/passenger mile than cars, trucks, planes and boats.
5. Eat lower on the food chain. For the very large majority of us, there is no reason to eat large quantities of meat protein. Fast foods are especially draining to natural resources because most of the food is imported from poor countries whose ecosystems are being ruined and the food is shipped long distances using yet more resources and causing further pollution.
6. Do more to make your world by hand. Home made cookies use far less energy and waste far less packaging than store bought and taste much better. Make your own entertainment. Instead of driving somewhere every weekend, take up a musical instrument, learn to paint, get to know your neighbors.
I hope that my answer here does not come across as being condescending in any way. I’m the first to admit I’m not perfect. My life is not 100% sustainable. I do the best I can and then see if I can do a little better yet. I drive a car. It took 39,090 gallons of water to make that car. But it gets 45 MPG (yeah, I know, lucky me, but I didn’t buy my first new car until two years ago when I was 58 years old and this should be the last car I ever own), I try to minimize my driving and my last car lasted 35 years and over 300,000 miles (and it still runs quite well- I gave it to my nephew). I’m typing this on a lap top, but I’ve had this computer 10 years and it still works just fine. I try to make things last.
None of us are perfect, the damage is done, the world won’t last forever and neither will the human race, but if we all try to make a difference it will remain hospitable to us for more rather than less time.
I’m sorry this post is so long, pjhawks. I hope you’re not sorry you asked! ;-)
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
brianlux - awesome post and great answers. good to see intelligent thought out answers. seems many spew 'slogans' without real world answers. so you have nothing to apologize about the length of your post. well done, for real.
as for your answers a few i do agree with actually. the overpopulation one is definitely an issue but don't really see any real world solution to that or at least one that any civilized country will allow.
i agree about unplugging things. now i do it mostly because i'm just weird and don't trust appliances and electrical outlets but i don't leave many things plugged in at all. pretty much just a tv and computer i leave in.
also definitely 100% agree about the use of cars and transportion issues. even though i'm a total hypocrite about the driving since i pretty much drive everywhere. sadly if we leave this up to individuals nothing will change in my opinion since many americans especially, including myself, are kind of selfish. someone will either have to come up with a cheap technological advance to change it or governments will have to pass laws to changes the rules on things like gas mileage and pollution effects. We definitely need to improve our transportation infastructure with things like high-speed trains and such. i remember when the 'it' or 'segway' was 1st introduced how it was said that that technology would be used in the future to offset our dependance on fuel engines. it's probably 10 or so years later and so far all it seems to be used for is security in the malls :?
Great point, pjhawks. Maybe if enough of us express our desire to see better gas milage in cars and new technology applied to cleaner vehicles, the companies that produce them will respond. Neil Young proved it with his buddies who built the Lincvolt- a big old USA built boat that they converted to get something like 80 MPG's out of. There were inherent problems with that of course, but this was just a bunch of guys in a garage in the Bay Area foothills fooling around with cars-- imagine what our auto manufactures could come up with if the demand were there!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
It is all about demand in a capitalist society. unfortunately, people are not demanding solar panels, electric cars, wind energy, etc.
How is this not a huge deal in the states?
http://www.betterplace.com/
The whole notion that you have to work your fingers to the bone as the central concept of existence is dying, and with it the propagandists message that hard work will buy you the American dream. Working your fingers to the bone should not be forced upon you or anyone - wage slavery is no way to live - rather, hard work and an authentic life should be born of a passion to help, feed, cloth, shelter and service your human brother and sisters. To enhance the physical and mental well-being of others. To protect our plant and animal friends. To worship the earth and its glory and protect it from being further pillaged and exploited. These are where the light of existence should take us, where our hard work should be created from. Not from MBA fabrications of competitive advantage, Ricardian free-trade, and other methods to compete against each other for tickets to play the game of life where we buy things that are mostly unnecessary.
Technology can only help us in that end, and in fact, is necessary.
venture capitalism
this is an interesting post
starting with the question: how much technology do we need?
i have to say: basically we don't need any technology at all because it's something unnatural and as the humanity is a product of the nature we are able to live without anything unnatural. i don't say that technology is not useful, i think it can be useful but it depends on how you use it and what you use it for....using it in a capitalistic world as an average for an exploitive, militant, competitive and inhuman system is not really - let's call it "advantegous".
"at what point does capitalism not work anymore?"
i think capitalism is a system that will naturally kill itself in the end because it's based on the exploitation of people and nature and at one point one of them will finally make it stop.
also the neoliberal economic system which is principally the idea of a free competition on the market will self-destruct because there are more and more formations of market monopolies (example: nobody would come up with the idea of launching a new motor company) which will ultimately stop the competition....
these are just two examples that, as i think, show that capitalism is going to end somehow or other but i also think that we shouldn't wait for it to end to prevent more catastrophes, we should end it active now because it is, as i already said before, inhuman and exploitive and we people should finally realize that we are just a small, small part of the nature, the world and the whole evolution and not the "kings" of it. we're dependant on nature so we should live in line with it and we should also realize that no one is better than the others so there is no right for anyone to stand over his fellow human beings. people should learn to live peacefull, respectfull and equally together with each other and together with other species.
additionally, in 2012, we've never been more capitalistic than right now. Technology while it obviously has its many benefits, hasnt made us less reliable and dependent on capitalistic heirarchies, its made us more dependent.
please name at least 3 socio-economic systems that are NOT "inhuman and exploitive"
Capitalism
Firstly, lost-dog, you write in English much better than most of us who are English speaking write in any other language. Well done!
If you can find it in Deutsche, you might appreciate Derrick Jensen's book Endgame.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
They both act as conduits for worldviews, any worldview. Not solely consumerism (which is the worldview that is being criticized here). Any worldview created is caused by the end users of the system, not the system itself.
Having said that, capitalism puts the most power in the hands of the public. When the system gets infiltrated by greed, corruption, inferiority, or a worldview that is not popular with public opinion, it is much easier to shift that worldview elsewhere or wipe out the negative factors with capitalism than it is with socialism.