As much as I despise the liberal agenda...

unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
edited September 2011 in A Moving Train
...NOTHING irritates me more than neo-cons. I should rather say the people that hijacked the TEA Party, these TEA O'Cons. Rick fucking Perry? Sarah fucking Palin? Michelle fucking Bachmann?

Makes me sick.


RON PAUL 2012!
LIBERTY FIRST!
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  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    I saw a sign, it said, "There are two political parties, The Republicrats and Ron Paul."
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    Neo-cons suck hard. Honestly, I don't know which group of Neo Cons I hate more: the group from 2008 who tried to laugh a guy like Paul off the stage at the debates because they were admittedly all radically different than him, or the current field who have stolen a few of his ideas about economic liberty only to re-regurgitate a perverse version of them, and combine those ideas with the worst possible stances on personal liberty and foreign policy imaginable... At least the first group seemed to be openly hawkish and 100% disinterested in dealing with fiscal or monetary policy-- where this group is clearly lying about both. Ahh well, liars are liars, and Ron Paul is the most honest man American politics has ever seen-- whether people agree with his ideas and worldview or not, at least people know where he really stands.

    Ron Paul really is only one guy radically different than everyone else out there, including the president, and Dr. Paul IS growing more electable by the day-- the cold shoulder treatment by the media really backfired on them, and I think he is really only starting to benefit from it. Sadly, as the economy worsens, more people are going to want to listen to him-- and he'll be the first person to wish he was 100% wrong-- but on matters of the economy, he's dead on. Everything that is happening currently was predicted by him years ago, and I feel that he has the best approach for getting things straightened out, and fuck, the guy even talks about wanting PEACE, and actually promoting a policy of LESS VIOLENCE TO ACHIEVE IT. How about instead of trying to achieve PEACE through more fighting and violence, we take a more direct approach? How can anyone see an issue with that? How can't that issue trump every other one automatically-- especially for principled liberals? The United States has not been at war for a mere 10 years as so many people wrongfully and forgetfully believe... It's been at war steadily in foreign countries since World War II, and has actually been internally at war for almost nearly as long-- and he wants to end it ALL. Whether he will be a success at it or not remains to be seen-- we just need to make steps in the right direction first and declare that there is a need to ending painful, wasteful, and expensive-in-every-way-imaginable war. Personally, I think he's got great pull in achieving this since as Commander in Chief he could order troops home from everywhere. He can also veto war-related spending bills as well as veto resolutions promoting any kind of foreign entanglement. As far as ending the "war on drugs" and any other war against the American people, his attorney general could back way off, unlike Holder or anyone else in this position, and let the states do their thing. These are very workable solutions to very HUGE problems, all of which are executive powers that are simply never exercised because we have yet to have a president that actually works for the people. I also think a Ron Paul presidencey would promote a watchful eye on the Fed, the backroom dealing and secret bailouts would have to suffer a tremendous blow.

    It really is time for people to stop doubting, and start doing. The guy is electable if we want him to be... I've been on the bandwagon since late 07, and I can't tell you how much the movement behind this guy has grown... If the past X number of presidents have only been marginally different, with their overall philosophies failing us, then why not just get behind the honest guy with some interesting and different ideas?
  • Honestly, how much difference can a different president make when your legislature is completely broken and intent on stalling everything? Obama can't even get his own party to listen to him and from what I see, the media is literally ignoring (or laughing at) Ron Paul's chances. It really doesn't matter who sits in the oval office; unless you can get congress and the senate moving again nothing will change. Politicians have mastered grinding the system to a halt.

    As I see things, congress fiddles while America burns. Of course, this opinion is coming from a Canadian so it shouldn't be taken seriously.
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    I also am a big Ron Paul fan... but, I would like to say:

    Ron Paul would support Bachmann, Perry, or Romney (should they win the nomination).... against Obama.

    There's a reason for that. He's a Republican. I like what Ron Paul stands for, but (like Ron Paul) I'm not clueless enough to think voting for the opposing party is going to help his cause.

    At this point, I'd prefer any Republican candidate to Obama.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

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  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    Honestly, how much difference can a different president make when your legislature is completely broken and intent on stalling everything? Obama can't even get his own party to listen to him and from what I see, the media is literally ignoring (or laughing at) Ron Paul's chances. It really doesn't matter who sits in the oval office; unless you can get congress and the senate moving again nothing will change. Politicians have mastered grinding the system to a halt.

    As I see things, congress fiddles while America burns. Of course, this opinion is coming from a Canadian so it shouldn't be taken seriously.

    As I mentioned above, I believe tremendous strides can be made with regards to foreign policy with just the actions or non-actions of the president. Could the Commander in Chief not order the troops home as he sees fit? He IS the Commander-- Congress holds the purse, and can declare war-- but when was the last time that was done? Simply put, no president cares enough to the bring troops home, and this is why it is never done. But the president can order troops home while Congress pulls its normal bullshit-- it's just that few of them rarely do it. Paul has made the bold claim that he would do it-- so even if he were a total liar, we've got a few hundred soundbytes as well as printed articles by this guy claiming he would do this if elected president.

    Also, seeing as how regulations are written everyday by various government agencies whose heads are appointed by the president, the executive branch has some power to do as it needs without Congress (although I take some issue with the agencies, and I think that Congress SHOULD be writing the laws, but they should be more discretionary in doing so). Actually having Congress doing absolutely nothing might even be welcome for a change since almost every law they pass only makes our situation worse anyway.
  • SatansFutonSatansFuton Posts: 5,399
    I have to admit, I don't know all that much about Ron Paul, or hear very much about him, and I live in Texas!!! I don't know whether or not I would like him or agree with his policies, but I don't like the fact that he doesn't get a fair shake (media attention-wise) simply because he isn't sexy enough. And I mean that figuratively, I'm sure Dr. Paul is a very sexy man who can shake his ass all night long, I just mean that it would appear he has to act outrageous and spout a bunch of stupid shit like Perry, Palin and Bachmann for the media to pay any attention to him.

    In the election coverage I've seen, Sarah Palin gets more media attention than Ron Paul, and she's not even in the fucking race. She could get on Twitter and talk about her weekend and the news is all over it, meanwhile I have very little idea of who or what Ron Paul is, other than that he's a Congressman from Texas. Even the local news here in Texas barely talks about him, they're more concerned with Perry.

    I guess I'll have to do my own research (probably better that way anyhow) because unless he starts ranting and raving the news isn't interested in talking about him.
    "See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    inlet13 wrote:
    I also am a big Ron Paul fan... but, I would like to say:

    Ron Paul would support Bachmann, Perry, or Romney (should they win the nomination).... against Obama.

    There's a reason for that. He's a Republican. I like what Ron Paul stands for, but (like Ron Paul) I'm not clueless enough to think voting for the opposing party is going to help his cause.

    At this point, I'd prefer any Republican candidate to Obama.

    He did NOT support McCain in 2008. He supported Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution Party. That's right. Wha?? Chuck WHO? ;)

    I could see him potentially supporting one of them if they talk like him to get elected... maybe. At which point, on some small level he has won-- when the establishment is talking about the Fed or the need for less war, it is a victory in the intellectual battle-- even if they are bullshitting. For him, foreign policy is the biggest thing-- so even if someone was REALLY rallying against The Fed, and seemed very serious, he wouldn't give anyone his endorsement if they didn't at least promise to re-think our foreign policy. The two go very hand-in-hand in my opinion. He actually often praises W.'s foregin policy platform from 2000-- which was non-interventionist, no nation building, and even pointed Clinton out as hawkish and interventionist. Well, we all know how different W. turned out to be.
  • inlet13 wrote:
    I also am a big Ron Paul fan... but, I would like to say:

    Ron Paul would support Bachmann, Perry, or Romney (should they win the nomination).... against Obama.

    no, he would not.
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    inlet13 wrote:
    I also am a big Ron Paul fan... but, I would like to say:

    Ron Paul would support Bachmann, Perry, or Romney (should they win the nomination).... against Obama.

    no, he would not.


    Agreed, not a chance.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    unsung wrote:
    inlet13 wrote:
    I also am a big Ron Paul fan... but, I would like to say:

    Ron Paul would support Bachmann, Perry, or Romney (should they win the nomination).... against Obama.

    no, he would not.


    Agreed, not a chance.
    Also agreed. Seems to me Mr. Paul would rather run as an independent but knows doing so automatically puts him out of the running. Too bad because he really is more of an independent than a strict party line guy.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • butterjambutterjam Posts: 215
    unsung wrote:
    inlet13 wrote:
    I also am a big Ron Paul fan... but, I would like to say:

    Ron Paul would support Bachmann, Perry, or Romney (should they win the nomination).... against Obama.

    no, he would not.


    Agreed, not a chance.


    Agreed again. He wouldn't even support McCain in '08. He supported Chuck Baldwin. Ron Paul has something a lot of politicians do not, principles. And he stands by them.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    If Michelle Bachmann were the President... in charge of the launch codes for our nuclear arsenal... the city who would have the highest fear of a U.S. nuclear first strike would be San Francisco.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    Cosmo wrote:
    If Michelle Bachmann were the President... in charge of the launch codes for our nuclear arsenal... the city who would have the highest fear of a U.S. nuclear first strike would be San Francisco.

    I can picture Bachmann wanting to nuke The City by the Bay. Only problem is all of our liberal radiation fallout would eventually drift over Stillwater! :lol:
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    I almost forgot to ask...
    What is the 'Liberal Agenda'... I must've missed that memo.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Exactly.. it's alot easier to generalize a group by saying they have an agenda instead of simply discussing ideas and beliefs.
    Cosmo wrote:
    I almost forgot to ask...
    What is the 'Liberal Agenda'... I must've missed that memo.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Exactly.. it's alot easier to generalize a group by saying they have an agenda instead of simply discussing ideas and beliefs.
    Cosmo wrote:
    I almost forgot to ask...
    What is the 'Liberal Agenda'... I must've missed that memo.


    I suppose it could be considered the belief that the federal government not only can but that they should solve societal issues like poverty, healthcare costs, etc...
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Cosmo wrote:
    If Michelle Bachmann were the President... in charge of the launch codes for our nuclear arsenal... the city who would have the highest fear of a U.S. nuclear first strike would be San Francisco.

    nah... like most politicians she is all talk to get votes... Her and Rick Perry talk the tea party talk about gov't spending, but have their hand out for federal money every chance they get.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    Cosmo wrote:
    I almost forgot to ask...
    What is the 'Liberal Agenda'... I must've missed that memo.


    This is true, they don't have a plan, that much is clear.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I suppose it could be considered the belief that the federal government not only can but that they should solve societal issues like poverty, healthcare costs, etc...
    ...
    Just asking... but, does that fall under the 'Promote the General Welfare' clause? Without the term 'Welfare' used to describe the general use of the term in today's environment. More like, looking over the greater good of ALL American citizens. Because, for example, the increasing costs of Health Care is affecting ALL of us... not just the ones without insurance.
    ...
    "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Cosmo wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I suppose it could be considered the belief that the federal government not only can but that they should solve societal issues like poverty, healthcare costs, etc...
    ...
    Just asking... but, does that fall under the 'Promote the General Welfare' clause? Without the term 'Welfare' used to describe the general use of the term in today's environment. More like, looking over the greater good of ALL American citizens. Because, for example, the increasing costs of Health Care is affecting ALL of us... not just the ones without insurance.
    ...
    "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


    if those things were to be covered by the general welfare statement, they could have just stopped there and not needed any other parts of the constitution. That isn't necessarily a clause as it is a general statement of purpose of the government. if it was meant that the government could ever increase the size of itself in the name of the "general welfare of the people", the enumerated and implied powers of the constitution would not have been necessary. You wouldn't need anything else. You wouldn't need any limits on the executive branch, the legislative branch, or the judicial branch.
    Because the power the government has to "promote the general welfare" of the people is spelled out inside the constitution. and anything that exceeds those enumerated powers is and should be declared unconstitutional.

    For anyone interested, a pretty good book about the importance of the division of government and states' rights should look into the book "Power Divided is Power Checked" by Jason Lewis. Pretty good read about the constitution and the federal limits that are supposed to exist. Good read, especially for people who don't have a great grasp of the constitution and the powers it grants our government.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    if those things were to be covered by the general welfare statement, they could have just stopped there and not needed any other parts of the constitution. That isn't necessarily a clause as it is a general statement of purpose of the government. if it was meant that the government could ever increase the size of itself in the name of the "general welfare of the people", the enumerated and implied powers of the constitution would not have been necessary. You wouldn't need anything else. You wouldn't need any limits on the executive branch, the legislative branch, or the judicial branch.
    Because the power the government has to "promote the general welfare" of the people is spelled out inside the constitution. and anything that exceeds those enumerated powers is and should be declared unconstitutional.
    ...
    Question: Are those things covered in the general statement of purpose of the government?

    Regarding the Preamble, it is an opening statement on what government should do as defined in the following Constitution. The government is going to:
    Establish Justice, (by establishing a law making, law enforement and courts system)
    Insure domestic Tranquility, (by granting Liberties and placing restrictions on government)
    Provide for the common defence, (by creating and upkeeping a Natioanl Military Force)
    Promote the general Welfare, (by ensuring that all Americans are provided access to these Liberties)
    Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.
    So... the answer is No, you can't just stop at the Preamble without clarifying the methods and procedures to establish a government.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Cosmo wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    if those things were to be covered by the general welfare statement, they could have just stopped there and not needed any other parts of the constitution. That isn't necessarily a clause as it is a general statement of purpose of the government. if it was meant that the government could ever increase the size of itself in the name of the "general welfare of the people", the enumerated and implied powers of the constitution would not have been necessary. You wouldn't need anything else. You wouldn't need any limits on the executive branch, the legislative branch, or the judicial branch.
    Because the power the government has to "promote the general welfare" of the people is spelled out inside the constitution. and anything that exceeds those enumerated powers is and should be declared unconstitutional.
    ...
    Question: Are those things covered in the general statement of purpose of the government?

    Regarding the Preamble, it is an opening statement on what government should do as defined in the following Constitution. The government is going to:
    Establish Justice, (by establishing a law making, law enforement and courts system)
    Insure domestic Tranquility, (by granting Liberties and placing restrictions on government)
    Provide for the common defence, (by creating and upkeeping a Natioanl Military Force)
    Promote the general Welfare, (by ensuring that all Americans are provided access to these Liberties)
    Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.
    So... the answer is No, you can't just stop at the Preamble without clarifying the methods and procedures to establish a government.

    I am referring more to the general welfare clause in article 1 section 8, not necessarily stopping at the preamble. Congress would need no other rules if general welfare meant the peoeples day to day lives. The whole document could have said, "Congress can tax you, and through that tax pay the nations debts and provide all basic needs of the people." if you interpret general welfare to mean take care of citizens day to day lives, then You are free to interpret it that way. I don't.
    Again it is a general statement of purpose inside of a taxation article talking about what the money shall be spent on. The term welfare takes on a different connotation now because of the government programs under the same name. The interpretation of this clause and that wording is not uniform. Which is why government programs are said to be unconstitutional by some, and not others. But ultimately the federal government needed no other power than to say "we can tax the states and people at large to be spent on the general welfare of the people of the united states." That clause could be used to justify everything up to and including full wealth seizure. It didn't say that, it said of the United States...which to me means that the government has the power to tax to pay the debts and protect the United States government from creditors both foreign and domestic, as well as to promote and regulate American commerce. Does that interpretation make sense? If they had meant for article I section 8 to be applied to the people of the united states individually I believe they would have said so considering how meticulously they designed it. But that has been under debate for as long as the document has been ratified and probably before. Hamilton's and Madison's interpretations are the foundation of the argument.
    I don't think you or I will be the ones to solve it :lol:

    hopefully that makes sense. Having to write it between job duties. Proofread the best I could!

    oh and to answer your question, I would say no.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    You can characterize it in any form, but I don't think you'd actually find anyone who considers themselves a "liberal" to have such a wholistic viewpoint. It's mere generalize by the opposition in order to complain about the other side.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I suppose it could be considered the belief that the federal government not only can but that they should solve societal issues like poverty, healthcare costs, etc...
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    FiveB247x wrote:
    You can characterize it in any form, but I don't think you'd actually find anyone who considers themselves a "liberal" to have such a wholistic viewpoint. It's mere generalize by the opposition in order to complain about the other side.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I suppose it could be considered the belief that the federal government not only can but that they should solve societal issues like poverty, healthcare costs, etc...


    I don't think there was any negative connotation with what I said. I think that is a pretty realistic viewpoint of liberal America's "agenda", for better or for worse.
    You don't think that I could find any liberal who believes that things like healthcare can and should be provided? really? just because it is a generalization doesn't make it not true.
    I don't think that this generalization is off base at all, nor do I think it is necessarily negative or used to discredit anyone. Would every single person interviewed give that definition of the platform, probably not exactly but can you not believe that one could extrapolate it responses?
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    The exact reason you are incorrect is because your generalization/definition is solely based on something going on in current events of very recently. That definition would not be given even 5 yrs ago. The notion of what are "liberal" or "conservative" have become nothing more than words to slander with nowadays. And if you look at the real definition or history of each, they are far from the groups, ideas and people who throw them around nowadays. As I said before, they're just generalizations to denounce or discredit the opposition now.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    You can characterize it in any form, but I don't think you'd actually find anyone who considers themselves a "liberal" to have such a wholistic viewpoint. It's mere generalize by the opposition in order to complain about the other side.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I suppose it could be considered the belief that the federal government not only can but that they should solve societal issues like poverty, healthcare costs, etc...

    I don't think there was any negative connotation with what I said. I think that is a pretty realistic viewpoint of liberal America's "agenda", for better or for worse.
    You don't think that I could find any liberal who believes that things like healthcare can and should be provided? really? just because it is a generalization doesn't make it not true.
    I don't think that this generalization is off base at all, nor do I think it is necessarily negative or used to discredit anyone. Would every single person interviewed give that definition of the platform, probably not exactly but can you not believe that one could extrapolate it responses?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    Cosmo wrote:
    If Michelle Bachmann were the President... in charge of the launch codes for our nuclear arsenal... the city who would have the highest fear of a U.S. nuclear first strike would be San Francisco.

    nah... like most politicians she is all talk to get votes... Her and Rick Perry talk the tea party talk about gov't spending, but have their hand out for federal money every chance they get.

    Yep. It's that "we're against government spending except when we're not" thing. :crazy:
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    General Welfare does not mean cradle-to-the-grave welfare.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Unsung - I have an indirect question regarding this comment. We all pay taxes in our society, yet the services we receive aren't necessary up to par, or atleast the capacity they could be. Now there's plenty of corruption and bureaucracy within our system, but with that said, and regardless of that part, don't you feel like with the amount of money our government collects, the citizens of our nation should be receiving more? We pay close to 33-50% to the government in taxes, yet what do we really receive for it? This seems to be the forgotten question about our tax system and government spending. Most people when talking about this topic, it's more about the corruption or invisible leeches sucking the rest of us dry, but let's talk about the other end of this discussion. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
    unsung wrote:
    General Welfare does not mean cradle-to-the-grave welfare.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    FiveB247x wrote:
    The exact reason you are incorrect is because your generalization/definition is solely based on something going on in current events of very recently. That definition would not be given even 5 yrs ago. The notion of what are "liberal" or "conservative" have become nothing more than words to slander with nowadays. And if you look at the real definition or history of each, they are far from the groups, ideas and people who throw them around nowadays. As I said before, they're just generalizations to denounce or discredit the opposition now.


    So myopinion about what those words mean is so far off base that I am literally incorrect. It isn't based solely on current events. It is rich with history...the great society, the new deal...these are all solutions to problems of their era...these solutions are based in the idea that the government should do more to solve societal problems. They are all liberal (left of center) in nature. Liberal isn't a dirty word, and my description is not meant as a knock on them...It is a fundamental difference between people who align on the right and people who align on the left. either you believe the government should be the first actor in a problem, or an actor of last resort... Now that may not hold true for every situation for every liberal, but I think it is a constant that cannot be ignored...nor should it be.
    You may look at those words as slander, I don't. I look at them as a way to understand the motivations of someones ideas...actually makes it easier to understand them and their ideas, and it usually brings me closer to an idea of compromise.
    I think you may want to check the arrogance at the door, I understand what you are trying to say, but that doesn't mean that everyone looks at those labels the same way as you do. In today's politics, if you are left of center you are more "liberal"...if you are right of center you are more conservative in nature. Now you can be on that spectrum in social issues, or economic issues, it doesn't have to be both and you can have conservative leanings and liberal ideas...I don't look at them as slander or a knock, rather than to better understand the motivations of the person I am talking to...but since the way I interpret those labels is incorrect, I guess I am just stupid and allow THEY to tell me how to think and feel.
    grouping people by generalization isn't all negative.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else. People group, label and categorize ideas now cause it's a lazy way to associate or disassociate with the belief set. I don't think anyone generically thinks such a large and looming idea towards government or not (as you describe). It's a very simplistic way to not discuss each particular issue or area while grouping people together. Our society faces tons of real issues, most of which have complex pieces that offer no simple answers. Saying things are black and white, good or bad is nativity which is what we see in our culture. Everything is grey and elastic, not black and white and set in stone, which goes against how our society thinks and acts (and wants things to be). That's all I'm conveying. People who walk around saying they're a "liberal" or "conservative" have no real place in our society because we have lost focus on what they actually mean in practice in comparison to what we do in the world (home and abroad).
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    The exact reason you are incorrect is because your generalization/definition is solely based on something going on in current events of very recently. That definition would not be given even 5 yrs ago. The notion of what are "liberal" or "conservative" have become nothing more than words to slander with nowadays. And if you look at the real definition or history of each, they are far from the groups, ideas and people who throw them around nowadays. As I said before, they're just generalizations to denounce or discredit the opposition now.


    So myopinion about what those words mean is so far off base that I am literally incorrect. It isn't based solely on current events. It is rich with history...the great society, the new deal...these are all solutions to problems of their era...these solutions are based in the idea that the government should do more to solve societal problems. They are all liberal (left of center) in nature. Liberal isn't a dirty word, and my description is not meant as a knock on them...It is a fundamental difference between people who align on the right and people who align on the left. either you believe the government should be the first actor in a problem, or an actor of last resort... Now that may not hold true for every situation for every liberal, but I think it is a constant that cannot be ignored...nor should it be.
    You may look at those words as slander, I don't. I look at them as a way to understand the motivations of someones ideas...actually makes it easier to understand them and their ideas, and it usually brings me closer to an idea of compromise.
    I think you may want to check the arrogance at the door, I understand what you are trying to say, but that doesn't mean that everyone looks at those labels the same way as you do. In today's politics, if you are left of center you are more "liberal"...if you are right of center you are more conservative in nature. Now you can be on that spectrum in social issues, or economic issues, it doesn't have to be both and you can have conservative leanings and liberal ideas...I don't look at them as slander or a knock, rather than to better understand the motivations of the person I am talking to...but since the way I interpret those labels is incorrect, I guess I am just stupid and allow THEY to tell me how to think and feel.
    grouping people by generalization isn't all negative.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
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