Fiscal Cons, still think the death penalty is worth it??

gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
edited June 2011 in A Moving Train
to all of you who claim to be fiscally conservative, after reading this, is the death penalty still worth it to the american tax payer? what exactly are the people of california getting for all of the money they are investing in these death penalty cases and convicts? how can you justify continuing on with the death penalty and death row at these prices? how can you be for it at this cost at the expense of cutting funding for things like education and healthcare? the way i see it, we can spend money on making everyone healthier, or we can spend money on making sure a few hundred people get murdered by the state to the detriment of everyone else...

California Death Penalty Costs State $184 Million A Year, Study Finds

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/2 ... 80436.html

California has rarely executed convicts since the death penalty was reinstated there in 1978, but the state has managed to spend $4 billion taxpayer dollars on capital punishment since then, according to a new cost analysis.

The study, conducted over three years by a senior federal judge and a law professor, estimates that the 13 executions California has carried out in the past three decades have cost an average of $308 million each in legal fees and death row security costs. According to the L.A. Times, a death penalty prosecution can cost the state up to 20 times more than a life-without-parole case.

Since the lag in California between a death row conviction and an execution now averages more than 25 years, and the state hasn't executed one prisoner since 2006, critics of the death penalty are wondering exactly what Californians are receiving in return for their money -- especially given the state's mounting budget concerns.

"Basically, they're paying for a life sentence, but at the cost of death penalty trials, death penalty appeals and death row incarcerations, all of which are extremely expensive," said Richard Dieter, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center. "And everything else gets shortchanged because of this gold-plated death penalty -- state schools are closing, policemen are getting laid off, prisoners are getting freed to make room. No one would think having the death penalty was worth that much."

California currently has nearly 700 people on death row -- by far the highest in the nation. If the state holds onto the death penalty, that number could climb to over 1,000 by 2030, costing taxpayers $9 billion, the study estimates.

Other states have already begun to phase out the death penalty due to budget issues: New Mexico repealed it in 2009, Illinois lawmakers voted to ban it in March of this year, and lawmakers in Maryland and Connecticut are currently considering doing the same. But in California, state law requires a vote by referendum in order to repeal the death penalty.

"We hope that California voters, informed of what the death penalty actually costs them, will cast their informed votes in favor of a system that makes sense," the report concludes.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1

Comments

  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    to all of you who claim to be fiscally conservative, after reading this, is the death penalty still worth it to the american tax payer? what exactly are the people of california getting for all of the money they are investing in these death penalty cases and convicts? how can you justify continuing on with the death penalty and death row at these prices? how can you be for it at this cost at the expense of cutting funding for things like education and healthcare? the way i see it, we can spend money on making everyone healthier, or we can spend money on making sure a few hundred people get murdered by the state to the detriment of everyone else...

    California Death Penalty Costs State $184 Million A Year, Study Finds

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/2 ... 80436.html

    California has rarely executed convicts since the death penalty was reinstated there in 1978, but the state has managed to spend $4 billion taxpayer dollars on capital punishment since then, according to a new cost analysis.

    The study, conducted over three years by a senior federal judge and a law professor, estimates that the 13 executions California has carried out in the past three decades have cost an average of $308 million each in legal fees and death row security costs. According to the L.A. Times, a death penalty prosecution can cost the state up to 20 times more than a life-without-parole case.

    Since the lag in California between a death row conviction and an execution now averages more than 25 years, and the state hasn't executed one prisoner since 2006, critics of the death penalty are wondering exactly what Californians are receiving in return for their money -- especially given the state's mounting budget concerns.

    "Basically, they're paying for a life sentence, but at the cost of death penalty trials, death penalty appeals and death row incarcerations, all of which are extremely expensive," said Richard Dieter, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center. "And everything else gets shortchanged because of this gold-plated death penalty -- state schools are closing, policemen are getting laid off, prisoners are getting freed to make room. No one would think having the death penalty was worth that much."

    California currently has nearly 700 people on death row -- by far the highest in the nation. If the state holds onto the death penalty, that number could climb to over 1,000 by 2030, costing taxpayers $9 billion, the study estimates.

    Other states have already begun to phase out the death penalty due to budget issues: New Mexico repealed it in 2009, Illinois lawmakers voted to ban it in March of this year, and lawmakers in Maryland and Connecticut are currently considering doing the same. But in California, state law requires a vote by referendum in order to repeal the death penalty.

    "We hope that California voters, informed of what the death penalty actually costs them, will cast their informed votes in favor of a system that makes sense," the report concludes.

    I'm against the death penalty. I could not care less about the cost. I'm against killing people. I think it's wrong, just like abortion.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,436
    inlet13 wrote:
    I'm against the death penalty. I could not care less about the cost. I'm against killing people. I think it's wrong, just like abortion.

    Agreed! No more killing... people who have been born, I mean. The abortion issue is, no doubt, discussed elsewhere.

    And thank you gimmesometruth27 for posting this. Too often the money issue is used to justify the death sentence... as if someones life can be put in terms of dollars. :problem:
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • Careful... before long Tea Baggers will be suggesting that we have a reality show leading up to the execution and sell advertising.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    California needs to increase their efficiency on expediting executions or get out of the executing business. Perhaps they can farm their death row inmates out to Texas.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Jason P wrote:
    California needs to increase their efficiency on expediting executions or get out of the executing business. Perhaps they can farm their death row inmates out to Texas.
    so are you ok with the spending or ok with the killing?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    Interesting question. Then again, if killing a murderer prevents the deaths of others in anyway, can't really put a pricetag on that. I realize that point is debatable, but if you include the other people at risk by keeping some monsters alive (guards, other inmates, etc) then it's tough to say killing a murderer protects no one.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Interesting question. Then again, if killing a murderer prevents the deaths of others in anyway, can't really put a pricetag on that. I realize that point is debatable, but if you include the other people at risk by keeping some monsters alive (guards, other inmates, etc) then it's tough to say killing a murderer protects no one.
    $184 million a year to protect a few guards or a few prisoners???

    think about how much money that is spent in a year and what the state is gaining for that money.

    why not put that towards something the entire state can benefit from?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    Jason P wrote:
    California needs to increase their efficiency on expediting executions or get out of the executing business. Perhaps they can farm their death row inmates out to Texas.
    so are you ok with the spending or ok with the killing?
    Neither. But the program is in place, so they had better get efficient or scrap the program.

    Being that it's California, I imagine the term "efficient" is not in the court's vocabulary. They are probably better off scraping the program ... unless they outsource to Texas.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    Interesting question. Then again, if killing a murderer prevents the deaths of others in anyway, can't really put a pricetag on that. I realize that point is debatable, but if you include the other people at risk by keeping some monsters alive (guards, other inmates, etc) then it's tough to say killing a murderer protects no one.
    $184 million a year to protect a few guards or a few prisoners???

    think about how much money that is spent in a year and what the state is gaining for that money.

    why not put that towards something the entire state can benefit from?


    You are right though, the process is broken.

    But what you are telling me is that the lives of a few guards and prisoners and the public at large should the murderer ever get out some way, isn't worth $184MM. So, what is a life worth?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Interesting question. Then again, if killing a murderer prevents the deaths of others in anyway, can't really put a pricetag on that. I realize that point is debatable, but if you include the other people at risk by keeping some monsters alive (guards, other inmates, etc) then it's tough to say killing a murderer protects no one.
    $184 million a year to protect a few guards or a few prisoners???

    think about how much money that is spent in a year and what the state is gaining for that money.

    why not put that towards something the entire state can benefit from?

    good morning Gimmi, I follow what you are saying and as much as I have defended the death penalty..in my heart of hearts I don't know if it is right or not.
    money really has no baring on this debate in my humble opinion if you think about the billion's spent on other thing's that some of us believe to be un-just to the American tax payer. I'm not saying you are right wrong or otherwise just wondering where is the line drawn with death and money because I see these two issues in everyday life beyond the prison system and death row.

    Godfather.
  • ParachuteParachute Posts: 409
    kill 'em all.

    Metallica said so.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Parachute wrote:
    kill 'em all.

    Metallica said so.

    does that come with a happy meal ? :lol:
    just kidding Parachute,looking at your avatar I just couldn't resist.

    Godfather.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Parachute wrote:
    kill 'em all.

    Metallica said so.
    that was referring to all of the record executives who would not release "kill 'em all" as the intended title "metal up your ass"...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Interesting question. Then again, if killing a murderer prevents the deaths of others in anyway, can't really put a pricetag on that. I realize that point is debatable, but if you include the other people at risk by keeping some monsters alive (guards, other inmates, etc) then it's tough to say killing a murderer protects no one.
    $184 million a year to protect a few guards or a few prisoners???

    think about how much money that is spent in a year and what the state is gaining for that money.

    why not put that towards something the entire state can benefit from?


    You are right though, the process is broken.

    But what you are telling me is that the lives of a few guards and prisoners and the public at large should the murderer ever get out some way, isn't worth $184MM. So, what is a life worth?
    i believe that what benefits society as a whole in that state should be done. do not waste $184 million a year on trying and defending capital cases when it would be cheeper to impose, prosecute or defend in court a sentence of life in prison. if they did that, that money would be freed up for other things such as infrastructure, education, or putting it towards the budget shortfall.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Aren't fiscal conservatives supposed to come in here and complain it is from the huffington post and the study was done by a anti death penalty center? :lol:
    The cost for the death penalty would be greatly reduced if states would eliminate the real cost driver of the criminal justice system, the war on drugs...this would be simply putting a band aid on the budget while the center who put out the study would reach their goal of the death penalty being abolished.

    so should they not have life sentences either? because that will STILL COST MONEY. prisons and punishment cost money but they benefit society too...

    I am only against the death penalty because of the imperfect nature of our justice system, but life in prison is still going to cost money,

    The bigger issue shows up with the inefficient justice system in california, not just specifically the death penalty, just all around inefficient
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • butterjambutterjam Posts: 215

    But what you are telling me is that the lives of a few guards and prisoners and the public at large should the murderer ever get out some way, isn't worth $184MM. So, what is a life worth?

    No, its not worth it. That money would save a lot more lives in other ways, feeding hungry, health care, etc.

    The more important thing to me is that no one should be put to death. Its one thing to kill someone to protect the innocent, but once they are in jail, I would say that the general public is safe from that individual. I understand that there are jail breaks and they do kill other inmates and guards, but that is a very small percentage.

    On top of that, the death penalty is extremely biased against the poor and minorities.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    311jj wrote:

    On top of that, the death penalty is extremely biased against the poor and minorities.
    I think O.J. proved that it's just the poor. ;)
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,436
    What about spending some of those tons of money on preventitive measures like reducing poverty, and improving education? I've spoken with two people who have worked with death row inmates and they both said that preventing murders should start with improving early childhood education.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • butterjambutterjam Posts: 215
    brianlux wrote:
    What about spending some of those tons of money on preventitive measures like reducing poverty, and improving education? I've spoken with two people who have worked with death row inmates and they both said that preventing murders should start with improving early childhood education.

    Exactly. Poverty and education is the crux of so many of our problems here. How to solve them is another issue/topic.
  • butterjambutterjam Posts: 215
    Jason P wrote:
    311jj wrote:

    On top of that, the death penalty is extremely biased against the poor and minorities.
    I think O.J. proved that it's just the poor. ;)

    He proved that being rich trumps being a minority.
  • ParachuteParachute Posts: 409
    Godfather. wrote:
    Parachute wrote:
    kill 'em all.

    Metallica said so.

    does that come with a happy meal ? :lol:
    just kidding Parachute,looking at your avatar I just couldn't resist.

    Godfather.


    I AM the Happy Meal!! ;)
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Parachute wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    Parachute wrote:
    kill 'em all.

    Metallica said so.

    does that come with a happy meal ? :lol:
    just kidding Parachute,looking at your avatar I just couldn't resist.

    Godfather.


    I AM the Happy Meal!! ;)

    go get em kid ! youth is not wasted on the young.
    life is a cool adventure,18 to 80 blind crippled or crazy leave no prisoners in yer wake. :lol:

    Godfather.
  • what I find hilarious is that in the previous death penalty thread, so many pro-DPers tried to claim that it was much cheaper to execute someone rather than have them live a life sentence. I guess they thought all that goes into executing someone is a fork in an outlet? :lol:
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    what I find hilarious is that in the previous death penalty thread, so many pro-DPers tried to claim that it was much cheaper to execute someone rather than have them live a life sentence. I guess they thought all that goes into executing someone is a fork in an outlet? :lol:
    and so many people like me presented study after study after study, just like my OP here, showing that it is more expensive to execute someone than to let them serve a life term. people will believe what they want to believe, even in the face of facts...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • what I find hilarious is that in the previous death penalty thread, so many pro-DPers tried to claim that it was much cheaper to execute someone rather than have them live a life sentence. I guess they thought all that goes into executing someone is a fork in an outlet? :lol:
    and so many people like me presented study after study after study, just like my OP here, showing that it is more expensive to execute someone than to let them serve a life term. people will believe what they want to believe, even in the face of facts...

    I know. I've been arguing that for a long time too. they say it's cheaper. I PROVE to them that's wrong. they say "well price doesn't matter". yeah, all of a sudden it doesn't when it doesn't support their position.

    Go Jets Go!
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    To me, the bigger issue affecting cost is the inefficiency of the California court and legal system. Not only is it the death penalty, but all cases going through the court system are being hindered with unnecessary cost.

    A lot more money could be saved and used for education if the root cause is first addressed.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • OnTheEdgeOnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    Still kill the animals.....just find a cheaper way to do it.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Still kill the animals.....just find a cheaper way to do it.
    you didn't answer the question. is paying that price for the death penalty worth it to you? you are a conservative, and from what i recall a fiscal one at that. is it worth it? think with your head and not your heart on this one.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    Interesting stuff going on here in FLA:

    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state ... 56022.html

    ""It is the law in this country that not everyone who commits murder is eligible for the death penalty," Matthewman said. "It's only the worst of the worst."

    That's why it is so important that a jury agree on why a person deserves the ultimate punishment.

    "The worst that could happen is that we could convict innocent people," said West Palm Beach defense attorney Richard Lubin. "To play fast and loose with the rules makes no sense."

    The decision shouldn't spark a pro- or anti-death penalty debate, he said. "The issue is that before we give a person the ultimate penalty, unless you're absolutely certain beyond a reasonable doubt that they deserve it, we shouldn't be doing it."

    Further, Florida is an outlier. Alabama is the only other state that doesn't require jurors to agree on the aggravating factors that prompted their death penalty recommendation, said retired 18th Judicial Circuit Judge O.H. "Bill" Eaton, a capital punishment expert. But even Alabama requires a jury to reach a decision by a super majority vote. In Florida, if six of the 12 jurors agree, they may recommend death. A judge uses the recommendation to make the final decision.

    "Right now, all we get is a number," said West Palm Beach attorney Gregg Lerman. "There's something wrong with the fact that they don't even have to tell us why they are choosing death.""

    NO, its NOT worth it..anywhere!
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    edited June 2011
    what I find hilarious is that in the previous death penalty thread, so many pro-DPers tried to claim that it was much cheaper to execute someone rather than have them live a life sentence. I guess they thought all that goes into executing someone is a fork in an outlet? :lol:

    I still think it would be cheaper...depending on the age of the inmate and if they speeded up the process and not let these guys sit on death row for 5 to 20 years.

    Godfather.
    Post edited by Godfather. on
Sign In or Register to comment.