ummm point about godfather and but only the truth will set you free ? please get off yer know it all high horse
for most of you the truth is what ever fits your flowers and beads hippy way of thinking.
the truth is that things happen and many other things happen to create the one, but some of you just can't wrap your minds around the real truth of it and why...talk about fear, I never said I liked war but if I had to put my trust and my confidence in some of you to run this country...ooohhh crap ! the security and structure of the US would be right down the toilet.
hope you all enjoyed your memorial day weekend.
Godfather.
What would of been so sweet, so good! If you only used your time (with that reply) to address the issues, If only you put together a solid case for your argument. Rather you fell down the tired path wasting a post, throwing poorly contrived insults and using Nothing but blind conjecture. Speaking of things you know nothing about.
Brotha, All you had to do is post something with substance, even a half hearted reply would suffice. But you made the choice to rather make a post that fits the exact definition of ignorance, how easily you could've proven wrong the stereotype you so much dislike. Yet you did the opposite, you enforced it. You have only done yourself an injustice here.
I don't think the diabetes analogy really applies. It presumes that the person who refuses to listen actually has the problem. What about the person who is not an overweight smoker with diabetes, but still has people constantly chirping in his/her ear about the dangers. Just because I don't want to listen to it all the time, does not mean I am part of the diabetes epidemic. Or maybe I just want to hear it from a doctor, and not every person who thinks they're a doctor because they watched a few episodes of Dr. Oz. I choose to ignore the shrill, be it from the right or left. If I ignore a story on Fox News, that doesn't mean I'm pretending the story doesn't exist, I just choose not to listen to their slant on the matter. And because I choose not to pay attention to some people on the Moving Train, I am not ignorant to the issues. After all, I don't get my news, or facts about the news from the Pearl Jam message boards.
My point on the Mladic/bin Laden thing wasn't as deep as what all the causes for either man being what they were. Few of the comments were really based on anything other than "Nuh Uh America, you didn't "win" anything". We can debate the past until we're blue in the face, but that wasn't what most of the conversation was about. It was "I hate to break it to you Americans but you're no safer now and terrorism still exists". Just as genocide is not over now that Mladic has been arrested. A sentiment that nobody felt the need to express.
People felt the need to take the piss out of Americans for feeling closure over bin Laden. People don't feel the need to take the piss out of those who celebrated the capture of Mladic. The relief felt by both sides is as simple as the fact that these men who committed these atrocities are going to get what's coming to them, not every aspect of history leading up to it. When Hitler killed himself I wonder if people would have popped up and said "don't celebrate, none of this would have happened if we had stepped in after Hitler annexed Austria". Or blame the harsh conditions of the Treaty Of Versailles for "creating" Hitler and the political climate that would allow him to rise to power. Probably not, Hitler was dead, it was a good thing.
I was discussing the surface issue of the way people were behaving to one another, not the complexities of the issue itself. And it is a complex issue that can't be summarized simply by saying "America did it to itself". That's the thinking I'm talking about. There is one extreme (America did it to itself) the other extreme (America was attacked for no reason at all, and God bless Alan Jackson) and the truth really lies somewhere in the middle. Each far side of the spectrum have a pretty simplistic way of summing up events, and both are equally wrong. But that is a discussion for another thread, or if you would like to discuss it in personal messages or whatever, I'm cool with that as well.
It is true there are Americans who are oblivious to some things, and there are many that aren't. That can probably be said about almost every country though. America didn't invent ignorance after all.
soo ... really what you are saying is that if you deem a view to be extremist - you are going to ignore it even tho you may or may not actually be informed ... which is fair enough ... you can do whatever you want ... but you present no case that supports your opinion that the truth lies somewhere in the middle ...
i don't want to get into the examples as it'll essentially be another rant that will get many people's backs up ... but reality and truth are often clouded by our own perceptions ... the only way we're ever going to get to the truth is through open dialogue ...
ummm point about godfather and but only the truth will set you free ? please get off yer know it all high horse
for most of you the truth is what ever fits your flowers and beads hippy way of thinking.
the truth is that things happen and many other things happen to create the one, but some of you just can't wrap your minds around the real truth of it and why...talk about fear, I never said I liked war but if I had to put my trust and my confidence in some of you to run this country...ooohhh crap ! the security and structure of the US would be right down the toilet.
hope you all enjoyed your memorial day weekend.
Godfather.
What would of been so sweet, so good! If you only used your time (with that reply) to address the issues, If only you put together a solid case for your argument. Rather you fell down the tired path wasting a post, throwing poorly contrived insults and using Nothing but blind conjecture. Speaking of things you know nothing about.
Brotha, All you had to do is post something with substance, even a half hearted reply would suffice. But you made the choice to rather make a post that fits the exact definition of ignorance, how easily you could've proven wrong the stereotype you so much dislike. Yet you did the opposite, you enforced it. You have only done yourself an injustice here.
man brother the rules of debate on the train are all opinion when it comes to the current war and even past war's, many people on here talk about things that they really have no real truth or facts to back up their statements then they say things like "why does everybody hate the US ?" without thinking about all the things that bring us to this point or why,they like to talk about all the things that they call "bad" about the US but they really don't know why these bad things happen...they talk like they do and many are are really up on current events but the facts that lay behind the internet or T.V are hidden but they are all ready to blame the US for everything,to me it's like screaming and whining about how good we have it here in the US, you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history and today and not a well educated guess from someone who swears they're right and has internet article to back it up.
ummm point about godfather and but only the truth will set you free ? please get off yer know it all high horse
for most of you the truth is what ever fits your flowers and beads hippy way of thinking.
the truth is that things happen and many other things happen to create the one, but some of you just can't wrap your minds around the real truth of it and why...talk about fear, I never said I liked war but if I had to put my trust and my confidence in some of you to run this country...ooohhh crap ! the security and structure of the US would be right down the toilet.
hope you all enjoyed your memorial day weekend.
Godfather.
What would of been so sweet, so good! If you only used your time (with that reply) to address the issues, If only you put together a solid case for your argument. Rather you fell down the tired path wasting a post, throwing poorly contrived insults and using Nothing but blind conjecture. Speaking of things you know nothing about.
Brotha, All you had to do is post something with substance, even a half hearted reply would suffice. But you made the choice to rather make a post that fits the exact definition of ignorance, how easily you could've proven wrong the stereotype you so much dislike. Yet you did the opposite, you enforced it. You have only done yourself an injustice here.
man brother the rules of debate on the train are all opinion when it comes to the current war and even past war's, many people on here talk about things that they really have no real truth or facts to back up their statements then they say things like "why does everybody hate the US ?" without thinking about all the things that bring us to this point or why,they like to talk about all the things that they call "bad" about the US but they really don't know why these bad things happen...they talk like they do and many are are really up on current events but the facts that lay behind the internet or T.V are hidden but they are all ready to blame the US for everything,to me it's like screaming and whining about how good we have it here in the US, you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history and today and not a well educated guess from someone who swears they're right and has internet article to back it up.
Godfather.
The Iraq war is a good example of a situation that you ask for in your last sentence. The "inside knoldge" (sic) been documented by those involved and fits under one of the "bad" things the U.S. has done. The war isn't justifiable.
soo ... really what you are saying is that if you deem a view to be extremist - you are going to ignore it even tho you may or may not actually be informed ... which is fair enough ... you can do whatever you want ... but you present no case that supports your opinion that the truth lies somewhere in the middle ...
i don't want to get into the examples as it'll essentially be another rant that will get many people's backs up ... but reality and truth are often clouded by our own perceptions ... the only way we're ever going to get to the truth is through open dialogue ...
Sure, it's not all that radical of a concept. Do you ever listen to Rush Limbaugh, or watch Glen Beck? I know I don't, because I know it's going to be a lot of bullshit. I don't need to hear what they have to say, because I already know what it's going to be. I know some people who watch Glen because they find his stupidity hilarious, but half the time they end up getting pissed and turning it off.
I did give one example of a case where the truth lies in the middle, 9-11. I agree that open dialog is a good thing, but talking to people with extremist views is often like talking to a brick wall. Do you think you or I could actually sit down and have an intelligent discussion with Glen Beck? Well, maybe off the air, but when he is in his on-air personality, a personality that isn't all that different from some hard core right wingers, I don't think it would do any good.
As you said, the truth is clouded by our own perceptions. And people with extremist views, be they political or religious, got to be extremist by clinging to these perceptions. I just choose not to try and tangle with that. If you want to be the guy that goes around talking to Rush Limbaugh's acolytes all day, then I won't stop you. I wouldn't want to, and I wouldn't want to talk to their opposite number on the Left. As they are usually too set in their ways to hear anything you have to say.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
Sure, it's not all that radical of a concept. Do you ever listen to Rush Limbaugh, or watch Glen Beck? I know I don't, because I know it's going to be a lot of bullshit. I don't need to hear what they have to say, because I already know what it's going to be. I know some people who watch Glen because they find his stupidity hilarious, but half the time they end up getting pissed and turning it off.
I did give one example of a case where the truth lies in the middle, 9-11. I agree that open dialog is a good thing, but talking to people with extremist views is often like talking to a brick wall. Do you think you or I could actually sit down and have an intelligent discussion with Glen Beck? Well, maybe off the air, but when he is in his on-air personality, a personality that isn't all that different from some hard core right wingers, I don't think it would do any good.
As you said, the truth is clouded by our own perceptions. And people with extremist views, be they political or religious, got to be extremist by clinging to these perceptions. I just choose not to try and tangle with that. If you want to be the guy that goes around talking to Rush Limbaugh's acolytes all day, then I won't stop you. I wouldn't want to, and I wouldn't want to talk to their opposite number on the Left. As they are usually too set in their ways to hear anything you have to say.
but what is extremist!? ... glenn beck may be extremist to you but he is the gospel to soooooo many people ... this is the point i am trying to get across ... also, i think many think i am extremely on the left ... but i believe my views to be grounded in the reality i believe in ... hence my belief that you really need to get to the facts thru dialogue ... all i know is that if you think people are too set in their ways to hear anything than you've already dismissed any of their thoughts ... if you think that is a good approach - so be it ...
man brother the rules of debate on the train are all opinion when it comes to the current war and even past war's, many people on here talk about things that they really have no real truth or facts to back up their statements then they say things like "why does everybody hate the US ?" without thinking about all the things that bring us to this point or why,they like to talk about all the things that they call "bad" about the US but they really don't know why these bad things happen...they talk like they do and many are are really up on current events but the facts that lay behind the internet or T.V are hidden but they are all ready to blame the US for everything,to me it's like screaming and whining about how good we have it here in the US, you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history and today and not a well educated guess from someone who swears they're right and has internet article to back it up.
Godfather.
What an unfortunate time we live in, when 'facts' are considered 'opinions. Nevertheless Godfather, I feel that maybe, we will only be able to make progress if we can get to know more about one another.
I assure you, deep down, we want the same basic things. To be happy, live free. We do this using clear logic, good reasoning and a right understanding, right actions.
Don't trust me Godfather, don't even trust yourself, not until you gnōthi seauton! So you may raise your level of cognition.
At the very least try it...as you mentioned in your post " you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history"
When you learn who you are. The answers you seek will come. You will have the most inside of information, intimate knowledge as to "why". So Never stop seeking! Don't let others stop you from getting to the bottom of it, and most importantly, do not fall victim to the one thing we are all so susceptible to...Our egos.
Perhaps today you will dismiss this as left wing, liberal comedy. But one day we will see how deep the joke truly get's..and when you grasp the concept of space/time you will know, one day, is now.
What would of been so sweet, so good! If you only used your time (with that reply) to address the issues, If only you put together a solid case for your argument. Rather you fell down the tired path wasting a post, throwing poorly contrived insults and using Nothing but blind conjecture. Speaking of things you know nothing about.
Brotha, All you had to do is post something with substance, even a half hearted reply would suffice. But you made the choice to rather make a post that fits the exact definition of ignorance, how easily you could've proven wrong the stereotype you so much dislike. Yet you did the opposite, you enforced it. You have only done yourself an injustice here.
man brother the rules of debate on the train are all opinion when it comes to the current war and even past war's, many people on here talk about things that they really have no real truth or facts to back up their statements then they say things like "why does everybody hate the US ?" without thinking about all the things that bring us to this point or why,they like to talk about all the things that they call "bad" about the US but they really don't know why these bad things happen...they talk like they do and many are are really up on current events but the facts that lay behind the internet or T.V are hidden but they are all ready to blame the US for everything,to me it's like screaming and whining about how good we have it here in the US, you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history and today and not a well educated guess from someone who swears they're right and has internet article to back it up.
Godfather.
The Iraq war is a good example of a situation that you ask for in your last sentence. The "inside knoldge" (sic) been documented by those involved and fits under one of the "bad" things the U.S. has done. The war isn't justifiable.[/quote][/quote][/quote]
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.
What would of been so sweet, so good! If you only used your time (with that reply) to address the issues, If only you put together a solid case for your argument. Rather you fell down the tired path wasting a post, throwing poorly contrived insults and using Nothing but blind conjecture. Speaking of things you know nothing about.
Brotha, All you had to do is post something with substance, even a half hearted reply would suffice. But you made the choice to rather make a post that fits the exact definition of ignorance, how easily you could've proven wrong the stereotype you so much dislike. Yet you did the opposite, you enforced it. You have only done yourself an injustice here.
man brother the rules of debate on the train are all opinion when it comes to the current war and even past war's, many people on here talk about things that they really have no real truth or facts to back up their statements then they say things like "why does everybody hate the US ?" without thinking about all the things that bring us to this point or why,they like to talk about all the things that they call "bad" about the US but they really don't know why these bad things happen...they talk like they do and many are are really up on current events but the facts that lay behind the internet or T.V are hidden but they are all ready to blame the US for everything,to me it's like screaming and whining about how good we have it here in the US, you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history and today and not a well educated guess from someone who swears they're right and has internet article to back it up.
Godfather.
The Iraq war is a good example of a situation that you ask for in your last sentence. The "inside knoldge" (sic) been documented by those involved and fits under one of the "bad" things the U.S. has done. The war isn't justifiable.
[/quote][/quote]
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.[/quote]
cool, thanks GB, I 've missed that but would like to see it.
man brother the rules of debate on the train are all opinion when it comes to the current war and even past war's, many people on here talk about things that they really have no real truth or facts to back up their statements then they say things like "why does everybody hate the US ?" without thinking about all the things that bring us to this point or why,they like to talk about all the things that they call "bad" about the US but they really don't know why these bad things happen...they talk like they do and many are are really up on current events but the facts that lay behind the internet or T.V are hidden but they are all ready to blame the US for everything,to me it's like screaming and whining about how good we have it here in the US, you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history and today and not a well educated guess from someone who swears they're right and has internet article to back it up.
Godfather.
The Iraq war is a good example of a situation that you ask for in your last sentence. The "inside knoldge" (sic) been documented by those involved and fits under one of the "bad" things the U.S. has done. The war isn't justifiable.[/quote][/quote][/quote]
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.[/quote]
cool, thanks GB, I 've missed that but would like to see it.
but what is extremist!? ... glenn beck may be extremist to you but he is the gospel to soooooo many people ... this is the point i am trying to get across ... also, i think many think i am extremely on the left ... but i believe my views to be grounded in the reality i believe in ... hence my belief that you really need to get to the facts thru dialogue ... all i know is that if you think people are too set in their ways to hear anything than you've already dismissed any of their thoughts ... if you think that is a good approach - so be it ...
To me an extremist is somebody who is so wrapped up in an idea or way of thinking that they are beyond the point of having a rational conversation, seeing things in any other way, or allowing for a middle ground. Be it politics, religion, race, nationality, Star Wars vs. Star Trek, whatever. The last example it is nothing serious of course, but the point is somebody so wrapped up in what they think the right answer is, that there is no meeting them half way.
I realize that what is considered extreme or middle of the road, left or right, whatever, is all a matter of perception. While you say that your beliefs are based in fact, so do the people who believe the opposite. It's all a matter of which facts people pick and choose to fortify their own beliefs and pre-conceived notions. Some are dismissed for good reason, some not so much.
Many people, whether they realize it or not, create whatever narrative fits those ideals. A good example is the history of Christianity. Look at how throughout history people have taken the same book that is filled with lessons of love, tolerance and Thou Shall Not Kill, and used it to justify executions, wars, torture, intolerance, etc. They'll take this bit and use it, that bit doesn't fit, so that goes. And more often than not, do so thinking they are completely right in doing so. If one were so inclined they could completely re-write world history in whatever way they please through the inclusion/omission of certain facts. It's been done many times.
And to me that is the extremist mindset. Not so much if the so called "middle of the road" people think your ideas are radical, but the lengths people go to (be it consciously or not) fortify the narrative they think is truth, and also how open they are to hearing something that doesn't fit in with that belief system.
I don't dismiss these people's thoughts, but I do dismiss the merit of having an open dialog with them. I don't presume that I'm going to be able to tell them "the truth", or that I even know what that is. Or that if I were to know it, that they would listen. And if they are set in their ways, I don't really trust what they're saying without researching it later. Some people are set in their ways, and have spent so much time fortifying their own beliefs that they just aren't trying to hear anything to the contrary. Or other times the very nature of that belief system makes them feel bad for even listening to the opposition. Like religion. God will punish me for questioning my faith. Or with conspiracy theorists, a frame of mind that shuns facts, because that's what THEY want you to believe. You just can't talk to everybody, in my mind at least.
Here's a good example, then I'll shut up. I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine who recently found himself a little Jesus. It was a friendly conversation, and I wasn't trying to test his faith and talk him into leaving the church or anything like that, but having never been religious I had some questions. The bottom line was anything I asked, the answer came down to "because the Bible says so". Even when I asked how he knew the Bible was right, the answer was "because the Bible says so". Aside from me researching the Bible so that on the off chance I could find a passage that says "not everything in the Bible is 100% correct", there was really no point in continuing the conversation. And if you ever have a conversation with some REALLY HARDCORE Christians, they will say that all science that contradicts the Bible, be it dinosaur bones or whatever, was put on Earth by Satan to try and lead mankind astray. How do you have a conversation with that? You can't, it's closed.
If I choose not to talk to somebody, it's not because I think everything they say is bullshit, just that they have chosen what facts to believe and which to dismiss and created a narrative that they honestly believe. And I don't presume that I'm going to be able to get through that wall. Maybe I'm a bad person for that, but I don't have to talk to them to get their facts. If they are indeed facts they probably read them somewhere else and are using them out of context. I don't think it's all that crazy to not wish to talk to people that I already know have a bias. Or after talking to them for a little while and seeing their position, not wishing to continue. I will get the facts later from a more reputable source(s).
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
man brother the rules of debate on the train are all opinion when it comes to the current war and even past war's, many people on here talk about things that they really have no real truth or facts to back up their statements then they say things like "why does everybody hate the US ?" without thinking about all the things that bring us to this point or why,they like to talk about all the things that they call "bad" about the US but they really don't know why these bad things happen...they talk like they do and many are are really up on current events but the facts that lay behind the internet or T.V are hidden but they are all ready to blame the US for everything,to me it's like screaming and whining about how good we have it here in the US, you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history and today and not a well educated guess from someone who swears they're right and has internet article to back it up.
Godfather.
The Iraq war is a good example of a situation that you ask for in your last sentence. The "inside knoldge" (sic) been documented by those involved and fits under one of the "bad" things the U.S. has done. The war isn't justifiable.
[/quote][/quote]
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.[/quote]
cool, thanks GB, I 've missed that but would like to see it.
Godfather.[/quote]
You missed what?[/quote]
Hearing how unjustified the Iraq war was is fustrating. Saddam shot, poisoned and bombed thousands of people for no justifiable reason. We hung him from a rope, sounds pretty justifiable to me. I guess if it doesn't concern you it's not justified....right? All those people had families, wives, husbands, brothers, sisters or kids.
As for the topic of the thread. Alot of people hate our military, or complain about it. Never hear anyone complaining about warfare on our own soil though. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. JMO
To me an extremist is somebody who is so wrapped up in an idea or way of thinking that they are beyond the point of having a rational conversation, seeing things in any other way, or allowing for a middle ground. Be it politics, religion, race, nationality, Star Wars vs. Star Trek, whatever.
man brother the rules of debate on the train are all opinion when it comes to the current war and even past war's, many people on here talk about things that they really have no real truth or facts to back up their statements then they say things like "why does everybody hate the US ?" without thinking about all the things that bring us to this point or why,they like to talk about all the things that they call "bad" about the US but they really don't know why these bad things happen...they talk like they do and many are are really up on current events but the facts that lay behind the internet or T.V are hidden but they are all ready to blame the US for everything,to me it's like screaming and whining about how good we have it here in the US, you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history and today and not a well educated guess from someone who swears they're right and has internet article to back it up.
Godfather.
The Iraq war is a good example of a situation that you ask for in your last sentence. The "inside knoldge" (sic) been documented by those involved and fits under one of the "bad" things the U.S. has done. The war isn't justifiable.
[/quote]
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.[/quote]
cool, thanks GB, I 've missed that but would like to see it.
Godfather.[/quote]
You missed what?[/quote]
Hearing how unjustified the Iraq war was is fustrating. Saddam shot, poisoned and bombed thousands of people for no justifiable reason. We hung him from a rope, sounds pretty justifiable to me. I guess if it doesn't concern you it's not justified....right? All those people had families, wives, husbands, brothers, sisters or kids.
As for the topic of the thread. Alot of people hate our military, or complain about it. Never hear anyone complaining about warfare on our own soil though. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. JMO[/quote]
The "Saddam was a bad man" justification was used after we had invaded and there were no WMD's found. What I find concerning about dictators around the world is not justification for war. You're opening a huge can if you want to go after every murdering leader. It's frustrating for me to hear American's use hypocritical morality when trying to make the Iraq war okay.
No one's complained about war on our own soil, but just wait. We have our eyes on you, Canada!
I don't dismiss these people's thoughts, but I do dismiss the merit of having an open dialog with them. I don't presume that I'm going to be able to tell them "the truth", or that I even know what that is. Or that if I were to know it, that they would listen. And if they are set in their ways, I don't really trust what they're saying without researching it later. Some people are set in their ways, and have spent so much time fortifying their own beliefs that they just aren't trying to hear anything to the contrary. Or other times the very nature of that belief system makes them feel bad for even listening to the opposition. Like religion. God will punish me for questioning my faith. Or with conspiracy theorists, a frame of mind that shuns facts, because that's what THEY want you to believe. You just can't talk to everybody, in my mind at least.
this drawn out conversation started because you thought i was expressing an extremist view and that you dismissed my comments about ignorance amongst americans as standard hatred-fare ... all we've gotten out of the subsequent conversation is that you will continue to treat it as such ... which again - is your choice to make ... all i was trying to get across is that my comments are not based on an underlying hatred or necessarily extremist viewpoint ...
Hearing how unjustified the Iraq war was is fustrating. Saddam shot, poisoned and bombed thousands of people for no justifiable reason. We hung him from a rope, sounds pretty justifiable to me. I guess if it doesn't concern you it's not justified....right? All those people had families, wives, husbands, brothers, sisters or kids.
As for the topic of the thread. Alot of people hate our military, or complain about it. Never hear anyone complaining about warfare on our own soil though. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. JMO
are you kidding me!?? ... since gulf war 1 ... how many iraqi families have had to suffer from american bombs and nukes? ... how many mothers and fathers are dead? ... how many sons and daughters have birth defects?? ... if hanging saddam is justifiable in your eyes - you should then see that the murder of a million americans is also justifiable in someone else's eye ...
this is what i'm talking about satansfuton ... a war based solely on lies for war profiteering which has resulted in the loss and suffering of so many lives is justified amongst so many americans ... violence begets violence and it has and never will solve anything ...
this drawn out conversation started because you thought i was expressing an extremist view and that you dismissed my comments about ignorance amongst americans as standard hatred-fare ... all we've gotten out of the subsequent conversation is that you will continue to treat it as such ... which again - is your choice to make ... all i was trying to get across is that my comments are not based on an underlying hatred or necessarily extremist viewpoint ...
We'll have to agree to disagree, because it looks to me like you have a big problems with America, and Americans. Maybe not every single American, but Americans in general. And I shouldn't call it hatred, as it is a strong word, but we easily piss you off it would appear. And I think you choose to focus on the negative, choose to believe negative stories, and only discuss those stories because it fits in with what you already feel. Now I don't follow you around the message boards to see what all you write, or clicked on your profile to see what all you say, but every time I open a thread it's you talking shit.
I'm not saying you should go around posting nice things about the old U.S.A. And many of the things you post about are valid. I admit America fucks up, but I don't focus on it all the time. All countries fuck up, ours are the most noticeable, and often affect the most people, so I see what you're saying. But I think you should at least look at why you focus on those things. I think you enjoy seeing America fuck up, because it's more fuel on the fire of what you already feel. And I'm also not saying that you should NEVER talk about it, that would be wrong as hell, but try to relax and find a middle ground.
And excuse me if I thought your comments about Americans being ignorant was hateful. It wasn't very nice, that's for sure. And as I said, I don't discount everything you've said just because I think you have a chip on your shoulder about America. Your own beliefs don't make some of them any less true. But I do believe that your arguments as a whole are influenced by it. What you choose to believe, talk about, and how you go about discussing it.
If you really want an "open discussion" you might want to soften your stance. Do you expect to have a civilized conversation with an American on any subject when you say some of the things you do, and as often as you do?
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
What are you confused about? You asked who has the inside information. Maybe you're confused about who is confusing you. Do you think others have more "inside" information than who I listed?
To me an extremist is somebody who is so wrapped up in an idea or way of thinking that they are beyond the point of having a rational conversation, seeing things in any other way, or allowing for a middle ground. Be it politics, religion, race, nationality, Star Wars vs. Star Trek, whatever.
Comments
What would of been so sweet, so good! If you only used your time (with that reply) to address the issues, If only you put together a solid case for your argument. Rather you fell down the tired path wasting a post, throwing poorly contrived insults and using Nothing but blind conjecture. Speaking of things you know nothing about.
Brotha, All you had to do is post something with substance, even a half hearted reply would suffice. But you made the choice to rather make a post that fits the exact definition of ignorance, how easily you could've proven wrong the stereotype you so much dislike. Yet you did the opposite, you enforced it. You have only done yourself an injustice here.
soo ... really what you are saying is that if you deem a view to be extremist - you are going to ignore it even tho you may or may not actually be informed ... which is fair enough ... you can do whatever you want ... but you present no case that supports your opinion that the truth lies somewhere in the middle ...
i don't want to get into the examples as it'll essentially be another rant that will get many people's backs up ... but reality and truth are often clouded by our own perceptions ... the only way we're ever going to get to the truth is through open dialogue ...
man brother the rules of debate on the train are all opinion when it comes to the current war and even past war's, many people on here talk about things that they really have no real truth or facts to back up their statements then they say things like "why does everybody hate the US ?" without thinking about all the things that bring us to this point or why,they like to talk about all the things that they call "bad" about the US but they really don't know why these bad things happen...they talk like they do and many are are really up on current events but the facts that lay behind the internet or T.V are hidden but they are all ready to blame the US for everything,to me it's like screaming and whining about how good we have it here in the US, you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history and today and not a well educated guess from someone who swears they're right and has internet article to back it up.
Godfather.
The Iraq war is a good example of a situation that you ask for in your last sentence. The "inside knoldge" (sic) been documented by those involved and fits under one of the "bad" things the U.S. has done. The war isn't justifiable.
Sure, it's not all that radical of a concept. Do you ever listen to Rush Limbaugh, or watch Glen Beck? I know I don't, because I know it's going to be a lot of bullshit. I don't need to hear what they have to say, because I already know what it's going to be. I know some people who watch Glen because they find his stupidity hilarious, but half the time they end up getting pissed and turning it off.
I did give one example of a case where the truth lies in the middle, 9-11. I agree that open dialog is a good thing, but talking to people with extremist views is often like talking to a brick wall. Do you think you or I could actually sit down and have an intelligent discussion with Glen Beck? Well, maybe off the air, but when he is in his on-air personality, a personality that isn't all that different from some hard core right wingers, I don't think it would do any good.
As you said, the truth is clouded by our own perceptions. And people with extremist views, be they political or religious, got to be extremist by clinging to these perceptions. I just choose not to try and tangle with that. If you want to be the guy that goes around talking to Rush Limbaugh's acolytes all day, then I won't stop you. I wouldn't want to, and I wouldn't want to talk to their opposite number on the Left. As they are usually too set in their ways to hear anything you have to say.
Godfather.
but what is extremist!? ... glenn beck may be extremist to you but he is the gospel to soooooo many people ... this is the point i am trying to get across ... also, i think many think i am extremely on the left ... but i believe my views to be grounded in the reality i believe in ... hence my belief that you really need to get to the facts thru dialogue ... all i know is that if you think people are too set in their ways to hear anything than you've already dismissed any of their thoughts ... if you think that is a good approach - so be it ...
What an unfortunate time we live in, when 'facts' are considered 'opinions. Nevertheless Godfather, I feel that maybe, we will only be able to make progress if we can get to know more about one another.
I assure you, deep down, we want the same basic things. To be happy, live free. We do this using clear logic, good reasoning and a right understanding, right actions.
Don't trust me Godfather, don't even trust yourself, not until you gnōthi seauton! So you may raise your level of cognition.
At the very least try it...as you mentioned in your post " you know what would be cool ?...to have someone with real (inside) knoldge of the things that bring about wars and other political events in history"
When you learn who you are. The answers you seek will come. You will have the most inside of information, intimate knowledge as to "why". So Never stop seeking! Don't let others stop you from getting to the bottom of it, and most importantly, do not fall victim to the one thing we are all so susceptible to...Our egos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature Find it,
Perhaps today you will dismiss this as left wing, liberal comedy.
The Iraq war is a good example of a situation that you ask for in your last sentence. The "inside knoldge" (sic) been documented by those involved and fits under one of the "bad" things the U.S. has done. The war isn't justifiable.[/quote][/quote][/quote]
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.[/quote]
cool, thanks GB, I 've missed that but would like to see it.
Godfather.
The Iraq war is a good example of a situation that you ask for in your last sentence. The "inside knoldge" (sic) been documented by those involved and fits under one of the "bad" things the U.S. has done. The war isn't justifiable.[/quote][/quote][/quote]
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.[/quote]
cool, thanks GB, I 've missed that but would like to see it.
Godfather.[/quote]
You missed what?
At best, considering $119B is for the two wars, I don't believe we will ever see it dip under $600B for the rest of our lives.
To me an extremist is somebody who is so wrapped up in an idea or way of thinking that they are beyond the point of having a rational conversation, seeing things in any other way, or allowing for a middle ground. Be it politics, religion, race, nationality, Star Wars vs. Star Trek, whatever. The last example it is nothing serious of course, but the point is somebody so wrapped up in what they think the right answer is, that there is no meeting them half way.
I realize that what is considered extreme or middle of the road, left or right, whatever, is all a matter of perception. While you say that your beliefs are based in fact, so do the people who believe the opposite. It's all a matter of which facts people pick and choose to fortify their own beliefs and pre-conceived notions. Some are dismissed for good reason, some not so much.
Many people, whether they realize it or not, create whatever narrative fits those ideals. A good example is the history of Christianity. Look at how throughout history people have taken the same book that is filled with lessons of love, tolerance and Thou Shall Not Kill, and used it to justify executions, wars, torture, intolerance, etc. They'll take this bit and use it, that bit doesn't fit, so that goes. And more often than not, do so thinking they are completely right in doing so. If one were so inclined they could completely re-write world history in whatever way they please through the inclusion/omission of certain facts. It's been done many times.
And to me that is the extremist mindset. Not so much if the so called "middle of the road" people think your ideas are radical, but the lengths people go to (be it consciously or not) fortify the narrative they think is truth, and also how open they are to hearing something that doesn't fit in with that belief system.
I don't dismiss these people's thoughts, but I do dismiss the merit of having an open dialog with them. I don't presume that I'm going to be able to tell them "the truth", or that I even know what that is. Or that if I were to know it, that they would listen. And if they are set in their ways, I don't really trust what they're saying without researching it later. Some people are set in their ways, and have spent so much time fortifying their own beliefs that they just aren't trying to hear anything to the contrary. Or other times the very nature of that belief system makes them feel bad for even listening to the opposition. Like religion. God will punish me for questioning my faith. Or with conspiracy theorists, a frame of mind that shuns facts, because that's what THEY want you to believe. You just can't talk to everybody, in my mind at least.
Here's a good example, then I'll shut up. I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine who recently found himself a little Jesus. It was a friendly conversation, and I wasn't trying to test his faith and talk him into leaving the church or anything like that, but having never been religious I had some questions. The bottom line was anything I asked, the answer came down to "because the Bible says so". Even when I asked how he knew the Bible was right, the answer was "because the Bible says so". Aside from me researching the Bible so that on the off chance I could find a passage that says "not everything in the Bible is 100% correct", there was really no point in continuing the conversation. And if you ever have a conversation with some REALLY HARDCORE Christians, they will say that all science that contradicts the Bible, be it dinosaur bones or whatever, was put on Earth by Satan to try and lead mankind astray. How do you have a conversation with that? You can't, it's closed.
If I choose not to talk to somebody, it's not because I think everything they say is bullshit, just that they have chosen what facts to believe and which to dismiss and created a narrative that they honestly believe. And I don't presume that I'm going to be able to get through that wall. Maybe I'm a bad person for that, but I don't have to talk to them to get their facts. If they are indeed facts they probably read them somewhere else and are using them out of context. I don't think it's all that crazy to not wish to talk to people that I already know have a bias. Or after talking to them for a little while and seeing their position, not wishing to continue. I will get the facts later from a more reputable source(s).
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.[/quote]
cool, thanks GB, I 've missed that but would like to see it.
Godfather.[/quote]
You missed what?[/quote]
Hearing how unjustified the Iraq war was is fustrating. Saddam shot, poisoned and bombed thousands of people for no justifiable reason. We hung him from a rope, sounds pretty justifiable to me. I guess if it doesn't concern you it's not justified....right? All those people had families, wives, husbands, brothers, sisters or kids.
As for the topic of the thread. Alot of people hate our military, or complain about it. Never hear anyone complaining about warfare on our own soil though. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. JMO
You deleted your response, Godfather, but I'll respond to anyway. The insiders would include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, and Tenet, to name a few. They've all spoken to their motivations, ideology, and evidence (or lack thereof) that led up the the Gulf War.[/quote]
cool, thanks GB, I 've missed that but would like to see it.
Godfather.[/quote]
You missed what?[/quote]
Hearing how unjustified the Iraq war was is fustrating. Saddam shot, poisoned and bombed thousands of people for no justifiable reason. We hung him from a rope, sounds pretty justifiable to me. I guess if it doesn't concern you it's not justified....right? All those people had families, wives, husbands, brothers, sisters or kids.
As for the topic of the thread. Alot of people hate our military, or complain about it. Never hear anyone complaining about warfare on our own soil though. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. JMO[/quote]
The "Saddam was a bad man" justification was used after we had invaded and there were no WMD's found. What I find concerning about dictators around the world is not justification for war. You're opening a huge can if you want to go after every murdering leader. It's frustrating for me to hear American's use hypocritical morality when trying to make the Iraq war okay.
No one's complained about war on our own soil, but just wait. We have our eyes on you, Canada!
this drawn out conversation started because you thought i was expressing an extremist view and that you dismissed my comments about ignorance amongst americans as standard hatred-fare ... all we've gotten out of the subsequent conversation is that you will continue to treat it as such ... which again - is your choice to make ... all i was trying to get across is that my comments are not based on an underlying hatred or necessarily extremist viewpoint ...
Godfather.
are you kidding me!?? ... since gulf war 1 ... how many iraqi families have had to suffer from american bombs and nukes? ... how many mothers and fathers are dead? ... how many sons and daughters have birth defects?? ... if hanging saddam is justifiable in your eyes - you should then see that the murder of a million americans is also justifiable in someone else's eye ...
this is what i'm talking about satansfuton ... a war based solely on lies for war profiteering which has resulted in the loss and suffering of so many lives is justified amongst so many americans ... violence begets violence and it has and never will solve anything ...
Go Canucks! (I can't stand to see a Patriot's fan happy
We'll have to agree to disagree, because it looks to me like you have a big problems with America, and Americans. Maybe not every single American, but Americans in general. And I shouldn't call it hatred, as it is a strong word, but we easily piss you off it would appear. And I think you choose to focus on the negative, choose to believe negative stories, and only discuss those stories because it fits in with what you already feel. Now I don't follow you around the message boards to see what all you write, or clicked on your profile to see what all you say, but every time I open a thread it's you talking shit.
I'm not saying you should go around posting nice things about the old U.S.A. And many of the things you post about are valid. I admit America fucks up, but I don't focus on it all the time. All countries fuck up, ours are the most noticeable, and often affect the most people, so I see what you're saying. But I think you should at least look at why you focus on those things. I think you enjoy seeing America fuck up, because it's more fuel on the fire of what you already feel. And I'm also not saying that you should NEVER talk about it, that would be wrong as hell, but try to relax and find a middle ground.
And excuse me if I thought your comments about Americans being ignorant was hateful. It wasn't very nice, that's for sure. And as I said, I don't discount everything you've said just because I think you have a chip on your shoulder about America. Your own beliefs don't make some of them any less true. But I do believe that your arguments as a whole are influenced by it. What you choose to believe, talk about, and how you go about discussing it.
If you really want an "open discussion" you might want to soften your stance. Do you expect to have a civilized conversation with an American on any subject when you say some of the things you do, and as often as you do?
What are you confused about? You asked who has the inside information. Maybe you're confused about who is confusing you. Do you think others have more "inside" information than who I listed?
Dont Start J, i'll pwned u.