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political suicide ?

Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
edited June 2011 in A Moving Train
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05 ... nt-praise/


Obama: Palestinian State Must Be Based on 1967 Borders


great ! now what ?....another war ?...maybe.

Godfather.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    A tough statement to make for a U.S. President. Loss of support from American Jews is surely coming.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    whygohome wrote:
    A tough statement to make for a U.S. President. Loss of support from American Jews is surely coming.

    Not all American Jews support Israel's criminal land grab and ethnic cleansing.
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    Byrnzie wrote:
    whygohome wrote:
    A tough statement to make for a U.S. President. Loss of support from American Jews is surely coming.

    Not all American Jews support Israel's criminal land grab and ethnic cleansing.

    Agreed, but he will still lose some support. Also, a majority of the American Jews have no clue as to what is going on in "their homeland."
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    why is nobama sticking his nose into that anyway ? is to drive away an alie ?
    he must not want a second term,I think the people are a little tired of war as it is.
    the goofball just scores some brownie points for the bin laden job and now he does this...
    maybe the story will be different on another news source but this one sure sounds ugly.
    is this that change he was talking about. :lol:

    Godfather.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Maybe he realises that, with everything that is happening in the Middle East (and a possible democratic outcome that will not be to everyone's 'taste'), it can no longer be 'business as usual' with Israel.

    I'm hoping he will actually stick to his guns.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Godfather. wrote:
    why is nobama sticking his nose into that anyway ? is to drive away an alie ?
    he must not want a second term,I think the people are a little tired of war as it is.
    the goofball just scores some brownie points for the bin laden job and now he does this...
    maybe the story will be different on another news source but this one sure sounds ugly.
    is this that change he was talking about. :lol:

    Godfather.

    Why is it ugly to ask Israel to abide by international law and the will of the whole of the international community?
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    i hope he sticks to his guns as well, but we all know that this is just lip service. he said what needed to be said. no matter what he does the republicans and tea partiers are going to oppose him, so it is not political suicide. it is hard to commit political suicide when there is an entire segment of the population opposes you if you say the sky is blue...

    he just needs to stick to his guns. but the bigger thing to me is action, and i find it curious that a few months ago we gave israel 3.5 billion dollars in military aid. if he put his money where his mouth is he would have at least cut that dollar amount instead of raising it like he did.

    as far as war goes, why would we attempt to take on the best air force in the world after being mired in combat for the last 9.5 years?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    why is nobama sticking his nose into that anyway ? is to drive away an alie ?
    he must not want a second term,I think the people are a little tired of war as it is.
    the goofball just scores some brownie points for the bin laden job and now he does this...
    maybe the story will be different on another news source but this one sure sounds ugly.
    is this that change he was talking about. :lol:

    Godfather.

    Why is it ugly to ask Israel to abide by international law and the will of the whole of the international community?

    you know as well as anyone the history of war as way of life in the middle east, it will never end.
    besides I was talking about his political career, I thought Isreal was an alie ?
    after reading all the end the war stuff here on the train now you guys are hopping he sticks to his guns..does that mean to go as far as a war with isreal ? we can never beat them for the long term to make them give up any land if you can't see that I don't know how to explain it.

    Godfather.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    the united states has used it's veto power to veto anything remotely critical of the israeli government and its policies on numerous occasions. even when every other country votes in favor of a resolution we veto it, essentially telling the rest of the world to go fuck themselves. it is not right that israel can continue to do whatever it wants to do knowing that we will veto any measures to sanction or condemn israel. it would be a good start for the world to know that we are not going to automatically use that veto power in the future. until obama makes that his policy, the speech today is not worth the paper on which it was written.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    A few thoughts:

    Godfather, I don't know where you're getting this idea that anything in this speech is so offensive to Israel. Certainly no one is going to war over this. In fact there is nothing new here at all. This is basically exactly the same thing that the US, Israel, and the Palestinians have been talking about for the last decade at least. Look at what was being negotiated at camp david in 2001 and you'll see that the parameters were exactly what Obama is talking about, namely the '67 borders with minor agreed upon land swaps.

    As for Obama losing support from American Jews it's not gonna happen, mostly for the same reason I just discussed, plus the fact that most American Jews are pretty liberal and overwhelmingly supportive of Obama.

    Whygohome, I'm not saying you're wrong per se, but how could you possibly know something like that? I'm an American Jew and I know exactly what's going on in my homeland, as do pretty much all my American Jewish friends. Granted not everyone is like me, and maybe "most" aren't, but that's a pretty broad statement you're making.

    Byrnzie, I don't expect you to change your views, but in light of the recent discussions on the train about being nicer in debates maybe you could tone it down a bit. I, for one, find the whole "Israel is a racist, colonialist, imperialist, ethnic cleansing, seal clubbing, puppy throttling, Nazi criminal state" thing to be just a little not nice, to say the least.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Godfather. wrote:
    why is nobama sticking his nose into that anyway ?
    Godfather.
    Hasn't every president since WWII been sticking their nose in Israel by providing them with weapons?
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Actually the US didn't start sending weapons to Israel until after the 1973 war. Before that Israel got most of its weapons from France.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    yosi wrote:
    A few thoughts:

    Godfather, I don't know where you're getting this idea that anything in this speech is so offensive to Israel. Certainly no one is going to war over this. In fact there is nothing new here at all. This is basically exactly the same thing that the US, Israel, and the Palestinians have been talking about for the last decade at least. Look at what was being negotiated at camp david in 2001 and you'll see that the parameters were exactly what Obama is talking about, namely the '67 borders with minor agreed upon land swaps.

    As for Obama losing support from American Jews it's not gonna happen, mostly for the same reason I just discussed, plus the fact that most American Jews are pretty liberal and overwhelmingly supportive of Obama.

    Whygohome, I'm not saying you're wrong per se, but how could you possibly know something like that? I'm an American Jew and I know exactly what's going on in my homeland, as do pretty much all my American Jewish friends. Granted not everyone is like me, and maybe "most" aren't, but that's a pretty broad statement you're making.

    Byrnzie, I don't expect you to change your views, but in light of the recent discussions on the train about being nicer in debates maybe you could tone it down a bit. I, for one, find the whole "Israel is a racist, colonialist, imperialist, ethnic cleansing, seal clubbing, puppy throttling, Nazi criminal state" thing to be just a little not nice, to say the least.

    Yosi I'm glad you chimmed in thanks for setting it straight, I will admit my thoughts on this are part paranoia
    and I don't have the understanding you have of all this for sure.....so from here on out I'll just read. :mrgreen:

    Godfather.
  • MariamaniatisMariamaniatis Posts: 90
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    why is nobama sticking his nose into that anyway ? is to drive away an alie ?
    he must not want a second term,I think the people are a little tired of war as it is.
    the goofball just scores some brownie points for the bin laden job and now he does this...
    maybe the story will be different on another news source but this one sure sounds ugly.
    is this that change he was talking about. :lol:

    Godfather.

    Why is it ugly to ask Israel to abide by international law and the will of the whole of the international community?

    Here it comes. Byrnzie to Israel thread like flies on shit. Shocker!
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    keeponrockin wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    why is nobama sticking his nose into that anyway ?
    Godfather.
    Hasn't every president since WWII been sticking their nose in Israel by providing them with weapons?

    probably, but my point was that he just scored points with the bin laden thing then to a guy like me it just seemed like he was inviting war again or still.

    Godfather.
  • MariamaniatisMariamaniatis Posts: 90
    yosi wrote:
    A few thoughts:

    Godfather, I don't know where you're getting this idea that anything in this speech is so offensive to Israel. Certainly no one is going to war over this. In fact there is nothing new here at all. This is basically exactly the same thing that the US, Israel, and the Palestinians have been talking about for the last decade at least. Look at what was being negotiated at camp david in 2001 and you'll see that the parameters were exactly what Obama is talking about, namely the '67 borders with minor agreed upon land swaps.

    As for Obama losing support from American Jews it's not gonna happen, mostly for the same reason I just discussed, plus the fact that most American Jews are pretty liberal and overwhelmingly supportive of Obama.

    Whygohome, I'm not saying you're wrong per se, but how could you possibly know something like that? I'm an American Jew and I know exactly what's going on in my homeland, as do pretty much all my American Jewish friends. Granted not everyone is like me, and maybe "most" aren't, but that's a pretty broad statement you're making.

    Byrnzie, I don't expect you to change your views, but in light of the recent discussions on the train about being nicer in debates maybe you could tone it down a bit. I, for one, find the whole "Israel is a racist, colonialist, imperialist, ethnic cleansing, seal clubbing, puppy throttling, Nazi criminal state" thing to be just a little not nice, to say the least.

    He doenst care. He as a form of Israel Turret's Syndrome. Oh but dont you dare suggest hes anti semitic...So out of left field to make such a suggestion...
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    yosi wrote:
    A few thoughts:



    Whygohome, I'm not saying you're wrong per se, but how could you possibly know something like that? I'm an American Jew and I know exactly what's going on in my homeland, as do pretty much all my American Jewish friends. Granted not everyone is like me, and maybe "most" aren't, but that's a pretty broad statement you're making.

    You just agreed with me. Most people lack knowledge about everything. So, as WE both said, most American Jews--the majority--are not engaged in the affairs of Israel. It is the same as saying most Americans are not engaged in the domestic/social affairs of American society.

    To all: Isn't it true though, that Palestine has rejected plans that are similar to this? 2001, 2008? Now of course we do not know the fine print of past proposals, but it seems that this type of solution is being beaten to death.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jan/03/israel2


    And now Israel is rejecting the 1967 Borders solution:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110519/pl ... anspeaceus
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Perhaps. The difference is that for a large percentage of American Jews Israel is a central element in their identity, and therefore a subject about which they have a vested interest in being informed. This is somewhat different from the case of Americans and America because they don't need to spend time studying the affairs of the country to feel connected to it; the feeling of connection comes from just living in America.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Netanyahu's rejection doesn't really strike me as a rejection. True, he "rejects" a return to the '67 borders, but Obama isn't suggesting a return to the '67 borders, he's suggesting a return to the '67 borders with agreed upon land swaps. Seems to me that Netanyahu is taking a hard line as a negotiating position ahead of his Washington trip with an eye towards trying to ensure that such "agreed upon land swaps" will be as advantageous to Israel as possible.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • MariamaniatisMariamaniatis Posts: 90
    whygohome wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    A few thoughts:



    Whygohome, I'm not saying you're wrong per se, but how could you possibly know something like that? I'm an American Jew and I know exactly what's going on in my homeland, as do pretty much all my American Jewish friends. Granted not everyone is like me, and maybe "most" aren't, but that's a pretty broad statement you're making.

    You just agreed with me. Most people lack knowledge about everything. So, as WE both said, most American Jews--the majority--are not engaged in the affairs of Israel. It is the same as saying most Americans are not engaged in the domestic/social affairs of American society.

    To all: Isn't it true though, that Palestine has rejected plans that are similar to this? 2001, 2008? Now of course we do not know the fine print of past proposals, but it seems that this type of solution is being beaten to death.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jan/03/israel2


    And now Israel is rejecting the 1967 Borders solution:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110519/pl ... anspeaceus

    This is a smart political move by Obama, seizing on the Arab Spring immediately after his victory in capping Bin Laden. I expected it. Obama knows Israel wont go back to the 67 borders but its a pretty basic tenet in negotiating, especially when dealing with Israelis and Arabs, to ask for more than you think you can get. Ever done business with someone from the Middle East? Never ask for what you really want, you will always get less.

    Israel will not give up the Golan especially with an unsettled Syria. Its high ground that the Syrians used right up until 1973 to literally pepper Israeli towns with Artillery fire. But I think everything else may be open for discussion.
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    yosi wrote:
    Perhaps. The difference is that for a large percentage of American Jews Israel is a central element in their identity, and therefore a subject about which they have a vested interest in being informed. This is somewhat different from the case of Americans and America because they don't need to spend time studying the affairs of the country to feel connected to it; the feeling of connection comes from just living in America.

    Okay. Well put, but those engaged are still in the minority.
    And, most people are, in my opinion, oblivious.
    :mrgreen:
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Look at what was being negotiated at camp david in 2001 and you'll see that the parameters were exactly what Obama is talking about, namely the '67 borders with minor agreed upon land swaps.


    Except that's not what Israel agreed to at Camp David, as you know.


    yosi wrote:
    Byrnzie, I don't expect you to change your views, but in light of the recent discussions on the train about being nicer in debates maybe you could tone it down a bit. I, for one, find the whole "Israel is a racist, colonialist, imperialist, ethnic cleansing, seal clubbing, puppy throttling, Nazi criminal state" thing to be just a little not nice, to say the least.


    I simply said Israel is an aggressive Apartheid state, which it is, under the accepted definition of these terms.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2011
    Mariamaniatis wrote:
    Here it comes. Byrnzie to Israel thread like flies on shit. Shocker!

    Funny you should say that seeing as every single one of your 79 posts on the board so far has been about Israel. But then I suppose if we count all the Israel posts you made under your previous five of six usernames then they would amount to a lot more.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Netanyahu's rejection doesn't really strike me as a rejection. True, he "rejects" a return to the '67 borders, but Obama isn't suggesting a return to the '67 borders, he's suggesting a return to the '67 borders with agreed upon land swaps. Seems to me that Netanyahu is taking a hard line as a negotiating position ahead of his Washington trip with an eye towards trying to ensure that such "agreed upon land swaps" will be as advantageous to Israel as possible.

    Do you not think that considering that under international law aquisition of territory by force is illegal, then it should be Israel that makes the majority of concessions, and not the Palestinians?

    You see, this isn't a case of what Israel wants, but it's more a case of what Israel is entitled to under international law.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    By the way, why are there two threads on this identical subject?
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    yosi wrote:
    Actually the US didn't start sending weapons to Israel until after the 1973 war. Before that Israel got most of its weapons from France.
    Did not know that!

    Alright, every president since 73?
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Byrnzie, don't tell me what I "know." It's a sleazy way for you to imply that you are right and that I'm a liar. I know what I know, thank you very much, and one thing I know is that just because Chomsky, Finkelstein, et al say something doesn't make it true. In any event none of the people you sight were actually at camp david. All the people who actually WERE there attest that Israel offered essentially the '67 borders with modifications, which is, again, what Obama is talking about.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Byrnzie, don't tell me what I "know." It's a sleazy way for you to imply that you are right and that I'm a liar. I know what I know, thank you very much, and one thing I know is that just because Chomsky, Finkelstein, et al say something doesn't make it true. In any event none of the people you sight were actually at camp david. All the people who actually WERE there attest that Israel offered essentially the '67 borders with modifications, which is, again, what Obama is talking about.

    But this just isn't true. They didn't offer 'essentially the '67 borders', and any honest person who looks at a map of what was offered can see that. The map looks like Swiss cheese. It was an offer based on the South African bantustan system, as supported by Ariel Sharon - http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/fe ... pe-1.10275
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    There's no map in that link. In any event I've seen the sorts of maps you're referencing, and they represent preliminary ideas put forward by the Israeli camp, NOT Israel's final offer, which was again, based on the '67 lines with minor swaps. You know this. :D
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    There's no map in that link.

    I didn't say there was.


    yosi wrote:
    In any event I've seen the sorts of maps you're referencing, and they represent preliminary ideas put forward by the Israeli camp, NOT Israel's final offer, which was again, based on the '67 lines with minor swaps. You know this. :D

    No, not minor swaps. Here's the map: http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/albu ... id2000.gif

    No minor swaps evident here, just series of Apartheid-style bantustans.
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