my cynicism tells me that he is not going to be hardline because he has been lukewarm and milquetoast about everything else up until this point. why would he grow a backbone for this issue? it is encouraging to know that he has apparently broken with the policies of the last few presidents, or at least says he has the desire to break with those policies......we shall see i guess...
and my guess is there will be much laughter to obama's face during his meeting with mr netanyahu tomorrow..
someone posted a link earlier that had netanyahu saying something like "he just doesn't get it" referring to what obama was saying...
If he threatened to cut the funding, as Unsung suggested earlier, then maybe that will put the squeeze on Netanyahu.
i doubt that very much. i think if netanyahu knew that we were not going to arbitrarily use our veto power in the UN that might put the squeeze on him. funding can come from any number of sources, however, veto power at the UN is priceless. and any sanctions or condemnation would hurt netanyahu's position or policies more than him losing a measly $4 billion in military equipment...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
i doubt that very much. i think if netanyahu knew that we were not going to arbitrarily use our veto power in the UN that might put the squeeze on him. funding can come from any number of sources, however, veto power at the UN is priceless. and any sanctions or condemnation would hurt netanyahu's position or policies more than him losing a measly $4 billion in military equipment...
HOLY CRAP! the world must really be ending in 2 days...either that or this is bizzarro world...lindsey graham actually supports obama's position on the israel-palestine situation and said "he did a really good job"...
Obama's Middle East Speech Draws GOP Support, Condemnation
I don't have the patience to go back looking for specific posts, but, for example, a classic antisemitic trope is that the Jews control the media. Another is that the Jews control finance. Another is that the Jews are secretly controlling world governments. Everyone of these tropes has appeared on this board multiple times, only instead of "Jews" people talk about "Israel" (although there have been times where even that flimsy veneer has fallen aside). So...Israel controls the media, or Israel controls the US government, or Israel controls finance, etc.
There's this idea that if someone is talking about "Israel" instead of "Jews" that it CAN'T be antisemitism. That's just childish. Criticism of Israel is fine, but it is at this point a very well attested to phenomenon that antisemitism now very often goes disguised as "antizionism."
You won't look for specific examples because there are none.
I've NEVER seen anyone say any of those things on this board.
Jews control the media? No. Never. Negative posts about the influence of the Israeli lobby on the media? Of course.
Jews control world events? I've never read a statement like that either...I have read a lot of talk of Israel's influence in the US, and by proxy the UN...
Jews control finance? what? really? man, what board are you reading? I've never seen anything phrased even remotely like that. If it's mentioned that some bankster is Jewish (which I can't even recall seeing, but to use as an example), is it that different from any other negative stereotype comment anywhere else on the board that is greeted with a :roll: and the thread moves on? Are you that sensitive? go look at any thread about Christianity or Islam and you'll see the same thing. Negative stereotypes, but the mods do a good job of keeping any blatantly hateful statements like you imply are being made off the board....they would be locked, period. Stop exaggerating.
Believe what you want, but maybe try to take a step back and really look at what is written in threads about Israel.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Believe what you want, but maybe try to take a step back and really look at what is written in threads about Israel.
Most people on this board are opposed to the occupation. They see the constant twisting of the truth, and the outright lies, coming from Israel and the U.S, coupled with frequent Israeli aggression against it's neighbours, and they would like to see it end - along with the majority of the rest of the world.
Then we have people like yourself who come on here and accuse these people of being anti-Semitic Nazi sympathizers.
But then, when you don't have the truth on your side, I suppose crying 'anti-Semitism' is all you have left up your sleeve.
Edit: Whoops...I forgot to mention 'nuance'. When things don't go your way, you can also accuse your opponent of not appreciating 'nuance'.
Please stop being so fucking self-rightous. I also oppose the occupation, I just don't understand the situation as simplistically as you.
And you're proving my point about people always turning around the antisemitism thing and making it about "trying to shut down dissent." Like I said, that is a discussion that this forum does not seem capable of holding honestly. In any event, I'm more than capable of arguing the points, as you know, so please stop this pathetic bullshit about people crying antisemitism cause they have no real arrows in their quiver.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
And you're proving my point about people always turning around the antisemitism thing and making it about "trying to shut down dissent." Like I said, that is a discussion that this forum does not seem capable of holding honestly. In any event, I'm more than capable of arguing the points, as you know, so please stop this pathetic bullshit about people crying antisemitism cause they have no real arrows in their quiver.
It's not bullshit. You throw the anti-Semitism card around all the time, and quite frankly I think it's fucking dispicable. But I normally choose to ignore it.
Anyway, far be it for me to get in the way of your little temper tantrum.
Seems like Obama's really thrown a fox in amongst the chickens on this issue!
HOLY CRAP! the world must really be ending in 2 days...either that or this is bizzarro world...lindsey graham actually supports obama's position on the israel-palestine situation and said "he did a really good job"...
Obama's Middle East Speech Draws GOP Support, Condemnation
'Graham, who has traveled extensively in the Middle East, said he thought Obama made two mistakes in his speech, however. The first was talking about Israeli settlements, and the second was focusing on border issues without addressing the overall complexity of Israel-Palestine negotiations.'
Oh please, do you even read what I post? I agree with everything Obama said. And yes, I'm not afraid of nuance. The fact that you so clearly ARE speaks volumes.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
It really makes me sad that certain people feel the need to constantly derail reasonable debate and discussion with insults and threats. To be honest, it's making me want to do what I've done before & just get off the Train for a while. Some discussions just get too childish.
Before this thread gets locked, I have one comment to make on the issue. I know it's been made countless times before, and some people will choose to ignore it, but it doesn't make it any less true.
Criticising Jews based on stereotypes of their Jewishness is antisemitic, and is inexcusable.
Criticising a nation-state for violating human rights (regardless of the predominant religion of that state) is not anti-semitic.
Unless those people who criticise Israeli foreign policy do so on the basis of Israel's Judaism - and there is not a single instance of that, on this thread at least - then it is simplistic, dishonest, untrue, hateful and slanderous to call them anti-semitic.
That's all.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
A valid point, and I agree that antisemitism shouldn't be thrown around lightly. That said, I think there's more to the issue. If people single out Israel for harsh criticism, holding the state to a higher standard than they do other countries I think it's fair game to question the motives at work. Furthermore, most antisemites these days are sophisticated enough not to say simply "Israel is bad because it's full of Jews!" I don't think it's too much to ask that people be aware that discussions of Israel can veer into ugly corners.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
A valid point, and I agree that antisemitism shouldn't be thrown around lightly. That said, I think there's more to the issue. If people single out Israel for harsh criticism, holding the state to a higher standard than they do other countries I think it's fair game to question the motives at work. Furthermore, most antisemites these days are sophisticated enough not to say simply "Israel is bad because it's full of Jews!" I don't think it's too much to ask that people be aware that discussions of Israel can veer into ugly corners.
It is fair game to question - you're right. It is not fair game to make false assumptions and accusations. It is because people do exactly that that the discussion so often does - always needlessly - veer into those ugly corners.
The fact of the matter is, I personally know a lot of people who take serious moral issue with Israel' s actions with regard to Palestine. And I would have no difficulty or doubt in saying that not a single one of those people do I believe to be anti-semitic in their motives. In my experience, the reason why Israel is generally held to a higher standard of scrutiny is because it behaves with impunity (largely due to it's relationship with the US), because it frequently operates on a double standard, and appears to get away with violations of international law that other countries would not. Again, it is, in my experience, a valid criticism unrelated to religion and therefore not due in any way to anti-semitism.
No doubt there are those who are anti-semitic in their motives, and no doubt you are right that most anti-semites will not broadcast the fact openly. But it is a serious misjudgment to make the default assumption that all - or even most - who criticise Israel's actions do so for anti-semitic motives. It's an assumption and accusation that those of us who do criticise from purely humanist motives (the vast majority, in my experience) rightly find deeply insulting and offensive.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
All fair points, and I'm not suggesting that the majority of Israel's critics are antisemites, nor do I assume that criticism of Israel is, by default, inspired by questionable motives. I have, however, over the course of a few years following this board come to feel that discussions of Israel here can veer very close to antisemitism (if not actually crossing the line).
To be clear, I distinguish between antisemitism and antisemites insofar as it is possible to say something antisemitic without realizing the hateful implications of the statement. There are a lot of ideas floating around the web, and people with good intentions can pick up an idea without fully understanding where it comes from, and what its implications are.
Frankly, I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that one might find antisemitic ideas floating around a forum rife with paranoid conspiracy theories (antisemitism does, after all, tend to go hand-in-hand with other paranoid conspiracies, since it is, itself, a form of paranoid conspiracy).
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
All fair points, and I'm not suggesting that the majority of Israel's critics are antisemites, nor do I assume that criticism of Israel is, by default, inspired by questionable motives. I have, however, over the course of a few years following this board come to feel that discussions of Israel here can veer very close to antisemitism (if not actually crossing the line).
To be clear, I distinguish between antisemitism and antisemites insofar as it is possible to say something antisemitic without realizing the hateful implications of the statement. There are a lot of ideas floating around the web, and people with good intentions can pick up an idea without fully understanding where it comes from, and what its implications are.
Frankly, I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that one might find antisemitic ideas floating around a forum rife with paranoid conspiracy theories (antisemitism does, after all, tend to go hand-in-hand with other paranoid conspiracies, since it is, itself, a form of paranoid conspiracy).
...which is fine - where it's relevant. It was not relevant here, and having read back over this thread twice, I can find nowhere anything that comes close to being anti-semitic, before accusations of antisemitism started flying, and dragged what should have been a reasonable discussion around one of those ugly corners.
I'm happy at this point to say that both sides of the issue have been aired, and that whole sideline discussion should now be shelved. I think the thread needs to get back on topic.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
All fair points, and I'm not suggesting that the majority of Israel's critics are antisemites, nor do I assume that criticism of Israel is, by default, inspired by questionable motives. I have, however, over the course of a few years following this board come to feel that discussions of Israel here can veer very close to antisemitism (if not actually crossing the line).
To be clear, I distinguish between antisemitism and antisemites insofar as it is possible to say something antisemitic without realizing the hateful implications of the statement. There are a lot of ideas floating around the web, and people with good intentions can pick up an idea without fully understanding where it comes from, and what its implications are.
Frankly, I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that one might find antisemitic ideas floating around a forum rife with paranoid conspiracy theories (antisemitism does, after all, tend to go hand-in-hand with other paranoid conspiracies, since it is, itself, a form of paranoid conspiracy).
Maybe you just need to be able to differentiate anger from anti-Semitism. I for one get angry when I read about/debate this issue, not even so much because of all the suffering being inflicted in that part of the world, but because of the massive propaganda machine that surrounds this issue, and the huge level of subterfuge and dishonesty that's constantly used to try and shield Israel's crimes from the world. I don't think there's any other conflict in human history that has been supported by so much cynicism and deceit as this one. And this get's my tail up. Does that mean I'm ant-Semitic? Fuck no.
It would take so much time to clean up this thread that it would be better to begin the topic again on a new thread so it's ok to do that. Please do not allow it to be derailed again with personal attacks and harassment. Just stick to "Obama Pledges Support For '67 Borders" and if there is a problem, use the Report To Mod feature or a quick PM (which also notified us by email) so we can zero in on the problem. Things are very busy right now and this would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Added: And after contacting Yosi about his posted accusation that we allow anti-semitism on the board, insinuating that we are anti-semite, he suggested the posting of his private message in reply to a PM because this thread is locked. I'll add here that the Posting Guidelines apply to everyone and if there is blatant bigotry on the forums, it's only that we haven't spotted it yet. Report it to us and we'll zero in on it because it's never ok. Subtleties are another matter but pointing them out is ok. It'll be a judgment call depending on the level of comment. Sensitivity when debating with others is required...a sledgehammer will not change minds or inform. Thanks everyone.
yosi wrote in PM:
Point taken. I didn't mean to imply that I think you're an antisemite, or that you knowingly tolerate antisemitism. My feeling is that things are often said on the board that cross the line in a subtle manner, and therefore fly under the radar. I have no doubt that if you were made aware of troublesome comments that you'd deal with them appropriately. I'll be sure to point such comments out in the future.
Comments
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
True.
Obama's Middle East Speech Draws GOP Support, Condemnation
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/1 ... 64455.html
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Believe what you want, but maybe try to take a step back and really look at what is written in threads about Israel.
Most people on this board are opposed to the occupation. They see the constant twisting of the truth, and the outright lies, coming from Israel and the U.S, coupled with frequent Israeli aggression against it's neighbours, and they would like to see it end - along with the majority of the rest of the world.
Then we have people like yourself who come on here and accuse these people of being anti-Semitic Nazi sympathizers.
But then, when you don't have the truth on your side, I suppose crying 'anti-Semitism' is all you have left up your sleeve.
Edit: Whoops...I forgot to mention 'nuance'. When things don't go your way, you can also accuse your opponent of not appreciating 'nuance'.
And you're proving my point about people always turning around the antisemitism thing and making it about "trying to shut down dissent." Like I said, that is a discussion that this forum does not seem capable of holding honestly. In any event, I'm more than capable of arguing the points, as you know, so please stop this pathetic bullshit about people crying antisemitism cause they have no real arrows in their quiver.
There ya go...that good ole 'nuance' again!
It's not bullshit. You throw the anti-Semitism card around all the time, and quite frankly I think it's fucking dispicable. But I normally choose to ignore it.
Anyway, far be it for me to get in the way of your little temper tantrum.
Seems like Obama's really thrown a fox in amongst the chickens on this issue!
The article also states the following:
'Graham, who has traveled extensively in the Middle East, said he thought Obama made two mistakes in his speech, however. The first was talking about Israeli settlements, and the second was focusing on border issues without addressing the overall complexity of Israel-Palestine negotiations.'
Before this thread gets locked, I have one comment to make on the issue. I know it's been made countless times before, and some people will choose to ignore it, but it doesn't make it any less true.
Criticising Jews based on stereotypes of their Jewishness is antisemitic, and is inexcusable.
Criticising a nation-state for violating human rights (regardless of the predominant religion of that state) is not anti-semitic.
Unless those people who criticise Israeli foreign policy do so on the basis of Israel's Judaism - and there is not a single instance of that, on this thread at least - then it is simplistic, dishonest, untrue, hateful and slanderous to call them anti-semitic.
That's all.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
It is fair game to question - you're right. It is not fair game to make false assumptions and accusations. It is because people do exactly that that the discussion so often does - always needlessly - veer into those ugly corners.
The fact of the matter is, I personally know a lot of people who take serious moral issue with Israel' s actions with regard to Palestine. And I would have no difficulty or doubt in saying that not a single one of those people do I believe to be anti-semitic in their motives. In my experience, the reason why Israel is generally held to a higher standard of scrutiny is because it behaves with impunity (largely due to it's relationship with the US), because it frequently operates on a double standard, and appears to get away with violations of international law that other countries would not. Again, it is, in my experience, a valid criticism unrelated to religion and therefore not due in any way to anti-semitism.
No doubt there are those who are anti-semitic in their motives, and no doubt you are right that most anti-semites will not broadcast the fact openly. But it is a serious misjudgment to make the default assumption that all - or even most - who criticise Israel's actions do so for anti-semitic motives. It's an assumption and accusation that those of us who do criticise from purely humanist motives (the vast majority, in my experience) rightly find deeply insulting and offensive.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
To be clear, I distinguish between antisemitism and antisemites insofar as it is possible to say something antisemitic without realizing the hateful implications of the statement. There are a lot of ideas floating around the web, and people with good intentions can pick up an idea without fully understanding where it comes from, and what its implications are.
Frankly, I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that one might find antisemitic ideas floating around a forum rife with paranoid conspiracy theories (antisemitism does, after all, tend to go hand-in-hand with other paranoid conspiracies, since it is, itself, a form of paranoid conspiracy).
...which is fine - where it's relevant. It was not relevant here, and having read back over this thread twice, I can find nowhere anything that comes close to being anti-semitic, before accusations of antisemitism started flying, and dragged what should have been a reasonable discussion around one of those ugly corners.
I'm happy at this point to say that both sides of the issue have been aired, and that whole sideline discussion should now be shelved. I think the thread needs to get back on topic.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
when asked,"what would you do to solve the problems between isreal and its "neighbors".
gene said to some level..."consider them independent countries, then when they attack isreal, it will be an act of war."
Maybe you just need to be able to differentiate anger from anti-Semitism. I for one get angry when I read about/debate this issue, not even so much because of all the suffering being inflicted in that part of the world, but because of the massive propaganda machine that surrounds this issue, and the huge level of subterfuge and dishonesty that's constantly used to try and shield Israel's crimes from the world. I don't think there's any other conflict in human history that has been supported by so much cynicism and deceit as this one. And this get's my tail up. Does that mean I'm ant-Semitic? Fuck no.
Except they're not independent countries. Israel is an occupying force that refuses to recognise Palestine and reject violence.
Thank you.
Added: And after contacting Yosi about his posted accusation that we allow anti-semitism on the board, insinuating that we are anti-semite, he suggested the posting of his private message in reply to a PM because this thread is locked. I'll add here that the Posting Guidelines apply to everyone and if there is blatant bigotry on the forums, it's only that we haven't spotted it yet. Report it to us and we'll zero in on it because it's never ok. Subtleties are another matter but pointing them out is ok. It'll be a judgment call depending on the level of comment. Sensitivity when debating with others is required...a sledgehammer will not change minds or inform. Thanks everyone.
yosi wrote in PM:
Point taken. I didn't mean to imply that I think you're an antisemite, or that you knowingly tolerate antisemitism. My feeling is that things are often said on the board that cross the line in a subtle manner, and therefore fly under the radar. I have no doubt that if you were made aware of troublesome comments that you'd deal with them appropriately. I'll be sure to point such comments out in the future.